LII-LSE Mirage/Illusionary relations (INTj + ESTj)

[Airman]

I´m into this LII girl.

According to Socionics theory, could this relationship be a good one?

Thanks in advance for sharing your views.

[Suz]

In my experience, there was a HUGE clash between an LSE ex-boss of mine and an LII coworker. The LSE boss wanted to pursue an idea, the LII thought it was impossible and that she was wasting time on this "wild goose chase" as she put it (and she actually said it to his face). The LSE boss took it as a deep personal insult, and dismissed her on the spot.

That said, i am still of the opinion that you are not LSE, so stop worrying about types and just see how this person makes you feel and how your interaction goes (as the great mimosa pudica once said).

[DirectorAbbie]

I've never been romantically interested in a LII, but I grew up with one.

An LSE working with an LII can be very productive. + + + = something that works well, makes sense, looks right, and is creative.

I have yet to find an illusionary couple. I would think it would get boring.

[MatthewZ]

Like Duality, Illusionary has the effect of each partner being able to cover the other's weak spot, notably their PoLR. However, unlike Duality, Semi-duality, and Activity, it lacks the "spark" caused each partner appealing to the other's DS.

As others have said, explore the relationship rather than trying to predict it with Socionics. There's more to compatibility than simply the individuals' psychological types. Illusionary is usually a positive relationship, so go ahead and explore.

[crazedrat]

It's a good relationship. Research shows illusory and contrary relationships have the longest lasting marriages, not duality. Interpret that how you will, it's still a good relationship.

[Beautiful sky]

I value my illusionary relations because they give me lots of Si, in fact, overload of it to the point where we aren't as productive in our daily lives and emphasize way too much on relaxing; we really know how to deactivate each other, but what I don't like about this relations is that we butt heads when it comes to our values and outlooks about things; I can never seem to use Fi and be myself without getting into arguments over Fe values; we see things from two different points of views; while I value more of helping others and being more humanist, Fe values more individualistic, live life for yourself and don't worry about other's approach. I am me, I worry about others. I don't want to change me, I want to find ways to better me (become a healthy version of myself).

I support my views with the standpoint of morals and they do it from ethics, so not all the things I see as good/bad agrees with their views of right/wrong; so we do get in some heavy arguments with regards to religion and it's role in society, spirituality, political points of views, Alpha's are a lot more willing to sacrifice extermination of humanity to care for environment, while I support finding technological solutions to care and find solutions to better the lives of humanity.

[Blaze]

It's a good relationship. Research shows illusory and contrary relationships have the longest lasting marriages, not duality. Interpret that how you will, it's still a good relationship.

that's interesting. where did you find that?

my mom LSE and brother LII have a good relation. LII gets annoyed with mom though for her Te i think. but maybe that's just because they are mother and son. she gets annoyed with him for his slowness and pondering of things.

[Airman]

thanks for the replies

I know of course there´s much more to a relationship than socionics and I am not particularly trusting of these closed systems of patterns to determine my own life; in fact I see socionics and enneagram as good as long as they prove effective but I never refrain from something because of these theories. Anyway it´s good to have as much information as possible to predict likely outcomes in a purely theoretical manner, something that can be stored and kept for use later if a situation deems it fitting.

at first I was very much repelled by these closed systems which are mainly , such as enneagram and socionics, until other people showed me they could be useful and that they really worked. I´m usually skeptical of any closed system itself when it comes to humans since there are so many factors and subtleties that must be considered in each individual.

[Suz]

It's a good relationship. Research shows illusory and contrary relationships have the longest lasting marriages, not duality. Interpret that how you will, it's still a good relationship.

What "research" is this??

Wasn't the consensus in another thread that contrary is one of the worst relationships to have?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

That shouldn't be too bad.

I think what people have to realize is that, extremes don't happen often in life. Most people are going to seem very confusing, and complicated/complex, and ambiguous- with so many mixed messages- like a hard math problem to figure out. And we remember the simple, pure moments we have when we just 'knew' - but those times are rare.

And well with socionics types it's the same way. There are a lot of 'inbetween' variations between dual and conflictors, where many other factors come into play that have little to do with psychological compatibility. When it all comes down to it, is you have to ask yourself if you yourself enjoy this person or not. What anybody else thinks doesn't matter. (and yes, this is a very cliched 'Beta' perspective I think but oh well =p) If you feel wishy-washy before it begins, then the relationship itself will probably turn out to be one of ambivalence and wishy washyness. If you just feel excited and energetic and want to be around that person, and you look forward to being with them, then you know you're on to something. Just trust your own feelings. You can't 'think a person out.' You have to FEEL them out.

It's quite sad as how 'intelligent' we've prided ourselves to be, so many people are emotionally fragile. Use your raw instincts, and forget about mental masturbation like a typical middle class white nerd.

[intjguy]

I dislike people in general. I don't even know why I signed up for this shit.

[DirectorAbbie]

I dislike people in general. I don't even know why I signed up for this shit.

How do you know you're LII?

[Jarno]

It's a good relationship. Research shows illusory and contrary relationships have the longest lasting marriages, not duality. Interpret that how you will, it's still a good relationship.

Interesting. do you have a source, I want to read more about this.

[intjguy]

How do you know you're LII?

I don't. I've just taken a lot of online tests that say I am. Reading all the descriptions seemed pretty accurate if not 100%.

A lot of people say those online tests are inaccurate, but I believe they're 75% accurate. Only 1 out of 4 of my friends who've taken the test really had sporadic results, and descriptions I couldn't see match.

But it's like, socionics could be so deep, that I have no idea.

[DirectorAbbie]

I don't. I've just taken a lot of online tests that say I am. Reading all the descriptions seemed pretty accurate if not 100%.

MBTI tests don't count.

[Jarno]

MBTI tests don't count.

often they are more accurate then socionics.

[intjguy]

Honestly, there are so many more important factors than Socionics when it deems to finding Miss Right. There are things called integrity and such that Socionics doesn't cover.

I could say I met an LSE who was hardheaded, had a malleable ego, and completely dishonest.
But I don't use it to generalize other LSEs at all.

[DirectorAbbie]

often they are more accurate then socionics.

Than socionics tests. Socionics is sociology, not psychology. It's easier to make an MBTI test than a socionics test. Socionics and MBTI are under no circumstances the same thing, however, and one must never assume his or her MBTI type is the same as his or her socionics type.

[Jarno]

Than socionics tests. Socionics is sociology, not psychology. It's easier to make an MBTI test than a socionics test. Socionics and MBTI are under no circumstances the same thing, however, and one must never assume his or her MBTI type is the same as his or her socionics type.

sociology and psychology have nothing to do with it. both are type tests to see which of the 16 types you are. wow what a difference.

[intjguy]

Lol yeah dude. Sociology wtf.

[DirectorAbbie]

sociology and psychology have nothing to do with it. both are type tests to see which of the 16 types you are. wow what a difference.

The 16 types of MBTI are different from those of socionics. I thought you knew that.

[Airman]

I dislike people in general. I don't even know why I signed up for this shit.

You´re probably an E5 exactly like this LII girl I´m kind of into. She says the same thing, that she dislikes people in general and being with people in general and feels alone even among people. I think INTJs have something of a very beautiful, scientifically sensitive soul, which makes them special among the Infantile types.

[intjguy]

Hey man, thank you. That was really cool.

[intjguy]

To be frank, I've read some of the Victim/Infantile stuff on wikisocion. I have to say I relate to either of them very little. Maybe one sentence of each category, and Victim some more.

[MatthewZ]

LIIs aren't all misanthropes.

[UDP]

Look at non socionics factors first. Then use socionics to understand their psychological fault lines.

[Crispy]

LIIs aren't all misanthropes.

Just the unhealthy ones. Actually, I would guess most LII's have misanthropic phases, but only the unhealthy ones are consumed by them.

[Jarno]

The 16 types of MBTI are different from those of socionics. I thought you knew that.

no they are basically the same, I thought you knew that.

[DirectorAbbie]

no they are basically the same, I thought you knew that.

If that were so, a person's MBTI type would almost certainly be the same as a person's socionics type, yet this isn't the case.

[krieger]

I can attest to the fact that the INTj-ESTj combo works very well in a best-friends type of relation between two males.

[Airman]

I have an INTJ friend, very good friend, he´s also E5, we´ve been friends for 12 years now, I met him at school.
First I think E1 and E5 tend to get along well, second I wonder if ESTJ and INTJ have the same kind of affinity.

[UDP]

I can attest to the fact that the INTj-ESTj combo works very well in a best-friends type of relation between two males.

Maybe you and Airborne can be friends


friends with benefits



Game?

[Jarno]

If that were so, a person's MBTI type would almost certainly be the same as a person's socionics type, yet this isn't the case.

this is often the case. But if it's not it's rather because of faulty testing then difference in descriptions.

for example: ISTP is called the mechanic in most socionics descriptions and master of tools in MBTI. Doesn't that sound the same to you? There must be ringing a bell that those descriptions might be about the same type of person right?

If you take several socionics test, (which are usually lousy), you'll get several different answers too, does that mean they talk about different types?

edit: I've made a little test to prove my point.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post681909

[Suz]

this is often the case. But if it's not it's rather because of faulty testing then difference in descriptions.

for example: ISTP is called the mechanic in most socionics descriptions and master of tools in MBTI. Doesn't that sound the same to you? There must be ringing a bell that those descriptions might be about the same type of person right?

If you take several socionics test, (which are usually lousy), you'll get several different answers too, does that mean they talk about different types?

edit: I've made a little test to prove my point.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post681909

Disagree with you. Agree with Abbie.

The simple fact that the concept of introversion/extraversion is COMPLETELY different between MBTI and socionics already makes them two very different systems.

In MBTI to judge introversion/extraversion, all you need to do is ask a few questions to find out whether the person tends to be outgoing or quiet, or if the person likes to be around a lot of people or not (which can be pretty relative).

In socionics, you have to look at which functions are being used. And introversion is about using the particular function in relation to oneself vs extraversion which would be reflecting back on the object.

And along similar lines, intuition, sensing, thinking, and feeling all have an introverted version and an extraverted version which are very distinctly different within socionics. In MBTI its almost like a rubic cube where u can just freely dial I vs E, N vs S, T vs F, P vs J, depending on questions being answered. Cant do that in socionics. Why? because the elements are defined differently, and its just a totally different system of describing character.

Sure there are going to be some overlaps in type, but its just because those people happen to be of a type represented by the same letters in each system. It goes along with there being considerable variability among people of each type. In my mind a socionics-MBTI type is sort of like tcaud's dual-types, in that each socionics type can have any of the MBTI types associated with it. OK maybe there might be a predilection for certain MBTI types per a particular socionics type, but thats the idea.

[Jarno]

Disagree with you. Agree with Abbie.

The simple fact that the concept of introversion/extraversion is COMPLETELY different between MBTI and socionics already makes them two very different systems.

In MBTI to judge introversion/extraversion, all you need to do is ask a few questions to find out whether the person tends to be outgoing or quiet, or if the person likes to be around a lot of people or not (which can be pretty relative).

In socionics, you have to look at which functions are being used. And introversion is about using the particular function in relation to oneself vs extraversion which would be reflecting back on the object.

And along similar lines, intuition, sensing, thinking, and feeling all have an introverted version and an extraverted version which are very distinctly different within socionics. In MBTI its almost like a rubic cube where u can just freely dial I vs E, N vs S, T vs F, P vs J, depending on questions being answered. Why? because they are defined differently, and its just a totally different system of describing character.

Sure there are going to be some overlaps in type, but its just because those people happen to be of a type represented by the same letters in each system. It goes along with there being considerable variability among people of each type. In my mind a socionics-MBTI type is sort of like tcaud's dual-types, in that each socionics type can have any of the MBTI types associated with it. OK maybe there might be a predilection for certain MBTI types per a particular socionics type, but thats the idea.

you are misinformed on multiple levels.

Let's start here.

introversion extraversion completely different?

Take for example this:

"introverts are responders, and extraverts are initiaters."

My question to you is, is this a socionics or mbti statement?

[krieger]

Maybe you and Airborne can be friends


friends with benefits



Game?

You can take my place in that if you're so obsessed with the idea.

[Suz]

you are misinformed on multiple levels.

Let's start here.

introversion extraversion completely different?

Take for example this:

"introverts are responders, and extraverts are initiaters."

My question to you is, is this a socionics or mbti statement?

Sounds like socionics to me.

[Jarno]

Sounds like socionics to me.

Nice, because they also use this same statement in 'MBTI step II'. (it's an online course or something)

So now you can conclude for yourself how similar they are and how misinformed the person is who thaught you.

[Airman]

You can take my place in that if you're so obsessed with the idea.

I hear you´re from Netherlands... hoe gaat u?

Do you really have these kind of women there? A friend of mine spent 2 years there, he loved it (really in the most literal sense).

the language seems somewhat complicated but I´d learn if it´s for the better of Nature´s will and women´s will:

[Suz]

Nice, because they also use this same statement in 'MBTI step II'. (it's an online course or something)

So now you can conclude for yourself how similar they are and how misinformed the person is who thaught you.

Well first of all, no particular person taught me. I'm self taught.

Secondly, even though an MBTI course might teach this more correct perspective, what i see happening among the MBTI users in real life (which is where i was first exposed to it), online, and in tests, is introversion/extraversion being determined not by the definition you stated, but by whether someone is loud/quiet, outgoing/not outgoing, etc etc.

Since MBTI typing is so prevalent in the U.S, and MBTI typing ends up delineating the latter more than the way you mentioned, I say MBTI type =/= socionics type. It may have to do with what you also said about mis-testing, but MBTI type is determined by tests. In contrast to socionics.