How normal is to think about rape?

[Kim]

I feel like the "intrusive thoughts" quote pretty much answers your question. I don't know if there are any statistical studies on the proportion of people who have intrusive thoughts, but I imagine that its large enough such that to suggest those who have those thoughts need medical treatment would be absurd. Of course, it does matter what those intrusive thoughts include, such as intent for rape or murder or whatever, but I think the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is characterized as benign, necessarily excluding intent. Also, I don't believe the commonality of intrusive thoughts is the only reason medical treatment is not necessary. As I said, the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is that they are compulsive and benign. Even if only one person on earth were to have these thoughts, there is just no reason to have him treated. He poses no threat.

However, if there were studies to suggest that such thoughts did lead to violent intentions then maybe medical treatment would be necessary, but those thoughts seeming strange and dangerous to individual people has no real bearing on whether the afflicted need medical attention. I'm sure that's obvious, but I can easily see how someone who didn't have intrusive thoughts would be scared of those who do.

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

[Aylen]

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

Men who obsessively think of rape usually don't care what you are wearing. I can see an intrusive thought occurring now and then but if it happens frequently and there are certain triggers then talking to therapist might be a good idea. I have worn lots of miniskirts around lots of men and even if they were thinking of rape I didn't see it and they didn't let on. I think a lot of men I know personally would be annoyed if someone said they could not control themselves around a woman in a miniskirt.

In contrast, in my past, wearing over-sized sweats or a long skirt did not prevent a guy from trying to intimidate me. I stabbed a guy in the hand once, with a fork, because I could not get him off me. I scared him so bad and he apologized profusely after. I think I may have cured any thoughts he had of pushing himself on a woman again. I was only like 14 and he was 18 at the time.

[willekeurig]

Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape

[mikemex]

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

You're misquoting me Kim, both in the sense that you're altering what I said and that you're quoting me without giving my words a proper context. I didn't say I think women should not wear mini-skirts because that invites rape.

What I said, for those unfamiliar with the discussion that took place in the chat, was in response to Kim's claim that women should wear and do anything they want. And I responded to that that living in a group invariably implies surrendering a bit of your personal freedom for the sake of building a society. People who think that way are extreme individualists who are to be considered dysfunctional if we analyze it from a social dynamics perspective. So here is my first claim you can quote if you wish: in a society, extreme individualism is dysfunctional. And extreme individualism is manifested by the claim that one can do anything one wishes with disregard to what others around think or want.

Further development of this discussion led me to quote @InvisibleJim:

Nope, good leaders make pragmatic and functional compromise that get shit done.

Basically, my second argument was that feminists poses a deep ignorance of History. There have always been restrictive codes of conduct in any society, codes of dressing in particular. But rather than invoking authoritarianism, such measures are pragmatic in nature. There is an undeniable relationship between how you dress and how often you invite others to think about sex with you. And this is where the topic of mini-skirts and high heels took place: that if you dress provocatively you're increasing your chances of sexual thought getting directed at you, and that includes rape thoughts. I said that many men think of rape when they see a mini-skirt and I stand firm on my ground. Basically, getting aroused this way is non-romantic lust that is one sided (non consensual since there is no regard to what the other person thinks or wants). This is, by definition, rape mentality even at the most "innocent" level. And full color and detailed fantasies of rape aren't that rare as @Kim and @point claim, I tried to prove it with the intrusive thoughts quote/reference. I did read a much longer and detailed study years ago but I can't seem to find it.

Obviously, there is a distinction between merely thinking of rape and actually engaging on it. And here was my last argument on the discussion: despite people's attempts to save their faces, we all are, without exceptions, capable of evil. A thesis of Freud is that societies are built upon the repression of instincts, it's mostly the external circumstances around against our inner strength to resist our urges what determines what we do. Society is pragmatic because it simply tries to minimize situations where people have to actively repress their urges. That's why we aren't allowed to walk around naked, which the mini-skirt example just would be a minor variant of.

[Kim]

And this is where the topic of mini-skirts and high heels took place: that if you dress provocatively you're increasing your chances of sexual thought getting directed at you, and that includes rape thoughts. I said that many men think of rape when they see a mini-skirt and I stand firm on my ground. Basically, getting aroused this way is non-romantic lust that is one sided (non consensual since there is no regard to what the other person thinks or wants). This is, by definition, rape mentality even at the most "innocent" level. And full color and detailed fantasies of rape aren't that rare as @Kim and @point claim, I tried to prove it with the intrusive thoughts quote/reference. I did read a much longer and detailed study years ago but I can't seem to find it.

Obviously, there is a distinction between merely thinking of rape and actually engaging on it. And here was my last argument on the discussion: despite people's attempts to save their faces, we all are, without exceptions, capable of evil. A thesis of Freud is that societies are built upon the repression of instincts, it's mostly the external circumstances around against our inner strength to resist our urges what determines what we do. Society is pragmatic because it simply tries to minimize situations where people have to actively repress their urges. That's why we aren't allowed to walk around naked, which the mini-skirt example just would be a minor variant of.

Yes, and the bolded part is what I disagree with, like I said above. Mini skirts are perfectly normal in many parts of the world and in the context from which I am speaking. I am not saying you should wear a mini skirt in Saudi Arabia. Of course there is variation with regards to cultural (and religious) context. I am speaking from the perspective of a woman living in North America where wearing a mini skirt is considered normal. Once upon a time in North America showing an ankle was considered revealing and potentially arousing to men. Should we go back to that?

I maintain that if a man wants to rape a woman in a mini skirt because she gets him aroused, he needs to get this issue addressed because I maintain that is not normal.

The intrusive thought reference also does not prove your claim that many men have rape fantasies when seeing a woman in *provocative clothes.* It only show that some people have intrusive thoughts, which was never the issue of this debate.