EII for BulletsandDoves? possible Se PoLR

[Rubicon]

So I think that BulletsandDoves may have Se PoLR. (Can't be bothered putting that in a labcoat-friendly way. :-p)

He avoids confrontation - seems to see arguing as a bad thing, whereas 'other' IEIs on the board (excepting Silverchris, who may be Delta :-p) apparently enjoy that kind of thing, or at least seem to see it as a point of honour to address conflict. B&D isn't in-your-face - the issues he writes about are - which differs from IEIs who are reactive in themselves. He focuses on writing excessively truthful stuff - addressing issues that are important to him. He then usually ignores people's reactions, and goes on to write something else.

In terms of his expression, he basically seems to be about being real - to the extent of facing one's darkest urges or w/e. I think this is a focus on Fi rather than Fe - and deep-held values rather than changeable emotions.

I think there may be an automatic association of Se with anything that pushes the envelope and unsettles people. Those uhh documentaries that force people to watch animals being killed or w/e to raise awareness for a specific cause - surely Fi?

His writings seem Ne-ish imo. He actually manages to address dark material in a light and fluffy manner :-p .. largely through his use of narration (which seems Te?) - which serves to continually remind the reader that they're merely listening to a story - keeps you from getting immersed in the drama of what you're reading. I think Beta NF would prefer to do the opposite - to get people caught up in the emotion. Also, there seems to me to be a heavily moralistic flavour to his writings. :-p Frequent breaks to outline the moral of the story - which further serve to dampen the drama. Speaking of which, I think the recent Adventures thread by GQ would also suggest that B&D doesn't like drama.

Erm, so what do you think?

[Gilly]

Stupid.

[Rubicon]

Also, Si is more about intensity of sensation than Se.

[Gilly]

Errr, not necessarily. Se types are more likely to be real thrill seekers: skydiving, base jumping, etc. Se-valuing extroverts tend to have the highest threshold for stimulation, I think.

[Gilly]

However I think Si valuers are more likely to go in for things like tantric sex, regular drinking, heroin use, and excess in a more sort of every-day fashion, although IME the Se valuers who go this route tend to go completely overboard/self-destructive.

[Aiss]

Also, Si is more about intensity of sensation than Se.

At risk of offending some people, I'd rather say Si is about the quality of sensation as opposed to its intensity, among other things. Si quadras seem calmer to me in that they seek balanced, pleasant sensation rather than extremes - that's not to say they never overdo it, of course.

I don't see the things you do in B&D's posts, or rather - I interpret them differently. I know two LIIs and two EIIs very well in real life, and more rather superficially. There are differences between xIIs in their respective Se-PoLRs and Si-HAs, but I'd say confrontation avoidance thing isn't the dominant in B&D behavior here, it's rather expression in bursts, which once happens is redirected (peak of +Fe). I see neither Ne or Te in his writing style, too.

I also largely disagree with Fi/Fe comments. IEIs seem to be big on the concept of identity - or rather, more vocal and open about it than other types - so it's not just B&D. I don't think the type of documentaries you've mentioned is Fi; I'd rather say in the directness aspect they're Fe, attempting to force an emotional response to change people's behavior - perhaps more Beta than Alpha Fe. But I see how it could be related to Fi-agenda, too.

I'll look at his posts from this angle, but I'm skeptical about it.

[Creepy-male]

However I think Si valuers are more likely to go in for things like tantric sex, regular drinking, heroin use, and excess in a more sort of every-day fashion, although IME the Se valuers who go this route tend to go completely overboard/self-destructive.

I think because Si works by balancing things. It's exactly the same thing as why Si bases can temper themselves because they know it'll feel awful later as when they indulge in "damaging" things because either the consequences later are worth the positive thing now. (Sort of... how I think and weigh things is "This will feel good now"/"This isn't worth how bad it'll feel later", etc, etc)

That's without including substance intake for social reasons in the Alpha quadra (drinking, smoking tobacco, smoking weed, whatever).

So I think if Si is about maintaining a positive relationship between your internal state and your environment, Si bases will always look at it as a net positive, even if it's not necessarily always so consciously weighed. In fact, I think a lot of my self-restraint comes from considering things well beforehand; though I'm not sure what the balance is between thinking and considering well before something comes up, and reflecting and weighing in-the-moment (or just before it, rather ).

This is all assuming you're happy with me being Si base.

[Absurd]

I like you, Rubicon. Hehe

[Rubicon]

However I think Si valuers are more likely to go in for things like tantric sex, regular drinking, heroin use, and excess in a more sort of every-day fashion, although IME the Se valuers who go this route tend to go completely overboard/self-destructive.

Yeah, but I was thinking that using sensation to manipulate is more Si, being that Si valuers generally get more out of everyday sensations.

[Rubicon]

Si quadras seem calmer to me in that they seek balanced, pleasant sensation rather than extremes - that's not to say they never overdo it, of course.

That's based on your conceptions of the quadras, so it's not really relevant.

There are differences between xIIs in their respective Se-PoLRs and Si-HAs, but I'd say confrontation avoidance thing isn't the dominant in B&D behavior here, it's rather expression in bursts, which once happens is redirected (peak of +Fe).

What do you mean by redirected and the peak of Fe etc?

I also largely disagree with Fi/Fe comments. IEIs seem to be big on the concept of identity - or rather, more vocal and open about it than other types - so it's not just B&D.

How do you think B&D focuses on the concept of identity?

I also largely disagree with Fi/Fe comments. IEIs seem to be big on the concept of identity - or rather, more vocal and open about it than other types - so it's not just B&D. I don't think the type of documentaries you've mentioned is Fi; I'd rather say in the directness aspect they're Fe, attempting to force an emotional response to change people's behavior - perhaps more Beta than Alpha Fe. But I see how it could be related to Fi-agenda, too

But I think those types of things are striving to make you personally feel for the animal or w/e .. which is related to Fi imo. A purely emotional reaction would be of no use whatsoever.

[Aiss]

That's based on your conceptions of the quadras, so it's not really relevant.

Actually that's based on my perception of Si, not that it makes it any more relevant than any other perception in general. Having it shared with others would be more relevant, perhaps.

What do you mean by redirected and the peak of Fe etc?

I was referring to what you put as "ignoring people's responses and going to write something else". I imagine you took it for Se-PoLR - avoiding confrontation; what you responded to is how I interpret this. I'm not sure how to put it better; my impression is that the focus is on need for expression itself rather than raising issues, people who focus on the them and seek to start a discussion tend to take part in them. Again, that's something neither of us can know unless B&D clarifies it. And I'm really no expert on Fe, so.

How do you think B&D focuses on the concept of identity?

That's what I see there and what I thought you meant by focus on being real, facing one's dark side. That's another difference in how we view it, perhaps, or just a general case of adding meaning to something.

[Aiss]

But I think those types of things are striving to make you personally feel for the animal or w/e .. which is related to Fi imo. A purely emotional reaction would be of no use whatsoever.

I disagree if we're speaking of the same style of documentaries. Showing explicit and even brutal content there is aimed at disgusting, revolting people, manipulating their emotions to force the message across, also through making them feel sorry for the animal, as opposed to Fi way of putting the issue in ethical context - that's not to say Fi equals morality, but in this particular case it strives to convey it in its terms, rather an appeal to values than emotions. This doesn't mean the issue isn't at all Fi-focused - "bad treatment of animals is evil", but I wouldn't say such sentiment or the will to share it with others ("raise awareness", as it's put) is exclusive to Fi types, and this specific way of conveying it seems very Fe to me in forcing an emotional response.

[Rubicon]

That's what I see there and what I thought you meant by focus on being real, facing one's dark side. That's another difference in how we view it, perhaps, or just a general case of adding meaning to something.

Yeah, I was thinking more in terms of facing dark issues/experiences :-p.. which seem apart from one's identity.

I disagree if we're speaking of the same style of documentaries. Showing explicit and even brutal content there is aimed at disgusting, revolting people, manipulating their emotions to force the message across, also through making them feel sorry for the animal, as opposed to Fi way of putting the issue in ethical context - that's not to say Fi equals morality, but in this particular case it strives to convey it in its terms, rather an appeal to values than emotions. This doesn't mean the issue isn't at all Fi-focused - "bad treatment of animals is evil", but I wouldn't say such sentiment or the will to share it with others ("raise awareness", as it's put) is exclusive to Fi types, and this specific way of conveying it seems very Fe to me in forcing an emotional response.

From the Wiki re Fi types:

Also, these types convey emotions in terms of how they were affected by something (such as "I did not like that"), rather than an extroverted ethics (Fe) approach that would describe the object itself without clear reference to the subject involved (such as "That sucked").

What I meant was that if you merely disgusted and revolted people etc, they'd probably just walk out of the cinema. Well I would if I were watching that type of thing. :-p

[Aiss]

From the Wiki re Fi types:
(...)

What I meant was that if you merely disgusted and revolted people etc, they'd probably just walk out of the cinema. Well I would if I were watching that type of thing. :-p

I understand the quote as pointing out Fi approach to representing an opinion, as opposed to projecting it on the object itself - Fe. I wrote about it elsewhere; it seems to me a rather accurate observation of how these types approach matters of personal preference. What I don't see is how it relates to emotional appeal or lack thereof in context of documentaries.

Disgusting or revolting are a tool for emotional manipulation here, making people feel pity or shame for supposedly taking part in it passively ("you eat meat, you kill animal" kind of thing, or whatever reason animals are being killed for in the first place). It's something I'm disgusted by, not only because it's meant to, but by this kind of attempt to force feelings out of me and yes, manipulate my opinion of the matter by temporary inducing a particular emotional state to get the message across. And yes, I'd walk out of cinema, if I ever found myself there in the first place. I usually do some research about the movie beforehand.

Just because the issue itself might seem to be related to Fi ("it's evil!") doesn't mean it's approached in a Fi way. The same is often used simply to attract attention to someone or something, mostly by more or less refined artists or politicians.

[Beautiful sky]

Nice observation, but that only makes him either SEE or LSE types. Or SLI

[UDP]

this thread should be edited for gayness

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Your view of the functions seems banal and stereotypical to me, Rubicon.

He avoids confrontation - seems to see arguing as a bad thing, whereas 'other' IEIs on the board (excepting Silverchris, who may be Delta :-p) apparently enjoy that kind of thing, or at least seem to see it as a point of honour to address conflict. B&D isn't in-your-face - the issues he writes about are - which differs from IEIs who are reactive in themselves. He focuses on writing excessively truthful stuff - addressing issues that are important to him. He then usually ignores people's reactions, and goes on to write something else.

I just wasn't in that mood that one time. I still like to argue a lot. I also don't consider arguing on the internet 'confrontation.' I consider it debating. Most people on the internet do seem to just want to pick fights though. I just view that as being immature though.

And yes I prefer to be excessively truthful. That's just the type of person I am, I don't think that being truthful is type related. I ignore people's reactions? Dude. I ignored you *one* time because I wasn't in the mood for it and you came up with paragraphs of analyizations of me based upon that. LoL. Well at least I'm interesting enough to be talked about.

Those uhh documentaries that force people to watch animals being killed or w/e to raise awareness for a specific cause - surely Fi?

Stuff like that doesn't bother me. And yes I am an empathetic, compassionate person because I'm a human being.

His writings seem Ne-ish imo. He actually manages to address dark material in a light and fluffy manner :-p .. largely through his use of narration (which seems Te?)

The hell. How? Obviously this perception differs, as Akra and others surely didn't perceive my rape scenes as 'light and fluffly.'

Also, there seems to me to be a heavily moralistic flavour to his writings. :-p

Of course there is. But IEI is an ethical type too.

Frequent breaks to outline the moral of the story - which further serve to dampen the drama.

Yeah true, I don't like drama in real life. I think it's insecure and pretty shrill-y although I mean I guess it happens to us all? I just think that's not type related.

Erm, so what do you think?

That your understanding of the functions is too stereotypical and umm not defined enough? Or something.

[Beautiful sky]

Your view of the functions seems banal and stereotypical to me, Rubicon.



I just wasn't in that mood that one time. I still like to argue a lot. I also don't consider arguing on the internet 'confrontation.' I consider it debating. Most people on the internet do seem to just want to pick fights though. I just view that as being immature though.

And yes I prefer to be excessively truthful. That's just the type of person I am, I don't think that being truthful is type related. I ignore people's reactions? Dude. I ignored you *one* time because I wasn't in the mood for it and you came up with paragraphs of analyizations of me based upon that. LoL. Well at least I'm interesting enough to be talked about.



Stuff like that doesn't bother me. And yes I am an empathetic, compassionate person because I'm a human being.



The hell. How? Obviously this perception differs, as Akra and others surely didn't perceive my rape scenes as 'light and fluffly.'



Of course there is. But IEI is an ethical type too.



Yeah true, I don't like drama in real life. I think it's insecure and pretty shrill-y although I mean I guess it happens to us all? I just think that's not type related.



That your understanding of the functions is too stereotypical and umm not defined enough? Or something.

You don't value anything in terms of stepping over other to get to your goals and when you do you're highly appologetic and concerned about your actions, that's more of an Fi then Fe and I completely agree with Rubicon's doubt about your self typing as IEI. Anyone can be concerned about being truthful and debating, those may not be type related. What I do find to be type related is your complete lack of emphasis on Ti; for IEI Ti is an activation function. You have not yet, thus incorporated any traits of that function.

I don't see you discussing needs or concern for catagories or identification of such...

Usually, IEI would not be offended by your artistic expression, maybe emotionally taken back by it but certainly not something that would shake their beliefs/values, because that is based on Fe not Fi...but seeing the reactions to you from Fi perspective and your feedback on such a reaction, certainly shed some light on you possibly not valuing Fe.

[krieger]

So I think that BulletsandDoves may have Se PoLR. (Can't be bothered putting that in a labcoat-friendly way. :-p)

Huh?

I think you may be on the completely wrong track here. I mean that in the most rubicon-friendly way imaginable.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You don't value anything in terms of stepping over other to get to your goals and when you do you're highly appologetic and concerned about your actions, that's more of an Fi then Fe and I completely agree with Rubicon's doubt about your self typing as IEI.

Noooo it's because I actually still have empathy unlike most of the selfish narcissistic fucked up god for saken human race. Stepping over others seems extremely counter-productive to me. Giving a shit about somebody else other than yourself isn't socionics related. It's also more of a long-term thing that I view with my Ni imo. Yes, revenge and stepping on others is immediately gratifying but the long-term consequences of it is batshit stupid. I still have my Guilt and Empathy because I haven't sold my soul like most Americans.

The only way I'd agree to be EII is if you could fanwank it to be where Dolphin is an LSE and be my dual.

[thePirate]

Your view of the functions seems banal and stereotypical to me, Rubicon.

[Beautiful sky]

Noooo it's because I actually still have empathy unlike most of the selfish narcissistic fucked up god for saken human race. Stepping over others seems extremely counter-productive to me. Giving a shit about somebody else other than yourself isn't socionics related. It's also more of a long-term thing that I view with my Ni imo. Yes, revenge and stepping on others is immediately gratifying but the long-term consequences of it is batshit stupid. I still have my Guilt and Empathy because I haven't sold my soul like most Americans.

The only way I'd agree to be EII is if you could fanwank it to be where Dolphin is an LSE and be my dual.

Please read this...Allie is IEI and you can get a sense of what empathy is in IEI character...

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/482188-post60.html

You're not EII but I do believe that you do have strong humanitarian values...you may be quite young I suppose so the other ego elements haven't hit your realization of your self yet?

Where is your competition loving nature exactly, where you choose which person/event will be successful?...Using Ni with Ti an IEI successfully will highlight which person will win at what and that's just a natural risk/strategic inclination. I don't see these things in you.

Allie in her dual pair will receive options/choices and will decide which one to go with because of her Ni/Ti nature

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/526380-post44.html

[Beautiful sky]

These are not socionics type related things:

1. cursing
2. being lazy
3. being smart/knowledgable
4. valuing truthfulness/honesty
5. debating/arguing
6. Pissing people off is not Se PoLR or any polr.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yeah Maritsa. Good reminder, thanks.

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah Maritsa. Good reminder, thanks.

Loving art is not only for IEI's; Van Gogh was EII, not saying that you are also. I do believe that you're either those types. But, don't hold on to self typing to be IEI just because you think they are the only artists.

[Rubicon]

Who started this stupid thread.

Your view of the functions seems banal and stereotypical to me, Rubicon.

lol maybe

And yes I prefer to be excessively truthful. That's just the type of person I am, I don't think that being truthful is type related. I ignore people's reactions? Dude. I ignored you *one* time because I wasn't in the mood for it and you came up with paragraphs of analyizations of me based upon that. LoL. Well at least I'm interesting enough to be talked about.

It wasn't based on that. It's not personal in the slightest. I'm pretty sure you've ignored bad reactions to you many times.

And yes I am an empathetic, compassionate person because I'm a human being.

I thought the majority of human beings were selfish, godforsaken narcissistic whatevers.

The hell. How? Obviously this perception differs, as Akra and others surely didn't perceive my rape scenes as 'light and fluffly.'

Just the way you were narrating and making witty comments - it kept me from getting too immersed in the story anyway.

Anyway, B&D.. I'm not attacking you. I just honestly think you focus more on Fi. :-p Meh whatever though.

[Rubicon]

Huh?

You were saying you didn't believe in PoLRs in some thread..

I think you may be on the completely wrong track here. I mean that in the most rubicon-friendly way imaginable.

haha ok

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Loving art is not only for IEI's; Van Gogh was EII, not saying that you are also. I do believe that you're neither those types. But, don't hold on to self typing to be IEI just because you think they are the only artists.

I know that. I don't think that. I just like to make fun of it I guess how IEI and faggy internal artistic shit goes together.

Anyway, B&D.. I'm not attacking you.

I know that. I don't feel attacked in the slightest.

I just honestly think you focus more on Fi. :-p Meh whatever though.

And whereas I can see where you'd get that perception of me, I think it stems from a view of socionics that's not objectively and precisely accurate enough. And also not taking into consideration the 'whole picture' of who I really am. Remember, IEIs are great at Fi too, just like INFjs are. We can probably even be very EII like over the internet sometimes, because our unconscious functions can come up to the forefront more.

[Beautiful sky]

I know that. I don't think that. I just like to make fun of it I guess how IEI and faggy internal artistic shit goes together.



I know that. I don't feel attacked in the slightest.



And whereas I can see where you'd get that perception of me, I think it stems from a view of socionics that's not objectively and precisely accurate enough. And also not taking into consideration the 'whole picture' of who I really am. Remember, IEIs are great at Fi too, just like INFjs are. We can probably even be very EII like over the internet sometimes, because our unconscious functions can come up to the forefront more.

No they don't, they don't have our empathy or value our empathy. They don't value Te, things like doing something a certain way.

In your tasks, before you begin doing something, do you work out a plan of action?

[Rubicon]

We can probably even be very EII like over the internet sometimes, because our unconscious functions can come up to the forefront more.

Yeah I guess, but obviously I'm comparing you to other IEIs on here, so..

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

/facepalm.

Empathy is not type-related.

ENTj straight boy Ashton is actually very empathetic. Now I think yes, sometimes he uses that empathy to purposefully know what to say to royally piss somebody off, it's still empathy in that he understands well what other are people feeling. Empathy is a normal human trait that allows us to co-exist together in society.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

In your tasks, before you begin doing something, do you work out a plan of action?

Well I try to but it makes me nervous. Overly planning stuff. I like to be prepared if I have to do something that I don't want to do. But what I'm seeking more is the motivation and willpower to accomplish it in the first place. Also I tried to overly plan my life but it's like unexpected things always happen so it's been a better life lesson for me to just go with the flow.

[Beautiful sky]

/facepalm.

Empathy is not type-related.

ENTj straight boy Ashton is actually very empathetic. Now I think yes, sometimes he uses that empathy to purposefully know what to say to royally piss somebody off, it's still empathy in that he understands well what other are people feeling. Empathy is a normal human trait that allows us to co-exist together in society.

Empathy may be type related. ENTj's value Fi, they may show care and concern.

[thePirate]

No they don't, they don't have our empathy or value our empathy.

I really dont like you sometimes because you say really stupid stuff like this.

[krieger]

You were saying you didn't believe in PoLRs in some thread..

haha ok

[Beautiful sky]

Well I try to but it makes me nervous. Overly planning stuff. I like to be prepared if I have to do something that I don't want to do. But what I'm seeking more is the motivation and willpower to accomplish it in the first place. Also I tried to overly plan my life but it's like unexpected things always happen so it's been a better life lesson for me to just go with the flow.

Ni-know exactly how much time will pass between events, knowing where time is and how things are flowing within time, they watch for events in time and catch them. They don't need to plan excessively. Ni PoLR needs to plan their steps, people with weak Ni...

"The individual prefers to focus on immediate tasks, taking things as they come, rather than try to evaluate the outcome of present trends. Inclination to tell stories or narrate events on a sequential basis, rather than outlining how one event led to another.

He perceives time in an undifferentiated manner: the past, present, and future are all perceived as being in or near the present. When talking about the future, especially one's longer-term plan), the individual treats it as if it were accessible today and often is not aware of all the developments that must happen first.

He generally has a poor sense of how long things will take and what the best amount of time to spend on things is. Therefore it is difficult for him to stay on schedule without extensive, even total, pre-planning."

I really dont like you sometimes because you say really stupid stuff like this.

Imagine me married to a man who constantly tells me that I am naive or weak minded because I care so much...how exactly would that make me feel?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Maritsa, I'm not your dual just because you have a crush on me! We can still like each other and not be in the same quadra. *sigh* But then again I've always thought you were EIE.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, I'm not your dual just because you have a crush on me! We can still like each other and not be in the same quadra. *sigh* But then again I've always thought you were EIE.

lol
I've never seen you before.

But weak Ni is a good start.

Now you're putting me in your quadra? lol

What's next? I'm your dual? back and forth and back and forth

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Are you kidding me? You don't understand socionics. Please read Rick's socionics site here:

Socionics :: Information Elements

[Sueno]

Idk...just the user name bulletsanddoves..that right there says IEI to me..lmao.