Phaedrus as an IEI

[Ezra]

Expat reckons IEI (he'll explain his own reasons if he wishes), and for a while I couldn't see a case for this, but it actually makes far more sense than anything else.

Firstly, no function fits him better than Ni as a base function. He's not as obsessed with construction systems as machintruc, a blatent example of a Ti base; he doesn't seem to impose his ideas on others. He has his own world views, and likes others' (Ti craving). The reason he's not Te creative is because of how this function would work with Ni if he was. It's so opposed to the way he operates. For a long time, I couldn't see the Fe creative, so IEI made little sense. But look at the way he puts his arguments across; he uses emotional manipulation and guilt trips to get what he wants out of you; "Oh, Ezra, don't fall into the same trap as everyone else on the forum [but me] has done. You're cleverer than that. In time you'll come to see how right I am". It reminds me of a corrupt rhetorician; a dictatorial orator; like Xerxes in 300. He doesn't produce facts; he produces his worldview. But it's not a logically sound worlview; it's one that only works because he says it does. For example, he doesn't recognise the simple fact that socionics functions are more important than temperament, club or romantic style. He believes test results, heavily MBTT- or Keirsey-influenced, are more important than how one function interracts with another. He thinks type descriptions are more valuable than the reasoning behind why, for example, an LII craves Fe, or why an SEE needs Ni.

What do you think?

[Cudcat]

Awaiting some massive replies from Phaedrus and Expat any minute now...

[Expat]

Firstly, no function fits him better than Ni as a base function. He's not as obsessed with construction systems as machintruc, a blatent example of a Ti base; he doesn't seem to impose his ideas on others.

No, but he tries to. Or, rather, what he wants from others is confirmation of his deeply-held ideas. That's also why he keeps seeking confirmation from philosophers and from socionists, as in "are you going to say that fill-in-the-blank is wrong?"

He has his own world views, and likes others' (Ti craving). The reason he's not Te creative is because of how this function would work with Ni if he was. It's so opposed to the way he operates. For a long time, I couldn't see the Fe creative, so IEI made little sense. But look at the way he puts his arguments across; he uses emotional manipulation and guilt trips to get what he wants out of you; "Oh, Ezra, don't fall into the same trap as everyone else on the forum [but me] has done. You're cleverer than that. In time you'll come to see how right I am". It reminds me of a corrupt rhetorician; a dictatorial orator; like Xerxes in 300.

I liked Xerxes's style better, though: "you will kneel before me -- because I am kind".

Also - to the extent that others want to accept that as argument - what I said about the Fe-Ti preference with Ti as a filter.

He thinks type descriptions are more valuable than the reasoning behind why, for example, an LII craves Fe, or why an SEE needs Ni.

It's not just about finding it "more valuable". He doesn't seem to understand that at all. Ask him how, precisely, the ILI is supposed to be the benefactor of the EII, and the beneficiary of the LSI (and not vice-versa), giving examples. Apart from parroting, say, Ganin's descriptions, he won't be able to. He doesn't really grasp that sort of thing at all. Nor does he care imo.

Ask, on the other hand, Slacker Mom, why she is the benefactor of the LIE, and the beneficiary of the ESE, and I think she'll explain it well, giving examples of how she interacts with those types.

But that, in itself, is not an argument for IEI since, for instance, misutii also looks at how the relationships work as part of his typing argumentations. Or ScarlettLux. It's an argument for his not really understanding socionics.

[Ezra]

You've been around here longer than I have. A month longer to be precise.

Expat, niffweed, Joy and many others talked about his habits when I first got here, wondering what all the fuss about him was. I've interracted with him enough to understand what functions he uses though.

[Joy]

I still think LSI is a possibility.

[Joy]

he doesn't seem to impose his ideas on others

?

For example, he doesn't recognise the simple fact that socionics functions are more important than temperament, club or romantic style. He believes test results, heavily MBTT- or Keirsey-influenced, are more important than how one function interracts with another. He thinks type descriptions are more valuable than the reasoning behind why, for example, an LII craves Fe, or why an SEE needs Ni.

He's just believing what he wants to believe. The way he insists is more type related than what he insists, I think. I see no hint of an IP temperament in him. I think he's a rational type. Ti > Te, Se > Si.

[Slacker]

I still think LSI is a possibility.

I agree. I read the following from him and it felt like fingernails grating against my brain:

The only seemingly strong argument for the claim that Clint Eastwood might be an INTj is V.I. He exhibits some similarities in look with David Carradine, who is indisputably an INTj. But what happens if we compare their behaviours? Do they give the same impression? Do they "feel" the same to us?

Compare David Carradine in Kill Bill 2, where his character is also clearly an INTj, with Clint Eastwood in any film you like. I am inclined to say that they are probably not the same type, which, if true, means that Clint Eastwood can't be an INTj, because David Carradine is an INTj.

What the hell is that? I can't follow that logic. I read that like two dozen times and I still couldn't follow that logic. In the way that I can't follow Ti logic.

Add to that his constant use of Se (certainly anti-Ne anyway) language like "Must be", "definitely", "I am 100% sure it is totally false", "cannot be disputed -- ever", "are not like that. Period." (in all bold letters, of course). It's like having nails hammered through my skull to read that kind of thing. Especially when following some supposedly logical argument like the above! ARGH !!!!!!!!

If he's an INFp, he's the only INFp I've known who DOES THAT AWFUL STUFF!

[Creepy-bg]

let's not turn this into another Phaedrus thread......

oh wait... nevermind

[Joy]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

This is a fun list. Reminds me of some of the interactions that used to be much more common here.

[Logos]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

This is a fun list. Reminds me of some of the interactions that used to be much more common here.

Used to be?

[Phaedrus]

You've been around here longer than I have. A month longer to be precise.

Expat, niffweed, Joy and many others talked about his habits when I first got here, wondering what all the fuss about him was. I've interracted with him enough to understand what functions he uses though.

You are a fast learner, Ezra. I can still recall one of my dreams, in which I saw people standing in awe of you, row after row kneeling before you, thanking you thousandfold for your kindness and benevolence in revealing to them the secrets of the universe. And afterwards, when the sun had gone down, and one of the greatest figures of our time had finally left the scene, and the last row of people had strained themselves to the utmost in order to catch a final glimpse of his glorious shape, I could still hear them from my hiding place in the shadows. I could still hear their enchanted voices whispering to each other: "Oh, yes -- Ezra is indeed a fast learner."

[Joy]

Used to be much more common...

[Expat]

He's just believing what he wants to believe. The way he insists is more type related than what he insists, I think. I see no hint of an IP temperament in him. I think he's a rational type. Ti > Te, Se > Si.

Right.

What the hell is that? I can't follow that logic. I read that like two dozen times and I still couldn't follow that logic. In the way that I can't follow Ti logic.

Add to that his constant use of Se (certainly anti-Ne anyway) language like "Must be", "definitely", "I am 100% sure it is totally false", "cannot be disputed -- ever", "are not like that. Period." (in all bold letters, of course). It's like having nails hammered through my skull to read that kind of thing. Especially when following some supposedly logical argument like the above! ARGH !!!!!!!!

If he's an INFp, he's the only INFp I've known who DOES THAT AWFUL STUFF!

Yeah I know, but the thing is, while you and Rick are sensitive to his focus on Se and Ti, quite a few logical types (Ti and Te) tend to see an unnatural use of Te and Ti, and I doubt that the Se ego types see that much Se, either.

Well at least it's clear that Slacker Mom doesn't see a nice relationship of Illusion

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I dunno what his type is. It seems to me he wants to be ILI, and in order to convince himself and others, it's like he's read through just about every type description and decided to act that way. The result to me, well the best way to put it is an ILI caricature. No one is 100% fit to a type description. People of same types are similar, and i've been suprised how I think similarly to people of my own type, but people of the same type are not identicals to a type description on the internet, personality comes into play.

Phaedrus just tries to hard to be an ILI, wether he is one or not.

[Phaedrus]

I dunno what his type is. It seems to me he wants to be ILI

Actually, I would prefer to be some other type. Can you make it happen?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Actually, I would prefer to be some other type. Can you make it happen?

Thats reasonably interesting. Why?

[Ezra]

I still think LSI is a possibility.

How? Where's the Se?

?

Okay, perhaps he does. But he doesn't create lengthy posts on his theory, does he?

He's just believing what he wants to believe.

Do you think this is Ti related? I think this is a potential prejudice against Ti types if so.

The way he insists is more type related than what he insists, I think.

I see no hint of an IP temperament in him.

You cannot determine temperament online. IRL, if you meet someone, temperament becomes obvious instantly. Online, it can all too often be shrouded in a person's thoughts. Temperament is partly to do with action, and you can't evaluate someone's action over the internet; only their thought processes.

I think he's a rational type.

Why?

[Ezra]

I agree.

Regardless of the logic there, I think the reason you think he's your conflictor is partly based on how you feel about him as a person; as a character. You simply don't like him. Which is fair enough, but that doesn't make him your conflictor. It just means you don't like him.

You are a fast learner, Ezra. I can still recall one of my dreams, in which I saw people standing in awe of you, row after row kneeling before you, thanking you thousandfold for your kindness and benevolence in revealing to them the secrets of the universe. And afterwards, when the sun had gone down, and one of the greatest figures of our time had finally left the scene, and the last row of people had strained themselves to the utmost in order to catch a final glimpse of his glorious shape, I could still hear them from my hiding place in the shadows. I could still hear their enchanted voices whispering to each other: "Oh, yes -- Ezra is indeed a fast learner."

Only an IEI.

Yeah I know, but the thing is, while you and Rick are sensitive to his focus on Se and Ti, quite a few logical types (Ti and Te) tend to see an unnatural use of Te and Ti, and I doubt that the Se ego types see that much Se, either.

I bet if you asked Herzy, for example, she'd say "where's the Se with Phaedrus?"

Phaedrus just tries to hard to be an ILI, wether he is one or not.

Good point.

Thats reasonably interesting. Why?

He's got you, Cyclops. That was a rhetorical technique which allegedly proved his being an ILI. In actual fact, all it did was make you think he doesn't want to be one. It's like someone calling me a counterphobic Six who wants to be an Eight, and my replying "well, I am an Eight, but I don't want to be". I could easily be an Eight, based on that. I could also easily be a counterphobic Six, or any other type. It implies nothing.*

*FTR, I am an Eight.

[Slacker]

No Ezra - I think you're an ESTp but I do like you. I don't like Phaedrus but the specific reasons I don't like him are because of how he uses Ti and Se. Particularly in combination. It's really grating. If I didn't like him for another reason, I'd see your point. Like if I just generally felt he was unpleasant, and then thought he was LSI. But I specifically hate what the combination of Ti and Se in him, though others do say that he doesn't use either well, and maybe it's him stressing it because he values it but doesn't use it well that makes it so grating. I'm very open to that possibility.

[Phaedrus]

Thats reasonably interesting. Why?

Who wants to be like this person?

He is a natural sceptic who points out every contradiction and every imperfection he can find in the world. He is not in balance, and he doesn't know how to control his mood. He is often unpleasant and grunting, a person whose emotions affect others.

He is also a person whose pedantry and perfectionism make it difficult for him to bring what he has started to an end. He tends to hesitate, and he dislikes new endeavours. He does not like to hurry, is a lazybone. He is distrustful of people. He can be stubborn if he is convinced that he is right about the facts. He dislikes compliments and prefers to talk about weaknesses. He is difficult to persuade or pressure to do something.

[Phaedrus]

you? but the description does seem to be very ILI imo.

But does it sound fun to be such a person? I don't think so.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Who wants to be like this person?

He is a natural sceptic who points out every contradiction and every imperfection he can find in the world. He is not in balance, and he doesn't know how to control his mood. He is often unpleasant and grunting, a person whose emotions affect others.

He is also a person whose pedantry and perfectionism make it difficult for him to bring what he has started to an end. He tends to hesitate, and he dislikes new endeavours. He does not like to hurry, is a lazybone. He is distrustful of people. He can be stubborn if he is convinced that he is right about the facts. He dislikes compliments and prefers to talk about weaknesses. He is difficult to persuade or pressure to do something.

Phaedrus, if you don't want to be that way, change. Some of that is type related, some of it is personality related.

Have to learn to become happy with your functions (whatever they are) use your tools in a different re-inforcing loop, you know?

[Joy]

Do you think this is Ti related? I think this is a potential prejudice against Ti types if so.

No, not Ti related. I do, however, think IP temperament people are less likely to insist on things related to rational functions the way he does.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

No, not Ti related. I do, however, think IP temperament people are less likely to insist on things related to rational functions the way he does.

Hi, can you explain this a little more for me please?

Do you mean for instance if an INTp were to insist on say, something related to their Te? That they would be less inclined to do it than say a rationial Te type such as mirror ENTj?

[Phaedrus]

Phaedrus, if you don't want to be that way, change.

How? I'm not Smilex; I don't know what to do to change my type. Can't someone help me to be another type? Which do you think I should be?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

How? I'm not Smilex; I don't know what to do to change my type. Can't someone help me to be another type? Which do you think I should be?

I never said anything about type. Actually, if you are INTp, your like one of those INTp uncovered that you read.

I'm also undecided wether you are being sarcastic.

[Joy]

Hi, can you explain this a little more for me please?

Do you mean for instance if an INTp were to insist on say, something related to their Te? That they would be less inclined to do it than say a rationial Te type such as mirror ENTj?

They may point things out, but if people don't want to listen they don't press the issue the way phaedrus does. Remember, IP is the "relaxed, go with the flow" temperament.

[Hitta]

Its funny that when multiple people fit the profiles of what I say an INTj and ENTp suppose to be, and people still think I'm full of shit.

[Joy]

He's being sarcastic as a way of pointing out that he wouldn't know how to be any type other than ILI.

On a side note, if I had to choose between ILI and LIE for him, I'd say LIE. I'm that convinced he's not IP. But I really think he's Ti/Fe > Te/Fi. And if he is a Fe type (as opposed to Ti), I'd go with EIE > IEI.

[Joy]

Its funny that when multiple people fit the profiles of what I say an INTj and ENTp suppose to be, and people still think I'm full of shit.

Really? Multiple people fit the profiles of what I say a lampshade and a stool are supposed to be, and people still think I'm full of shit.

[Logos]

Its funny that when multiple people fit the profiles of what I say an INTj and ENTp suppose to be, and people still think I'm full of shit.

If I think that a walrus fits the profile of a zebra, that does not make the walrus a zebra. So for a self-proclaimed zebra, your sense of logic at times is as wacky as a walrus.

[Elro]

Really? Multiple people fit the profiles of what I say a lampshade and a stool are supposed to be, and people still think I'm full of shit.

Joy, are you drunk again?

[Joy]

Nah, I'm five days sober.

[Expat]

He's being sarcastic as a way of pointing out that he wouldn't know how to be any type other than ILI.

On a side note, if I had to choose between ILI and LIE for him, I'd say LIE. I'm that convinced he's not IP. But I really think he's Ti/Fe > Te/Fi. And if he is a Fe type (as opposed to Ti), I'd go with EIE > IEI.

I can see your point. What I'm equally convinced is of the Ti/Fe thing; that, and what I see as too low focus on Te for LSI or LII.

No Ezra - I think you're an ESTp but I do like you. I don't like Phaedrus but the specific reasons I don't like him are because of how he uses Ti and Se. Particularly in combination. It's really grating. If I didn't like him for another reason, I'd see your point. Like if I just generally felt he was unpleasant, and then thought he was LSI. But I specifically hate what the combination of Ti and Se in him, though others do say that he doesn't use either well, and maybe it's him stressing it because he values it but doesn't use it well that makes it so grating. I'm very open to that possibility.

Yeah, I don't think you have to dislike your conflictors. Your conflictor is not a person you dislike; it's a person who you see as having their priorities all wrong, and reacting and acting in incomprehensible ways.

Your identical - or the concept of your identical - is a "person" you like precisely because you think they've got their priorities right and make sense to you.

[Joy]

reacting and acting in incomprehensible ways

that's a good way of putting it

[BLauritson]

I think things like pedantry and pointing out inconsistencies is highly overrated in ILI profiles (or at least the ones Phaedrus quotes, where they come from I don't know, nor do I much care). Like Joy says, IP temperament is the "relaxed, go with the flow" temperament. That and I can't see that I'd keep my SEE friends for long if I constantly, proactively started pointing out inconsistencies in what they say, for example. I might make the occasional joke about it but it's not something I place any importance on. Thinking about it, I think I'd get annoyed if someone went around correcting what I said all the time. Not that I'm trying to convince Phaedrus either way on this (since I know how futile that is) but just something I felt like saying.

[FDG]

I think things like pedantry and pointing out inconsistencies is highly overrated in ILI profiles (or at least the ones Phaedrus quotes, where they come from I don't know, nor do I much care). Like Joy says, IP temperament is the "relaxed, go with the flow" temperament. That and I can't see that I'd keep my SEE friends for long if I constantly, proactively started pointing out inconsistencies in what they say, for example. I might make the occasional joke about it but it's not something I place any importance on. Thinking about it, I think I'd get annoyed if someone went around correcting what I said all the time. Not that I'm trying to convince Phaedrus either way on this (since I know how futile that is) but just something I felt like saying.

From my experience, ILIs can be pedantic and detail-oriented in their work - whatever their field of choice may be -, which generally doesn't translate to pedantry in their daily life behavior.

[Joy]

From what I've seen, ILI's are more critical in a "that won't work" or "that isn't a good idea" way (as opposed to more of a "that's incorrect" or "you're wrong" kind of way). I think Toby from The Office is a good example of an ILI. He's probably more "go with the flow" than most people ILI's are, but the character demonstrates the type and style of criticisms you'd hear from an ILI. I think Robin from One Piece is another good example of an ILI. She's less critical than Toby (but then again, she has fewer reasons to be critical ), more "bookish", and more morbid (at least that's what the other characters on the show call her observations).

If I think of any other examples I'll post them.

[Cudcat]

[/crapjoke]

[Joy]

Lol