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Thread: INFj subtypes: EII-Fi vs. EII-Ne

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    Default INFj subtypes: EII-Fi vs. EII-Ne

    What are some observable differences between the two types? How is the EII-Ne different from IEE? Also, do these map straightforwardly onto the DCNH system as well (such that EII-Ne would be C type, for instance), or is that not always the case? What are the differences between different EII DCNH subtypes?

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    These are not types. The only "subtypes" theory which has sense is the difference of functional balances in the concrete people. And to some degree the strenght and skills of the concrete functions in them.

    As "EII-Fi" I'll assume a higher expressed or more accentuated type here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    How is the EII-Ne different from IEE?
    They have more expressed the opposite traits than more accentuated EII. Including the traits related to close types as mirror, so may partly remind them and behave closer to them.

    To distinguish the inner type's nuances is significantly harder than between types. It also rises the chance to mix nontype related with types, as this is lesser seen. I'll try.

    EII-Fi


    EII-Ne


    EII-Fi are a kind of more "boring", while EII-Ne are more "playful".
    The lesser expressed type according to Jung is healthier state and stronger psyche.

    > Also, do these map straightforwardly onto the DCNH system

    DCNH is not Socionics. It's Gulenko's baseless fantasy and technically is another typology. Forget it. Ennegram seems as better addition to Jung, being better developed.

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    I think IEX types have similar approach and same applies to EIX. Mirror is just looks at things differently but they share similar interests.

    So IEE talks about things in very loose manner as they want to generate an overall view of things which is similar with IEI when they paint wishful future.

    EIX types tend to have heavier and more rigorous approach on things and they might be even bit gloomier people.
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    I think those are 2 different subtype systems created by different socionists. I haven't seen any correlation in my experience, but I think Gulenko did some kind of correlation of DCNH with IEs. I choose subtypes in DCNH because of the descriptions basically, not because of the IEs.
    As for EII and IEE, I was reading Strat who talk about the case of an SLI/EII couple who over the years, changed subtypes turning their relation more like a pseudo duality, she was apparently EII-Ne and he SLI-Te, though, relationship didn't improved. So my guess is, subtype change over the years as natural way to adapt to environment needs, to fit superficially or cover up certain roles but without changing the base program. It's logical, since, if you have Fi Ne but you interact with someone who requires more Ne than Fi, you are going to start using more Ne to try to compensate partners needs. Same for any other type. Also from reading other type descriptions, supposedly duals have a time for adaptation when they move over their base (in case they have moved to creative), which is, for example EII becoming more into Fi and LSE more Te. That's real ime.

    I think my EII friend from childhood is an EII-Ne probably due her interaction with his father who's SLI and myself. What differences I can grasp from she and EII-Fi? Well, EII-Fi can look more serious and act more introverted and be depressed ime. This friend is not an IEE. She's an EII-Ne who seems more unaffected due sadness or deep feelings than regular Fi, is more cheeky, hussy and sassy, more spontaneous, have more friends, so externally she's more Ne, though, she doesnt use Ne as an IEE, her base program stills totally Fi Ne (that's a source of frustration and lack of interest for my side over the years).
    Last edited by Mila; 12-18-2018 at 08:21 PM.

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    @Sol, please find an EII-Ne who is not whispering, I can't analyze VI only I need SI. I am curious what do you associate with EII strong Ne type? you have lots of videos and its your dual, you have to have at least one video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    please find an EII-Ne who is not whispering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    I agree with you Sol that she is EII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    @Sol, please find an EII-Ne who is not whispering, I can't analyze VI only I need SI. I am curious what do you associate with EII strong Ne type? you have lots of videos and its your dual, you have to have at least one video.
    What is SI? Sound?

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    There was something that said the EII-Fi doesn't understand jokes or something. I never thought you could be EII and not get jokes. Ne is all about jokes.

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    AMA for feeling if we relate if you identify as creative subtype, as now I'm identifying with it.

    What you do, how, life goal, relationships.

    If you don't want to disclose we can go in private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    What is SI? Sound?
    Secondary input?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    What is SI? Sound?
    I meant sound identification, by the way I made that up, noone uses that term as far as I know

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    EII-Fi is much more likely than EII-Ne to feel overloaded with tasks and look for helpers (usually not finding them, and feeling like you have to play superhero). They often feel like they are there in the midst of circumstances to bring "healing" of some esoteric sort.

    The EII-Ne is much more of a Dandy, quietly and unobtrusively, glamorously socializing while others seem to readily offer assistance even in basic things and nothing seems too pressing. They are careful not to use ill words of others and stay positive so that others will keep high opinions of them as positive people.

    At least, this is what my experiences have shown me.
    ~* astralsilky



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    (This is my observation, I may be mistaken)
    EII Fi

    (in comparison to EII Ne)

    Makes a childlike, naive impression... They're more stable and have more consistent moods. Fluffy and warm. Well contained in their little bubble, their presence is smaller, more aware of their own feelings. More forgiving, in my experience, less confrontational. Sweeter, nicer, kinder.



    Not sure if you're into anime, but the girl with the pink hair is a very good EII Fi. Very flower girl-ish, like a fairy, so gentle and kind. The other one is IEI so it's a good quasi id relationship, Fe vs Fi, I believe. The more "stereotypical" EII, what you may think of when you think of the type.

    EII Ne

    (in comparison to EII Fi)

    One easy thing to notice is the more turbulent emotions. Has a broader scale, a bigger presence. They have more of an edge and can appear like IEIs. They are less likely to convey deep emotions, can appear less deep. (not shallow, just less deep than the Fi type). Likely to be less sociable from what I know, I think it has to do with the emphasis of the creative function making the individual more turbulent.



    I really can't talk about EII and not bring up this character. Shinji is EII Ne. This character is a near perfect representation of EII, great character.

    I have heard people say that creative subtype resembles mirror type, I don't think that's true. EII Ne doesn't really resemble IEE, imo they more closely resemble IEI. IEE is too different, and the defining trait of both quasi ids is 4D Fi/Ni.

    Hope this was of some use. ^^

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    A good way of looking at it would be emotional turbulence. Creative subtype of rational feelers are more emotional, more turbulent, less outwardly stable. Ofc, the person may be kind, empathetic, etc. There's also less 'visible' feeling, if that makes sense. Creative subtype is also more 'risky' and more 'in your face' more dramatic, confrontational, etc.
    @VenusRose if you're trying to determine your subtype, you come across as the creative subtype, imo.

    DCNH doesn't factor into this. I believe DCNH is more related to how a person experiences their unconscious functions. I will need to confirm that.

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    I am under stress @Pano Lou I wouldn’t use my presence on here to determine anything. I come across more as Fi subtype from what you have posted, though I can’t really relate to either, maybe I have no subtype
    I can’t relate to others’ explanation of Ne subtype either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    I can’t relate to others’ explanation of Ne subtype either.
    By contrast, the Beta NFs tend to generally be highly emotional, caring and emotionally caretaking types as are the Alpha SFs toward their loved ones ...
    ~* astralsilky



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    ....
    I am not Beta NF, @vesstheastralsilky
    And yeah, I don’t relate to that description either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    I am under stress @Pano Lou I wouldn’t use my presence on here to determine anything. I come across more as Fi subtype from what you have posted, though I can’t really relate to either, maybe I have no subtype
    I can’t relate to others’ explanation of Ne subtype either.
    That is fine, I don't expect to know you well enough to type you 100%. I just mentioned my impression. Everything I've written is in comparison to each other. When I say creative subtype is more risky, I mean it as in, risky compared to the dominant subtype and not risky how an Se base type might be. I can't really explain it in better terms than emotional turbulence. Ultimately, it depends on what you relate more to.

    I'll see if I can come up with non anime examples. If I run into anything, I'll post it here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pano Lou View Post
    That is fine, I don't expect to know you well enough to type you 100%. I just mentioned my impression. Everything I've written is in comparison to each other. When I say creative subtype is more risky, I mean it as in, risky compared to the dominant subtype and not risky how an Se base type might be. I can't really explain it in better terms than emotional turbulence. Ultimately, it depends on what you relate more to.

    I'll see if I can come up with non anime examples. If I run into anything, I'll post it here
    I am this:

    Makes a childlike, naive impression... They're more stable and have more consistent moods. Fluffy and warm. Well contained in their little bubble, their presence is smaller, more aware of their own feelings. More forgiving, in my experience, less confrontational. Sweeter, nicer, kinder.
    I can't really imagine an EII who is not forgiving
    Abuse has altered my behavior on here
    I have even given the impression of being more naive than other EIIs, among other things, to this one friend. I did not want that to be apparent on here due to my experience with abuse in such communities. I was afraid if that was apparent I would be abused again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pano Lou View Post
    Not sure if you're into anime, but the girl with the pink hair is a very good EII Fi. Very flower girl-ish, like a fairy, so gentle and kind. The other one is IEI so it's a good quasi id relationship, Fe vs Fi, I believe. The more "stereotypical" EII, what you may think of when you think of the type.
    If you keep citing Madoka and Persona characters I may have a new favorite poster on this site.
    "I would rather be ashes than dust"

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    I think at some point, all the NFs start resembling one another. This is Madoka's song BTW. I used to dislike Fi because of my own biases, but I overcame them. I really love EIIs, even though we clash over a lot of things. I don't understand how Fi is able to die for its principles, but I appreciate it, I understand the depth and intensity of it, on that level, I can relate. This is Madoka's song:

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=GZ77rATP3x8

    I have reached a point where I can tell whether a type is Fe or Fi ego based on what areas they focus on when they talk about things. I know I value Fe for that reason, and Rose doesn't strike me as an Fe type at all. I don't know why people would make that connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    If you keep citing Madoka and Persona characters I may have a new favorite poster on this site.
    I'm going to make a series of called, "Type portraits from anime" and make detailed Socionics portraits of types Lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pano Lou View Post
    I'm going to make a series of called, "Type portraits from anime" and make detailed Socionics portraits of types Lmao
    Do it lmao this is obviously the telos of internet typology.
    "I would rather be ashes than dust"

    "Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    I am this:



    I can't really imagine an EII who is not forgiving
    Abuse has altered my behavior on here
    I have even given the impression of being more naive than other EIIs, among other things, to this one friend. I did not want that to be apparent on here due to my experience with abuse in such communities. I was afraid if that was apparent I would be abused again.
    I think you are a lot stronger than you appear to be, and I appreciate that. Abuse sucks, I know, I am a survivor myself. *hugs*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pano Lou View Post

    I have reached a point where I can tell whether a type is Fe or Fi ego based on what areas they focus on when they talk about things. I know I value Fe for that reason, and Rose doesn't strike me as an Fe type at all. I don't know why people would make that connection.
    They do have a different focus, that's true. Despite having both those elements strong.
    My mother may be SEI, and she clearly values but her Fi is strong also, it's just more indirect, implied, in the background.
    Some SFs I have observed may have the 'naivete' stereotypically associated with Delta NFs.
    But maybe that's not type related...im not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    They do have a different focus, that's true. Despite having both those elements strong.
    My mother may be SEI, and she clearly values but her Fi is strong also, it's just more indirect, implied, in the background.
    Some SFs I have observed may have the 'naivete' stereotypically associated with Delta NFs.
    But maybe that's not type related...im not sure.

    At some point, all NFs look similar. They have the NF temperament, if that makes sense. Same goes for SFs. So superficial analysis of types isn't good. Moreover, irrational types have the ability to transmute Fe to Fi (for IxEs) and Fi to Fe (for xEIs) I think this is for the benefit of their duals. I actually think that's the main function of the demonstrative... Because it's your duals PoLR, you learn to transmute it, and feed it to your duals HA. Demonstrative Ni, for you would mean, if I'm right, you have the ability to transmute Ni information to Ne and feed it to the LSE... Do you think that is true?

    I hate one sentence typings and intuitive analysis. It's garbage. Like Sol saying that violence and dark themes are not Si... But I hate those kinds of themes. I only ever use violence in my writing for catharsis, I can't stand gore or gross out. A lot of my collages too, people look at them and say "that's good Si." It took me a long time to remove a lot of misinformation from my mind.

    For example, look at my aesthetic:



    Yes, Si is comfort seeking, but it doesn't mean it's not capable of destroying comfort. Neither does it imply that Se hates comfort and are all thrill seekers. That's an extremely shallow way to type, I believe. A lot of things are misconstrued... xIE can't relax ≠ they're always running around like headless chickens. If someone wants to wrap me up in a blanket on a cold night and feed me hot cocoa, I'm glad to receive. Then terms like victim/agressor and childlike/caregiver are also misunderstood... And, people are perfectly capable of transmuting aesthetics, from Se to Si and vice versa.

    TL; DR one sentence typings are bad and I like to rant lol
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    What are some observable differences between the two types? How is the EII-Ne different from IEE? Also, do these map straightforwardly onto the DCNH system as well (such that EII-Ne would be C type, for instance), or is that not always the case? What are the differences between different EII DCNH subtypes?
    Two-subtype model is variously cast as dominant / second function, inert / contact, accepting / producing, with the difference between terminologies coming down to preference. These subtypes are thought to reflect something innate and unchanging, not unlike the basic type. It is not clear what the real differences are between the two subtypes, but they are useful for diagnosis of types because otherwise it wouldn't be clear how such outwardly different people come to be categorized under one label.

    DCNH is an entirely separate theory, with the subtypes being subject to change over the course of a person's life. Such changes are infrequent, so DCNH tends to remain stable over long periods of time. EII-contact can present in any DCNH type, as can EII-inert (no correlation).

    EII-contact has a tendency to want to tell stories, relate various phenomena, and explain things about the broader world to others. Often has a stocky build, may gesticulate in conversation. EII-inert is less interested in sharing, more mindful of responsibilities. Will present everything in a way that accommodates his interlocutor to the greatest extent possible. More smooth and elegant movements.

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    EII-contact mean EII-Ne in two subtype model ?

    edit : read about inert/contact on wikisocion, the response seem yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I meant sound identification, by the way I made that up, noone uses that term as far as I know
    Lol I figured, I was like there's no way they have VI AND SI lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    EII-Fi is much more likely than EII-Ne to feel overloaded with tasks and look for helpers (usually not finding them, and feeling like you have to play superhero). They often feel like they are there in the midst of circumstances to bring "healing" of some esoteric sort.

    The EII-Ne is much more of a Dandy, quietly and unobtrusively, glamorously socializing while others seem to readily offer assistance even in basic things and nothing seems too pressing. They are careful not to use ill words of others and stay positive so that others will keep high opinions of them as positive people.

    At least, this is what my experiences have shown me.

    Based off that I'm EII-Ne.

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    I am EII-Ne (f) and my papa, before he passed, was EII-Fi. Though I try to keep myself composed I have always been very emotional in a way that often spills over abruptly, while my papa was much more reticent and allowed his emotions to stew within him. I have trouble keeping things to myself - when something bothers me I need to find someone to talk to. I never shut up once I find someone I can confide in. My papa was probably the most private person I have ever known and kept a lot of things even from his wife of 50 years. He was a lot better at dedicating himself to tasks and did not shy away from difficult labor. I am very flighty when it comes to work and projects and have a very difficult time committing to assignments. As for similarities, we were both very sensitive and understood each other implicitly. Both had aptitude in the arts, both absolutely could not stand it when our health was poor.

    Miss him all the time. He was the best dad I could have asked for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    I am EII-Ne (f) and my papa, before he passed, was EII-Fi
    [...]
    I have trouble keeping things to myself - when something bothers me I need to find someone to talk to.
    The need in communications is more common for extraverts. Fi types value more personal connections than just "someone".

    > I never shut up once I find someone I can confide in.

    eh... introverts lesser talk, also

    I recommend to make a typing theme with a videointerview to get mb other opinions about your type.
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1096450

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    There is a difference between being a generally social person and needing an emotional discharge. Key words, someone I can confide in. I am very discriminate about who I interact with at a close psychological distance, even concerning my immediate family. I am by no means social, but I am very open once I find a person or people with whom there is mutual understanding.

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    It's difficult to differentiate the two in work environments because their net output is comparable; superficially, Fi-subtypes do tend to appear more on task. Ne-subtypes seem to take longer to decide or to act; even though they seem more aware, their rationale can be flawed due to lack of time spent on planning their actions. Fi-subtypes seem to be more detached and less informed on the subjects of their plans even though their rationale about what they actually do know is usually quite solid. Both tend to often doubt themselves or their direction although they may not let it show, and seem to be very aware of potential consequences especially upon themselves, which can often cause pregnant pauses or severe reservations - those sage looks that are typical of EII.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Yulin's Avatar
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    The Ne subtype is usually slightly more inclined towards analyzing underlying phenomenas and seemingly possess more bubbliness than their Fi counterparts, who come accross as more subdued and a bit colder. My best friend is a SLI, and we have a common friend who happen to be an EII-Fi. The SLI considers that we're extremely similar, except for the fact that I (EII-Ne) am slightly more impetuous according to him. As for the differenciation between an EII-Ne and a IEE, I would say that the Se PolR is rather easy to notice in comparison. Anyway, my behavior can vary depending on the social context, so it would be best to observe the individual in the long run. Online descriptions regarding both subtypes are actually well-done and relatable, in case you haven't read them.

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    Haikus necrosebud's Avatar
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    I personally don’t have “bubbliness” but certainly low conscientiousness and the whole focus on abstraction thing of Ne “subtype.” Idk, I see people, if you’ve known them long enough, consistently switch between base and creative subtype traits/cognition/behavior etc. Either one of the two subtype descriptions is a little too skewed/on the extreme end for me.

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    Haikus necrosebud's Avatar
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    relevant info:


    The most characteristic difference is the difference in the work of the EGO block, which, as we remember, consists of basic and creative functions. Of course, in both cases, the main factor is the issue of attitude, and you need to want to work on creative CHI. The whole snag is just that the EII of the intuitive subtype wants this more often than its identity of the ethical subtype, which, in turn, clings more strongly to the invariability of its views. We can say that the ethical Dostoevsky is somewhat more conservative and confident in his judgments, while the intuitive is somewhat more inclined to work on them and, perhaps, even to revise them. This is the main essence of the "activity" and "passivity" of vertical subtypes in the case of EII.




    The situation is similar with the SUPERID block, which includes the suggested and activation functions. Although for any Adequate, the organization of the surrounding space is the primary condition for a happy existence, the representative of the basic subtype expects a much more pronounced functional component, and prefers greater simplicity in matters of aesthetics and physical comfort. The intuitive subtype, on the other hand, tends to be more functional laconic, with a slightly greater emphasis on sensory diversity. This moment, in addition, quite bizarrely correlates with Reinin's sign of "declarativeness" in the Dostoevskys, which is especially noticeable in writing: the ethical EII tries to convey its thought in the most detailed way and can roll out "kilometer" treatises, so as not to forget anything important and eliminate all possible misunderstandings and discrepancies; the intuitive EII is more inclined to express his thoughts succinctly, fully, but as briefly as possible, so that the essence, the main message of the monologue is not lost. The ethical subtype is also somewhat more bureaucratic than the intuitive subtype, although it also has such a tendency.




    The functions of the SUPEREGO block, role-playing and painful, also have some distinctive features. With role-playing, everything is quite simple: a representative of the ethical subtype in the use of belological abstractions and the language of systems is more daring, confident and in working on the aspect is able to take a blow for a little longer and not go into other, stronger aspects. But the point here is not only and not so much in the role itself: BL is often used by the Dostoevskys as a wrapper around their ethical judgments, since it is such information, in their opinion, that is appreciated by others (of course, this is a delusion). If EII begins to doubt his judgments, he begins to use his creative function. And since in this sense the intuitive subtype is more malleable than the ethical subtype, the following picture is obtained: while the ethical EII often gets tired of using the role-playing and switches to the basic one in its purest form, the intuitive one may begin to doubt the original ethical premise and switches to the creative one (not because the role-playing one is no longer enough, but because the original reason requires revision). With the pain function, everything is somewhat more interesting, the severity of the pain function in the creative subtype does not indicate its lower vulnerability in comparison with the basic pain subtype. Dostoevskys of the intuitive subtype often record the manifestations of emergency situations not only in relation to themselves, but also in the surrounding world in general. On the one hand, this state of affairs noticeably complicates their life (after all, there is always a place for emergency situations in the world around us), but, on the other hand, it allows us to see our own manifestations of the seizure of space and handle them more accurately. and at the same time do not provoke others to respond. EII of the basic subtype in this sense can accidentally try to take over control of the situation or put pressure on someone, which ultimately either will not be successful or will lead to excessive overstrain of a weak function. In addition, Dostas sometimes, in the flow of information directed at them, take for the capture that which is not. In this case, the reaction of the EII of the ethical subtype will be somewhat more violent and vivid.




    The functions of the ID block also have their own peculiarities. It would be wrong to say that the restrictive CHE of various subtypes expects a different amount of information, since it is designed to regulate the role function of the dual, the quantitative manifestation of which depends not so much on its subtype as on the so-called socionic maturity. We only note that the basic EII subtype is characterized by stricter observation and criticism of the surrounding emotional background, the accumulation of deeper reserves and, accordingly, a brighter emotional reaction in a critical situation, while Dostoevsky of the creative subtype in this matter is less patient and more likely to "bomb ", even in the case when the situation, in fact, could be dealt with in other ways. Note also, that the need to set the mood drains the Dostoevskys of both subtypes, after which they both need peace. As for the background, in the creative subtype it is as much more active as it is more unconscious: the intuitive Dostoevsky will more strive to do everything faster and in one fell swoop, because then he may not even get down to it at all. This is, on the one hand, a lack of understanding and (this is important!) Striving to understand timeliness, and on the other, sharpening under the dual of the same subtype, which, due to its painfulness, does not accept information on BI in any form at all. The basic subtype in this regard feels the moment a little better, but prefers not to listen to these sensations, which is also a sharpening under the dual, which, without realizing it, can dictate its own rules in this matter.


    pretty clearly fits me as EII-Ne. Translation seems a bit rough.

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    Where did you get this from @asd

    So if I understand correctly, the time function is less emphasized but better understood in the intuitive subtype?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karbonkel View Post
    Where did you get this from @asd

    So if I understand correctly, the time function is less emphasized but better understood in the intuitive subtype?
    Um I think it’s saying that both sub approach Ni differently, not necessarily that one understands it better? It does say that Fi sub understands the moment better and is less likely to do the procrastinate and then try to do everything at the last minute (too accurate lol) as the Ne sub, but at the same time defers to their dual of Te sub “who dictates its own (regarding timeliness?)”
    so Ni can become a bit more “active” in Ne sub only because they push away the aspect of it that helps you time things correctly (because it’s uninteresting/boring - not stimulating enough for Ne; you “just don’t feel like it”) so it comes back later

    and that Fi sub can ignore the Ni timeliness thing that hen with dual because they are deferring to them. I think by themselves they probably wouldn’t ignore it. But that they “feel” it better than Ne sub? Idk I think both subs prob feel it equally well but overall I get what they are trying to say

    that’s what I got from it haha

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