Quasi-identical differences: IEI-INFp and EII-INFj

[CuriousSoul]

Interesting, always nice to have other enthusiasts too..
I am currently trying to figure out whether I am INFP or INFJ. I test as INFP but I am probably so familiar with socionics that the tests have become more or less meaningless, you pretty much know what the questions are about etc. Would you, or anyone else, happen to have any ideas how to tell INFPs and INFJs apart?

[Creepy-]

Would you, or anyone else, happen to have any ideas how to tell INFPs and INFJs apart?

They have different facial expressions and mannerisms. Both try to be polite, but INFP's smile more often. And INFJ's use "direct" speech and INFP's use "indirect" speech.

[SFVB]

CuriousSoul,

The indeciseveness in your posts would indicate to me that you are most likely an INFj. Introverted feeling, which is a rational function, means you are very dilligent and not impulsive about coming to a final conclusion about things. Introverted thinkers are the same, only they tend to grasp logical ideas much faster than an introverted feeler, although the opposite would be said for relationship ethics (e.g. knowing how people feel about one another.) I, as an INTj, have a very difficult time knowing if someone likes me, and also if I like them. With a new romantic interest, I will often go back and forth, back and forth often never coming to a conclusion on whether they are interested in me or even if I'm truly interested in them. I try to analyze my own emotions which is near impossible as they by nature will effect my judgement and lessen my objectivity towards the woman.

Stable-reserved types (INTj, INFj, ISFj, and ISTj) do not like to make hasty decisions, and INTjs and INFjs especially like the final decision to be as close to perfect or accurate as possible when finally made. I myself went back and forth on my own type for many months before settling on INTj, because I had just started studying typology, and was therefore realizing that I didn't really have enough information to be comfortable with my final decision,

Here's a test for you though concerning the INFp - INFj issue...

Are you "turned-on" by dangerous aggressive situations, and aggressive physical people? Do you find yourself drawn to people with power and situations in which you feel powerful?

Are you "turned-n" by learning new things and acquiring new knowledge? Do you like to listen to people talk about facts and history? Do you like being in a position where you are able to feel knowledgeable and competent in your undertaking? Do you like to teach others?

If you answered yes to question one...you are MOST likely an INFp.

If you answered yes to question two...you are MOST likely an INFj.

If neither apply to you, then you might want to consider another type...such as INTj. Sometimes, especially if you are female, societal upbringing can force a more well-developed feeling function than might be found in men of the same type. Many INTj women especially can come across as warmer and more sensitive than their male counter-parts because they have learned that's what is expected of them. I would say though, that from reading your posts throughout this forum, that you are most likely an INFj, or quite possibly an INTj. Hope that helped.

[Creepy-]

INFPs turned on by dangerous, aggresive situation?

wow, i never knew that.

[MysticSonic]

More like aggressive people. Remember, once they know they get a whiff of that cheese, they are compelled to find it.

[indigoroom]

/offtopic: yeah, one more INFP in the game (myself)
but my english is so ridiculous that I prefer only to read.

Do you like being in a position where you are able to feel knowledgeable and competent in your undertaking?

....

[Creepy-]

More like aggressive people. Remember, once they know they get a whiff of that cheese, they are compelled to find it.

aggresive people... i guess so. more like authoritative and proactive people. but depending on the situation, they can turn me off as well. i find that i tend to avoid relatives who are domineering or loud. i often end up stonewalling in their presence.

the reason i asked SFVB is because, as an INFP, i definitely don't get turned on by dangerous, aggresive situations. i'm not interested in watching movies like 'Rambo' or seeing wrestlers beating the living daylights out of each other.

[Labyrinth]

What I might do in CuriousSoul's case is consider the hidden agenda of the INFj vs. the INFp, this helped me greatly in identifying myself as an INTp vs. INTj. I took one look at the hidden agendas and understood immediately that I wasn't an INTj, and also later actually meeting an INTj type made me understand the difference in general much more clearly.

The hidden agenda of the INFj is to be healthy, and the INFp's is to understand. I'm not sure how these manifest themselves or how they feel in the mind of folks with these types, but as either an INFj or an INFp you might know immediately. I personally would have a much easier time deciding on INFj or INFp if I was looking at one, because the V.I.'s are radically different in my opinion, especially in the way the two walk and the facial expressions they make. I don't know if I agree with INFp's being "turned on" by dangerous situations, sounds more specific to personality than to a socionics type.

To respond to SFVB's original post, I can relate to having difficulty getting other folks interested in socionics, it seems like a lot of them get hung up on the idea that one type is better than another, and even if I can convince them that this isn't at all true, and that's not what the science is about, many of them seem to dislike the idea that they have a "type" of any kind, I guess they see it as kind of limiting somehow. It's a shame but as an INTp i'm used to being the one in the group with strange and unusual interests :-)

[discourse]

I know two INFps. As we all know, they have their hidden agenda being Ti- The Structural Logic. As Sergei Ganin sayd, it's suicidal for INFp to admit that he or she is not understanding something. But this function is not switched on all the time. It someting like a supportive function. When needed, INFp can well illustrate it's talking with scientithic theories. But those theories are not acquiered fully, but as an interesting illustrations, which it thinks are acquiered fully and very good. Ti is weak and INFp is bad at calculating something, when needed, f.e calculating the prize at the MacDonald's, INFp long thinks how much money it has to give. INFp thinks it's Ti being very strong, but how ever, INFp has hard times, when explaining something structurally, makes everithing going fuzzy, but doesn't admit it and takes for an help it's Fi to deter others dissapointmentes. How ever, INFp has a good memory, cause of it's Ni- the Intuition of Time, which greatly remembers occasions. INFp is fascinated by brand new scientithic theories and it well remembers how some experiment was done or how to work on the task in laboratory.Ni also helps INFp to spot contradictions in others thoughts and at INFps most voluminious field of knowledge, it likes to demonstrate it's logical abilites of spoting illogicality.


INFps Ti much affects it's career choise. Cause of it's Ni, INFp is good at math, chemistry, biology, but doesn't like Physics, cause of it's practicalness demanding the use of Te, which is very weak in INFp, f.e INFp delays a lot with matters of hard work. But INFp conciders it self being very logical and talented at elementary science, so it chooses for it self career as biologist or gene technologist or in any other field of mathematical scienceses. It's not bad acutally at that, it becomes into intellectual, but how ever it's scientithic work becomes very specific, it is bad explaining things in common language and INFp doesn't form good and usefull hypothesis for the growth of science.

INFp is also facinated by people with strong Ti. INFp is driven for the people who are with good analytical abilities. It becomes exited and cheeres that person to speak about it's theories. At conversations it constantly demands colluctor to speak something intelligent and smart. Usually INFp likes ENTps and I am not surprised if INFP marries a lot into Illusionary Relations.

[Hector]

What are some easy ways to tell whether or not someone is an INFp or INFj? Are there any tells, so to speak, that would make it clear which type a person is?

[ThePeddler]

I think a good way would be with their self-image. An INFp and INFj i know have strong differences in that. The INFj goes on and on about how principled and morally developed she is. The INFp is less serious. She's okay apearing less adultlike. The INFj is more critical. INFp is more random.

INFj had more inside jokes and was more likely to split groups up. The INFp tried to be in the larger group. INFj was always trying to make things more personal then they were. INFj also did more things on principal. INFj also acted more delicate, like really feminine, and the INFp is like <_< >_> "...ok"
And something that might go against popular opionion, but in my experience, the INFp is okay with showing the world how depressed she was, and the INFj tries to hide her depression and blend into the Emotional Background.

(INFj may be ISFj, IDK, seems more Delta and Intuitive...) (I'm sure of the INFp's type,and she also typed herself)

The INFp is like my best friend. And the INFj was more like a close acquaintance.

[redbaron]

My mother is an INFj and I'm an INFp. My mom rarely shows her negative emotions even with family and I feel free to let eveyone see if I'm depressed (with family anyway. Sometimes I sigh really loudly if I'm depressed among acquaintances. My mother would never do this. She would sit there stoically or smile slightly as if nothing were wrong). She emphasizes her moral principals and I tend to see things from a variety of viewpoints (not that I don't have morals, just that I'm not emphasizing them all the time). My mom thinks she's not very smart and always raves about other people's smarts or looks or whatever. She's getting better at not putting herself down but I would say that she has a worse self image than I do. I have moments of emotional intensity, she seems very even-keeled, emotionally.

[machintruc]

The difference is that EII are more likely to get angry than IEI.

[redbaron]

The difference is that EII are more likely to get angry than IEI.

Yes. Although my mother does a good job of hiding her anger. I'm almost never angry. Sad, yes. Angry, no.

[eunice]

I feel free to let eveyone see if I'm depressed (with family anyway. Sometimes I sigh really loudly if I'm depressed among acquaintances. My mother would never do this.She emphasizes her moral principals and I tend to see things from a variety of viewpoints (not that I don't have morals, just that I'm not emphasizing them all the time). My mom thinks she's not very smart and always raves about other people's smarts or looks or whatever. She's getting better at not putting herself down but I would say that she has a worse self image than I do. I have moments of emotional intensity, she seems very even-keeled, emotionally.

I'm like you in that aspect, redbaron. (I'm not implying that I'm an INFp, but rather INFjs are likely to do that as well.)

[uninspired]

INFp:

INFj:

INFp's will give them the impression of being very warm, friendly, and emotionally open people. They'll likely jump at the opportunity to say hi to you (if they know you, that is), and will ask all sorts of questions about you and your emotional life in casual conversation. [s:c079b6b36d]They have strong morals, but their is considerably weaker than their , leading them to sometimes sacrifice principle to achieve desirable relations with others.[/s:c079b6b36d] (I'm rethinking this concept. My moral system may be more focused on outward treatment of others). Still, I've made some significant blunders in my life that I still can't stop thinking about, even to this day.

INFj's will give them the impression of being very moral, ascetic beings. They are kind and approachable, but unlike their bubblier INFp counterparts, they radiate a seeming sadness and seriousness. They value self-sacrifice, loyalty, steadfastness, and principle. Their is considerably weaker than their , making them seem cold and unfeeling at times. I once asked about an INFj I knew, "is she as mean as she looks?"


INFp: dual seeking

INFj: dual seeking

INFps crave adventure and stimulation. They love exciting, novel atmospheres in which they can meet all sorts of new people and have all sorts of new experiences. I, for one, can't get enough of road trips . They can also be very sexually adventurous and rebellious despite seeming modest at first. They are also very spontaneous and love doing things on the fly.

INFjs crave atmospheres in which they can discuss their values and other topics of intellectual interest with close friends. They're often serious, religious (if not observantly religious, philosophical) people who value stability and self-improvement. In defense of my fellow INFps, we are also very serious and value intellectualism and self-improvement, but not to the degree which INFjs do.

Lastly

INFp: POLr

INFj: POLr

INFp's POLr manifests itself in their lack of organization and difficulty with business matters. Anything involving economics, bureaucratic paperwork, applying for jobs, etc. is anathema to INFps. They can do it when they apply themselves, but it will never be natural or enjoyable for them.

INFj's POLr manifests itself in their aversion to change, squeamishness about health, and dislike of rough humor. They're also very sensitive to their physical surroundings. I'm probably missing a lot of things when I discuss the POLr, but in essence its much more than being unathletic or tripping over things (I actually know some very athletic INFjs).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are a few things to look at.

Oh, and also:

EII is also more likely to get angry.

Not true. It is very easy for me to get angry, especially righteously indignant. My fury is unmatched when someone treats me or my loved ones poorly, takes advantage of someone weaker than them, refuses to respect me and others, doesn't CARE about others, or does anything mean-spirited or unjust. Perhaps you could say this is INFj-esque, but I find it doesn't at all conflict with my being INFp. It's a form of ethics, so to speak.
But back to the discussion about anger. I wouldn't be averse to saying that I'm angry, even furious, most of the time, especially regarding politics. A lot of INFps are social activists, but we burn out easily due to the emotional investment we put into our causes.
I would say the key difference, in essence, is that INFps and INFjs get angry about different things. There's probably some overlap regarding the social issues that I just discussed, but in other matters there are differences. INFps get angrier when someone is treated badly, whereas INFjs get angrier when someone does something contrary to their morals, i.e. someone not keeping a promise. This area is very nebulous, however, and requires further thought and elucidation.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

INFj anger seems to be more of a 'righteous' anger, e.g. about global issues, or whether someone has acted improperly etc. - INFps on the otherhand, don't like people telling them what they should make of their lives etc.

[aka-kitsune]

Just orienting myself to this forum... in Jungian typology and Myers-Briggs, I test INFP. I identify strongly with the pure forms of Fi and Ne -- convinced that my primary function is Fi. As an introvert, my first impulse is to "feel" internally my reactions to things in the external.

Does that make me INFj in Socionics? The one time I took the Socionics test, I still came out INFp. However, I can't really "unlearn" my concepts of the pure functions and just accept that I'd be Fe and Ni.

How does one reconcile the different typologies?

[Expat]

Just orienting myself to this forum... in Jungian typology and Myers-Briggs, I test INFP. I identify strongly with the pure forms of Fi and Ne -- convinced that my primary function is Fi. As an introvert, my first impulse is to "feel" internally my reactions to things in the external.

That is not a good definition of Fi in socionics or in Jung, it might be so in Myers-Briggs. In socionics, what you described is perfectly consistent with being INFp, that is NiFe, where Fe is "catching" the external emotional atmosphere and influencing what you feel internally.

Does that make me INFj in Socionics?

No, and it's too little information to be sure.

The one time I took the Socionics test, I still came out INFp. However, I can't really "unlearn" my concepts of the pure functions and just accept that I'd be Fe and Ni.

How does one reconcile the different typologies?

The first step is indeed to "unlearn" it and understand each typology's concept of the functions in their own terms. Jung's functions and socionics' functions are similar, but still significantly different, while Myers-Briggs has made a total mess of the functions.

So far I'd say that you're more likely INFp than INFj in socionics, assuming you're one of the two.

[aka-kitsune]

In socionics, what you described is perfectly consistent with being INFp, that is NiFe, where Fe is "catching" the external emotional atmosphere and influencing what you feel internally.

But the focus is external then?

The first step is indeed to "unlearn" it and understand each typology's concept of the functions in their own terms. Jung's functions and socionics' functions are similar, but still significantly different, while Myers-Briggs has made a total mess of the functions.

With Myers-Briggs, are you referring to the Introvert-Extrovert dominant functions, where the J-P orientation indicates the secondary extroverted function? As I recall, MB introduced the J-P element based on Jung's definitions of rational and irrational functions.

So far I'd say that you're more likely INFp than INFj in socionics, assuming you're one of the two.

It does fit better than the INFj description. My Oldham results indicated a cluster of high Idiosyncratic, Dramatic, Sensitive and Self-Confident responses. Always found that high Dramatic result puzzling, being so self-conscious.

[Expat]

But the focus is external then?

The main focus of the INFp is internal, based on Ni which are very personal images and of time-flow. But these are shaped by external emotional focus. If it is seen as unsatisfactory, the internal Ni focus is not satisfactory either.

With Myers-Briggs, are you referring to the Introvert-Extrovert dominant functions, where the J-P orientation indicates the secondary extroverted function? As I recall, MB introduced the J-P element based on Jung's definitions of rational and irrational functions.

I meant that if you look at Myers-Briggs from the point of view of functions, it's not consistent with socionics at all and not with Jung very much either.

In socionics, the rationality or irrationality of your base function - whether introverted or extroverted - defines your general irrationality or irrationality.

[Danielle]

I thought I was sure, my type definitely INFj, EII, etc. But now I'm not sure if I really understand what INFj is all about. My main cause of confusion right now: what is the IJ temperament all about? That's what has got me wondering. To help me figure this out, I will compare the Filatova descriptions of INFp and INFj:

The IEI’s principal value in the world: the luxurious gardens of his own imagination. Through this it is possible for him to penetrate into the past and future, to feel the surrounding world in its wholeness, to observe the dynamics of present occurrences, and furthermore (Fi) to emotionally inspire people to take charge of activities deemed necessary.

I usually don't know what the future will bring, although I'm really good at coming up with many different possibilities for the future of something/someone. I'm all about potential and the lack of same. I always thought that was . But the one true future? No. And I get uncomfortable when people try to get me to nail it down. I actually have difficulty envisioning my own future, I can't see it with any detail, I just know it's coming and I know I can handle it whatever it is. And when people ask for my insight into their futures, I really dislike that. For example, I have an ESFp friend who is always asking me what I think is going to happen with this boyfriend or that boyfriend. She asks me because I have a lot of insight into why people behave the way that they do, and the attitudes people have and what those things mean. All of that I associate with . So I can say, "he's a bad person, don't try to see the good in him cause it's not there and never will be". But I can't tell her if she will develop a physical attraction to a guy she's only emotionally into right now. I just don't know.

The EII’s condition of normal life represents itself in the harmony of human relations, the observance of norms of ethics, morals, and the cautious storage of traditions. Therefore she finds it necessary to occupy herself with matters of moral refinement, to develop spirituality, and to seek true values in others.

I'm not sure I know what this means. I'm preoccupied with what kind of person someone really is, and why they treat others the way they do. Sometimes a good person treats someone else badly. The worst though, is when a bad person acts good and people fall for it. I feel very strongly that I can tell if a person is essentially good or bad. What information element is that?

One of my dominant activities is bringing good people into harmony with one another, and protecting them from bad people. I often serve as the mediator and I'm pretty good at coming up with solutions that will work for both parties.

He’s drawn towards novels containing fantasy and adventure. Here he participates, together with imaginary heroes, in his adventures. The IEI loves to give himself up, for long periods, dreaming.

Fantasy and adventure are my favorite novels, the only kind I read, as I have come to prefer non-fiction. And I do love to get carried away by my imagination for long, long periods of time. I often feel like paying attention to the "real world" is mundane, disappointing and burdensome. It's hard for me to stay focused. So, point for IEI I guess.

In fact, the only reason I'm considering IEI at all is that I think I might be an irrational, dreamer type. I spend precious little of my time doing any kind of work. I'm also not neat and tidy at all. But the following fits me very much:

When she first arrives amongst a group of people she holds herself back. Once she has established a degree of control in regards to the psychological atmosphere of occurences within the group, and only then, after she has soaked herself in the atmosphere, will she consider becoming a full-fledged member of the collective.

EII often makes acquaintence with those that are weak or unhappy. These people serve to incite the desire to help, to support, and to comfort others, within her. To her others will frequently turn for help and she accepts them by examining their confessions for hours on end. She attempts to get accustomed to the psychological difficulties being experienced by the collocutor and she tries to take their side and support them.

I don't even like strong people. The weak, the misunderstood, the outcast, the underdog...those are my people. And those friends I have who try to be strong know that they can come to me with any depravity, anything at all, because if I've determined the essence of someone's character, I don't care how they behave. It's the weak who really need me. However, I'm not good at comforting people with words. I comfort people because I'll listen to anything they want to say, for however long they need to say it. And I always take their side.

I don't want this post to go on too long, I feel like I'm confusing myself. I identify strongly with Delta quadra, and not at all with Beta. Really I don't. I'm pretty serious, even if I am a dreamer. But I'm also really go-with-the-flow. I hate when people make others feel bad, which is why I just can't get with ESTps or the Beta sense of humor, or Beta "honesty". I like things to be soft, stable and comfortable. I want someone to take care of me, not push me. Ew, I don't like being pushed. I like being catered to. Seems clear I must be EII, right? But I identify with IP. I'm just confused.

[Ms. Kensington]

i am an INTj and we share an Se polr. I also identify strongly with IP temperament. I think you're INFj.

[Expat]

I'm not sure I know what this means. I'm preoccupied with what kind of person someone really is, and why they treat others the way they do. Sometimes a good person treats someone else badly. The worst though, is when a bad person acts good and people fall for it. I feel very strongly that I can tell if a person is essentially good or bad. What information element is that?

That is . Your post, as well as the other one addressed to Phaedrus in the MBTI thread, suggests very strongly that you are EII and not IEI.

As for the IP temperament, I think you're probably looking at external behavioral traits rather than what really makes the temperament. I will say that the present temperament descriptions (like those by me in the wikisocion) aren't helping. Probably the "go-with-the-flow" thing should be elaborated on. The "go-with-the-flow" is a more internal thing; where INFjs do NOT go with the flow at all is in matters, and that's what counts.

[Ezra]

This one is easy. Enter into a relationship with a certified SLE, and if after two years you have committed suicide, you are an EIE.

[aka-kitsune]

I thought I was sure, my type definitely INFj, EII, etc. But now I'm not sure if I really understand what INFj is all about. My main cause of confusion right now: what is the IJ temperament all about?

I usually don't know what the future will bring, although I'm really good at coming up with many different possibilities for the future of something/someone. I'm all about potential and the lack of same. I always thought that was . But the one true future? No. And I get uncomfortable when people try to get me to nail it down. I actually have difficulty envisioning my own future, I can't see it with any detail, I just know it's coming and I know I can handle it whatever it is.

I'm definitely IEI and I don't have this ability either. Although I dislike not knowing how things in a given situation are going to proceed (especially romantic ones), I prefer the uncertainty to pushing a premature conclusion just to be sure. I do find that the more I want something to go a certain way, the more scrambled I get in attempting to influence the outcome.

And when people ask for my insight into their futures, I really dislike that. For example, I have an ESFp friend who is always asking me what I think is going to happen with this boyfriend or that boyfriend. She asks me because I have a lot of insight into why people behave the way that they do, and the attitudes people have and what those things mean. All of that I associate with . So I can say, "he's a bad person, don't try to see the good in him cause it's not there and never will be". But I can't tell her if she will develop a physical attraction to a guy she's only emotionally into right now. I just don't know.

I've also done quite a lot of introspection about other peoples' motivations for what they do and how they react. I'm quite good at gleaning insight about other people, but often hapless to take my own advice.

I'm not sure I know what this means. I'm preoccupied with what kind of person someone really is, and why they treat others the way they do. Sometimes a good person treats someone else badly. The worst though, is when a bad person acts good and people fall for it. I feel very strongly that I can tell if a person is essentially good or bad. What information element is that?

I usually don't tend to think in terms of essential "good" or "bad". That sounds very INFj, actually, INFp doesn't tend toward definitive judgements. There's an awful lot of gray.

One of my dominant activities is bringing good people into harmony with one another, and protecting them from bad people. I often serve as the mediator and I'm pretty good at coming up with solutions that will work for both parties.

This doesn't sound IEI either. I don't feel compulsion to "protect" anyone. Again, "good vs. bad" is not the level of judgement I tend to make on a regular basis. I don't particularly like to get in the middle of situations, either.

Fantasy and adventure are my favorite novels, the only kind I read, as I have come to prefer non-fiction. And I do love to get carried away by my imagination for long, long periods of time. I often feel like paying attention to the "real world" is mundane, disappointing and burdensome. It's hard for me to stay focused. So, point for IEI I guess.

I relate to those sentiments also.

EII often makes acquaintence with those that are weak or unhappy. These people serve to incite the desire to help, to support, and to comfort others, within her. To her others will frequently turn for help and she accepts them by examining their confessions for hours on end. She attempts to get accustomed to the psychological difficulties being experienced by the collocutor and she tries to take their side and support them.

This description sounds exactly like what you have been describing about yourself.

I don't even like strong people. The weak, the misunderstood, the outcast, the underdog...those are my people. And those friends I have who try to be strong know that they can come to me with any depravity, anything at all, because if I've determined the essence of someone's character, I don't care how they behave. It's the weak who really need me. However, I'm not good at comforting people with words. I comfort people because I'll listen to anything they want to say, for however long they need to say it. And I always take their side.

I've actually found I find it a little difficult to prop other people up when they're down. Like I don't want them to get too dependent on me. While I care about my friends dearly, I'm often not sure how to support them, ie: WHAT they actually need from me. I am willing to listen to anything they care to tell me. And I never criticize. (Although I will carefully point out what they might need to look at to take steps).

Occasionally, I'm hesitant to "take sides", and have caught flak from friends who expect this.

I'm pretty serious, even if I am a dreamer. But I'm also really go-with-the-flow. I hate when people make others feel bad, which is why I just can't get with ESTps or the Beta sense of humor, or Beta "honesty". I like things to be soft, stable and comfortable. I want someone to take care of me, not push me. Ew, I don't like being pushed. I like being catered to. Seems clear I must be EII, right? But I identify with IP. I'm just confused.

I guess Beta humor can be often sarcastic and cutting. Depends what the target is, I guess. Beta "honesty", eh? Is this a tendency to be unwilling to sugar-coat things?

You seem very adamant about closure, which I tend to think would associate you with INFj. Visionary element, but with more motivation to actually get out and apply your idealism in your interactions with others.

[UDP]

This one is easy. Enter into a relationship with a certified SLE, and if after two years you have committed suicide, you are an EII.

[Slacker]

You sound much more INFj than INFp to me.

[Danielle]

Thanks for the feedback, and so quick too. I'm a Socionics novice, so I'm still wading through this. There's something about the tone used to describe EIIs that is disconcerting me. For example, EIIs are said to work from "dawn to dawn". They're also really "self-sacrificing" and dutiful. Well, I'm pretty lazy, and I tend to avoid responsibility. Oh, and the EII cannot abide being untidy, according to socioniko.net. But I've always been leisurely and slow, and I can't keep things clean at all. I feel like my soul is being drained when I have to clean something. My living quarters are always a mess. I won't clean the kitchen, but I also can't cook in a dirty kitchen, even mildly dirty/cluttered. If someone else were to clean for me, I'd definitely appreciate and respect that. I want things neat, organized and clean. I just can't do it. So what does that say with regard to ? Is that hidden agenda? But how could an INFj be a mess, as I am? Well, on the outside I'm a mess, but on the inside, I am very steady. I think it's clear that I'm INFj, I just don't understand everything as well as I'd like.

[implied]

Thanks for the feedback, and so quick too. I'm a Socionics novice, so I'm still wading through this. There's something about the tone used to describe EIIs that is disconcerting me. For example, EIIs are said to work from "dawn to dawn". They're also really "self-sacrificing" and dutiful. Well, I'm pretty lazy, and I tend to avoid responsibility. Oh, and the EII cannot abide being untidy, according to socioniko.net. But I've always been leisurely and slow, and I can't keep things clean at all. I feel like my soul is being drained when I have to clean something. My living quarters are always a mess. I won't clean the kitchen, but I also can't cook in a dirty kitchen, even mildly dirty/cluttered. If someone else were to clean for me, I'd definitely appreciate and respect that. I want things neat, organized and clean. I just can't do it. So what does that say with regard to ? Is that hidden agenda? But how could an INFj be a mess, as I am? Well, on the outside I'm a mess, but on the inside, I am very steady. I think it's clear that I'm INFj, I just don't understand everything as well as I'd like.

don't ESTjs do a reasonable amount of this sort of cleaning, too (like ESFjs)? your "if someone were to clean for me..." thing sounds like seeking out a type, to me. one thing to note is how you react if you have to stay in a house that is excessively dirty and disorganized, where there's not really any structure or organization at all.


the other thing is that i do not believe INFjs are suckers like they get made out to be here. see the description of the INFj in this article by meged that i like. i don't it's like they're unkind people or something. just that they aren't willing to let *anything* pass. self-sacrificing isn't exactly the word i would use.

[Expat]

But I've always been leisurely and slow, and I can't keep things clean at all. I feel like my soul is being drained when I have to clean something. My living quarters are always a mess. I won't clean the kitchen, but I also can't cook in a dirty kitchen, even mildly dirty/cluttered. If someone else were to clean for me, I'd definitely appreciate and respect that. I want things neat, organized and clean. I just can't do it. So what does that say with regard to ?

It says that you value but you need someone's help on that. That is, you have a ego type as your dual.

[Mea]

I think EII. She sounds so much like Minde IMO.

Umm. Slight possibility of IEE? I dunno.

[ScarlettLux]

No way you are IEI

[Danielle]

Okay, I accept it. I am not IEI. But why "no way"? I have some ideas now from this thread. For example, I think I understand about valuing but needing help with it. Just from observing me, I bet people wouldn't be able to tell at first, since I don't seem to do much about my health, nor am I a clean person (very shameful to have to admit that). Also, I am very sensitive to loud noises, bright lights, tastes, etc. (as the Si hidden agenda is described on the wiki). I crave physical comfort, because a physically safe, soft, comfortable, steady environment makes it easier for me to be emotionally stable and exercise my imagination. As it is, I often find myself in the caretaker role of others but secretly I want someone else to handle that for me.

Do IEIs not value ? What does that look like? And what is negative versus positive? I don't understand any of that yet, because I haven't found a good explanation. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[ScarlettLux]

We definitely don't value . We have an role function. What you just described sounds perfectly like hidden agenda - needing help with all the stuff you just said is definitely hidden agenda, not role. You seem to really appreciate a CAREGIVER, that would be your Dual, the LSE ... IEIs prefer an Aggressor who focuses on instead of (SLE)

Role is a bit hard to describe. For me, it's the feeling of discomfort internally, all the time. It's a very awkward feeling and I hate it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and have someone pour all over me so the awkward moments would go away instead of wanting help with it like you do. The awkwardness can be things like not feeling attractive all the time ... sometimes I will constantly feel like my hair's all out of whack, etc... just not being comfortable. I put extra effort into looking good, which a lot of IEIs do and that is really indicative of an role, it's a bit overblown and exaggerated. Also, I am extremely fucking clumsy and gahhhh, hate that about myself. Especially if I'm trying to impress someone, I will stutter and trip over myself. Jeez. I do not pay any attention to my surroundings, don't know how they really relate to me.

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

[force my hand]

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

What about 'chillax'?

( :wink: )

[Ezra]

We definitely don't value . We have an role function. What you just described sounds perfectly like hidden agenda - needing help with all the stuff you just said is definitely hidden agenda, not role. You seem to really appreciate a CAREGIVER, that would be your Dual, the LSE ... IEIs prefer an Aggressor who focuses on instead of (SLE)

Role is a bit hard to describe. For me, it's the feeling of discomfort internally, all the time. It's a very awkward feeling and I hate it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and have someone pour all over me so the awkward moments would go away instead of wanting help with it like you do. The awkwardness can be things like not feeling attractive all the time ... sometimes I will constantly feel like my hair's all out of whack, etc... just not being comfortable. I put extra effort into looking good, which a lot of IEIs do and that is really indicative of an role, it's a bit overblown and exaggerated. Also, I am extremely fucking clumsy and gahhhh, hate that about myself. Especially if I'm trying to impress someone, I will stutter and trip over myself. Jeez. I do not pay any attention to my surroundings, don't know how they really relate to me.

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

Awww, you're such a cutie.

[aka-kitsune]

Role is a bit hard to describe. For me, it's the feeling of discomfort internally, all the time. It's a very awkward feeling and I hate it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and have someone pour all over me so the awkward moments would go away instead of wanting help with it like you do. The awkwardness can be things like not feeling attractive all the time ... sometimes I will constantly feel like my hair's all out of whack, etc... just not being comfortable.

'

Totally! From day to day I can feel completely different about my overall attractiveness. Even from one hour to the next. Focusing on some seemingly small and insignificant flaw can completely change my feelings.

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

Don't you want to just throttle them? I've gone off on tirades just to prove a point about that. :wink:

[aka-kitsune]

We definitely don't value . We have an role function. What you just described sounds perfectly like hidden agenda - needing help with all the stuff you just said is definitely hidden agenda, not role. You seem to really appreciate a CAREGIVER, that would be your Dual, the LSE ... IEIs prefer an Aggressor who focuses on instead of (SLE)

Role is a bit hard to describe. For me, it's the feeling of discomfort internally, all the time. It's a very awkward feeling and I hate it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and have someone pour all over me so the awkward moments would go away instead of wanting help with it like you do. The awkwardness can be things like not feeling attractive all the time ... sometimes I will constantly feel like my hair's all out of whack, etc... just not being comfortable. I put extra effort into looking good, which a lot of IEIs do and that is really indicative of an role, it's a bit overblown and exaggerated. Also, I am extremely fucking clumsy and gahhhh, hate that about myself. Especially if I'm trying to impress someone, I will stutter and trip over myself. Jeez. I do not pay any attention to my surroundings, don't know how they really relate to me.

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

Awww, you're such a cutie.

Ugh! Infantile role baby talk!

[ScarlettLux]

We definitely don't value . We have an role function. What you just described sounds perfectly like hidden agenda - needing help with all the stuff you just said is definitely hidden agenda, not role. You seem to really appreciate a CAREGIVER, that would be your Dual, the LSE ... IEIs prefer an Aggressor who focuses on instead of (SLE)

Role is a bit hard to describe. For me, it's the feeling of discomfort internally, all the time. It's a very awkward feeling and I hate it. I wish I didn't have to deal with it, and have someone pour all over me so the awkward moments would go away instead of wanting help with it like you do. The awkwardness can be things like not feeling attractive all the time ... sometimes I will constantly feel like my hair's all out of whack, etc... just not being comfortable. I put extra effort into looking good, which a lot of IEIs do and that is really indicative of an role, it's a bit overblown and exaggerated. Also, I am extremely fucking clumsy and gahhhh, hate that about myself. Especially if I'm trying to impress someone, I will stutter and trip over myself. Jeez. I do not pay any attention to my surroundings, don't know how they really relate to me.

Oh, and I forgot one huge thing: I can NOT "relllllllllllax" as the Ego and Dual seeking types all want... gosh, the whole idea of people telling me to relax annoys me.

Awww, you're such a cutie.

What are you trying to do here *suspicious eyes*