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Thread: I can’t stand my Beneficiary

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    Default I can’t stand my Beneficiary

    <Spoiler Alert>
    Maybe a long winded story to some, but I cant explain it any other way.


    I can’t stand my Beneficiary. It’s the most oddest experience, I dislike him more than I do my supervisor, even my conflictor, because at least with both of those relations I know what I am getting into…

    The benefit relation I have been in, in the last year was very much a case of ‘smoke and mirrors’.

    He is my housemate. I recall now the first time I met him in the house, and how the first thing he did was complain about something wrong with it - ie, it wasn’t clean enough, or needed to be painted. The first few months I thought it was a supervision relation (me supervisor) (also I never type first, I look at the relations first), because he always came to me to complain about someone in the house, not cleaning the dishes, or not doing the housework, etc etc. At the time I naively thought he thought I was in more leadership role, I would dictate things in the house, but after a while I realised that that wasn’t his thinking at all, his thinking was that he didn’t want to look like the bad guy in front of the housemates. Maybe his dual can behave this way, but I became increasingly uncomfortable in this type of position.

    I often felt like I was just giving and at the time I didn’t mind, but after a while I realised how little he was giving back and I mean this in ‘household’ terms; like me always giving him food I cooked too much of, or buying household items out of my own pocket because he wasn’t happy with the quality of it.

    Now you think, well this is a bit ignorant of you, you shouldn’t have been so open, so helpful so quickly…but to be honest, I felt like with out my help he was lost and for a long time I just helped. As soon as I realised I was ‘helping’ him too much I started to pull away, it began with ignoring his complaints and minimising my offerings. I know this came as a shock to him because he pushed and tried extra hard to be extremely nice to me, a trait he does perfectly, but to me created annoyance because I felt like it was fake…

    It started off like this; common interests (new people in the house), to shared goals (fixing up the house), but then little things about his personality started to seep through, things I don’t respect in people at all and once this began, it was hard to undo and turned into a rollercoaster of ups and downs of mostly trying to get back to those feelings of newness and fun during our common interests phase.

    It all became too much one day and we had a silly housemate blow-up. I literally snapped and surprised myself with how much I decided to cut him off, only in the sense of entirely blocking him on all my social networks... immature? ...probably.
    We now do the ‘civil’ hellos whenever we run into each other in the house, purely out of respect for other people living in the house.

    A year on and our once strong friendship no longer exists. It makes me ponder and look at those relationships that go through the honeymoon phase and don’t survive it. It’s lovely, then not so lovely, then ugly and now feels like a friendship (or relationship) never existed.

    Whats your story? Have i got benefit relations all wrong???

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    ESI are sometimes parasites and like other SF they can complain on everything. Sucker, simple. I dont think your relationship with him had anything to do with it, rather it helped to establish it and you got sucked into this shit.

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    you said he came to you to complain about chores not getting done because he didn't want to look bad in front of housemates. are you saying rather than confront them (which would make him "look bad") he instead decided to ask you to do it? is the idea here he decided to "use" you to accomplish the goal rather than ask these other people because it would simply be easier, because he suspected-- what exactly?-- you were more likely to give in and just do it? or he knew he was going to bother someone so he picked you since he cared for you the least? or did he want you to crack the whip on these guys, not necessarily do it yourself? why didn't you just tell him no and to stop bothering you unless you were personally responsible for whatever mess was made? in any case, its not like you have to keep ignoring him, why not talk to him, or send him this exact post, its not like it can get worse. what's he going to do, fight you? slander you to your roommates? on what ground? that their mess making ruined you two's relationship? because you didn't want to be his personal fixer? if he's your beneficiary it should work with him looking up to you and you having a degree of psychological leverage over him. this sounds different maybe

    A peculiarity of these relations at later, established stages is that the beneficiary may find themselves unable to turn down benefactor's proposals and suggestions, thus in a way falling into unconscious control of the benefactor; which is one clue that allows to identify benefit relations.

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    I think Beneficiary and Benefactor as BS names. Compatibility isn't based on a function level but a block level and these relationships are cross hierarchy (aristocrat/democrat) which means they will inevitably have conflict.

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    It's so hard to describe the dynamic that began very early on. There's a problem on both sides, my own makings and his own doings.

    I basically wanted to accommodate his needs by relieving his 'stresses' of an untidy house, so took on the role of maybe not so much as leader per say, but mediator between him and the rest of the house. Except, it not always had great results.
    He himself (which is really clear now) always wanted to appear the friendly and 'down to earth' housemate.

    Sucked in ? Totally.

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    this honestly sounds like Fe Fe polr interactions with the conspicuous silence and mutual avoidance. both sides are "adjusting" the other and it ends up in a stalemate characterized by distance. if this is correct he probably doesn't dislike you, he just thinks whatever he does goes over wrong, so he's decided to give you space so it doesn't get worse (ironically, this is bothersome in its own right). you probably feel like maintaining distance is better than confrontation as well. If this sounds plausible consider it may not be benefit relations, since, at least in my experience, the parties to benefit relations don't have any problem closing the distance, even when things are bad. what ends up happening is someone clearly "wins" and life goes on, although it may be turbulent. its weighted to one side, not a stalemate of mutual discomfort



    edit: I also want to add the wiki seems to be confused

    Benefit, also called relations of request or social order, is an asymmetric relation in which the type at higher level is called the benefactor (or request transmitter) and the type at lower level is called the beneficiary (request recipient or recipient of social order).
    Benefactor → Beneficiary (e.g. SEI is the Benefactor of LSI, and so forth.)
    corrected for Gulenko

    Right Ring of Benefit
    SEI → LSI → ILI → EII → SEI → ...
    ILE → EIE → SEE → LSE → ILE → ...
    Left Ring of Benefit
    LII → SLI → ESI → IEI → LII → ...
    ESE → IEE → LIE → SLE → ESE →

    Direct request - Right ring of Benefit

    There is some tension in communication, however, it is quite attractive because in your partner you see someone who can implement your plans and ideas. Therefore, you start looking for a way to integrate with this person and earn his or her trust. This happens only when when you can catch them off guard, when he or she was distracted, relaxed, and had poor control over his or her actions. Coming out from the "hypnosis" the partner understands that he was in some degree used, after which there is a period of cooling in these relations. Discovering that your influence is weakening, you start to take steps to more fine-tuned integration. Communication for this reason has a sort of pulsating nature.
    in both these situations its the benefactor who is kicking things off even if, from their point of view, they don't believe they "started" it

    Reverse request - Left ring of benefit

    Communication is not as much interesting as it is activating and mobilizing. You [the benefactor] are critical of the opinions and behaviors of your partner. During a silent moment, you start feeling uncomfortable. At times, it seems that your partner is ignoring or not noticing something, so then you start to forcibly bring the matter to his attention. You don't make efforts to befriend such a partner, more likely he invites you himself offering this or that project. Whether relations establish or not depends on whether he manages to interest you. Once you are sure that your partner indeed provides valuable information, you use it with great benefit for yourself.
    One problem with gulenko's description is linked to how the wiki uses reinin's process and result to define left/right, which is backwards by gulenko, who in turn uses involutionary/evolutionary to distinguish ITRs belonging to left/right. In other words, if you combine gulenko's description its backwards if you use the left/right dichotomy given in the wiki according to reinin (the underlying error is laundered through "left/right" terminology--both use left/right to mean two different things based on two different criterion. on the surface they're using the same words but with two different meanings and therefore consequences for describing ITR that turn on what ring they're talking about). It also bears keeping in mind that direct and reverse request to my knowledge involve "requests" made by the benefactor and "direct" characterizes the interaction between right types (represented above--I corrected them to comport with Gulenko) with "reverse" characterizing left benefit relations

    the problem is the wiki throws in, side by side, all these different descriptions by different socionists, which operate on different underlying assumptions, so then you have all these descriptions using similar language but having, in truth, opposite meanings. the distinction between left/right as defined by process/result according to reinin or involutionary/evolutionary according to gulenko is an error that slips in all over the place and is rarely specified. thus it is not hard to see how people could be confused because there is a surface impression of consistent accounts, but which are in fact contradictory, unless you notice they're based on different presuppositions. the final result is a morass of confusing and contradictory accounts that could lead one to almost any conclusion, which in turn leads to the criticism of socionics itself as meaningless and vague. my point is its not because they aren't describing a real phenomenon, its because the way it is formulated and presented is confusing, but people take the latter fact to indicate there's nothing there to begin with. while Reinin and Gulenko have rationally formulated it in a contradictory way, and because of this, their meanings are different if you start from the language, their true ultimate big picture meaning is actually the same, because its based on the same phenomenological observations. their programs have just, as Gulenko has said, "crossed over one another"
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-03-2018 at 08:57 PM.

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    The reason why I have pulled towards benefit is because of his strange idolisation towards me when we were in our 'nice' phase. I don't about yourself, but from my point of view being a supervisee to at least 3 people in my life right now I know I don't idolise them, but feel like they look down on me like I am a child and they the adult.
    I never did this to my beneficiary.

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    Well, it seems to me that both of you are lacking in the communication department.

    I agree that some ESI males are internally demanding and like to vent to other people about others "wrongdoings" instead of being confrontational. It´s a life skill that they usually learn later in life (along with being less demanding about minor trifles).
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post


    edit: I also want to add the wiki seems to be confused



    Benefactor → Beneficiary (e.g. SEI is the Benefactor of LSI, and so forth.)
    corrected for Gulenko

    Right Ring of Benefit
    SEI → LSI → ILI → EII → SEI → ...
    ILE → EIE → SEE → LSE → ILE → ...
    Left Ring of Benefit
    LII → SLI → ESI → IEI → LII → ...
    ESE → IEE → LIE → SLE → ESE →



    in both these situations its the benefactor who is kicking things off even if, from their point of view, they don't believe they "started" it



    One problem with gulenko's description is linked to how the wiki uses reinin's process and result to define left/right, which is backwards by gulenko, who in turn uses involutionary/evolutionary to distinguish ITRs belonging to left/right. In other words, if you combine gulenko's description its backwards if you use the left/right dichotomy given in the wiki according to reinin (the underlying error is laundered through "left/right" terminology--both use left/right to mean two different things based on two different criterion. on the surface they're using the same words but with two different meanings and therefore consequences for describing ITR that turn on what ring they're talking about). It also bears keeping in mind that direct and reverse request to my knowledge involve "requests" made by the benefactor and "direct" characterizes the interaction between right types (represented above--I corrected them to comport with Gulenko) with "reverse" characterizing left benefit relations

    the problem is they throw in all these different descriptions by different socionists, with different underlying assumptions, so then you have all these descriptions side by side using similar language but having, in truth, opposite meanings. the distinction between left/right as defined by process/result according to reinin or involutionary/evolutionary according to gulenko is an error that slips in all over the place and is rarely specified
    The problem with Supervision and Benefaction is these both break hierarchy and quadra values. You will never agree with the worldview of any of these types because they are always fundamentally different from your own (aristocrat vs democrat & quadra).

    Also the fact that you can swap the direction as gulenko did, means you have a problem in the analysis.

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    I highly doubt you understand what I just posted, domr. its just a case of 6 v half dozen. it doesn't mean "the analysis is off" what is off is the way the information was compiled and presented in the wiki. I can "swap the direction" within the meaning of what gulenko did with literally any piece of information in the world. which is actually the premise of relativity when you drill down into it. the same thing can be looked at two different ways and neither is wrong, they are simply internally consistent and useful to some degree or not

    as for the effusiveness of "the other guy" in relating to OP at first, it could be indicative of a general Fe approach. In general what happens is some people are nicer at larger distances and meaner at closer distances, and for some people it progresses in the opposite direction. Thus when these two interact, someone is super nice at first and only gets less nice as time goes on, and they expect the other person to be the same way, so the two parties get super confused when the opposite occurs at first (i.e. one is nice the other is standoffish as baseline), and, should conflict arise, assume the other person is hopeless because it can only get worse, by their logic rooted in their own nature. reconciliation seems impossible, and it sort of is, as long as people stick to their conventional way of doing things
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-03-2018 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I highly doubt you understand what I just posted, domr

    as for the effusiveness of "the other guy" in relating to OP at first, it could be indicative of a general Fe approach. In general what happens is some people are nicer at larger distances and meaner at closer distances, and for some people it progresses in the opposite direction. Thus when these two interact, someone is super nice at first and only gets less nice as time goes on, and they expect the other person to be the same way, so the two parties get super confused when the opposite occurs, and assume the other person is hopeless because it can only get worse, by their logic rooted in their own nature. reconciliation seems impossible, and it sort of is, as long as people stick to their conventional way of doing things
    You posted regurgitated information that you didn't analyze. Supervision and Benefaction will always be cross hierarchy and cross Quadra so these relationships with have multiple disagreement.

    Benefactor is very similar to semi-dual. It's like a cross between semi-dual and activity. It's like a high energy version of semi-dual. If anything, I would call this relationship ignoring because your benefactors C4 function is the same as your U4 function so it's not of any use to you. Their C3 function is your U1 function so you do want that type of info BUT because it's paired to the opposite club, you will end up ignoring the info as it's incompatible with your club preferences.
    Last edited by domr; 08-03-2018 at 09:18 PM.

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    sorry about my lack of analysis (which was never the goal, it was to point out a common confusion resulting from a scrivener's error). there's no "problem" here subject to analysis, which is why the whole terryology thing keeps coming up. you're trying to reinvent the wheel in the dumbest possible way, and assume everyone else is too, and you think they're just bad at it or something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    sorry about my lack of analysis, well I guess when your system drops you will clear everything up for me anyway
    I just told you everything. And this is standard socionics: Model A -> 4 blocks, all of the same clubs.

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    So here we have an example of supervision then (if domr is IEE)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    thanks for the keys to the kingdom domr, well, Im going to throw them in the trash now

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    You posted regurgitated information that you didn't analyze. Supervision and Benefaction will always be cross hierarchy and cross Quadra so these relationships with have multiple disagreement.

    Benefactor is very similar to semi-dual. It's like a cross between semi-dual and activity. It's like a high energy version of semi-dual. If anything, I would call this relationship ignoring because your benefactors C4 function is the same as your U4 function so it's not of any use to you. Their C3 function is your U1 function so you do want that type of info BUT because it's paired to the opposite club, you will end up ignoring the info as it's incompatible with your club preferences.
    It depends on functional focus, as functional focus goes towards creative resp. base, benefit relationships approach activity resp. quasi-identical. If you look up some of smilingeyes´ older articles, he explains everything quite clearly.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by 17types View Post
    The reason why I have pulled towards benefit is because of his strange idolisation towards me when we were in our 'nice' phase. I don't about yourself, but from my point of view being a supervisee to at least 3 people in my life right now I know I don't idolise them, but feel like they look down on me like I am a child and they the adult.
    I never did this to my beneficiary.
    based on what you're telling me it seems more like conflict, which is a feeling of "lack of mutual support".. conflict is an unfortunate name, because it makes it sound like physical or verbal altercations, but its really more calibrated to every dyad. what we see in the movies as conflict is really more like the force on force (literal) conflict between strong Se or Fe or both. the things that hurt Hamlet's soul are not outright conflict in the force on force way, its the feeling of discomfort he thinks he may be causing you. in other words, its the mutual polr hits. I think I see in your post pain over the ethical elements involved, so, I could be wrong about this but it sounds like EIE SLI relations.. this would be in keeping with mutual misinterpretation of the other's words and actions which perpetuate this feeling of the other not "doing their part" which is our unconscious expectations rooted in dual orientation

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    It depends on functional focus, as functional focus goes towards creative resp. base, benefit relationships approach activity resp. quasi-identical. If you look up some of smilingeyes´ older articles, he explains everything quite clearly.
    Activity, Dual, even Conflict are all inter-hierarchy relationships so you have the same macro world view. Supervision and Benefaction are cross-hierarchy relationships so you will always have different worldview. I'll use myself as an example. I'm IEE in Socionics (NeFi) and Benefactor is ESE (FeSi). So when they give me advice, sure it's Si heavy, but it's Si being channeled in SiFe, which is democratic humanitarianism. The advice is basically worthless to me. The samething is true for me Beneficiary the LIE. I will give them aristocratic moralism (FiNe) but they want democratic hedonism (FiSe). So these relationships are ones of wrong advice. This is very different from activity where they advice is mostly the same as my duals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Activity, Dual, even Conflict are all inter-hierarchy relationships so you have the same macro world view. Supervision and Benefaction are cross-hierarchy relationships so you will always have different worldview. I'll use myself as an example. I'm IEE in Socionics (NeFi) and Benefactor is ESE (FeSi). So when they give me advice, sure it's Si heavy, but it's Si being channeled in SiFe, which is democratic humanitarianism. The advice is basically worthless to me. The samething is true for me Beneficiary the LIE. I will give them aristocratic moralism (FiNe) but they want democratic hedonism (FiSe). So these relationships are ones of wrong advice. This is very different from activity where they advice is mostly the same as my duals.
    I see it differently. IEEs give me negativist-result-Fi which sometimes is more useful than process-Fi that SEEs can give, and in many ways more similar to negativist-results-Fi that you can get from ESIs. Why are you focussing so much on the aristrocratic-democratic reinin dichotomy?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I see it differently. IEEs give me negativist-result-Fi which sometimes is more useful than process-Fi that SEEs can give, and in many ways more similar to negativist-results-Fi that you can get from ESIs.
    Result and Negativist are not part of core model.

    Aristocrats
    IE = Spiritualists (Theocrats)
    SL = Officers (Bureaucrats)

    Democrats
    IL = Scientist (Technocrats)
    SE = Humanists

    If someone is Alpha or Gamma then all 4 of their blocks will be Science & Humanity. If someone is Beta & Delta then all 4 of their blocks will be Spirituality & Officiant.

    If you are LIE, then you want SE-FiSe (Hedonism), not IE-FiNe (Moralism). The latter is fundamentally not compatible with your Model A block layout, 2 SE blocks and 2 IL blocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why are you focussing so much on the aristrocratic-democratic reinin dichotomy?
    Because it's the most important dichotomy that derives from analysis. It's identical to the Quadras but at 1 level higher. Neither the 4 Quadras nor the 2 hierarchies are explicitly defined through Jungian axioms. They arise from analysis. Quadras come from the valued functions theory (NeSi, etc.). While hierarchies come from defining the clubs.

    16 Types -> 8 Intellects combine to form the 4 Quadras.
    4 Clubs combine to form the 2 Hierarchies.
    That's why it's so important.

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    I don´t understand why you keep on trying to explain to me this stuff. We simply disagree on a fundamental level and I think you are wrong. Every debate among the two of us ends up with you trying to explain to me stuff that I already know.

    (I was talking with domr not crack)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don´t understand why you keep on trying to explain to me this stuff. We simply disagree on a fundamental level and I think you are wrong. Every debate among the two of us ends up with you trying to explain to me stuff that I already know.

    (I was talking with domr not crack)
    do you think that might be because you don't listen? and how could you possible know this stuff when it's all original analysis by me. Post me a link to someone else that defined the 4 clubs the same way I did?
    Quote Originally Posted by crAck View Post
    Over time, we come to see the Benefactor's morals (lessons; priorities) as a "good" thing (we aspire our Seeking, duh)
    Again. Your Model A will always contain 2 IL and 2 SE blocks while Benefaction will contain 2 SL and 2 IE blocks, or vice-versa. So you will never see their morals (E) or logic (L) as good because they are fundamentally opposite of yours.

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    domr

    whats odd to me is you're obviously developing this new model, or rebranding it, or whatever, based on the perceived need for it to be more understandable, and then whenever anyone points out you're basically speaking your own private and near impenetrable language, you just fall back on a claim predicting how superior the new model is going to be, as if the criticism itself arising out of people's present confusion doesn't immediately discredit that claim, rendering it of no assurance. Then you go on to essentially say "itll work trust me!" as if anyone has any reason to do so, since they can just, you know..not.. and they've gained by not adopting a model that makes even less sense than what they already know. Meanwhile you're talking about how people don't listen and all these other personal failings, when you could just be doing whatever it is presumably you're trying to do. And the more you fuck around badgering people and try to convince them to take on credit what has yet to materialize, the less likely it becomes youll ever actually finish. so there's this weird dynamic where the more you run your mouth about how great this thing is, the less likely anyone is ever to actually see it, and the more justified they are in fighting you on it. further it would, in general, be in your best interest just to develop the model and if you want feedback just to ask instead of extracting it by way of being confusing, i.e.: at everyone's expense. like this thread for example. one gets the distinct impression you already know this, which means you also know the whole thing is silliness which really amounts to generating a distraction for whatever value that confers. but socionics is not so hopeless that it requires this form of life support employed as a way to keep people dying from boredom. I think people are not so cynical that deep down they agree playing with its corpse as if it were a marionette is all socionics is really good for.. because it hasn't died for them yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by 17types View Post
    A year on and our once strong friendship no longer exists. It makes me ponder and look at those relationships that go through the honeymoon phase and don’t survive it. It’s lovely, then not so lovely, then ugly and now feels like a friendship (or relationship) never existed.

    Whats your story? Have i got benefit relations all wrong???
    I think this happens in many relationships. At least that has been my experience of it. At the beginning there are positive expectations, the newness and the common goals, the future looks bright, you feel uplifted and inspired, but then there comes some critical point, some downturn or difficult times or some unpleasant situation, and if you can't get past that things end, or at least there is estrangement for some time. I'd say the some ITRs like "benefit" are more susceptible to these check points. Also "supervision" and "mirage" ime. Honeymoon period ends in any case, even for duals. Then you might see something that you don't really like from each other. This is like an assessment point - both of you need to feel like everything else was worth it to continue. Some "benefit" pairs survive this, and you could still mend things with your ESI friend, if you feel like it's worth it. Gulenko ranks "benefit" as either #4 or #5 in his list of intertypes due to how common this 'connection' is between friends and in couples. It is definitely a relation of pronounced ups-and-downs.

    What happens in benefit relations is an asymmetric trade of energy and information. The "benefactor" is the one who inspires the beneficiary towards some actions or some projects, but that creative impulse isn't reciprocated due to the asymmetry. So the "benefactor" sends out this energy impulse, but it is is never replenished. Then the benefactor ends up feeling like he's giving and giving, though usually not in a material sense, and the beneficiary isn't really up to par. In casual "benefit" friendships this breaking point is sometimes felt like simple boredom - the benefactor feels bored and underwhelmed with their beneficiary, stops giving them attention, and they drift apart. In a relationship, this creates a precedent for an a argument and a parting.

    I think every benefit ring has a certain different flavor to it as to what happens between the benefit pairs. Strati has recently come alive and published a series of articles on superego and benefit relations. She started with the involutionary introverted ring, which is SLI-ESI-IEI-LII. So here's a couple paragraphs of interest:

    Like all involutors, the "asking" introverts consider critical opinions to be the most worthwhile (although they don't exclude criticism from jealousy or meanness), while they refer with disbelief to reviews of praise and commendation (which doesn't prevent them from referring to these for prestige). Themselves feel awkward even when they praise someone sincerely - in these instances they seem unconvincing to themselves and to others.

    The combination of these three features - involution, introversion, "asking" trait - and the commonality of characteristics that are manifested in all representatives of these TIMs, that are united by a common introvert-involutionary ("Questim") ring of social progress, imposes a certain imprint on their relations in dyads, making them especially painful because of the endless squabbles arising from stinging, petty, cruel and sharp mutual criticism of the actions of both partners, and their condemnation of each other's actions as being illogical, untimely, unethical and unaesthetic during the crisis periods of their relations, which precedes the rejection of the "beneficiary" and his subsequent exit from the influence of the "benefactor" (from the social order).

    Full version in Russian: https://socionika-forever.blogspot.c...BA%D0%B0%D0%B7

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    that is awesome that strat is branching out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    domr

    whats odd to me is you're obviously developing this new model, or rebranding it, or whatever, based on the perceived need for it to be more understandable, and then whenever anyone points out you're basically speaking your own private and near impenetrable language, you just fall back on a claim predicting how superior the new model is going to be, as if the criticism itself arising out of people's present confusion doesn't immediately discredit that claim, rendering it of no assurance. Then you go on to essentially say "itll work trust me!" as if anyone has any reason to do so, since they can just, you know..not.. and they've gained by not adopting a model that makes even less sense than what they already know. Meanwhile you're talking about how people don't listen and all these other personal failings, when you could just be doing whatever it is presumably you're trying to do. And the more you fuck around badgering people and try to convince them to take on credit what has yet to materialize, the less likely it becomes youll ever actually finish. so there's this weird dynamic where the more you run your mouth about how great this thing is, the less likely anyone is ever to actually see it, and the more justified they are in fighting you on it. further it would, in general, be in your best interest just to develop the model and if you want feedback just to ask instead of extracting it by way of being confusing, i.e.: at everyone's expense. like this thread for example. one gets the distinct impression you already know this, which means you also know the whole thing is silliness which really amounts to generating a distraction for whatever value that confers. but socionics is not so hopeless that it requires this form of life support employed as a way to keep people dying from boredom. I think people are not so cynical that deep down they agree playing with its corpse as if it were a marionette is all socionics is really good for.. because it hasn't died for them yet
    The only thing here that's my own language is the understanding of the blocks, FiSe, etc. The rest is Model A + aristocrat/democrat from Reinin. You don't even need to understand how the blocks work to understand that ITR between people with IE/SL vs IL/SE in their Model A blocks will be problematic. This is basic reasoning.

    And speaking of the new model. Everything like negativist, result, DCHN, blah blah blah, that content, is not part of the core model and basically a foreign language. People are acting like these weird concepts are proven and tried and true when they are really high level speculation. Meanwhile same people don't even understand the basic of Model A, 4 blocks all in the same Reinin hierarchy. If they did understand the core model, then they would realize most of those weird theories break the core model.
    Last edited by domr; 08-04-2018 at 02:11 AM.

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    what makes model A more correct than everything you say "broke" it

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    @17types

    For the record, I often got the feeling growing up that my ISTp mom (who feels compelled to help me all the time) doesn't like me as much as she loves me, if you know what I mean. Example: In times of stress I have told her I'd love for my dad and her to come live with my family when they are older if they have no other choice, and she seems quite... "repulsed" may be too strong a word but definitely she seems to have strong, good reasons why she wouldn't ever want to live with me. Now, I don't doubt her love for me for a second, but you can see how I also don't think it's weird for a Benefactor to dislike their Beneficiary. =]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what makes model A more correct than everything you say "broke" it
    Model A is consistant with the axiomatic derivation of the types.

    Step 0) JP
    Step 1) 4 Cubs: IE;SL; IL;SE
    Step 2) 8 Intellects: NiFe;FiNe; TiSe;SiTe ...n=8
    Step 3) 16 Types: NiFe;FeNi;FiNe;NeFi ...n=16

    There are a different 8 function models you could use to model each type. Model A is the best of the bunch because of it's ability to explain relationships. I can derive duality from the interaction of the 8 model A blocks. I can derive quasi-identical from the Model A.

    If you add stuff like Static/Dynamic or Process/Result, it breaks the derivations.

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    lol

    you make it sound like Model A is "consistent" whereas everything else isn't. But consistent with what..? oh right, your totally made up criterion. all that jazz about consistency is the gloss you put over arbitrary selection criterion from which this whole thing springs. and that was precisely my point. your "choosing" of model A and exclusion of "other stuff" is inherently groundless. What is ability to "explain relationships" even mean..? if it explains it in a way that amounts to "when a man and woman love eachother very much a really big stork visits.." its like you don't understand that the explanation can't just be superficial, and if it is, it means all sorts of explanations will do. the consequence of that approach is the theory amounts to nothing more than the gloss you put over the idea that people get along or not for "reasons"-- everyone already knows this, you left out all the real information, did none of the real work. the problem is not to capture that it happens in meaningless general terms, its to describe the firsthand phenomenological experience in terms of western culture, because its in those terms alone that the actual numinosity is "captured." culture, and the people in it, are grounded in religious scientific and philosophical traditions (well besides you, you're in outer space apparently). its like if you simply reconstruct some version of model A detached from these traditions there is no reason for anyone to take them seriously because you've produced just another version of "sometimes people miscommunicate according to observable patterns"-- socionics is already critiqued enough on the grounds its little more than astrology, and yet you find this aforementioned vague generalized and useless description somehow inferior to DCNH or other modifications to Model A, as if your entire scheme isn't just a worse play on exactly that. its odd that you think by simply using pseudo mathematical language you think you can obscure that fact, or add credibility, without actually realizing thats not the currency on which this whole machine runs. do you understand what im saying at all? its like If I said I want to reinvent the theory of how we got to the moon in terms of magic and fairies, as if somehow that will "enlighten" everyone as to how space travel works. it enlightens them in the wrong direction.. its precisely in this direction that exclusion from popular acceptance lies. its a step backward into what amounts to superstition, and you seem to fail understand, in principle, the distinction between the popular superstition and the substance of western scientific thought, as if imitating some of their easier to understand symbols and forms is what confers on anything its "prestige" and isn't just a byproduct of what is all going on under the surface. its so incredibly superficial, it boggles the mind that you actually think this way. its like you live in a post-apocalypse where you attach religious conviction to bygone symbols you don't understand so paint them over your silly non-explanations as if thats what makes them work. thats the cargo cult socionics singu is always ranting about. its not even socionics anymore and your fidelity to model A is completely illusory anyway, as if it were a person who should be honored by your kind words about its "consistency". this is probably why End is so worried about being cucked, because of how scammy this way of being is. its a way of relating to things that is actually completely insubstantial and spends all its effort instead trying to look like the thing instead of be the thing. deep down, you don't even know what it is you're aiming at, because how could you when you treat everything that way? its like behind every door is just another pop up clown reminding you how empty and absurd it all is, nothing ever reaches bottom and never truly relates to anything else but it keeps on presenting itself as if it did, and anyone who buys in only gets the pleasure of slowly realizing they got fool's gold, and you act as if you've done them a favor. doubtless there exists people who do need to be taught such a lesson, but the idea that you're going to reinvent the system in order to help people, is helping only in the most perverse sense. its helps the people who need to wake up to the fact that there's a lot of bullshit out there and they should be less credulous by purposefully engineering a product that looks just plausible enough on the surface to meaningfully disappoint them once they find out its fucking retarded, but it indiscriminately markets itself as if there wasn't enough wholesale disappointment in the world already
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-04-2018 at 03:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Model A is consistant with the axiomatic derivation of the types.
    [...]
    If you add stuff like Static/Dynamic or Process/Result, it breaks the derivations.
    All of the Reinin traits, except perhaps questioning/narrative, can be interpreted in a model-theoretic fashion in terms of Model A.

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    Static types: mental ring composed of rational functions , irrational functions , and so on.

    Process types: within each block (ego, id etc) order of functions goes T>S, S>F, F>N and N>T. Order is reversed for result types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    All of the Reinin traits, except perhaps questioning/narrative, can be interpreted in a model-theoretic fashion in terms of Model A.
    Most of the reinin dichotomies break the blocks. If I use Model A and I remove the dimensions (which create the 16 types) then I am left with 8 symmetrical blocks. Example, EII NeFi is the same as EIE NeFi. Most of the reinin dichotomies break this inherent symmetry because they say their is an X version of a function in one of the 8 blocks vs a Y version, like process-result. In other words a lot of these dichotomies break the model.

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    when you say break the model you mean "didn't actually break the model, I just use those words when I mean it lead to a result I don't like" the "result" isn't even bad. can you even describe why you don't like it without recourse to your own personal jargon? "If I use model A and I remove the dimensions (which creates 16 types)"--what? "then I am left with 8 symetrical blocks" --what?? "example EII NeFi is the same as EIEI NeFi"--what???--you know what, nevermind... "most of the reinin dichotomies break this inherent symmetry.." no fool, reinin dichotomies are derivatives of the model not modifications to it. reinin doesn't break the model so much as indicate why your understanding of it is wrong to begin with, once you apparently discovered him. you don't get to turn the tables on renin as if any failures of your own understanding of how this works means he's wrong. reinin never put anything into the model that wasn't already there to begin with. your failure to understand this borders on the derranged, and all the subsequent effort to rejigger the model out of commitment to this easily disproved premise is like, I don't know, terryology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    when you say break the model you mean "didn't actually break the model, I just use those words when I mean it lead to a result I don't like" the "result" isn't even bad. can you even describe why you don't like it without recourse to your own personal jargon? "If I use model A and I remove the dimensions (which creates 16 types)"--what? "then I am left with 8 symetrical blocks" --what?? "example EII NeFi is the same as EIEI NeFi"--what???--you know what, nevermind... "most of the reinin dichotomies break this inherent symmetry.." no fool, reinin dichotomies are derivatives of the model not modifications to it. reinin doesn't break the model so much as indicate why your understanding of it is wrong to begin with, once you apparently discovered him. you don't get to turn the tables on renin as if any failures of your own understanding of how this works means he's wrong. reinin never put anything into the model that wasn't already there to begin with. your failure to understand this borders on the derranged, and all the subsequent effort to rejigger the model out of commitment to this easily disproved premise is like, I don't know, terryology
    Do you even read or do you just write long ass 1 paragraph rants?

    Step 0) JP
    Step 1) 4 Cubs: IE;SL; IL;SE
    Step 2) 8 Intellects: NiFe;FiNe; TiSe;SiTe ...n=8
    Step 3) 16 Types: NiFe;FeNi;FiNe;NeFi ...n=16
    Step 2 -> 3 is adding Dimensionality. Dimensionality, stating 1 function in each block is stronger than the other (dominant vs aux in Jungian terminology) is what creates the 16 types from the 8 intellects. So If i remove dimensionality, I am back to the 8 intellects. (And If i remove I/E, then I back to the 4 Clubs, step 1). Without the model breaking non-sense, those 8 intellects are symmetrical. All Democrats have the same NiTe, TiNe, FiSe, SiFe, blocks and likewise for all Aristocrats. But most of the reinin dichotomies break this symmetry so now you need to define new blocks with each individual function has a reinin extension to it. Reinin is great if you disregard the entire theory of blocks, but if you do that then you discard Model A. Hence most reinin fundamentally break Model A; as you might has noticed, I do use his A/D dichotomy because it's consistant with the core Model.

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    bro I don't know how to break this to you, but that is gibberish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    bro I don't know how to break this to you, but that is gibberish
    you might want to try school, maybe the mathematics department. i hear they teach simple logic there.

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    Come back when you are ready with your new system and post it in viewpoints or start new one in there. Anyways with this kind shuffling with structures by ignoring the evidence and cherry picking might point that your main goal is to just to play with a system [as someone sees some beauty in it] which in itself puts your self typing under doubt by other people. When the only truth exists in your head you can not demand other's participation.
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    first of all, that stepwise process is baseless

    second of all, "dimensionality" does not mean the relationship of functions contained within the ego, you made that up too. even if it did, by itself it leads nowhere

    third, if you make up a series of steps to be followed, and define for yourself the content of those steps, which is what you have done, you can generate any model you like. axiomatic is not a magic word. it apparently does not mean what you think it means. axiomatic simply characterizes any theory that can be traced back to basic assumptions, assumptions which are required to be accepted as true for the theory to work. here you're asking people to adopt your process and your definitions, which are not the same as model As process and definitions, all under the guise that somehow the consequences of doing so remain truer to model A and, since they run contrary to reinin, necessarily exclude reinin. when in fact the exact opposite is true. reinin used a process consistent with the assumptions of model A. its precisely for the reasoning you claim, but thoroughly fail to understand, why reinin prevails over you by your very logic. the axiomatic system at stake here is not model A as you insist, its actually the theory of domr, which has been substituted and passed off as model A. that reinin is a thing just demonstrates some of the weaknesses of the theory of domr, but that is not sufficient justification to reject reinin, that is sufficient justification to reject domr. sorry.

    further your entire usage of "theory of blocks" as pre committing one to rejecting reinin if they accept model A is just another baseless assertion rooted in your own ignorance. if you actually understood the words you were using you could see how the stuff you're saying is totally absurd. its like me saying, with great conviction, you must choose between the ocean being blue or the sky being blue, because the theory of blocks says so! its like no dude, you're just an idiot

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    do you think that might be because you don't listen? and how could you possible know this stuff when it's all original analysis by me. Post me a link to someone else that defined the 4 clubs the same way I did?
    Then write an understandable article about it please because if you´re using a new theory we´re not supposed to know it, you kind of nedd to...explain it to us?

    For example: why do you think the democratic-aristocratic dichotomy is the only important one among Reinin´s? Just because it creates club divisions? Do you have empirical support for this claim or at least can you explain to us why it´s so much more important than, say, process-result?
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