Types that are normally considered harsh

[FarDraft]

I was wondering which types were normally seen as "harsh". By harsh what I mean is someone who is cruel or severe in their punishments of people who have either failed or done wrong. For example, a harsh person would fire somebody after only one mistake or reprimand someone for not obtaining full marks on a test. They may also vocally censure somebody for having done something they deem either immoral or incorrect. I'm imagining a strict person with high standards who is unafraid to vocalize them in aggressive ways.

While I know that all types can be harsh in some ways at some times, if we're using this definition, then I think that LSIs may be the harshest on average. This is mainly because they don't value Fi, have weak Fe and have Se creative, meaning that they impose their rigid Ti standards upon others often in a forceful manner. I could see ESI being like this as well, especially in a moral sense (somebody like Christopher Hitchens comes to mind).

Here's my reasoning for not considering other types:

• xLE: while they have Fi PoLR, they have Fe HA, so they're unlikely to deliberately make somebody upset for fear of not being liked.
• xLI: Fe PoLR means that they may not care about expressing emotions or care about the emotions of others but Fi HA means that they want to like things so they may not be critical in such a harsh way. Although this can be debated since some Te-ILI descriptions portray a cuttingly mean individual. I haven't seen this of SLIs, though. Also, Se ignoring could minimize direct challenging, though the same could be said of ILIs who have very weak Se even with Te sub.
• xII: Se PoLR means that they wouldn't criticize others so directly. They may have rigid standards but be less willing to impose them upon others. Although, in Reinin's description of LII he implies that they may be exceedingly harsh: ' “The world should live in harmony, people deserve to be happy", says a Robespierre, "so let's take a guillotine and chop off heads of all bad people who hamper our creation so that only good ones remain and everyone will be happy. Let's build a society free of the bad people, oppression, violence, injustice … But this purpose is achieved by means of a guillotine”. This is how this type expresses his creativity.' Though I haven't seen this to be true in real life.
• LxE: Fi DS means they may be too lenient with others. However, LIEs, because of their Se HA, may try to manifest themselves as more aggressive than they are. Similarly, Te sub LSEs use more of their Se demonstrative.
• ExE: these types are typically seen as manipulative when unhealthy rather than harsh, though the latter can develop if the former becomes too prominent. Alpha SFs dislike conflict, though, so this would be more true for EIE than ESE.
• xEI: same comment about alpha SFs as above. I don't have a good reason for why IEIs wouldn't be harsh. They just don't seem like that kind of person.
• xEE: strong and valued Fi means they understand and value psychological distances between themselves and others. It's unlikely they'd overstep those bounds for the purposes of scorning someone else.

Thoughts?

[The Reality Denialist]

Isn't Fe HA avoiding of making group atmosphere too heavy to handle?

[Aylen]

My ILI step dad was harsher than my ILI ex. Both could use harsh words but my step dad was also an E1, worked for the defense dept and it was his job to fire incompetent people. Probably harsh to the person getting fired but not to those who held him accountable for those under him. My ex was E5 so more in his head. Different subtypes too. My SLI extended family member is harsher than my LSE extended family member was. My LSI mom is also an E1. She is blunt which may seem harsh to some but she can also be shifted if you direct positive emotion toward her. I think she just has a tough no nonsense attitude which can seem harsh. My ESI aunt was similar in that attitude. Fe is not going to sway an Fe polr into being less harsh with others.

Let's see what socionics says:

as a creative (2nd) function (ILI and SLI)

It is manifested as a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere. A view of the external environment being efficient, reasonable, and making sense is essential to their well-being and sense of inner peace, but they do not feel a pressing need for being proactive or productive themselves in that area.

Logical subtype Te-ISTp (Te-SLI)

Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov

Appearance
The logical subtype is impatient and active, loves frequent changes and new impressions. Industrious, hardworking, and very caring. His behavior is unpredictable and characterized by unexpected transitions from aloof contemplation to expedient activity. Keeps certain reserve and distance from other people, and at times can be overly direct, harsh, and inconsiderate in conversation. Very independent and proud, does as he wishes. In conversation he is prickly and ironic, but becomes friendly and shows consideration if he has sympathy and respect for his conversation partner. Noticing that he has offended someone, regrets it and softens his communication, tries to turn everything into a joke, or may even apologize and try to calm the person down. Behind his external seeming inaccessibility he is quite impressionable and vulnerable. Dislikes lack of comfort in all of its manifestations; thus strives to fix, adjust, and adapt everything for greatest convenience. Responsible, reliable, and punctual. Demanding towards himself and others. Holds himself with cold dignity, but at times he can be emotional. His gestures are impulsive, confident, resolute. Gait is quick and measured.

[LSI] often seems harsh, sometimes even cruel. But this is often due to the fact that it badly sees the experiences of other people and their feelings. [LSI] cannot step back from/compromise its educational policy, because they are motivated by a genuine concern for others. Moreover the nearer the distance in their interrelations, the stricter measure for action it will use.

Gamma

Alphas tend to regard Gamma types warily, as stand-offish and emotionally cold or even hostile, especially in work situations, as well as inclined to play favorites with those they know better, or are attracted to (for whatever reason, be it sexually or for power and gain.) Alphas tend to see Gamma types as too harsh in their words and unimaginative, lacking future perspective, and even disingenuous, as well as having a mean streak of unforgivingness and vindictiveness.

Development of protective measures on quadral complex of "tied hands."

Harsh competition of business and possibilistic initiatives, limitations of one's own possibilities and envy for other people's freedom of action (also a consequence of quadral complex of "tied hand") makes all representatives of Gamma Quadra develop a system of protective measures ("a system traps"), which allows them to curb and place limitations on the creative and business activities of their competitors and opposition.
All of the dominant aspect of Gamma Quadra work for the development of protective measures on complex of "tied hands":
- The aspect of "break-through" evolutionary volitional sensing (+Se) – the "program" aspect of the extrovert-ideologist of the Gamma Quadra – SEE, Caesar – who overwhelms with his own purposefulness, and is capable of moving mountains and crushing any obstacles in his path;
- The aspect of "inventive" involutionary logic of actions (-Te) – the "program" aspect of the extrovert-implementer of Gamma Quadra – LIE, Jack – that operates on a double standard: on the one hand - despotic and cruel - ruthlessly suppressing and limiting activities of his partners, curbing their rights and freedoms, but on the other hand - freedom-loving and emancipated - reserving the right to all-permissiveness, turning on green light for himself, not recognizing any control over himself, not seeing any borders, chains or boundaries;
- The evolutionary aspect of intuition of time (+Ni) – the "program" aspect of the extrovert-coordinator of Gamma Quadra – ILI, Balzac – prudent and pragmatic, giving prognosis of a situation with high accuracy, capable of technically modeling a "system of traps" that lead a potential rival into a dead end, capable of calculating the development of a situation many moves ahead;
- The involutionary aspect of ethics of relations (-Fi) – the "program" aspect of the extrovert-corrector of Gamma Quadra – ESI, Dreiser – rigid, categorical ("questim", separating), capable of separating "friends" from "enemies", decisively and irrevocably cutting off and separating that which is "needed" from that which is "unnecessary", the "good" from the "bad", capable of cutting through the most complex "knots and chains", freeing up for himself and own priorities a convenient field of operations, capable of protecting this field from adversarial encroachments and opposing forces, entangling any one of his competitors or contacts with a plethora of moral and ethical constraints.

In the midst of competitive struggles, under the conditions of high pragmatic activity, in Gamma Quadra all entangle each other with some kind of restrictions:
- ESI, Dreiser binds the activity of his competitors by moral and ethical limitations (-Fi);
- SEE, Caesar holds them back by encouraging ethical manipulation (-Fi) and suppresses by willful bans and restrictions (+Se)
- ILI, Balzac suppresses another's initiative by gloomy business forecasts and frightening warnings (-Ni);
- LIE, Jack suppresses unwanted activity of his partner by depletion of material resources, strict restrictions of his personal, possibilistic, and business initiatives (-Te), and by harsh willful confrontations, limiting the person in their actions and potential and bringing him to a standstill.

The harshest seeming people are probably Fe and Ne polr. Unless you are Alpha then Gammas are.

Cruel people are not healthy people so you can't just pin cruelty on one type, in this case "LSI".

The most severe and unforgiving style of punishment I ever received was from my ESI aunt. Do I think all ESI are that way, of course not.

[Aramas]

Any type can be a douchebag. Certain types are more well-known for it, though. Te doms and Beta STs probably take the cake, with EIE as an add-on.

[sbbds]

Wow I have nothing to add. I literally agree with everything said so far, except that not sure what OP said about LSIs as the single type being the most harsh is the case, as Ni HA can have a soft feeling to it many times (at least from my Se leading perspective).

I can also say that when I am *not* in a good mood and I don't like you in the slightest, then I'm probably the harshest type. Be glad I mostly slightly like people at the least.

Second most harsh type is SEI. They will put cyanide in those cupcakes, do not underestimate them.

[para]

SEI's can have a particular facade that makes you doubt the certainty of anything.

[FarDraft]

Wow I have nothing to add. I literally agree with everything said so far, except that not sure what OP said about LSIs as the single type being the most harsh is the case, as Ni HA can have a soft feeling to it many times (at least from my Se leading perspective).

I can also say that when I am *not* in a good mood and I don't like you in the slightest, then I'm probably the harshest type. Be glad I mostly slightly like people at the least.

Second most harsh type is SEI. They will put cyanide in those cupcakes, do not underestimate them.

Never knew that Ni HA had a softness attached to it. Perhaps I haven't met enough LSIs to notice. I did have one LSI friend in high school, and while he was certainly stern, he seemed somewhat melancholic because no one else really liked him. He also lived alone with his mother, so he didn't have a paternal influence, which may have lead to bottled up aggression. Eventually, he loosened up and became more of a joker. He seemed much happier in the latter half of 12th grade. I don't know if this has anything to do with Ni HA but I'm just describing my experience.

[FarDraft]

My ILI step dad was harsher than my ILI ex. Both could use harsh words but my step dad was also an E1, worked for the defense dept and it was his job to fire incompetent people. Probably harsh to the person getting fired but not to those who held him accountable for those under him. My ex was E5 so more in his head. Different subtypes too. My SLI extended family member is harsher than my LSE extended family member was. My LSI mom is also an E1. She is blunt which may seem harsh to some but she can also be shifted if you direct positive emotion toward her. I think she just has a tough no nonsense attitude which can seem harsh. My ESI aunt was similar in that attitude. Fe is not going to sway an Fe polr into being less harsh with others.

Let's see what socionics says:











The harshest seeming people are probably Fe and Ne polr. Unless you are Alpha then Gammas are.

Cruel people are not healthy people so you can't just pin cruelty on one type, in this case "LSI".

The most severe and unforgiving style of punishment I ever received was from my ESI aunt. Do I think all ESI are that way, of course not.

Perhaps cruel was too inhuman a word. Thanks for the quotes. I was certainly underestimating gamma, probably because of what I've heard about beta. The thing is that many of the "harsh Fi" things written about gamma I don't notice other people talking about on this forum. So I began to doubt the validity of what was written.

[sbbds]

Never knew that Ni HA had a softness attached to it. Perhaps I haven't met enough LSIs to notice.

xSI are called pseudo-victims. Likewise, Se HA are called pseudo-aggressors.

[Memento Mori]

xSI are called pseudo-victims. Likewise, Se HA are called pseudo-aggressors.

lmao this makes sense of like, my entire life and close friendships

Can't speak for ESI/LIE dyad, but LSI/EIE is adorable.

EIE sets the tone, LSI chases, then EIE bites, goes on the advance, and on and on the wonderful tension goes. Alot of subliminal (fun) games too. Locked in Bantanamo Bay, all day, fam.

[Adam Strange]

The LSI that I was seeing told me that I was the aggressor.

But really, she knew what she wanted and would go for it. In a nice way.

[sbbds]

The LSI that I was seeing told me that I was the aggressor.

But really, she knew what she wanted and would go for it. In a nice way.

One time I jokingly asked my LIE boss why he was being so aggressive when he firmly offered me a chair one time he was feeling excited. He seemed to get a kick out of that.

[Desert Financial]

xSI are called pseudo-victims. Likewise, Se HA are called pseudo-aggressors.

I don't recall any Socionics literature using this nomenclature, but it's true enough.

[FarDraft]

xSI are called pseudo-victims. Likewise, Se HA are called pseudo-aggressors.

I thought it was the gamma NTs that were considered pseudo-aggressors. However, akin to Karatos, I too haven't seen this nomenclature being used in socionics literature.

[sbbds]

I thought it was the gamma NTs that were considered pseudo-aggressors. However, akin to Karatos, I too haven't seen this nomenclature being used in socionics literature.

Double-checked this and you're right. I must have just thought that through conversations with people on the forums here. But it is true that xSIs (and actually all Se egos in general at times) can seem pseudo victim-like and have been described as such in the literature too.

For example here in the LSI female description by Beskova:

She knows how to be charming, and also how to seem tender, brittle, and defenseless, if she decides that this is something necessary for the time.

At first meeting, you are guaranteed to see a charming smile and coquettish gaze.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...STj-by-Beskova

[Memento Mori]

She knows how to be charming, and also how to seem tender, brittle, and defenseless, if she decides that this is something necessary for the time.

At first meeting, you are guaranteed to see a charming smile and coquettish gaze.

Me gusta.

For what it's worth, I still think You have a point. It's consistent with LSI literature. I know many LSIs including males have told me it's alot easier if they are approached first, and Se HA and general EIEness can make sense of appearing like an aggressor despite not being one technically

[Desert Financial]

Double-checked this and you're right. I must have just thought that through conversations with people on the forums here. But it is true that xSIs (and actually all Se egos in general at times) can seem pseudo victim-like and have been described as such in the literature too.

For example here in the LSI female description by Beskova:



http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...STj-by-Beskova

Two parts to the XSI pseudo-victim quality: being an introvert and Ni HA. Introversion means you prefer an extravert initiate an interaction. Ni HA means you see a bit further down the line than SXE.

I dated an SLE for about 9 months and we were similar enough that she thought we were the same MBTI type. Eventually, differences started to show when she was more energized and I was more drained. Several months in, something clicked and I could see 1 or two steps further than she could, so I could kind of engineer brief interactions before they happened. I guess I got a taste of what it's like to be a victim, since Ni egos "forecast." That said, victims hold more power in the victim-aggressor dynamic because, consciously or unconsciously, they set the stage for shit to happen before it happens, which influences/determines the behavior of the aggressor.

[Allegra]

An SLE friend once told me: Always be a little more lenient to others than to yourself. That little bit of extra leniency will set you free.

[Tonatiuh]

I used to sound a lot harsher before. Weird how things goes, now one could almost describe me as warm, for being me that is.

[ruined]

i've only been harsh when i totally and rightfully wanted to be. situations in my greater youth where i had to fight back when threatened.

[Sol]

in average - T-S
Fe valued may lesser care about feelings of others

from IR point - superego will annoy you the most. by being harsh or other ways

there are also nontypes factors

[Exodus]

Harshness is very generally an Se (valuing) trait.

In the specific way that you've defined it here, maybe Se valuing logic types would be the most harsh, though honestly I'd have trouble picking just one. ESIs can be very exacting when it comes to conduct but also have more of a soft side.

But yeah, Se valuing in general.

[Alomoes]

Typically types with low Fi are also determined as harsh, but I don't see myself as being harsh. Having Fe polr, you'd expect it, but learned behavior trumps psychological tendencies, I guess. For example, I know that yelling at someone is counterproductive to getting them to like me, so I don't. Usually. I do have a habit of calling people idiots when they are being idiots though, because I'm not going to go through the mental gymnastics of trying to point out that someone is being an idiot in a kind and positive way. Too much effort. And yes, that includes towards myself [so it's fair]. Recently did this in response to a question on quora. I don't remember the question, the one where the guy asks how to die and revive yourself, which is a very creative stunt that I highly don't recommend. I answered poison. For obvious reasons, I can't not think of this as that question, but it's sadly not the one. It had to do with phrasing implying something that was stupid.

Ah, here it is. "Everyone thinks I'm a rude little idiot because I'm 15 and not 16. How should I deal with it?" HRRM. Now, this is incredibly false because first, I don't attribute that he's a rude little idiot to age. I would attribute that he's rude because he used the term idiot in the first place, and that he's an idiot because he uses sweeping generalization. The logical thing to do would be to stop doing both. Finally, I suggested he take up an intellectual hobby to improve his image. I could have phrased it better, but I'm not fixing it.

[FDG]

Beta ST in general seem the harshest to me.

[Beautiful sky]

Depends on who you ask. It can be any adverse type. I can be harsh to an ILE. An LSE can be harsh to IEE and IEI, etc