ISFps and ESFjs, anyone actually struggling to make friends?

[InkMyUmbrella]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

[Suz]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

I'm not sure if I'm alpha SF - many people here have proposed that type for me - so take what I say in context with the type uncertainty.
I am fairly good at making friends but I do have a bit of social anxiety when in unfamiliar milieus. I have been there and done that and have functioned well, but it does take a lot out of me and once in a while such an experiences has felt awkward (usually because I found the people there boring or uninteresting). Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

[Adam Strange]

I'm not sure if I'm alpha SF - many people here have proposed that type for me - so take what I say in context with the type uncertainty.
I am fairly good at making friends but I do have a bit of social anxiety when in unfamiliar milieus. I have been there and done that and have functioned well, but it does take a lot out of me and once in a while such an experiences has felt awkward (usually because I found the people there boring or uninteresting). Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

Damn, all of that has happened to me, too, @Suz.

Dunno if that makes me an introvert, though.

[Suz]

Damn, all of that has happened to me, too, @Suz.

Dunno if that makes me an introvert, though.

well the sapping of energy with these endeavors is one of the ways introversion is defined, isn't it? That was the specific thing I was referring to as showing me my introversion.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

They probably do dislike you and don't want to be around you, but I think this is a common human thing. I dislike other people and also don't want to be around them. I don't like conservative redneck SMASHes and they don't like me either. I don't like liberal faggy worldly people either though.

I think it has strong ties to blood roots and genetic code. You are naturally wary of anybody who isn't part of your own tribe/family and they have to earn that right. When your genes want to reproduce then you want to be around this person etc. Or you have something to exchange etc. Otherwise what's the point? Cold distance is more efficient.

Charming narcissists don't really have this filter- they'll just be pretend-chummy with everybody to get their own needs met, but they aren't good to be in a relationship with anyway at all since we humans naturally want true love and meaning/intimacy which the narcissist can't provide.

Don't worry about being liked. You will find 'your family' just by being yourself. Just do that and don't put on some fake persona to please another person. <3

[Delilah]

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.
@Suz: are you seriously considering SEI? I find it hard to believe you could be in conflicting quadra to mine

[Suz]

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.
@Suz: are you seriously considering SEI? I find it hard to believe you could be in conflicting quadra to mine

Idk maybe i am beta or gamma after all... who knows. I've given up on socionics. It's so hard to really what what each type is supposed to be like.

[wacey]

The ESE and SEI I know: the ESE treats everyone the same amount of Fe, yet is so self sufficient they don't seem to need friends. The SEI I'm close with has suffered a very tramuatic past and amoung other hurts, scars, and coping habits, has become very introverted and shy's away from many people. Which is a shame for me to see because this person really is so vibrant (jokes, teasing) and likable; all the best parts of Fe. The trouble is the negative streak in SEIs combined with introverted sensing which leads to isolated nesting.

Some of this might be explained that Fe =\= sociability, which is what many assume of alpha SFs.

[Tallmo]

It's complicated.

SEI is one of the weakest types compared with common standards in society. So SEIs often get neurotic, they either withdraw into themselves or they become nervous. They can have great problems with adaption to society.

But those who manage to do it can be very social and full of life. Then they can be fully themselves and show their type strengths.

I have had the same experience with social problems, but I notice that the more I adapt the better things get. Basically this means taking on the challenges that society and life puts on me.

We should remember that a manifestation of a type is not necessarily directly type related. It can just be a consequence of bad adaption, common for that type.

[GuavaDrunk]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

That sounds more like your anxiousness making you look for signs that things are going badly, and strong Fe making it easy to find even small signs of such. The key here is in the interpretation, not the input.

[Rebelondeck]

Ips often develop siege mentalities. SXIs are the most observant of body language but unfortunately have tendencies to jump to conclusions about odd nuances in expression while they themselves also display many uninterpretable or seemingly conflicting ones. They seem to frequently hide (SEIs may cower while SLIs prepare for battle) behind walls and when others sense the suspicion, they tend to look for more welcoming scenes. SEIs have the better tools to understand and mitigate this self-imposed isolation but this doesn't always work. When under stress, they do eventually try to search for logical rationalizations and often find out that they only needed to open their eyes a little wider and be a little less defensive and or reactive.........
a.k.a. I/O

[wacey]

That sounds more like your anxiousness making you look for signs that things are going badly, and strong Fe making it easy to find even small signs of such. The key here is in the interpretation, not the input.

Great point. It can take years to learn how to interpret without causing self conscious anxiety. Cogantive behavioural therapy is one technique that can help.

On a related note this same issue causes people anxiety when they smoke pot.

[at sirac son of sirac]

I've never known ESEs and SEIs to struggle to make friends.

Without knowing anything about you, who can say? And if I knew, I doubt I'm qualified, so I can only answer the question.

Maybe you're another type, or typology isn't your answer.

[Chae]

With SEI-Si there's quite a chance. Self-pres/sexual Dumas in particular, they have more introverted enneagram types as well. You know their dual, ILE, master of puppets, everywhere and nowhere exhausting themselves - this is everything that SEI isn't.

ESE - sounds more improbable. Leading "I cannot not express myself" with the immediacy of sensing has to make a social impact and connection, no matter how neurotic the person is. I mean can you imagine the Hugo of the socion in a lonely corner

[InkMyUmbrella]

Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

Bolded is me 100%. Over many years, I've tried out different personalities only to eventually give up. Now, only when I feel a deeper connection with a person and find them easy to talk to will I open up more.

They probably do dislike you and don't want to be around you, but I think this is a common human thing. I dislike other people and also don't want to be around them. I don't like conservative redneck SMASHes and they don't like me either. I don't like liberal faggy worldly people either though.

I think it has strong ties to blood roots and genetic code. You are naturally wary of anybody who isn't part of your own tribe/family and they have to earn that right. When your genes want to reproduce then you want to be around this person etc. Or you have something to exchange etc. Otherwise what's the point? Cold distance is more efficient.

Don't worry about being liked. You will find 'your family' just by being yourself. Just do that and don't put on some fake persona to please another person. <3

Ouch to the first bolded. And eh. Yes and no. I don't get along with people of my ethnic background very well either, so I think this is a "me" problem more than a genetic roots problem. But thank you!

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.

I wouldn't say I'm reserved...more so shy than anything else. Of course this could be from my perspective of myself, but i always figured I was a "heart on her sleeve" type of person aha

It's complicated.

SEI is one of the weakest types compared with common standards in society. So SEIs often get neurotic, they either withdraw into themselves or they become nervous. They can have great problems with adaption to society.

It sounds like SEI is so common because Jung/Myers clumped people who are neurotic/have self esteem issues into this category. Not saying other types can't have issues, but they seem to manifest as Si + Fe than anything else. At least this is my theory; I could be wrong. Also there are probably naturally happy ISFps.

Sounds like an eii

I did get this when I first took the socionics online test...I also scored INFP in Myers Briggs tests, but I am reluctant to call myself that. Many people I've asked think I'm an SFJ of some sort, maybe a couple see me as a Fi type, but I'm sticking to that for now. I've more so begun acting more INFj-ish as I've gotten older and more willing to be open minded. So it's pretty confusing.

[lemontrees]

It's probably easier to just not over-read others' reactions. Nobody's going to get along perfectly w/ everyone anyway.

[Tallmo]

It sounds like SEI is so common because Jung/Myers clumped people who are neurotic/have self esteem issues into this category. Not saying other types can't have issues, but they seem to manifest as Si + Fe than anything else. At least this is my theory; I could be wrong. Also there are probably naturally happy ISFps.

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

[at sirac son of sirac]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

Jung did speak about potential neuroses of each type, mainly each leading function, I can't remember what they were though.

But ... need to get type right first, no point in typing from neuroses then upwards for sure.

[InkMyUmbrella]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

That's what I mean. I saw some videos on youtube of self-proclaimed SEIs...granted, they could be another type if self-proclaimed, but I do think that S types comfortable in their own skin generally know who they are, and hold reliable accounts of their position-> anyways, I could not really relate to them in this regard. I'm not..."happy" as I am. I don't like the fact that I'm scared to try anything new and that I self doubt myself constantly. I also do realize that having an identity that you can stand on instead of following people around like a lost puppy is what gets you friends in the first place, but being a depressed SEI type makes that almost impossible for me. So it gets confusing as to where everything starts and where it all ends, if you get what I'm saying. Is it "natural" for SEIs to face depression (since human beings seem to naturally desire the opposite: a wild lifestyle filled with adventure, seeming full of strength to other people, confident in their abilities, etc), or are the "depressed" SEI's really something else? I'm less inclined to agree with the latter because that would mean that other types are less rare than we think. But anyways, then what creates the division between the content SEI and the depressed?

[Aylen]

Jung did speak about potential neuroses of each type, mainly each leading function, I can't remember what they were though.

But ... need to get type right first, no point in typing from neuroses then upwards for sure.

Jung's theory of neurosis is based on the premise of a self-regulating psyche composed of tensions between opposing attitudes of the ego and the unconscious. A neurosis is a significant unresolved tension between these contending attitudes. Each neurosis is unique, and different things work in different cases, so no therapeutic method can be arbitrarily applied. Nevertheless, there is a set of cases that Jung especially addressed. Although adjusted well enough to everyday life, the individual has lost a fulfilling sense of meaning and purpose, and has no living religious belief to which to turn. There seems to be no readily apparent way to set matters right. In these cases, Jung turned to ongoing symbolic communication from the unconscious in the form of dreams and visions.


Resolution of the tension causing this type of neurosis involves a careful constructive study of the fantasies. The seriousness with which the individual (ego) must take the mythological aspects of the fantasies may compare with the regard that devoted believers have toward their religion. It is not merely an intellectual exercise, but requires the commitment of the whole person and realization that the unconscious has a connection to life-giving spiritual forces. Only a belief founded on direct experience with this process is sufficient to oppose, balance, and otherwise adjust the attitude of the ego.


When this process works, this type of neurosis may be considered a life-guiding gift from the unconscious, even though the personal journey forced upon the individual sometimes takes decades. This may seem absurd to someone looking at a neurosis from the attitude that it is always an illness that should not have to happen, expects the doctor to have a quick cure, and that fantasies are unreliable subjective experiences.


A significant aspect of Jung's theory of neurosis is how symptoms can vary by psychological type. The hierarchy of discriminating psychological functions gives each individual a dominant sensation, intuition, feeling, or thinking function preference with either an extroverted or introverted attitude. The dominant is quite under the control of the ego. But the inferior function remains a gateway for unconscious contents. This creates typical manifestations of inferior insight and behavior when extreme function one-sidedness accompanies the neurosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung%2...ry_of_neurosis

[Tallmo]

Is it "natural" for SEIs to face depression (since human beings seem to naturally desire the opposite: a wild lifestyle filled with adventure, seeming full of strength to other people, confident in their abilities, etc), or are the "depressed" SEI's really something else? I'm less inclined to agree with the latter because that would mean that other types are less rare than we think. But anyways, then what creates the division between the content SEI and the depressed?

I don't know if its natural, many people can get depressed, but SEIs problems with the hard demands of life can lead to depression. For some SEIs the solution can be to find a rich partner, or to find a job that is not too demanding but not too boring either. Also use free time for some personal "SEI stuff", and that way compensate for a boring job. Or to bring in more fun and partying into life. It's also important to have Alpha NT friends, I feel that they give me much.

But I wouldn't say that SEI is a particularly depressive type, but some problems are usually present. They are also quite good at coping with negative stuff, because of the rich inner life (Si).

[InkMyUmbrella]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung%2...ry_of_neurosis

So... Is Jung aiming for a psychoanalytical approach to neurosis? That, just like Freud's theories, the unconscious is the "key" to the heart, or as is written here, the "life-giving spiritual force"? (Note- I didn't read the full wiki page, just the abstract attached to your post)

I don't know if its natural, many people can get depressed, but SEIs problems with the hard demands of life can lead to depression. For some SEIs the solution can be to find a rich partner, or to find a job that is not too demanding but not too boring either. Also use free time for some personal "SEI stuff", and that way compensate for a boring job. Or to bring in more fun and partying into life. It's also important to have Alpha NT friends, I feel that they give me much.

But I wouldn't say that SEI is a particularly depressive type, but some problems are usually present. They are also quite good at coping with negative stuff, because of the rich inner life (Si).

Maybe I have a terrible understanding of Si... My understanding is the need for comfort. I interact with the outside world, and alarm bells via Ne and Si go off in my head to avoid it because of the propensity for negative feelings. E.g. Challenging new puzzle: Si drains my energy from it because Ne provides the instinct of struggling to solve the puzzle and failing and feeling bad about myself. So I don't even do it. Instead, Si wants me to be as comfortable as possible, albeit through unhealthy habits (e.g. comfort junk food, watching things that I know will make me laugh and not give me any negative emotions, etc. Although, I do end up feeling rather empty once I engage in these...)

[Suz]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

Whenever someone says a certain type can only be successful at a certain job (especially one specific job), I take what they say with a lot of skepticism.

[xerx]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

I read your posts and you seem pretty OK; you're probably just over-thinking things. Fi PoLRs are pretty non-judgemental people anyway, and even when they are being judgemental, it's either very temporary (on a whim, basically) or not deeply felt.

[xerx]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

Also, are you taking medication of any kind? I had paranoid delusions of persecution for a year when I was put on this god-awful (and unnecessary, as I later found out) brain medicine. (not joking)

[Tallmo]

Maybe I have a terrible understanding of Si... My understanding is the need for comfort. I interact with the outside world, and alarm bells via Ne and Si go off in my head to avoid it because of the propensity for negative feelings. E.g. Challenging new puzzle: Si drains my energy from it because Ne provides the instinct of struggling to solve the puzzle and failing and feeling bad about myself. So I don't even do it. Instead, Si wants me to be as comfortable as possible, albeit through unhealthy habits (e.g. comfort junk food, watching things that I know will make me laugh and not give me any negative emotions, etc. Although, I do end up feeling rather empty once I engage in these...)

I usually explain Si as sensing inner impressions, whatever they might be. The environment and the materials around us is constantly making an impact on us and Si senses this impact/impressions. Comfort as an experience also belongs to this category, but it is not the whole story.

SEIs themselves don't necessarily think of this as "inner life". They just see this as "how things are". But when comparing with other people one can start understanding Si more.

Just like any other function Si too needs to be put to use, and refined. Cooking, working with interesting materials, drawing, taking care of clothes, playing an instrument, painting, technical work with metals, tools, decorating, making the home a cosy place, photography etc.

[InkMyUmbrella]

I read your posts and you seem pretty OK; you're probably just over-thinking things. Fi PoLRs are pretty non-judgemental people anyway, and even when they are being judgemental, it's either very temporary (on a whim, basically) or not deeply felt.

Thank you, that's very kind of you!

I just wanted to understand one thing- what does Fi have to do with my social anxiety? Maybe I misunderstood, but to me, Fi = judging someone based on the ethics of their actions, and deeming the actions and the person's character "good" or "bad". For me, my SA comes from being worried that the person isn't receiving me well, and more so blaming myself for not being socially competent.

Also, are you taking medication of any kind? I had paranoid delusions of persecution for a year when I was put on this god-awful (and unnecessary, as I later found out) brain medicine. (not joking)

I am currently not, but waiting for some financial things to work out before looking for a therapist. Definitely think this would help me

I usually explain Si as sensing inner impressions, whatever they might be. The environment and the materials around us is constantly making an impact on us and Si senses this impact/impressions. Comfort as an experience also belongs to this category, but it is not the whole story.

SEIs themselves don't necessarily think of this as "inner life". They just see this as "how things are". But when comparing with other people one can start understanding Si more.

Just like any other function Si too needs to be put to use, and refined. Cooking, working with interesting materials, drawing, taking care of clothes, playing an instrument, painting, technical work with metals, tools, decorating, making the home a cosy place, photography etc.

So...do you, as an Si-dom, continue with these "Si" things? In other words, you constantly work to make your environment around you as pleasant as possible, or you do things which sensationally make your inner world feel at place, e.g. technical work with tools? You focus on how the environment makes you feel constantly... do you find that you are very in touch with these sensations? Do you focus less on how things make you feel emotionally, e.g. avoid reading or doing something which might make you feel sad and/or insecure?

[Tallmo]

T
So...do you, as an Si-dom, continue with these "Si" things? In other words, you constantly work to make your environment around you as pleasant as possible, or you do things which sensationally make your inner world feel at place, e.g. technical work with tools? You focus on how the environment makes you feel constantly... do you find that you are very in touch with these sensations? Do you focus less on how things make you feel emotionally, e.g. avoid reading or doing something which might make you feel sad and/or insecure?

I am working as a house painter. This field is still new to me, but it is the first time I am able to work with true satisfaction. Basically painting and spackling etc. I am naturally interested in substances and materials. And I can concentrate on them for a long time.

Many SEIs are working in fields that are felt as being boring, because there is not enough Si involved.

I play an instrument. It is very Si-oriented, but logics is also required, that is not my strong side. But anyway it's worth it.

But I am a typical SEI in the sense that I have poorly developed Si. That's actually very common. My background is in intellectual stuff. Basically following the NeTi urge.

[xerx]

Thank you, that's very kind of you!

I just wanted to understand one thing- what does Fi have to do with my social anxiety? Maybe I misunderstood, but to me, Fi = judging someone based on the ethics of their actions, and deeming the actions and the person's character "good" or "bad". For me, my SA comes from being worried that the person isn't receiving me well, and more so blaming myself for not being socially competent.

That's certainly a pretty good description of (especially Gamma), but ime PoLR also extends to being pretty indifferent to other people's foibles. As with anything in Socionics, it's not an iron law-- like many people, I have unpleasant memories of dealing with SLE bullies in highschool, but even that was mostly a result of wanting to exert their power / wanting attention thanks to being spoiled, nihilistic brats. (interesting people are pretty awkward anyway)

I am currently not, but waiting for some financial things to work out before looking for a therapist. Definitely think this would help me

OK, good luck, but try to stay off bad meds.

[InkMyUmbrella]

I am working as a house painter. This field is still new to me, but it is the first time I am able to work with true satisfaction. Basically painting and spackling etc. I am naturally interested in substances and materials. And I can concentrate on them for a long time.

Many SEIs are working in fields that are felt as being boring, because there is not enough Si involved.

I play an instrument. It is very Si-oriented, but logics is also required, that is not my strong side. But anyway it's worth it.

But I am a typical SEI in the sense that I have poorly developed Si. That's actually very common. My background is in intellectual stuff. Basically following the NeTi urge.

That's me: Desiring intellect but also afraid of it/too lazy to really dive into it. I see a long, 10 page in depth paper about a potentially interesting topic, and I groan on the inside. I also see a really difficult puzzle and I cringe at the thought of spending eons trying to solve it...but once I do solve a puzzle, or understand a topic, or get a splendid idea/project, I get incredibly excited. I love creative writing because of this.

I am not sure if you can relate to this: I really enjoy watching makeup videos on youtube. Initially it was in order to learn how to put it on my face...later it became due to the satisfaction of watching all the creams and nice colors blend on someone's face. I love watching the makeup artist draw crisp lines and then use a brush to blend it in smoothly. I also love seeing the artist put a shocking color on their face either as a highlight (what goes on cheekbones) or as an eye-shadow shade. I can do this for hours, although I feel incredibly unproductive doing this. It's a weird craving I have. I also love watching food videos, like watching cookies bake in the oven sped-up and seeing the chocolate chunks bubble.

So my issue is that I do know that I have Si and Ne somewhere in my stacks, I'm just not sure where. From a real-world standpoint, what does Si look like in the dominant stack, second, third, fourth, etc. To what extent does an ESE and anyone with Si below use Si less than an SEI? If you get what I'm saying.

That's certainly a pretty good description of (especially Gamma), but ime PoLR also extends to being pretty indifferent to other people's foibles. As with anything in Socionics, it's not an iron law-- like many people, I have unpleasant memories of dealing with SLE bullies in highschool, but even that was mostly a result of wanting to exert their power / wanting attention thanks to being spoiled, nihilistic brats. (interesting people are pretty awkward anyway)

So you're saying that Fe types are not as judgmental to "foibles" than Fi doms? What would make an Fe angry, then, about other people? What if a Fi types values include being angry at others for improper behavior, i.e. being rude to others for no reason? How would you know if you are a Fi type or a Fe type in that case?

OK, good luck, but try to stay off bad meds.

What do you mean by "bad" meds? Like illegal substances?

[xerx]

So you're saying that Fe types are not as judgmental to "foibles" than Fi doms? What would make an Fe angry, then, about other people?

I can't speak for all Fe types, but bratty & immature people of any quadra could unscrupulously point out other people's flaws in an effort to be deliberately cruel. NiFe types oriented this way are probably the best at pushing other people's buttons-- they have the most elaborate kit for pinpointing faux pas and for manufacturing cynicism.

What do you mean by "bad" meds? Like illegal substances?

oh, lol, like unnecessary antidepressants and stuff.

[InkMyUmbrella]

I can't speak for all Fe types, but bratty & immature people of any quadra could unscrupulously point out other people's flaws in an effort to be deliberately cruel. NiFe types oriented this way are probably the best at pushing other people's buttons-- they have the most elaborate kit for pinpointing faux pas and for manufacturing cynicism.

I do this only when I've had enough of the person or feel taken advantage of... Yes it is immature and really I should just let go, but as someone with mental health issues, you only can hold in things for so long lol. E.g. My parents were hypercritical of me growing up, and nowadays I've been taking it less, blowing up at them easily for pushing my buttons, and telling them the times they screwed up as well. Probably an Fe thing more than a Fi thing...

[xerx]

I do this only when I've had enough of the person or feel taken advantage of... Yes it is immature and really I should just let go, but as someone with mental health issues, you only can hold in things for so long lol. E.g. My parents were hypercritical of me growing up, and nowadays I've been taking it less, blowing up at them easily for pushing my buttons, and telling them the times they screwed up as well. Probably an Fe thing more than a Fi thing...

Yes, I do that to my parents too. (:

[InkMyUmbrella]

Yes, I do that to my parents too. (:

really? where is Fe in your stacks?

[xerx]

really? where is Fe in your stacks?

Almost certainly my hidden agenda, but there's always room for doubt, I guess.

[Tallmo]

I am not sure if you can relate to this: I really enjoy watching makeup videos on youtube. Initially it was in order to learn how to put it on my face...later it became due to the satisfaction of watching all the creams and nice colors blend on someone's face. I love watching the makeup artist draw crisp lines and then use a brush to blend it in smoothly. I also love seeing the artist put a shocking color on their face either as a highlight (what goes on cheekbones) or as an eye-shadow shade. I can do this for hours, although I feel incredibly unproductive doing this. It's a weird craving I have. I also love watching food videos, like watching cookies bake in the oven sped-up and seeing the chocolate chunks bubble.

For me it's more like I don't imagine it being interesting at all, but when i actually do it I can go on for hours. Sensing stuff was always ordinary/ uninteresting to me. Until I actually started doing it.

So my issue is that I do know that I have Si and Ne somewhere in my stacks, I'm just not sure where. From a real-world standpoint, what does Si look like in the dominant stack, second, third, fourth, etc.

You have to get to know the relationships. That's the only way to be sure of your type imo.

To what extent does an ESE and anyone with Si below use Si less than an SEI? If you get what I'm saying.

They are often perceived as using it more. Because creative Si can be used in the framework of the base it can be expressed better, like in LSE. It gets a more explicit expression. Base Si is often almost invisible, and just has to be inferred. One just sees aloofness.

The base and creative are different. Base is the primary conscious orientation, Creative more assisting, "less conscious", difficult to use independently of base.

So you think you are ESE? You seem to be asking a lot of questions, that could be a hint of Ti suggestive. Just an idea.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think creative IE is seen as bit irresponsible from base user's perspective.
For example:
It is like: you got an idea from someone but do understand your own limits.
If the person is capable with Se they have capability to twist the world to follow their own path to some extent.

[InkMyUmbrella]

Almost certainly my hidden agenda, but there's always room for doubt, I guess.

Same... I relate more to the people who claim to be NTs on most sites, tbh, but I suspect most of those folks are actually just depressed XSFJs and their low self esteem made them spend way too much time in Ti mode lol. At least that's what happened to me

You have to get to know the relationships. That's the only way to be sure of your type imo.

Sorry, do you mind expanding here?

They are often perceived as using it more. Because creative Si can be used in the framework of the base it can be expressed better, like in LSE. It gets a more explicit expression. Base Si is often almost invisible, and just has to be inferred. One just sees aloofness.

The base and creative are different. Base is the primary conscious orientation, Creative more assisting, "less conscious", difficult to use independently of base.

So you think you are ESE? You seem to be asking a lot of questions, that could be a hint of Ti suggestive. Just an idea.

From what I read, ESE and SEI can really use their Ti a considerable amount if they are really interested in a topic. More often than not, this topic has some practical use in their minds- i.e. they don't just research the topic out of simple curiosity; it has an end purpose and usually to do with strengthening their ties with people.

From my perspective... it seems like "real" users of T/F are the following:
Fi- Gets their self confidence via developing a strong set of ethical standards, and adhering to those strongly, especially when these ethics/behaviors are different than how other people view morality.
Te- Gets their self confidence via objective measures of "success" and develop goals in order to reach these measures- e.g. money, visible power, control, social status, etc. They love accolades.
Ti- Gets their self confidence from being more "objective" than others and trying to be as objective as possible. They love problem solving and accomplishing an intellectual task that not many can figure out.
Fe- Gets our self confidence from our relationships. We want people to like us, to desire to be with us, to love to have us around. The more people who feel this way, the better.

Since my Fe is whack- meaning I desire social validation via friendships and romantic relationships, but struggle continuously- I go in full on Ti mode. I want to find the "truth" in order to figure out why I'm struggling to make friends, what can I do about it, is it even possible, should I give up, etc. But if there is something that doesn't really help me with my goals, like studying how cars work, then I usually don't give two craps about it.

[Tallmo]

Sorry, do you mind expanding here?

There are 16 type relationships between the types. You know that? You have to learn to observe these in real life and how they affect you. Usually people have friends in the same quadra, activators, duals, identicals etc. You have to see how this works, because then it's possbile to type yourself with accuracy.

[Suz]

That's me: Desiring intellect but also afraid of it/too lazy to really dive into it. I see a long, 10 page in depth paper about a potentially interesting topic, and I groan on the inside. I also see a really difficult puzzle and I cringe at the thought of spending eons trying to solve it...but once I do solve a puzzle, or understand a topic, or get a splendid idea/project, I get incredibly excited. I love creative writing because of this.

I am not sure if you can relate to this: I really enjoy watching makeup videos on youtube. Initially it was in order to learn how to put it on my face...later it became due to the satisfaction of watching all the creams and nice colors blend on someone's face. I love watching the makeup artist draw crisp lines and then use a brush to blend it in smoothly. I also love seeing the artist put a shocking color on their face either as a highlight (what goes on cheekbones) or as an eye-shadow shade. I can do this for hours, although I feel incredibly unproductive doing this. It's a weird craving I have. I also love watching food videos, like watching cookies bake in the oven sped-up and seeing the chocolate chunks bubble.

So my issue is that I do know that I have Si and Ne somewhere in my stacks, I'm just not sure where. From a real-world standpoint, what does Si look like in the dominant stack, second, third, fourth, etc. To what extent does an ESE and anyone with Si below use Si less than an SEI? If you get what I'm saying.



So you're saying that Fe types are not as judgmental to "foibles" than Fi doms? What would make an Fe angry, then, about other people? What if a Fi types values include being angry at others for improper behavior, i.e. being rude to others for no reason? How would you know if you are a Fi type or a Fe type in that case?




What do you mean by "bad" meds? Like illegal substances?

I resonate with a lot of things you said here