The people you hate the most are in your quadra

[Gilly]

Discuss.

[strrrng]

I could see this being the case if the person was shitty/incompatible/etc. but you still felt a mutual understanding in communication, or the manner in which you each annoyed each other. That could exacerbate things more than simply dealing with an opposing quadra member who was not only incommunicable but also a stupid prick.

Although, from my experience, it isn't the people in my own quadra who are the most frustrating. I can dislike some betas intensely, sure; but I still ruefully recognize them as my kin on some level, and feel a more personalized ease in conflicting with them. Most deltas who annoy me (which is the majority) I don't pay much attention to anyway; but if I do, I usually have to keep it brief, to prevent the internal frustration from boiling over (but most deltas I interact with are snobby jews, so it's not the best sample). Neighboring quadras, however, can be endlessly annoying, because it's like they go about things similarly but in entirely divergent and wrong directions. Alphas use Fe for stupid purposes, etc.

[The Greeter]

I'll have to think about the veracity of your claims. Not that I hate many people, but for those that I could say I do with some confidence, I think I understand them. But, these individuals are not necessarily in my quadra and the reasons are not quadra related.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your assumption is that one understands what one hates. A sound assumption but it is my belief that Socionics is not the determinant of profound understanding of another person.

[Gilly]

I tend to think of functions as "mental tools," which have conclusions that take up "mental space." We configure our perception of the world to fit what we have seen, using the mental tools we possess. Now, if someone has different mental tools than you entirely, their perception of the world is probably going to be drastically different in very key ways, even if their experience is identical. Given the huge differences in how you put things together, your "mental space" is probably not even threatened or disturbed by what you see in a person this different from yourself; all you can really to is attempt to understand the differences.

On the other hand, if you meet someone who has similar mental tools, but has drastically different life experiences, then you are probably going to wind up with very different views on things. However, they are going to be constructed in similar ways, ways that each other can understand, but given your different experiences, you are naturally going to think that this other person is placing emphasis in all the wrong places.

In a sense, you have to think similarly to someone in order to disagree with them; you have to be trying to "occupy the same space," so to speak.

A great example of this is my LSE mother and I. She places emphasis on things in her life that, from a logical perspective, I can see as potentially valid to another human being, but I just don't think like she does; we just have entirely different priorities in life. We place emphasis on entirely different things in our lives. However, our goals, while divergent, aren't necessarily conflicting: she wants a stable, happy life for herself and her family, and to contribute to the world positively in any way that is within her means, without taking things to an extreme. I, on the other hand, want to flourish personally and artistically, and more than any pursuit of personal happiness, stability, having a family life, or concrete contribution to society, I want to create works of art and literature that will alter the way people think, that they will relate to in ways that will both comfort and disturb them; to make them feel human but question their humanity; to reassure them that they are not alone but discourage them from ever being anyone but themselves; to always climb and reach for higher things, but not be afraid to fall and revel in the depths of themselves. Our views are not entirely incompatible or contrary, but they aren't exactly commensurate either; simply put, we're just very different.

On the other hand, my former boss, an LSI ex Army Ranger, sees the world in terms that are very familiar to me: it was always easy for me to understand what he was saying, and I very quickly picked up on his thought processes, ways of doing things, and even his broader perspectives on life just by interacting with him. However, because we had drastically different experiences in life, our views were totally incompatible, and I think had we ever gotten to know each other on the basis of discussing personal views, we would have disagreed vehemently: he believes, above all else, in personal integrity and adherence to "rules" that everyone should follow in order to promote personal growth and for humanity to remain afloat.

Personally I see his perspective on people as dangerous and intrusive: I think that forcing people to follow "rules" is a pathetic excuse for self-actualization, and undermines everything real about existing as a genuine human being. I'm sure he would see my perspective similarly: intrusive upon the inherent order in society, and dangerous to the way things have come to function. In some greater sense, I'm sure both of these perspectives are necessary, but you can see what I'm getting at here.

My mother, if she knew about these two different perspectives, would probably think that both of us are too adamant, and take our own views too seriously, but would not feel threatened by either of us, because she knows that she is living the life that she loves, and that the world is, in some sense, better for her having lived.

However, while I see more merit in my mother's take on life, and see it as less "evil," in a sense, when it comes to literally placing myself in another person's shoes, I could never live her life. My ex-boss has a sense of purpose and duty in his life that I see as absolutely essential to my continued existence; if I ever thought that I would simply descend into being placated by an average life, just do my "level best," have a "stable life," I would be horrified, disgusted with myself, and probably turn suicidal. I just cannot comprehend ever wanting to resign to that view of the world. However, the military-esque sense of duty given off by my boss, the way he single-mindedly pursues his goals, is admirable to me: while I disagree with just about everything he stands for, I can understand why he feels the way he feels about things, and I see traits in him, even negative ones, that I know I share, that are disgusting to me simply BECAUSE they are exactly how I am sometimes.

This, I think, is a good example of how people from the same quadra try to "occupy the same space," in a sense, and therefore are more likely to conflict, whereas people from opposing quadras are more likely than not simply confused by one another, incapable of standing in the other's shoes.

[717495]

Sounds true of beta, however I presume you don't really need a thread about it. It is relentless.

[Trevor]

I hate myself the most. I am in my quadra. How about you folks?

[717495]

I undermine this thread. Quadra relations are already used as a typing system all on their own, however we'd be worse off if it gets flipped on its head. There would still be a continuous shift of interpretation, but this idea would be to misinterpret theory from the start.

[jewels]

I usually have the most problems with Betas, despite the fact that I can clearly see how amazingly charming Betas can be.

With other quadras I don't take this as personally -- so I may dislike someone from any other quadra (and they may be very annoying). With Betas, I dislike them AND I feel personally offended. That's probably just the conflicting quadra/functions at work.

(For example -- at a coffee shop everyone brings laptops and sits at the "bar." It's usually pretty quiet as everyone is working. Two ENFjs next to me are talking reallllly loudly, especially the girl who is getting louder and louder and starts gesturing and hitting into me 1 out of 3 times. Her voice and flailing limbs are very anti-Si. All of the Fe (which can be used in a fun way) just seems annoying to me because it's not fitting in w/ the chill Si-friendly vibe the place usually has. Where as w/ another quadra I'd think "oh the poor girl is just trying to be liked and doesn't realize it" or something, I was actually getting really angry w/ this one. If it was a Delta being annoying, they'd still be annoying, but it wouldn't be conflicting w/ my functions, so it wouldn't be "personal.")

That said, I just met an ENFj and INFp guy at a bar the other day and wow, I really liked them. They were incredibly charming, fun, upbeat and we all had a terrific conversation. I was super drawn to them and their happy Fe. Then they got into using a lot of Ni/Ti, as in "if a person flunks law school a few times they must be stupid and suck and should give up" versus Ne/Te "it could have been another factor, the person still has potential to be amazing as a lawyer" anyway, point was I liked their Fe though. And they were charming.

[Gilly]

I undermine this thread. Quadra relations are already used as a typing system all on their own, however we'd be worse off if it gets flipped on its head. There would still be a continuous shift of interpretation, but this idea would be to misinterpret theory from the start.

Only if you look at it on the surface level, and if you're doing that then Socionics fails from the start, because you wind up saying "Oh I don't like/get along/agree with this person, therefore he/she is in an opposing quadra". If you know WHY people disagree or don't like each other, then you can have a better understanding of how the disagreement may or may not be relevant to Socionics type.

[717495]

Only if you look at it on the surface level, and if you're doing that then Socionics fails from the start, because you wind up saying "Oh I don't like/get along/agree with this person, therefore he/she is in an opposing quadra". If you know WHY people disagree or don't like each other, then you can have a better understanding of how the disagreement may or may not be relevant to Socionics type.

Well sure. I don't have anything bad to say about my quadra (the people), so it would seem like the current theory is doing just fine for me.

[Gilly]

Maybe this is only the case with Betas because we are the ones who usually try to "take up space"

sigh...

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Gilly]

I tend to be more forgiving of those in my quadra, precisely because I understand where they're coming from, so no, I don't think this is true at all.

Well, that's not necessarily discordant with what I'm saying; I can understand why my ex-boss believes what he believes, but it just so happens that our beliefs come into direct contradiction with one another because of the very nature of our vested interests.

I guess I assumed a loose interpretation of the word "hate."

[strrrng]

Keep it real, Gilly

(For example -- at a coffee shop everyone brings laptops and sits at the "bar." It's usually pretty quiet as everyone is working. Two ENFjs next to me are talking reallllly loudly, especially the girl who is getting louder and louder and starts gesturing and hitting into me 1 out of 3 times. Her voice and flailing limbs are very anti-Si. All of the Fe (which can be used in a fun way) just seems annoying to me because it's not fitting in w/ the chill Si-friendly vibe the place usually has. Where as w/ another quadra I'd think "oh the poor girl is just trying to be liked and doesn't realize it" or something, I was actually getting really angry w/ this one. If it was a Delta being annoying, they'd still be annoying, but it wouldn't be conflicting w/ my functions, so it wouldn't be "personal."

I don't really get this. It sounds like you typed them as beta because of their behaviors, which you determined were Fe/Se/whatever based on their ostensible manifestations. And then you say that if a girl from another quadra did the same thing, you would interpret it differently? That doesn't really make sense to me. As far as I know, being loud or emotionally clamorous or aggressive is not in any way intrinsically related to Fe/Se, despite it sometimes feeling that way; this means that the trait shouldn't determine the functions. And if the person annoys you, they annoy you; why must your reaction to them be determined by your personal assessment of their motivations, which could be entirely divergent from their actual motivations, as it is based on what appears to be a superficial induction?

I find Se environments "comfortable" -- they don't always have to be rowdy and shit; it's a subtler, personal feeling. Fe doesn't have to be loud; ESTjs are some of the raunchiest types I have seen, in ways. etc. etc.

[Park]

I hate myself the most. I am in my quadra. How about you folks?

Same here.

[Danielle]

I had to think about this. There are more behaviors that I hate than people. It's hard for me to hate any particular individual if I am at least minimally acquainted with them.

Generally the people I can't stand are those I observe from afar, like celebrities, politicians, people on Judge Judy. And in those cases, they are definitely not people in my own quadra. I also don't see this proposition as being based in Socionics. It seems opposed actually.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Probably. The cliche 'there is a thin line between love and hate' has a lot of truth to it. And also 'what gives you great pleasure also has the power to give you great pain.' So therefore in a way, I can see how this is somewhat true. I don't think it's fully true though, I think it's a half-truth. The people you hate the most are in your quadra.

Well, the people you LOVE the most are in your quadra as well.

Your conflicting quadra tends to confuse you and make you feel misunderstood. It's not all that emotional, it's more like a base analytical understanding that gets all skewered. You just talk over and past each other, and direct one-on-one communication feels awkward. Even if you both WANT to understand and love each other, it doesn't seem to be happening. And such, more dangerous hate naturally seems to fester under the surface between these two quadras.

[Gilly]

Your conflicting quadra tends to confuse you and make you feel misunderstood. It's not all that emotional, it's more like a base analytical understanding that gets all skewered. You just talk over and past each other, and direct one-on-one communication feels awkward. Even if you both WANT to understand and love each other, it doesn't seem to be happening.

Yup.

[The Exception]

Alphas use Fe for stupid purposes, etc.

please explain

[The Exception]

That said, I just met an ENFj and INFp guy at a bar the other day and wow, I really liked them. They were incredibly charming, fun, upbeat and we all had a terrific conversation. I was super drawn to them and their happy Fe. Then they got into using a lot of Ni/Ti, as in "if a person flunks law school a few times they must be stupid and suck and should give up" versus Ne/Te "it could have been another factor, the person still has potential to be amazing as a lawyer" anyway, point was I liked their Fe though. And they were charming.

Some of the beta NFs I know are like this. They frequently express strong opinions and statements that arouse strong reactions in others, often unintentionally offending others in the process. I don't think their intention is to offend though. I think its that they feel that if they have strong feelings about something, they shouldn't have to hold them back. Either that or they are joking around and trying to promote an upbeat atmosphere and the people around them are taking it wrong.

And I do think there is a difference in how betas and alphas use Fe. Beta Fe feels edgier, for example making bold statements about things that can be rather controversial and stir strong reactions in people. Alpha Fe feels more lighthearted and less edgy. The artistocratic/democratic difference may also play a role. I think Beta Fe is more inclined to make jokes about certain groups of people. Alpha Fe feels more inclusive, more careful not to make generalizations about certain types of people.

When I hate someone that's from the beta quadra, its sometimes due to this difference in use of Fe, which I find offensive when carried too far.

[JuJu]

Arguments with those in my quadra tend to blow over relatively quickly... E.g. today a Se-SLE girl was being annoying, and my best friend, a Se-LSI, said to her, "shut the fuck up and get out of the car."

To this, she responded, "oh, now you're gettin an attitude?"

Then they both started laughing.

They were both genuinely pissed for a second... But there is a level of understanding between them that enabled them to just "let it go."

...I tend to steer clear of Deltas... Most of the people I "hate" are ISFps...

[The Exception]

Most of the people I "hate" are ISFps...

Could this have something to do with the supervisory relation betwen ISFp and ENFj, with the ISFp being the supervisor?

I've found that I can be uncomfortable with ESTp as that type is my supervisor. I don't usually "hate" them per se, but rather feel uncomfortable with them. Subtype plays a big difference- its mostly been the ESTp-Se's that I find annoying.

[Danielle]

Probably. The cliche 'there is a thin line between love and hate' has a lot of truth to it. And also 'what gives you great pleasure also has the power to give you great pain.' So therefore in a way, I can see how this is somewhat true. I don't think it's fully true though, I think it's a half-truth. The people you hate the most are in your quadra.

Well, the people you LOVE the most are in your quadra as well.

Nah, the people in my quadra are too easy to understand and empathize with for me to hate, or even passionately dislike. The worst feeling I feel is indifference (which is pretty bad for me, I hate not caring one way or the other about someone). The people who inspire passionate negative feelings in me can come from any of the other three quadras, but I can't think of a single one from my own.

At first I couldn't identify with hating people, but then I thought about it. There are certain times when I'll think a person is completely worthless and the world would be better off if they had never existed. I think that's when I hate someone. It doesn't even necessarily take me a lot of exposure to a person to feel that way about them. I can tell you right now the kinds of behaviors that make me want to wipe a person off the face of the earth. And I can't associate any of them with typical Delta flaws. A few examples:

- Betrayals of the innocent.
- Abandoning someone who trusts you for your own advantage.
- Gaslighting someone.
- Gleeful amoral behavior.

[717495]

Alphas use Fe for stupid purposes, etc.

That's the way it's supposed to be used.

[Gilly]

I'm definitely guilty of those last two

[JWC3]

Beta Quadra; Where your friends are your enemies, your enemies are your enemies, and where you attract so much attention even your enemies enemies will sometimes band together and lend a hand in your demise.

[Gilly]

lol, so true...

[FDG]

Not true for me, really.

[bolong]

- Betrayals of the innocent.
- Abandoning someone who trusts you for your own advantage.
- Gaslighting someone.
- Gleeful amoral behavior.

Fuck, I thought immediately that Beta can do all 4 gleefully.

[jessica129]

It's an odd phenomenon because I feel as though I feel the most comfortable with Deltas IRL but--and it pains me oh so much to say this--half of the deltas here are the oddest, most morally judgemental and uptight people I've probably come across and it bothers me. That is half the reason I never thought I was delta.

[InvisibleJim]

Opposites attract ?

[Park]

It's an odd phenomenon because I feel as though I feel the most comfortable with Deltas IRL but--and it pains me oh so much to say this--half of the deltas here are the oddest, most morally judgemental and uptight people I've probably come across and it bothers me. That is half the reason I never thought I was delta.

So it's settled then; you're LSI.

[jessica129]

So it's settled then; you're LSI.

Be honest, you enjoy the crazies? I am so far from LSI it's ridiculous.

[Park]

Maritsa is my favorite.

[strrrng]

when I have an issue with betas (and more often than not it's with j-subs, theatrical hyenas), it feels closer to the edge, detachedly personal in a way; whereas with deltas, conflict is always implied by the sterile sense of moral contiguity, if that makes sense.

[malna]

As a rule, I get along with Deltas quite well. As long as they're not withdrawn individuals with no sense of fun, which alas isn't really uncanny with this quadra.
But the truth is, I always have been equally drawn to Alphas. Perhaps more, even. Therein lay part of my past problem with typing. On the Polish forum I had been given this beautiful decoration -

24631955.jpg

And so I brag.

[DaftPunk]

As a rule, I get along with Deltas quite well. As long as they're not withdrawn individuals with no sense of fun, which alas isn't really uncanny with this quadra.
But the truth is, I always have been equally drawn to Alphas. Perhaps more, even. Therein lay part of my past problem with typing. On the Polish forum I had been given this beautiful decoration -

24631955.jpg

And so I brag.

Same here most of my IRL friends are Alpha what makes me start to think if i am Alpha myself.

[Suz]

It's an odd phenomenon because I feel as though I feel the most comfortable with Deltas IRL but--and it pains me oh so much to say this--half of the deltas here are the oddest, most morally judgemental and uptight people I've probably come across and it bothers me. That is half the reason I never thought I was delta.

Two possibilities:

1) those deltas aren't deltas

2) those deltas are deltas and their deeply held values would be kept tightly under wraps in interpersonal interactions; it's only here in an anonymous forum that those seeingly uptight views are shared and perhaps come across the wrong way. However, it's those deeply held hidden uptight values that makes them the people you enjoy interacting with IRL.

[Suz]

Maritsa is my favorite.

what?

What about me????

[Park]

3) Maritsa isn't Delta.