Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
Whateveeeer. How can you say that human values are more important than human ideals? They're essentially the same thing. It all boils down to: The world is cruel, you can get away with being an asshole. And then some. It's really nonpunishable for somebody to be the most selfish, greedy, horrible person in the world. The real question is: Can you be something different, despite knowing that?

Also human lives aren't really important I don't think. Why do you say that? What makes a human life intrinsically important. I think it would be better for the earth's balance if most humans were eradicated. Look around. Everybody is drugged up, shooting each other- or shooting themselves. They reproduce just to pass their bigoted, neurotic views on their offspring.

But that's why we have the ideals because the world is actually that cruel and unkind, to try and thrust it to a better spot. Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong. It's just ideal. it's just something that 'would be nice' but hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't mean that it can't ever happen....

That to me is a lot more sane and 'realistic' than saying human lives are important. They really aren't naturally...that's just what people tell themselves to make themselves feel good and 'important.' But ideals are just sort of a natural progress.
Well, what I mean by human values is something like that we are all intrinsically human, we all have human values and we all deserve to have our values respected. We all have the right to live, voice our opinions, pursuit happiness, respect, safety, shelter and all that. We are all basically... human, and we all want to be treated and treat others the same way we want to be treated. We all don't want to be the victim of a crime or abuse any more than others. Ideals are important... but they can also be misguided and destructive. Like... saying that suicide bombing is justified on the ground on that it represented an "ideal". Or... people like Jared Lautner might genuinely believe that he was doing a "good" by putting all the attention on him by killing a bunch of innocent people. These are extreme examples, and needless to say... these actions are clearly misguided. When people and their values are sacrificed for the "greater good"... then I think that becomes a problem.

So... what you're speaking of is a sort of a Machiavellian, "jungle-world" philosophy. Might makes right. Everybody is essentially a hypocrite. You can do as you please, as long as you are not caught. No real values exist. Which is actually pretty darn disturbing, actually... but anyway, I'm sure that you don't really mean what you say. And we're forgetting that we don't want to be cheated any more than others. We all essentially have the same wishes as others. A person with a disregard for others is treated the same in kind. A killer who doesn't want to be killed may be killed for the reason that we all don't want to be killed. It's much more beneficial and easier to cooperate in the spirit of mutuality than thinking that we are entitled to all.

So... can we not see even the simplest of the cause-and-effect relations? Are we so blind to even the most basic consequences of our actions...? Are we so arrogant to assume that we have the "luck on our sides"... that we are entitled to anything, that we can "get away" or "get by" things without getting caught, without having to face the consequences?