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Last edited by Animal; 06-23-2010 at 05:34 PM.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
This is true for ENFjs. It sounds right with a relationship between me and an ENFj I once had.
Ah great. Good to know. What type are you Jimbean, btw?
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Auvi, could you maybe give a Real Life example of this occurring between a Victim and Aggressor? That first post was great, nicely written, but I still can't quite see how it would work... I mean, I am definitely a Victim.. I think I "challenge" the Aggressor by being really stand-offish because of my anxiety/paranoia about the state of the relationship and keep pushing it and being annoying, really wanting them to just say everything is fine in a willful way and kiss me.
I want them to want me, basically, and I want them to show me that through their aggression, there is no room for doubts. I am constantly worried, doubting. I need reassurance... but I play and "act" as if I don't care, but inside there is a lot of turmoil. I will grow cold, not be affectionate, see if that bothers them but secretly want them to just take me in their arms..
Sure thing. Basically, the Victim wants to have a sense of control of the emotional tonus of the relationship. If the Aggressor comes on too strong and tries to force that power away from you, you'll probably end up rejecting them. You need someone who will accept your role as the person who sets the pace for the relationship, but will confirm for you that they really, really want you.
For example (and this is a slightly over-the-top example, but it's happened), at a party a guy might come up to you and demand that you get down an dirty with him right then and there. You might be attracted to his confidence, but will probably be turned off by the fleeting and superficial nature of his advances. What's more, it's premature. There's no romance. It's just crude sex that you'll most probably regret later. You might act cold. Possibly trying to stir up something - willfully ruffling up his emotions and trying to get a feel for his reactions. If the guy gets frustrated that you're being so hard-to-get, you know he probably doesn't have any feelings for you other than just wanting to have sex with you. If he doesn't - if he plays along and puts up with your game - you naturally feel more connected with him and are more willing to accept his advances.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Do you think there is any difference between rational and irrational V/A interactoins?
My reaction:
[spoil:807df5a1bb]No fucking way - not in my house.Originally Posted by Baby
That description is completely unappealing - all sorts of wasted energy and time.
No way. I am way too domineering to put up with any of that. None of that is intriguing or peaceful to me.. In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even.
There will be peace in our relationship or there will not be one. Deal with it.[/spoil:807df5a1bb]
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
That seems totally beta though. Is gamma that way too?Originally Posted by Baby
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Gamma probably works somewhat differently. The Victim uses Te instead of Fe to "challenge" the Aggressor. But the underlying framework remains the same, IME - Se (physical action), tempered by Ni (intuiting the future implications of that action). I'm not sure there would be too much of a difference between the rational and irrational V/A pairings.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Mm-hm. Sounds about right.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I think when the aggressor is the introvert, the victim is more of an initiator than with ESxp/INxp relations. The victim gives the aggressor cues, and the aggressor responds decisively, taking the steps the victim is hinting they should take.
Makes sense.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
What, do you want a podium to brag about how many people you let get inside of you?Originally Posted by Herzy
Go ahead.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
(imo, the fewer people someone has slept with the more attractive they are)
well said.Originally Posted by Baby
yes, sex is a predictable course along a long line of miniscule (not-even-a-bleep-on- the-stimulation radar) events.
that is why when i cannot intuit the future implications of an action, i turn cold. an example is my ESFp ex at a few points successfully recording our sessions without my knowledge. even though my general attitude probably gave him the idea that "anything goes, even when anything is out of sequence" it is really more like "anything goes as long as i am not surprised and not taken advantage of."
not being surprised is not necessarily boring, keep in mind.
ever be able to predict exactly what will happen yet still feel the power of orchestrating the events? this is how i feel when sex is at it's best. ideally, i let most anything be done to me and do most anything to the other person, yet must know the parameters intuitively. as a victim type, it's crucial for there to be no overt control outside the bedroom. this may be why i do not like being blindfolded despite liking far more damaging things during sex -- because i need to be able to see from outside myself.
whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.
Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee
Herzy, you're a virgin.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I don't relate to this stuff.
I'm a male, and a strong extravert. So this means I just take all the fucking initiative in all the relationships I've had. Yeah yeah if I had to wait out to "give clues" I'd still be a fucking virgin because, maybe again we're just too horny here, because in 2 weeks you have your girl stolen if you don't take the initiative.
in my experience with isfj, infp, istj (the onyl types ive dated) it goes like this
FDG to girl "HEY WANNA GO OUT"
girl to FDG: (inside her head: omg he wants just to fuck me leave me prego and then fly to another country): NO nononononono
FDG: FINE BYE
after 2 weeks
FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
girl to FDG: (insider her head: ok im getting bored here at home doing nothing, ill just bring some anti rape spray with me): maybe one time if you ask me once more and insist a bit
FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
girl to FDG: okay
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
yeah, gender roles suck ass
I look forward to it.Originally Posted by Herzy
Most definitely. The best experiences are strangely familiar while still being vivid. And I need that sense of familiarity - that I'm playing out something archetypal function that will come to an inevitable climax. Otherwise, it feels alien and empty.Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
Well this is actually pretty much in line with what I was saying. Only it's the Se, action-oriented, aspect of the equation. (As per being a dude in an excessively horny society, I have no clue. I don't do the bar/club dating scene in my city. There you mostly only meet the sort of people that drive me more than slightly homicidal - yuppies, guidos, Lincoln Park trixies (they're not just in Chicago anymore), poseurs, plastic surgeons, you know the like. God I hate them all.)Originally Posted by FDG
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
I'm generally attracted to slightly femminine girls (at least in the relationship roles sense) so it's usually not a problem. There's some unspoken rule of attraction in my opinion, that makes two similar poles repel.Originally Posted by Joy
Baby: I don't know, why then all the Se-creative girls I've dated behaved that way? Shouldn't have they hunt my cock down with a knife?
In any case yes the bar scene is where that problem reaches its apex but it's actually pretty widespread.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I've always had a more stereotypical "male" role in my relationships, even to the extent of wanting a stay at home spouse. Guys have complained that I'm not "romantic", too.Originally Posted by FDG
eheh, i dont think a guy can complain about that in a girlfriend. if you have chosen it, you can't complain! anyway, I think I don't have a very strong male role, but at least clearly defined, yes.Originally Posted by Joy
i don't believe in gender roles anyway. i think each person has a preference, not strictly dependant on his/her sex.
Anyway, why do you people think what I posted is Se? Wouldnt a Se person be less straighforward and more concerned about keeping the upper hand?
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
You are correct, that type of conversation doesn't point to a typical dominants style of attack. However, the way the conversation is conveyed points to a style of summarizing(essentially leaving out the subtlety and wit) that ESTp's use to show how they were able to get the ball moving.Originally Posted by FDG
And unfortunately, I cannot give any personal contributions to this thread.
PoLR
Suggestive Function
Regular Double-shot Espresso Subtype
Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.
Wait... do you mean that every relationship you've ever been in has progressed in exactly the same way? You're sure that you just aren't picking up the sort of things that make each time different?Originally Posted by FDG
I haven't really heard the other side of the equation in my relationships with Se-women. I do know that when my ESTp guy friends talk about relationships, it tends to sound like this:
- "Damn that bitch got a fine ass"
- "Did you see the way she looked at me?"
- "I told that doll off and called her a slut in front of her friends."
- "Man I was so drunk." (<- This has more to do with ESTp relationships that one would guess.)
- "I want to fuck fat bitches. Fat. Black. Bitches."
- "What do I do, man? I swear she's fucking trying to kill me."
Good people.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
same hereOriginally Posted by FDG
lots of dumb helpless infps.
asd
^ Heath speaks truth.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Unnecessary roughness: 2-minute penalty.Originally Posted by heath
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
Originally Posted by Mark Twain
So will victims generally try to test their aggressor and try to act coy as a means to sustain interest? Is this due to some insecurity on their part? They need to be reassured?
massive bump my love.
For your question, I cannot answer, sorry.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Hmm, I'm totally guessing here, but I would think that Te cues would be more about your ability to do stuff, and Fe cues would be more on you as a person.
So like, a Te jibe would be 'you fail' or 'why can't you do that', and a Fe one would be 'you suck' or 'what's wrong with you'.
I don't know...that doesn't seem quite right though. Um...thoughts, someone else?
allez cuisine!
I wrote this about Beta courtship styles yesterday:
I don't know if I'm coy so much as I am deliberately playing with people sometimes. It can be a bit perverse, I guess, but I will go hot-and-cold; I will want to see someone and then I suddenly won't; I'll say something nice and then withdraw again. It's like a dance - moving closer, moving away, light touches followed by pulling away again. If I had to pin it down, I would say that I'm testing their decisiveness. I want someone who isn't easily confused, who is certain in their pursuit, who is decisive. Who is steady and patient in getting what they set out to achieve. And all the coy behaviour, the tests, the game-playing of it all is just to test their mettle. It's a way of preventing me from ending up with someone who doesn't have the qualities I'm looking look, I'd say.In a sense, we're looking at the world as a combat and you want your partner to be the strongest person there alongside you. So it's like you're always testing people - and if they're not right, then you keep them at arms length because you want to shield them from yourself, as well as shield yourself from them because trusting someone who isn't strong enough to handle you is like going into battle badly armed.
()
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
I don't relate at all to this style of romance, even if I am a victim (nothing against you idolatrie, I'm just trying to show that grouping all the victim-aggressor relationships in a single category doesn't work).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yeah, no, I thought I was pretty way off base. And honestly, I'm not sure I even know what style of romance works for me since I can't say I've ever been in an emotionally satisfying relationship with a guy. *shrugs*
How would you describe a style of romance that works for you? Maybe it would be easier for you to contrast Gamma with Beta victim/aggressor rather than just having Beta speculating on it.
allez cuisine!
Well I offer:
- Initiative-taking behavior
- A reasonable capacity for gathering information and producing new ideas
- A decent sense of humor
- A lot of energy to get tasks done
What I need (I don't purposefully look for these qualities but that's what I have noticed):
- Prompt responses to my initiative-taking behavior: I am not slow-and-steady-win-the-race; so I wouldn't stand a "victim" trying to "test" me: I would just drop it because I'd think they didn't like me. In this sense, I need no ambiguity in what the other person is feeling.
- A person that isn't too strong or emotionally hardy: the more somebody is hardy towards me, the more I become hardy towards them. Instead, if somebody is gentle and easy-going, I become more gentle and easy-going.
- Somebody that does for me some things that I always forget about doing; usually it's some paperwork that is absolutely necessary for the bureucratic part of something. I can do many things and work a lot, but I don't necessarily like to revise everything I do multiple times. Somebody that is naturally attuned to taking care of these details would be nice.
Now I am of the opinion that much of what is said about the rational pairs of resolute quadras has a lot to do with their base function. For example, how an ENFj seeks for somebody which is strong: that's not Se-seeking, that's Ti-seeking. In this sense, you will not find any commonality between this part of mate-seeking behavior of a Beta NF and the mate-seeking behavior of, say, an ENTj - the latter will be inclined to look for Fi because at the end of the day their base function is still extraverted thinking.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I think that to some extent, I do this even with friendships. I don't think it's even conscious though. There's this SLE that I've gotten to be friends with after a long drawn out thing such as this. It's been over 2 years now and I finally consider us real friends. I wasn't sure of him at first (he's an E-3 and I felt at first that I may have been just part of his larger plan to know everyone and be generally well-liked) but he's been completely solid and patient, ever ready to respond to me when I indicate that I want a response but never pushy. And now I trust him. Of course with friendship the stakes aren't as high and it can take longer without anyone getting frustrated or annoyed. But looking back, I can see that this was much the way things played out for us.
IEI-Fe 4w3