Talk, discuss... one country/type please
I heard Turkey is ESTpish
Talk, discuss... one country/type please
I heard Turkey is ESTpish
is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.
Hmm.. russia, eh? I heard russian whores go for 50$ :wink:
is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.
To the extent that such typings make sense - - Germany's (still) ISTj, France is ESFj, Belgium is ISFp, Spain is ESFp.
So I guess France has a lot of ENFj character as well.
Also, perhaps surprisingly, Germany also has a strong INFp streak.
Spain is essentially , so it's ESTp as well.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
US and Britain are usually thought of as Te dominant countries. US more as ENTj. Britain ESTj (or ENTj I guess).
Japan seems to me like potential ISTp country but I'm not expert on Asian cultures so can't say. They can be quite aggressive and expansionist which is not very ISTp.
I have read several times that Finland is ISTp. I'm not sure why Finland is often typed Si primary (because we drink a lot??). I can see the Te creative function though. And not really INTp so I guess ISTp. I have previously said ISTj but I'm starting to think I'm wrong. MBTI ISTJ perhaps. There are lots of routines, rules, and regulations here. On the other hand there is a "breaking the rules is ok if it is needed to get things done but not in other cases" mentality. Militarily Finland has never been aggressive but very defensive/anti-submissive instead. Quite ISTp I guess.
Belgium seems rather ISTp to me than ISFp, Expat. I could be worng, of course, but it is painfully ...as we've both noticed.:wink:
And I always thought French movies were more alpha because they seem more than , cuz in French porn I see on TV women are more of caretakers behaving gently and soft etc, and thats not beta at all. Beta girls would jump on you, wrestle with you, pin you down, then kiss you, lol. And its not just in porn, french entertainment seems just kinda to me.
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And Fins seem to be quietly strange as well as strangely quiet. Proof (of sorts): http://www.finst.ee/images/isokahvi.jpg
If it were always September in Finland, I'd move there tomorrow.
Since Germany is bound to pop up in this type of thread, I'll say what I know of it. First-hand experience and so on. Here goes.
-- very orderly. Tidies up and cleans. Does it not because "one is supposed to", but because that way life gets more enjoyable; i.e., can't relax when everything is untidy and filthy.
-- work first, fun afterwards. Separates life in two categories: one is official (i.e., work), one is private (i.e., fun). Behaves differently in those categories.
-- secretly soppy and sentimental.
-- tense.
-- very idealistic and in a way very conscientious. There was a corruption scandal a few years back - for our standards, a HUGE scandal - but in Russia (where I was living at the time) the newspapers were slightly bemused how one could make such a fuss about what seemed a comparatively normal, everyday case of corruption, really nothing out of the ordinary.
-- takes things too seriously, gets absorbed by details, is unable to see the bigger picture and move on. In this, the total opposite of Britain, where people see the bigger picture and tend to be a bit more relaxed and sloppy (in a good way).
I'll add that I'm not sure if that is particularly German. It could be Germanic - i.e. something that is also noticeable in the German-speaking part of Switzerland and in Scandinavia, Iceland and the Netherlands.
My own part of Germany is hedonistic, open to the world, inventive, friendly and hospitable. ISFp?
American is ESTp, even though is rewards SJ types.
In comparison to the US, I would also add that Germany has a far more laid-back party and socializing culture. Fewer rituals and less pretense, more time spent socializing, less emphasis on appearance and image.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Germany is not ISTj. Absolutely not.
:wink:
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I see Se and Fi in German culture... but I don't know much about it and my Fe is telling me it would be unwise to further elaborate.
I don't see much Se. And do feel free to elaborate.Originally Posted by Joy
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I guess I was taking a more historical perspective... and with that I can get over the Se, but there's no way I can go without mention of the Fi (Fi is very imposing... it's the exact opposite of "live and let live"). In modern Germany I see lots of Ti (Germany is known for its engineering and scientists). I'm like 75% German btw... and I'm proud of it because I see the Germans and very strong people.
Plus, we do everything thoroughly. If we party, we PARTY. I've heard that bands love to perform in Germany, because at concerts there's no chit-chat going on at the side, no idle socializing, no milling around looking for other sources of entertainment. If we go to a concert, we really go to a concert. Sort of thing.Originally Posted by Kim
No, not ISTJ. Could Switzerland be ISTJ, though? The German-speaking part?
Well I guess lately it has been a bit ESTp with all the superficiality, celebrity worship and the war mongering attitude (no offense to ESTps hehe).Originally Posted by Joy
Traditionally I see US as more ENTj though. I mean the effectiveness, business orientation, growth orientation, dynamicism, sort of "fairness" principle: fair competition but no mercy for the weak. It is like a civilized jungle where certain laws are enforced (no killing, no stealing, no bullshitting) and everything else is allowed and there are no safety nets for those who fall.
Is this just the image they have been projecting here where I live
Yeah, all things ENTjs are fond of!Originally Posted by Kraus
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
isn't necessarily about being healthy... in fact I think it's quite often about feeling good.
i am fond of those things as well.Originally Posted by FDG
LII
that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.
Originally Posted by Kraus
No problem!
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Hmm...why ISTj? Judging from here they look pretty E, possibly N, quite F. Maybe ENFp wonderland? hehe. I'm not sure at all but why ISTj???Originally Posted by vague
Oh nonononono!!! My ears!! Stop it!!!Originally Posted by vague
Seen it Was good movie but why ISTj?Originally Posted by vague
This would be interesting to knowOriginally Posted by vague
P.S. It seems I didn't read the topic too well before I posted the first time...
Ah, but this could be because Finland is so ISTx. A question of perspective.Originally Posted by XoX
I like it though.Originally Posted by Kraus
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Hehe okok. But for example there is a clear leadership style difference in Sweden and Finland. We have now several companies who have leaders from both countries (because of company fusions and such). What always seem to surface is the fact that Swedish leaders want to hold meetings and conversations until there is a satisfying compromise that everyone can agree to and full heartedly support. And every decision is open for renegotiation if necessary. Finnish style is more like "hold one meeting, quickly make a decision, stick to it and move to implement it (force people to submit to it if necessary)". Is it like xNFx and xSTx trying to find common ground.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Also Finnish industry is very much technology oriented and engineers are the backbone. Swedish industry is more versatile, artistic and aesthetic and seem to do stuff like music, clothes, furniture much better. Maybe I'm making too much of these "details" I have to admit I don't have much first hand knowledge of Swedes.
Belgium is indeed painfully , so it's dominant sensory subtype. As for ISTp, the problem is finding any at all.Originally Posted by Cheerio
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Strong , weak (not being able to wait until they've done it)Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Again, weakOriginally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Weak , and rational generallyOriginally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Not confident in and (since it's "secretly")Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
as neither strong function nor PoLR, perhaps role functionOriginally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Indication of strong and weak .Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Thanks for making the case for ISTj, cat.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Yes, these are signs of socionics rationality, another point for ISTj.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I do see in the sense that there's more to it than , an inclination to rely on own experiences and known procedures than try out new things (which would be called reckless, dangerous, risky, irresponsible etc). Things like cellphones and the internet took longer to really spread into Germany because the government, and society, were wary (although they did take to it after some time).Originally Posted by Kim
And what about the very ISXj reluctance to use credit cards? Try using a credit card in a small shop or restaurant outside the touristic areas of German cities. In the news agency of the smallest village in the UK you can use credit cards.
I can see that the over preferrence in Germany is fading, but it's still visible.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I have ISTj friend who while working concentrates 100% to work. While we do sports together he is 100% sport (like saying "I can't ride bike slowly, either I drive with full speed or not at all"). Then again he goes to rave parties and I can imagine he will be 100% "rave" there. The point is: I'm not sure if this is typical ISTj behavior but it is definately not a point against ISTj.Originally Posted by Expat
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
So we're ISTJ after all? Zis is mindbockling. But see, when you say that it's different, because you've lived there (yes?), so you know what you're talking about instead of jumping to foregone conclusions. And I get the impression that you're neither an ISTJ-hater nor a Germanophobe.
If it's true, then Kim and I come from a country that's our conflictor. Wow.
Now imagine how traumatic it was to give up our Deutschmark.Originally Posted by implied
The first German chancellor after WWII largely won the elections on the strength of his slogan: "No experiments." It's true that we're conservative and cautious. I've always thought that related more to our history. Lots of chaos and upheaval. Of course, different personalities respond to chaos in characteristic ways, so perhaps it was typical that we became more conservative? If WWI and II and the Third Reich had never happened, I would imagine that Germany today would be more like Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Danmark.
I did my PhD in Germany, have lived and worked in three different provinces, my mother's family is German on both sides, I have dated German women, a lot of my friends are German, most of my clients are German, I just applied for a job in Germany, and I haven't been to only two of the 16 Bundesländer (S and M-P). I like Germany a lot and go there very often. Two weeks ago I spent a long weekend in Thuringen.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
As for ISTj, one of my very best male friends is a very typical ISTj.
But that doesn't mean that I have to be uncritical, does it?
And I live in a country that's my conflictor - for the moment. Belgium's as ISFp as you can get.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
If any single historical event is responsible for that, I'd say it's the Thirty-Year War.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Germany's too big for that.Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
If WWI - and, by definition, WWII - had never happened, what we have today -- some sort of European Union dominated economically by Germany - would simply have happened sooner IMO. There is a good book by Niall Ferguson on that, The Pity of War.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Agree.Originally Posted by Expat
Of course Germany is too big to resemble any one country. But all the countries I've mentioned have something in common, and I think Germany would have shared this.
Not an ISTj trait. I'm exactly the same. When I bike, it's 100 bike. When I work, it's 100 work. When I rest...well, I don't particularly like to rest When I eat, it's 100 eat (which means that I eat in 4 mins).Originally Posted by XoX
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I agree with thatOriginally Posted by schrödinger's cat
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
The thing is, I dont see any either.Originally Posted by Expat
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Well, it's easier to find a good bookshop in any average German or British town than in Brussels, and the Belgian bureaucracy, regulations, and police seem to have been designed for inneficiency and waste. The economy of the Wallonia is stagnant and politicians come up with a pseudo-plan called "Marshall Plan" (I did not know that the Wallonia was recovering from a war).Originally Posted by Cheerio
Back to bookshops -- any large US shopping mall has a better, and bigger, bookshop than you can find in Brussels, whose best bookshop is actually the British implant Waterstones. And in cities like Liège it's even worse.
So from the above, zero .
The I can see in the prefered weekend activity of visiting each other to drink and eat ( ) and the dislike for any meaningful conversation.
Anyway it's definitely subtype, so let's see:
ISTp sensory subtype:
Aesthete, disposed to obtaining of pleasant sensations. Kontakten also of bendings is considerably more than initial subtype. Is more optimistic, but is less operational. Sibarit epicure. It gravitates towards to humanitarian disciplines - skill, linguistics, history. It dresses with the taste, emphasizing merits by clothing, selecting accordion it is color.
ISFp sensory subtype:
It possesses a good aesthetical taste, this can be manifested in the clothing, in the formulation of interior, and in the occupations by applied skill. Frequently this artist- landscapists, they love to depict still life. This is the judge of welfare, comfort for it is very important. It sibarit, it follows its exterior view. Hedonist, loves to provide pleasure both to himself and by others. It is outwardly more well-fed, than the initial subtype of mediator.
Given the above described weekend habit, I'd say Belgium is more the sensory subtype of ISFp rather than ISTp.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied