ISTp-ENFp duality and implicit perception of emotional needs

[consentingadult]

As I have explained in a thread started by Dioclecian, I hypothesize that the attractiveness in an SLI for an IEE is that the SLI does not project/force unspoken expectations on the IEE (that other types might do anyway, even against the subconscious will of the IEE), which allows the IEE to act fully from intrinsic motivation.

I would like to extend this hypothesis: The attractiveness in an IEE for the SLI is that the SLI does not have to speak out their emotional needs and wants, because the IEE will perceive them anyway and try to fulfill those needs.

I realize that both aspects are somewhat IEE-centric, and that more SLI-centric (Si/Te) aspects can also be added to clarify the nature of IEE-SLI duality.

Does this make sense?

[Slacker]

I do get kind of anxious when people have expectations of me. I hate obligations. If I'm going to do something, I want to do it for my own reasons and not because someone else thinks I should or have to.

And true enough, my husband doesn't have a lot of expectations of me. He wants to be fed every day but he has no particular expectations about how that should happen.

I don't think that's *all* the attractiveness or even necessarily most of it, but it is true that I like that. Or at least not being like that that repels me.

[consentingadult]

He wants to be fed every day but he has no particular expectations about how that should happen.

Wouldn't that be a thing that an SLI is perfectly capable of doing himself? I would have expected HIM to take care of dinner

I don't think that's *all* the attractiveness or even necessarily most of it, but it is true that I like that. Or at least not being like that that repels me.

Perhaps 'attractiveness' is not the right word, maybe I should have used 'appeal' instead, and then in a more subconscious meaning of the word as well. BTW, I assume here that you are talking about type-related aspects of the attraction/appeal, because of course they must be things in your husband that you like but aren't type related.

Feel free to elaborate what it is in SLIs that works for you. What I'm actually looking for, is an understanding of IEE-SLI duality, and only those aspects that are type related.

[Slacker]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

[consentingadult]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

No never heard of that movie, but it sounds like fun. IMDB says it's a TV show, is that right? Let's see if I can get a copy of it.

The more I think of it, the more I doubt I've ever run into an ISTp. I had a date last year with a woman that didn't say very much and actually gave me the feeling she wasn't interested at all, not in the positive sense, but also in the negative sense, her attitude seemed completely neutral to me. So at the end of the date, I wanted to shake her hand and say goodbye, and she suddenly smiled joyfully as if she liked me and had enjoyed the date and wanted to give me a friendly goodbye kiss (the way we Dutch typically do: 3 kisses on the cheeks). I was flabbergasted at the contrast in behavior. Does this sound ISTp to you?

[Slacker]

Well, when my husband and I started going out, after the first few dates I honestly thought he didn't like me. He just didn't show much response to me at all. I was mystified. He still mystifies me sometimes - I'll think he's angry or upset or something and I'll ask him what's wrong and he'll say, "Nothing's wrong. Why would you think that?" But I don't know about the joyful thing at the end. Sometimes he will suddenly surprise me and show a lot of emotion but that isn't a really common thing, and it particularly wasn't when we had just started dating.

So she could be ISTp but it's hard to say from so little information.

[consentingadult]

It was kind of a strange date anyway: I'm webmaster of a social-networking community, one were not much is going on anymore, and one day she sends me a message asking about the inactivity on the forum. But she didn't start the message with that, instead, she asked me out of the blue if I had seen 'Das Leben der Anderen'. So I thought, why would anyone start a message to a stranger with an opening like that? Anyway, I felt she was fishing, so I asked her if she wanted to go together. Somehow I feel like I completely misunderstood her emotional inhibition and fucked up the date

[xyz]

I guess the "I thought you weren't inrested in me in the beggining" must be a type thing because I've gotten that myself as well. Um, I haven't met many IEE's but one big appeal is the breath of fresh air they can bring to the most mundane (to me) things.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I guess the "I thought you weren't inrested in me in the beggining" must be a type thing because I've gotten that myself as well. Um, I haven't met many IEE's but one big appeal is the breathe of fresh air they can bring to the most mundane (to me) things.

This is very well put.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I was grinning like an idiot, going "awwwwwwww" for like a whole minute after I read this. :wink:

The emotions are within

[istpunk]

gay sex

[munenori2]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

This is perfect on so many levels.

Could you qualify this generally as an NF example? Ah, who cares!

[schrödinger's cat]

Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? ... He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". ... She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

Especially when they solve a complex (to me) problem with a very terse, matter-of-fact remark.

Sometimes I wonder if that isn't part of our Ti PoLR - an inability to see "the big picture" in one go. It's like having a multi-faceted diamond, I can only see one, two, perhaps three facets at a time. Everything looks promising, then you tilt the diamond a little and see the other facets, and it all looks bleak. At the worst, it all becomes one big tangle. ISTps seem to be good at summing things up. Without telling me what to do, trying and making up my mind for me, giving me a chilly cold-blooded Fi-less opinion that makes me slowly back out of the room, or thinking I'm merely being indecisive, inconsistent or dim.

Another thing about IEE-SLI duality: does that ever happen to anyone else? -- You tell an ISTp exactly what it is they're doing, and you're blunt, and they just grin as if they're thinking: "Yup, that's what I'm like, how wonderful that finally someone's GETTING it!" So you could say "come here and give us a hug, you sociopathic perfectionist you", and they'd take it as a compliment? (Bad example, probably..)

[Park]

No never heard of that movie, but it sounds like fun. IMDB says it's a TV show, is that right? Let's see if I can get a copy of it.

other scenes

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Tying in with the subject of my avatar, I've always seen Han Solo (ISTp) and Princess Lea (ENFp) as a good movie example of SLI-IEE duality

[xyz]

Oh how I wish saying "cool it" worked for all types...

[consentingadult]

@Winterpark

Thanks!

(why didn't I think of this myself, I goddamn built a B2B YouTube-clone myself!)

[istpunk]

gay sex

[Cuddly McFluffles]

*nods* Luke's the _NFP. One MB site had him INFP.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

*nods* Luke's the _NFP. One MB site had him INFP.

Lea is far to emotionally expressive to be ESTj.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

*grins* She is a fun character. *thinks* She can make the tough decisions, no? I would've agreed with the STJ. She doesn't feel like an N to me.

Edit: Wish I knew what my best friend was. Definite I and P, I'd guess, but not sure whether N or S and T or F. All I know is that we fit together really well.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

*grins* She is a fun character. *thinks* She can make the tough decisions, no? I would've agreed with the STJ. She doesn't feel like an N to me.

Edit: Wish I knew what my best friend was. Definite I and P, I'd guess, but not sure whether N or S and T or F. All I know is that we fit together really well.

Do you think she's quite an idealist?

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I could see that...fighting for a cause and all. She does seem different than her brother, though. He's more sensitive, while she's more no-nonsense and "get-out-of-my-way"-ish.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I could see that...fighting for a cause and all. She does seem different than her brother, though. He's more sensitive, while she's more no-nonsense and "get-out-of-my-way"-ish.

I think her actions and her decisions are more ethically based.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Yeah, all for the cause and whatnot. Still, she doesn't come across as ENFP to me. Aren't ENFPs crazy and fun? And don't they dislike telling people what to do?

[consentingadult]

Princes Leia didn't come across as a very multi-faceted individual to me, but rather simple and action oriented. But then again, George Lucas never did a great job of turning Joseph Campbell's 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' into good cinema (because that's basically what he tried). It is all rather shallow, I think, with one-dimensional characters and obvious plots.

I have spoken.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yeah, all for the cause and whatnot. Still, she doesn't come across as ENFP to me. Aren't ENFPs crazy and fun? And don't they dislike telling people what to do?

I would say that Leia may appear bossy, but under pressure she would at times back down, for instance in the early exchanges with Han Solo on the millenium falcon. This type of bossy/backing down thing could be said to be an ENFp characteritic.

Yeah..The fun and crazy ENFp's are fun and crazy But she does look a lot of fun to me (or rather she looks pretty hot in the film so maybe I think I could *have* lots of fun with her )

However, I think if you combine her primarily external idealism, coming from more an ethical viewpoint, and when you look at how her and Han Solo start off like chalk and cheese, then gradually come to realise the importance each other are to each other, (it could be viewed as a duality relation in the making) to me it does seem to point to ENFp

However, I do agree with consentingadult in the sense that character portrayal has never been one of Lucas' strong points.

So yeah.. who can really say for definite .

[thePirate]

The appeal is abit hard to understand, I get the expectations thing( I believe my ex was an ISTJ, and one of the problems was her constant expectations of things)

but other then that, what? LOL.

[JuJu]

Sup Pirate?

In my experience, the appeal is this: they let you be youself--you don't have to act for them... They accept you as you are... They're not demanding at all--the opposite. They're usually very curious about things too, so there's always stuff to do or talk about.

[idolatrie]

they let you be youself--you don't have to act for them... They accept you as you are... They're not demanding at all--the opposite. They're usually very curious about things too, so there's always stuff to do or talk about.

That does seem to describe how my IEE friend is around her duals. She comes up with zany little comments all the time and they just don't blink, and roll with whatever she says. They also don't make a big deal out of it, like call attention to it being a joke, but rather 'accept' the reality of it and play it deadpan. Umm, maybe I'm explaining this badly. I'll try to give an example.

We were both at the graduation celebration of an SLI friend of ours, and he was being all grumpy about having to deal with the 'event' of it all and his parents incessent need to take photos. My IEE friend says something like you only get two graduations (combined degrees) in your life, and when you're 80, you should be able to look back on it well.
SLI: I don't plan to live to 80
IEE: Don't tell me you plan to die at 36, that's such a cliche
SLI: Nah, somewhere between 40 and 50
IEE: But then your children will not have you around right when they go into their teens - imagine the drugs and ...drinking they will fall into
SLI: Oh, I'll train them well early on so that won't happen

And they said all of that in a light, normal tone. Meanwhile I'm going next to them because I don't like talking about people dying? Like, I *knew* it was all a joke, but um, I have this basic belief that people are talking about things they mean all the time, so I was all

When I have those kind of exchanges with the IEE, we tend to build on what each other says, until it gets more and more dramatic and collapses under the ridiculousness of it all. But the IEE and SLI seemingly could go on indefinitely.

It happens frequently too. Another time we were at lunch with a(nother) SLI and SEI. The IEE made some comment about something someone told her about monkey brains, and the practices people engage in while eating it. I immediately chimed in about seeing monkey brains in the grocery store, and then the SLI jumped in with this elaborate explanation of a family practice of his that basically validated the seemingly outlandish original statement of the IEE. The words he was saying were clearly taking the piss, but he said it completely deadpan and very convincingly, and all three of us were presenting it as if we were having a serious discussion and all the mirth was very much kept below the surface, though easy to recognise in each other. The SEI was completely lost and had no idea what we were all on about.

I've never seen a SLI sort of cut my IEE friend off because they are uninterested in what she's saying. I mean, yeah, she is a very interesting lady. But more than that, they do always seem genuinely interested - in person. And SLIs react to her very differently to the way they react to me, and to others as far as I know. They seem...lit up and brought out of their brusque exterior with her, playful and willing to joke.

I think it's cute. Really really cute.

[meatburger]

SLI: I don't plan to live to 80
IEE: Don't tell me you plan to die at 36, that's such a cliche
SLI: Nah, somewhere between 40 and 50
IEE: But then your children will not have you around right when they go into their teens - imagine the drugs and ...drinking they will fall into
SLI: Oh, I'll train them well early on so that won't happen

I shit you not my ISTp friend has said exactly the same thing to me. Hes told me more than once that he can see himself dying early (he can feel it). All i can say is that i think hes nuts. Unless ISTp's have some innate death sense that ive never heard of?? What is with that, like weak Ni or something lol.

[xyz]

I shit you not my ISTp friend has said exactly the same thing to me. Hes told me more than once that he can see himself dying early (he can feel it). All i can say is that i think hes nuts. Unless ISTp's have some innate death sense that ive never heard of?? What is with that, like weak Ni or something lol.

Prolly, I dunno. I'm frankly still surprised i'm alive.

[jessica129]

Ha. I get the feeling i'll be around a lonnng time.

[tereg]

I shit you not my ISTp friend has said exactly the same thing to me. Hes told me more than once that he can see himself dying early (he can feel it).

I'll be honest, I have this same "sense" for myself. I don't really know how to explain it, and it's not that I want to die early... it's just... it's just a weird kind of hunch that I get that my life will somehow end tragically.

[Chocolate]

My dad is SLI and quite often when he sees me holding for example cup of chocolate and going to zap it, he stops me whith smile and nodding and does it by himself. I'm definately too much scatterbrained . It's just a simple example, but everyone else always warn me with sharp tone not to spill all that stuff.

I'll be honest, I have this same "sense" for myself. I don't really know how to explain it, and it's not that I want to die early... it's just... it's just a weird kind of hunch that I get that my life will somehow end tragically.

I have the same feeling and this doesn't make me upset. It just exists.
But when I cross the street thinking of death, I sometimes feel really odd .

[Christy B]

I shit you not my ISTp friend has said exactly the same thing to me. Hes told me more than once that he can see himself dying early (he can feel it). All i can say is that i think hes nuts. Unless ISTp's have some innate death sense that ive never heard of?? What is with that, like weak Ni or something lol.

SLI I dated thought he was going to die early too. Doesn't actually want to live to be old either because bodies kind of fall apart. He finds old people repulsive and didn't want to be one.

I love old people

[mikemex]

Hes told me more than once that he can see himself dying early (he can feel it).

I've heard that from my SEI friend too.

[meatburger]

wow? Ok so its not type related (not like i really thought it was with any conviction). Occording to me anyway, this feeling is illogical so i ignore it. I must admit i dont relish the idea of being old but i will do so gracefully im sure. I do have a strong sense that all humans are teetering on the brink of death, it just takes one small occurance and BAM your dead. Ive just accepted that i cant really control that tho and we will see what happens. I dont really have any sense of my own death though, i just hope its later rather than sooner!

@ Chocolate haha i like your avatar and name its just very cute.

[jessica129]

Doesn't actually want to live to be old either because bodies kind of fall apart. He finds old people repulsive and didn't want to be one.

I'm the same. I was a caretaker for seniors for some time and it really depressed me. The whole steady decline, reliance upon others and meaninglessness of life makes me not want to live to that age. But I don't think i'll ever get to that point. I would hate to be a burden to people. The day I have to start wearing diapers, someone has my permission to off me.

[Lotus]

I'm the same. I was a caretaker for seniors for some time and it really depressed me. The whole steady decline, reliance upon others and meaninglessness of life makes me not want to live to that age. But I don't think i'll ever get to that point. I would hate to be a burden to people. The day I have to start wearing diapers, someone has my permission to off me.

Ugh, I feel the same way.