Why Ne?

[anndelise]

No one's putting a gun to my head. You do it because your community needs it. Period. It's another job, a contribution. Duty, honor. Whatever.

I need a better car than the one I have now.
Does that mean you will give me your car? Just because i need it?

Nm...you actually gave me what I needed...even though you tried hiding it.

You WANT to help your community.
You WANT to contribute.
You WANT to do your perceived duty.
You WANT to honor yourself, and the people you are helping.

So you do it. You get your wants met.

Are you going to now suggest that you get no joy from having done it?
That you get no sense of satisfaction for having done it?
That you aren't glad to have honored your values?
That you aren't happy to have helped those people?

[Beautiful sky]

I need a better car than the one I have now.
Does that mean you will give me your car? Just because i need it?

You're taking this way over unnecessary board, because I do the things I can within my financial and resourceful means. I'm not unrealistic about what I can do.

[Beautiful sky]

I just get the overall impression that some people here are "I'm an asshole who only wants to do things for myself."

[anndelise]

Nm...you actually gave me what I needed...even though you tried hiding it.

You WANT to help your community.
You WANT to contribute.
You WANT to do your perceived duty.
You WANT to honor yourself, and the people you are helping.

So you do it. You get your wants met.

Are you going to now suggest that you get no joy from having done it?
That you get no sense of satisfaction for having done it?
That you aren't glad to have honored your values?
That you aren't happy to have helped those people?

[Beautiful sky]

Nm...you actually gave me what I needed...even though you tried hiding it.

You WANT to help your community.
You WANT to contribute.
You WANT to do your perceived duty.
You WANT to honor yourself, and the people you are helping.

So you do it. You get your wants met.

Are you going to now suggest that you get no joy from having done it?
That you get no sense of satisfaction for having done it?
That you aren't glad to have honored your values?
That you aren't happy to have helped those people?

What do you do or want to do? Then please go ahead. I CAN do the things I do, that is why I do them. I like being responsible, so I guess a lot of things I do are out of responsibility.

Do you have any contributions to make to this thread or are you going to continue to pick on me?

[Beautiful sky]

Actually, Maritsa, I agree with what you were trying to do to distinguish between Se creative and Ne creative. I, too, have been puzzled by a difficulty in trying to see Ne in the things that Ryene writes, and not really being able to see it, and not quite knowing why or what to look for.

I looked at that video you posted, the lady up on the stage talking about what she wants for her daughter, and if I understand correctly, that's an example of an ESI, and a really good one at that. It shows the spirit of Se, in an admirable way.

I'm not really sure how to go about distinguishing between a Se and Ne creative, but in my opinion, you were doing okay with the questions you were asking.

Ne is coming out with possibilities, among one thing, and interprets objects beyond their face value; a brick is just a brick, hence it is static and something that Se sees so you can imagine Se going around looking at things, picking up static objects, you are static too when you're standing still so they look at all your features, your hair, eyes, what color you wear, what size you are, etc. Ne, unlike Se, looks at a brick but somehow the real and observable qualities of the object are lost to the individual and instead they see the potential, for example, a brick becomes what it can be used for, I see a wall when I see a brick, so I don't catch the details of brick but a wall; ideas develop out of Ne because the person suggests to you what you can do with that brick as they see the uses for that object, one can see many uses for the brick rather than the observable properties of the brick. I believe that Ryene is switching Se with Ne, using her Role function in the introduction to this thread, she's describing Ne properties.

This is a good example of Ne:

I tend to imagine situations playing out, usually worst-case scenarios. These never happen, and I just end up wasting mental and emotional energy. I also tend to have a certain idea of how things should work and how people should act, and I get very bent out of shape when these standards are not conformed to. I am having to learn that it is alright to have standards but unrealistic to expect everyone to conform to them. Finally, I have had to change my perspective on... many things, really, but especially in terms of my own personal power and capability.

The very use of Ne Role, by an SEE as wiki describes gives off distress as described by her in the above hi-light above that is not characteristic of EII.

Distress associated with this function accounts for the SEE's preference to have his pursuits be visible, close, available, and within the reach of his influence.

[Absurd]

What is the potential of a brick?

[Atlast]

...

Maritsa, is english not your first language -? You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings with the individuals in this thread. You don't seem to understand what they're saying - no fault of yours if you can't read the language, but it's to the point where communication seems impossible. Perhaps if that is the problem you should read up in English grammar and the like? Or maybe you should practice your people skills? I don't know, but the way you're responding and treating individuals in this thread from their innocent comments doesn't seem right at all for all your talk of feelings, sincerity and honesty in relations - do you not take criticism well?

[InkStrider]

@InkStrider: You are capable of snark. Seriously, though, Kassie and I have noted similarities before, so it doesn't bother me horribly if someone brings that up. We both fit the "unconventional EII" label, even if the stereotype is kinda stupid to begin with. *cough*TohruHonda*cough* Maybe we just yell about it the loudest?

I guess you'd like to not speak with me; you're welcome to not do so because as it is, you won't either try to understand me or you are blocking me out because I don't meet your idealization; your very ideal of a perfect EII is one you've conjured up in your fantasy, an Ayn Rand loving EIIs; you live in a black box where everything that exists outside of what you will not except is excluded. That seems to include me. Ayn Rand is the person on the boat saying "I'm on the boat, pull up the life lines" she doesn't see anyone else privileged to be saved on that boat with her; got it? I don't despise her or single her out, I'm sure many successes have arisen from her philosophy, but I don't like that people take her as a cult leader and follow and preach about her. She's just another idea among many that have waived change and will continue to do so.

I do things that I don't like and I think that's a true show of someone who does things to not make themselves feel good then you're doing it for the cause and not for the glory.

Lol, I think that it is you who prefer not speaking to me, not I to you. I've tried hard to understand you alright, and I'd been disappointed by my findings. Again, you lack understanding on Rand's philosophy. You want to argue about that, do it in the Ayn Rand thread and we'll analyze it there. I don't exactly feel like wasting much more time on you though.

You have served a very good purpose, in that in expressing your rather extreme views, you sparked good debate on common (and less-commonly) committed errors, and aided us in raising our own awareness. I would have liked to return the favor, if only you had not deemed it a gift from the devil.

[anndelise]

What do you do or want to do? Then please go ahead. I CAN do the things I do, that is why I do them. I like being responsible, so I guess a lot of things I do are out of responsibility.

Do you have any contributions to make to this thread or are you going to continue to pick on me?

My point to you, Maritsa, is that you get something out of helping others. You try to play the martyr, try to tell us that you get nothing from it, but in fact, you DO.

Yet you're so willing to say that someone is being selfish because they openly admit that they get something out of helping others. That helping others helps them feel good about themselves, or helps them feel good about their actions, or that the helpfulness tends to come back in some way.

You say there is no value in knowing that you get something from helping others.

I say that there is value, and that knowing that we do get something out of helping others often makes us more willing to help others. If for no other reason than that by doing so helps reieve the pressure that our personal values apply on us when we see someone in need. The end result is the same. But no, you say, there is no value in that end result.



My other point, is that you are a hypocrite, Martisa, straight up.

You insist that EII are angels, martyrs, who do things for people without getting anything out of helping them. Who do it because they are supposed to, because they have to, because they are unable to stand up for themselves, because they have no desire to stand up for themselves. And yet, You allow yourself to say no, to stand up for your own needs, to follow your own pursuits, etc. But if another self-typed EII does that..oh no..Maritsa says that they can't be EII!!!

You say that Ryene is not EII because she wants other people to do what she considers the right thing to do. Yet, You also want others to do what you consider the right thing to do. And somehow, despite that, you allow yourself to type yourself as EII.

Do you have any clue how much of a hypocrite you are?



And my other point, which I've tried before to point out to you, and which you keep trying to pass over, is that actions speak louder than words.....except when it comes to you. Because you're all about making sure that you tell people how good and great, and humanistic and idealistic you are. I swear, Martisa, I've never met an EII before that felt such a strong need to inform everyone of what s/he does...of seeking the acknowledgment and praise of others for what s/he does. The one's I've met do what they do...and that's it. It's such a natural part of them that they don't think about it, don't go around telling everyone else about it. Their deeds just reflections of who they are...not their words.

So tell me, Maritsa, shall I retype you, just as you retype others, because you don't fit my experience and ideas of FiNe?

Or will you finally open your mind up, and display at least a little bit of Ne on this forum?

[Reuben]

You say that Ryene is not EII because she wants other people to do what she considers the right thing to do.

Maritsa, is this really your point of view?

[Reuben]

Maritsa, I have a few observations:

1) You do not understand the message behind Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". If you did, you will be agreeing with her instead of disagreeing with her.
2) You may be an unhealthy individual. Why do you drag yourself to do something because people need it? If you really love to serve people, you will wake up at 5 am every morning because you can't wait to love them. "I have food you do not know of." Can you be filled up with the work that you do, or do you see it as a necessary drain on you?
That being said, I used the word 'may' because this may not be how you are now, or always, for that matter.
3) You get misunderstood by people a lot. You may also misunderstand people a lot. If you know you are right, speak one line, and let your life defend itself.

[Reuben]

@ Ryene

EII with 60/40 Ne/Se split, but you are developing Se because you see the need for it in your life. This is my opinion of what I see/observe of you in this thread and elsewhere. Your exactitude of language (particularity with grammar and spelling) is one detail that stands you out from Kassie. I don't want to make a big fuss of it, but it may indicate that you are EII while Kassie is ESI. Let me know if this makes sense; you may not need/want an explanation for my reasoning.

[anndelise]

You say that Ryene is not EII because she wants other people to do what she considers the right thing to do.

Maritsa, is this really your point of view?

I'm open to other interpretations of the following.
Please keep in mind that Maritsa's agenda has been to 'prove' that Ryene is not EII, and to 'prove' that Ryene is Fi+Se.

*But being you, what is one thing that you would like to see someone do more of? Something that you might suggest to them?

*shrugs* To think and act according to the way I think is right.

Ah so you want to be considered the most visible role when others offer you ideas or insight in situations; as in you want to be the one who decides for yourself what will work for you?

[Beautiful sky]

I'm open to other interpretations of the following.
Please keep in mind that Maritsa's agenda has been to 'prove' that Ryene is not EII, and to 'prove' that Ryene is Fi+Se.

Sure, why wouldn't I admit that I have an agenda; everyone here is here for a reason and I'm honest about saying why I'm here and it's not only to type Ryene, you haven't noticed, it's to type as many people as I can.

This ridiculous, uncaring and lack of concern for my energy by you in this thread has not only diverted the purpose of this thread, for which you have no concern for and has drained my energy in this senseless and pointless debate. If you don't continue to stop this, I'm putting you on ignore. Your kind of Ne is not mine, I'm a rational/judging type and I make decisions, come to conclusions and you're wasting my time by not being open enough to understand this. How I use Ne is me APPLYING my insight into people and situations; my very application is a way for me to incorporate my ideas and come to conclusions, to find solutions; My Ne doesn't go around picking up on impressions of people, and then so flagrantly pointing their short comings to them, which is what you attempt to do here, but your very narrowness of perception is in not seeing exactly how I use my Ne and why.

. I don't exactly feel like wasting much more time on you though.

Are you happy about having diverted the intentions of this thread? Are you please about your terrible actions?

This back and forth between two of you above has absolutely drained my energy and is making me sick with tiredness at having to dodge answers and thoughts between the two of you. You're both highly inconsiderate human beings who lack understanding of EII's purpose, which is to make use of her skills and understandings in utilization of Ne, which is what I'm doing here by trying to understand Ryene's type, to pull the puzzle pieces together in a big picture. And because of this, you both have behaved like jerks to me.

[anndelise]

Sure, why wouldn't I admit that I have an agenda; everyone here is here for a reason and I'm honest about saying why I'm here and it's not only to type Ryene, you haven't noticed, it's to type as many people as I can.

Since you tend to ...conveniently....ignore the points of posts... I'll remind you the context of the above:

You say that Ryene is not EII because she wants other people to do what she considers the right thing to do. Yet, You also want others to do what you consider the right thing to do. And somehow, despite that, you allow yourself to type yourself as EII.

You're a hypocrite, Maritsa.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

@ RyeneEII with 60/40 Ne/Se split, but you are developing Se because you see the need for it in your life. This is my opinion of what I see/observe of you in this thread and elsewhere. Your exactitude of language (particularity with grammar and spelling) is one detail that stands you out from Kassie. I don't want to make a big fuss of it, but it may indicate that you are EII while Kassie is ESI. Let me know if this makes sense; you may not need/want an explanation for my reasoning.

I'm not sure Socionics works that way, but it's an interesting thought. Also, thanks for your earlier analysis. I'm mostly browsing through my phone these days, so I don't always get to every post or elaborate to the degree I wanted. It's funny that you bring up the language thing, though. Kassie commented on it some time back.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I'm open to other interpretations of the following.Please keep in mind that Maritsa's agenda has been to 'prove' that Ryene is not EII, and to 'prove' that Ryene is Fi+Se.

The part you quoted did strike me as selective interpretation; but let me provide a little background. This started back in Reuben's EII thread, here. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...le-description Also, this seems relevant. Sorry for the formatting issues.

Being Territorial: Pretty much, what¡¯s mine is mine, and what I have an attachment to is ¡°mine¡±. I get jealous easily where friends are concerned. I¡¯m not usually confrontational about it, though, because I don¡¯t like people getting mad at me. If a family member is involved, it¡¯s another story (I can be quite argumentative). I will try to avoid openly infringing on others¡¯ territory, since I figure it¡¯d make them mad like it does me. I¡¯m very picky about people going through stuff in my room, but that¡¯s because I hid all sorts of ¡°contraband¡± growing up. The fact that my mother used to use what we cared about against us may have influenced my feelings on this subject. I keep my stories very close and quiet so that she cannot use them to manipulate me into doing something.Being Forceful: It¡¯s fun being intimidating and having people afraid of me. Of course, few people are anymore. In high school, I had a ¡°pet human¡± who¡* needed to grow a pair. I treated him poorly, even taking advantage of my position over him to bitch him out once. I have come to feel bad about my behavior toward him. I was also a physically violent person, which isn¡¯t really type-related. I never did it to females, though; I always figured they¡¯d hurt me back. It was done when I was irritated at someone or just for the heck of it.Being in Power: A lot of it may be upbringing, but some of it is just me. I was abused as a kid, so I don¡¯t really trust anyone but myself to know what¡¯s best for me (this also figures into wanting control). I pride myself on noticing and ignoring blatant emotional manipulation (like sucking up). I generally feel that the world is out to get me given the chance, so I try to avoid giving people information that they could later use to manipulate me (like divulging weaknesses). I also tend to avoid showing emotional weakness unless I really trust someone. I don¡¯t know if there¡¯s anyone I¡¯d actually feel safe crying in front of. People will hear me say things like, ¡°He really pissed me off¡±, not, ¡°He hurt me.¡± I do try to somewhat dominate certain friends, and I think it could be explained as counterphobic behavior; if I take control, they become less of a threat. If I do show weakness toward/around people, it¡¯s because I don¡¯t consider them a threat.Having Control: I want to call the shots. I want to have the choice. I despise being told what to do, especially if you don¡¯t have the authority to do so. If you do tell me what to do (outside of a supervisor-worker setting), my instinct is to disregard it and so remind you who holds the power over me, even if that action would cause me harm. I don¡¯t usually follow through with that, but the urge is there. Depending on the person involved, I may remind them that they don¡¯t have the right to order me around. Wanting influence over others figures into this and being in power.Well, this is longer and more revelatory than planned. Ah well.

[anndelise]

Ryene, just so I understand, when

To think and act according to the way I think is right.

Ah so you want to be considered the most visible role when others offer you ideas or insight in situations; as in you want to be the one who decides for yourself what will work for you?

Where in what I just wrote did you read any of that?

Would the quote from reuben's eii thread apply to this?
I mean, does it answer the question you asked Maritsa?
Or was it meant to be background of why maybe Gamma SF instead of Delta NF?
(just trying to understand, sorry if it came out off)

[Beautiful sky]

Since you tend to ...conveniently....ignore the points of posts... I'll remind you the context of the above:

You're a hypocrite, Maritsa.

And you're a jerk.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Ryene, just so I understand, when Would the quote from reuben's eii thread apply to this? I mean, does it answer the question you asked Maritsa?Or was it meant to be background of why maybe Gamma SF instead of Delta NF?(just trying to understand, sorry if it came out off)

That situation is why she's trying to place me in SEE right now. It's true that I want the final say, and that I want others to think, feel, and act the way I consider to be "correct" at the time. But she was pretty blatantly twisting it around to fit her preconceived views of me, and that's what I reacted to in the post you quoted.

[anndelise]

This ridiculous, uncaring and lack of concern for my energy by you in this thread has not only diverted the purpose of this thread, for which you have no concern for and has drained my energy in this senseless and pointless debate.

Well, you're sorta right, here.
I currently lack concern and care for your energy, as you've lacked concern and care for the people you judge and twist words of.
Trying to point out to you your basic errors is draining of my energy as well, and, as others keep telling me, it's senseless and pointless to attempt to communicate with you.
I suppose they are right.

If you don't continue to stop this, I'm putting you on ignore.

By all means...ignore me. It would reduce by one person how often your errors are pointed out to you. I'm quite sure that that would be freeing for you....to not have to concern yourself with such petty things as your errors when judging others.

Your kind of Ne is not mine

Damn straight it's not. Mine is being open-minded and considering other options, other interpretations before jumping to a conclusion based on false understandings.
Yours is...um...well, honestly, I'm not sure what Ne you've actually shown.

I'm a rational/judging type and I make decisions, come to conclusions

Please don't confuse you're supposed rationality as being the same as being reasonable or sensible.
Because you're not. Not reasonable nor sensible.

And yes, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you are a judging type, quick to come to conclusions, quick to project those conclusions onto others, and very slow in reasoning out of those jumped conclusions and projections. But that certiainly wouldn't be proof of your EII-ess.

and you're wasting my time by not being open enough to understand this.

Yes, again, I'm aware now that having your errors, flaws, and lack of Ne, pointed out to you is a waste of your (and my) time.

How I use Ne is me APPLYING my insight into people and situations; my very application is a way for me to incorporate my ideas and come to conclusions, to find solutions; My Ne doesn't go around picking up on impressions of people, and then so flagrantly pointing their short comings to them, which is what you attempt to do here, but your very narrowness of perception is in not seeing exactly how I use my Ne and why.

Yes, another difference between my Ne and your supposed Ne.
Mine is used to help me understand those around me, understand the ideas, understand the problems, understand the situations.
Your supposed Ne seems to be useful only for justifying your categorizations and judgments of others.

I'll stick with my Ne over yours, any day!!

Are you happy about having diverted the intentions of this thread? Are you please about your terrible actions?

Maritsa, are you happy about twisting people's words? About misapplication of categories? About judging others so wrongly? About ignoring your flawed understanding? Are you happy that your actions don't match your words? Are you happy about having to constantly tell everyone over and over how much of an idealist and humanist you are...because your actions don't speak for themselves?

This back and forth between two of you above has absolutely drained my energy and is making me sick with tiredness at having to dodge answers and thoughts between the two of you.

Yes, I'm sure it must be exhausting to feel the need to dodge answering questions given you.
To feel the need to dodge understanding people's points.
To feel the need to dodge other people's thoughts.
To feel the need to dodge altering your understandigs/perceptions.
etc etc
Perhaps..try not dodging.
Perhaps..try answering the questions posed to you.

You're both highly inconsiderate human beings who lack understanding of EII's purpose, which is to make use of her skills and understandings in utilization of Ne, which is what I'm doing here by trying to understand Ryene's type, to pull the puzzle pieces together in a big picture. And because of this, you both have behaved like jerks to me.

Perhaps if you spent more time understanding the people you are attempting to categorize,
perhaps if you spent more time listening to what they said,
perhaps if you were more open-minded about possible misinterpretations of yours,
then people wouldn't be responding to you in such a way that makes you feel like they are being jerks.

[anndelise]

That situation is why she's trying to place me in SEE right now. It's true that I want the final say, and that I want others to think, feel, and act the way I consider to be "correct" at the time. But she was pretty blatantly twisting it around to fit her preconceived views of me, and that's what I reacted to in the post you quoted.

Ok, I guess I can see why she might have the agenda.
FTR, my reaction wasn't so much against the agenda...as the twisting, not just of your words, but of InkStrider's as well.
I apologize to you if my....'unable-to-contain-it-ness'...regarding Maritsa, overcame me and derailed your thread. It had been building up over a couple of similar recent threads, and just exploded finally into this one. I would not be opposed if you asked a moderator to separate these interactions from your thread.

[InkStrider]

Are you happy about having diverted the intentions of this thread? Are you please about your terrible actions?

. Do you really think this is going to work? Alright, I feel so terribly bad about my terrible, terrible actions. Spank me! Please...

You're both highly inconsiderate human beings who lack understanding of EII's purpose, which is to make use of her skills and understandings in utilization of Ne, which is what I'm doing here by trying to understand Ryene's type, to pull the puzzle pieces together in a big picture. And because of this, you both have behaved like jerks to me.

Uh huh. I am a highly inconsiderate human being who lack understanding of the EII grand purpose. Shoot me.

Alright I'm done with these childish accusations. I don't want to have you pulling your hair out over me. Back onto serious mode.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Ok, I guess I can see why she might have the agenda.FTR, my reaction wasn't so much against the agenda...as the twisting, not just of your words, but of InkStrider's as well.

Ok.

I apologize to you if my....'unable-to-contain-it-ness'...regarding Maritsa, overcame me and derailed your thread. It had been building up over a couple of similar recent threads, and just exploded finally into this one. I would not be opposed if you asked a moderator to separate these interactions from your thread.

I don't mind people debating her in this thread, especially when it was created in response to her; I'd just prefer it was ultimately more about me, it being my thread and all. I appreciate the apology, and no worries about thread-splitting.

[ashlesha]

fwiw running through contingincies and possibilities but being driven nuts by it rather than enjoying it is something I relate to.

[anndelise]

I tend to imagine situations playing out, usually worst-case scenarios. These never happen, and I just end up wasting mental and emotional energy.

fwiw running through contingincies and possibilities but being driven nuts by it rather than enjoying it is something I relate to.

imo (in this case it doesn't necessarily reflect socionics), I would say that imagining situations, playing them out, trying to figure out what you would do if X happens, or Y, or such....I would say that that has more to do with Dynamic elements rather than Static elements. With Static elements, we're focusing on things that are relatively stable and consistent. Running worst case scenarios and figuring out contingencies is trying to figure out unstable, new, movement/action-oriented information.

That Static types aren't all that familiar with consciously, deliberately, dealing with, sorting through, and processing this kind of information would likely lead to some insecurities and doubts, in the process...particularly, imo, F Statics...who would likely be more emotionally and cognitively affected by such scenarios. And, who would likely need it more due to being in a potentially high emotional state should the scenario actually present itself. Having an action plan ahead of time, then, would aid the Static type in responding to the situation at the moment. While a Dynamic type would find it easier to develop, and modify, an action plan as things develop in a particular direction, rather than needing to plan it ahead of time.

For XeFi, they'd likely run through the scenarios, but when/if the moment came, all that planning would go right out the door.
I'm not sure about FiXe, but I'd think that they would actually do better at following the plan if the moment came.

The biggest issue, is that when trying to figure out numerous possible scenarios and ways that things can go, there's a darned good possibility that none of those scenarios present themselves at all. Which would lead to a feeling of 'wasted energy'. Except that having a plan for imagined scenarios can give a sense of relief...so would it really have been totally a waste?

I also think that Delta NFs, with their strong and vital Ni/Fe would be the ones who'd come up with more possible situations that could go wrong, more than a Gamma SF would..who would be more concerned with what's happening now, rather than some unforseen future.

Don't think that I'm dissing Gamma SF by this comment. Gamma SF wouldn't be wasting as much time, energy, and emotion trying to figure out all those possibilities. They would, ideally, rely on Gamma NT's to inform them of how things are likely to go. And since Gamma NT's are quite familiar with dealing with this type of stuff, they wouldn't be as caught up in all the many possible scenarios that Delta NFs could come up with.

Meanwhile, Delta NFs could use the calming influence of Delta STs who'd be trying to get the Delta NFs to focus on what's happening here and now, and also maybe how to head off most of those future scenarios now, thus preventing them from even occuring.

[golden]

Description of unhealthy E2

With apologies to Ryene for further derailment and a comment that Ryene and kassie seem like v good examples of INFj even if there is no such thing as an INFj

Twos’ inner development may be limited by their “shadow side”—pride, self-deception, the tendency to become over-involved in the lives of others, and the tendency to manipulate others to get their own emotional needs met. Transformational work entails going into dark places in ourselves, and this very much goes against the grain of the Two’s personality structure, which prefers to see itself in only the most positive, glowing terms.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle facing Twos, Threes, and Fours in their inner work is having to face their underlying Center fear of worthlessness. Beneath the surface, all three types fear that they are without value in themselves, and so they must be or do something extraordinary in order to win love and acceptance from others. In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.

Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”

Average Levels
Level 4: Want to be closer to others, so start "people pleasing," becoming overly friendly, emotionally demonstrative, and full of "good intentions" about everything. Give seductive attention: approval, "strokes," flattery. Love is their supreme value, and they talk about it constantly.

Level 5: Become overly intimate and intrusive: they need to be needed, so they hover, meddle, and control in the name of love. Want others to depend on them: give, but expect a return: send double messages. Enveloping and possessive: the codependent, self-sacrificial person who cannot do enough for others—wearing themselves out for everyone, creating needs for themselves to fulfill.

Level 6: Increasingly self-important and self-satisfied, feel they are indispensable, although they overrate their efforts in others' behalf. Hypochondria, becoming a "martyr" for others. Overbearing, patronizing, presumptuous.

Unhealthy Levels
Level 7: Can be manipulative and self-serving, instilling guilt by telling others how much they owe them and make them suffer. Abuse food and medication to "stuff feelings" and get sympathy. Undermine people, making belittling, disparaging remarks. Extremely self-deceptive about their motives and how aggressive and/or selfish their behavior is.

Level 8: Domineering and coercive: feel entitled to get anything they want from others: the repayment of old debts, money, sexual favors.

Level 9: Able to excuse and rationalize what they do since they feel abused and victimized by others and are bitterly resentful and angry. Somatization of their aggressions result in chronic health problems as they vindicate themselves by "falling apart" and burdening others. Generally corresponds to the Histrionic Personality Disorder and Factitious Disorder.

[InkStrider]

Ok. I don't mind people debating her in this thread, especially when it was created in response to her; I'd just prefer it was ultimately more about me, it being my thread and all. I appreciate the apology, and no worries about thread-splitting.

I'll make it up to you for the thread derail.

I don't really know enough about you in order to type you, but I'll do a rough guideline as to how I differentiate between EIIs and ESIs. There is a different feel to the way EIIs and ESIs I know respond to teasing. ESIs are relatively more sarcastic then EIIs, more inclined to state it as it is, more inclined to blurt out whatever they think and feel to people they feel comfortable with. Which is why ESIs are stereotypically known for being judgmental. They are quick to decide how a particular person/action makes them feel, making a relatively quick assessment. EIIs on the other hand come off as less certain, more inclined to doubt. Ne possibly, maybe, could be, etc. would all come into play in the assessment of a particular situation. EIIs need more gradual coaxing and probing in order to get them to reveal to you what they really think, and their thoughts show a consideration of the various facets of a situation (But, ifs, on the other hand). Both types judge of course, except with ESIs I feel that they come to a conclusion in a way that leaves me room for doubt, whereas the EII conclusion I feel more well-considered due to their consideration of many more factors.

Cognitive styles mention that the ESI first draws near to a person, then moves away, seeming to probe the individual from all sides, cutting off those who could let them down. Could be due to Se probing. The ESI feels to me tougher and more forceful. And during interaction more concrete and to the point. Which at times leaves me stumped in ways of continuing the conversation, whereas with EIIs, the Ne does provide a relatively steady stream of "feed" for me to "build on", hence conversation seemingly smoother. This is however, subject to a level of comfort and common ground between the EII and I.

And I guess this is one of the key indicators, flow of communication. LSEs have Ni PoLR, which means that they are inclined to be very process based (and hence long-winded) in their descriptions and explanations. Though this can be argued as common communication ability, EIIs seem to be very patient in knowing how to complement that very naturally with me, slotting in affirmation to show that they are following my thoughts until I come to my point. They then slot in their personal views, which provide additional "feed" for me to consider. With weak Ne types, I'm more inclined to feel that I have not explored my thoughts as completely as I would like to. With non Fi valuing types, I feel that my personal feelings aren't being considered as deeply as I would like to. With EIIs, I tend to gain both insight and personal understanding.

Hope this helps.

ETA: That said, I haven't had as much interaction with ESIs as I would like, so what I have written may be slightly skewed. Both types can come off as sarcastic, and EIIs I think can be very much so if pushed too far, whereas the ESI more so as a common defense.

[ashlesha]

With apologies to Ryene for further derailment and a comment that Ryene and kassie seem like v good examples of INFj even if there is no such thing as an INFj

ryene was the one asking for opinions, but uh... thanks for the plug?

[717495]

Fi ethics are fit on the objectivist/subjective end of the axis like the other introverted functions, so there's nothing wrong with Ryene as Fi.

[golden]

ryene was the one asking for opinions, but uh... thanks for the plug?

Oh. It's just that in the thread there was mention of you both as atypical EIIs or something like that, and I think based on the people I've considered to be possibly EII in real life, you both fit better into that typing than some others ahem do. And you are both being aggressively retyped in such a helpful way.

[ashlesha]

i wish it was aggressively, instead of passively.

[golden]

i wish it was aggressively, instead of passively.

Hm. I was just mentioning elsewhere how I experience certain behaviors, and it seems I find them aggressive where others would call it something else.

[Beautiful sky]

That situation is why she's trying to place me in SEE right now. It's true that I want the final say, and that I want others to think, feel, and act the way I consider to be "correct" at the time. But she was pretty blatantly twisting it around to fit her preconceived views of me, and that's what I reacted to in the post you quoted.

There's nothing wrong/right about being any type; type is related to function not to which is better/worse than the other. I'm merely pointing out, even though this is not possible for Se types to observe because they don't see things in relation to themselves very well and don't change something that they get stuck into (as also in application of stereotypes), it's hard to convince and persuade them to see the facts if they haven't come to that particular understanding on their own. I don't see you rationalizing, applying anything I'm saying about Se and Ne to yourself. I just see you conjuring support of your type and again, if this is so than just say it.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

There's nothing wrong/right about being any type; type is related to function not to which is better/worse than the other.

Nowhere have I stated that EII is good and SEE is bad. Why do you assume that my unwillingness to listen to you is based on fear or villification of the type you're suggesting? Maybe I just think you're wrong.

I'm merely pointing out, even though this is not possible for Se types to observe because they don't see things in relation to themselves very well and don't change something that they get stuck into (as also in application of stereotypes), it's hard to convince and persuade them to see the facts if they haven't come to that particular understanding on their own. I don't see you rationalizing, applying anything I'm saying about Se and Ne to yourself.

Of course I'm not applying your analyses to myself. I think your understanding of the theory is flawed.

I just see you conjuring support of your type and again, if this is so than just say it.

What, for myself? From others? Others can do what they want; I appreciate the agreement, but I'm not twisting anyone's arm to get it. As for myself, of course I'm going to argue for my self-typing. I agree that not everything seems to fit; but I'm not going to change my type due to a poorly-reasoned argument.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

To those who have provided analyses, thank you. Some of it went over my head, I admit. I can't really do them justice on a mobile phone, so I'll have to wait until I'm on my laptop.

[Beautiful sky]

Nowhere have I stated that EII is good and SEE is bad. Why do you assume that my unwillingness to listen to you is based on fear or villification of the type you're suggesting? Maybe I just think you're wrong.

Because of the way you're closed off to the considerations or maybe because it presents too many ideas.

Of course I'm not applying your analyses to myself. I think your understanding of the theory is flawed.

I'm trying not to include any subjective angles and only provide you with an idea of how Se/Ne work together as base and role functions and applying that to your posts so that you can see how those go together.

The question is do you require a reasoned argument or to be persuaded?

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Because of the way you're closed off to the considerations or maybe because it presents too many ideas.

Or maybe I think your understanding of the theory is flawed and that your explanations should therefore not be trusted.

I'm trying not to include any subjective angles and only provide you with an idea of how Se/Ne work together as base and role functions and applying that to your posts so that you can see how those go together.

See above; it applies here, too.

The question is do you require a reasoned argument or to be persuaded?

When changing views is involved, what doesn't require persuasion of some kind or another? A reasonable argument is a good start. Even if I still disagree with the person, I prefer to know that, by my estimation, they have a decent grasp on the theory. Honestly, you're not going to convince me of my supposed SEE-ness. If you are continuing this in hope of doing so, you're wasting your time; and you're free to withdraw if that doesn't appeal to you.

[Beautiful sky]

Or maybe I think your understanding of the theory is flawed and that your explanations should therefore not be trusted.

Fe...demonstration. By ignoring Fe, an EII trusts until they are given a reason not to. My explanations come from wikisoicon, do you not trust that site ether?