Perfectionism in POLR function?

[ConcreteButterfly]

Do people tend to be perfectionists in their POLR function?
I know some Te POLRs who produce really high quality work, albeit slower than Te egos.

[Beautiful sky]

No. Not me. Te Polr do produce high quality work but they don't always notice what's going on around them as they lean to Si. Work isn't Te Te is watching actions and movement, dynamics of things.

[Suz]

What would be an example of Ni-POLR perfectionism?

[ConcreteButterfly]

What would be an example of Ni-POLR perfectionism?

perfectly using every minute of your time? everything going according to plan?

[Beautiful sky]

perfectly using every minute of your time? everything going according to plan?

maybe worrying that everything doesn't go according to plan? Ni bases know how to absorb one's time if they know what plans people have with distractions and over extended conversations and such.

[ConcreteButterfly]

maybe worrying that everything doesn't go according to plan? Ni bases know how to absorb one's time if they know what plans people have with distractions and over extended conversations and such.

yeah exactly, Ni bases are lenient with distractions and changes of plan because they have an innate sense of how long things take, thus they can stop and start at their leisure. Ni polrs wouldn't feel naturally how long things take so every little distraction would risk jeopardizing the whole plan.

[Pookie]

I think Overcompensation is more applicable than Perfectionism. But even then, the overcompensation comes from the Ego functions. Te - Polr won't produce their top quality work through Te at all. They'll use Fe to infer what is valuable to focus on, and the overcompensation comes from the strength of their base. With my Ni, it's like connecting the dots. I may not have the breadth of knowledge or the compulsion to be active like a Te would, but i can figure things out quickly and compensate by focusing on whats important and how to work them together to make up for the time spent procrastinating.

[Suz]

How about Fi-POLR perfectionism?

[Beautiful sky]

How about Fi-POLR perfectionism?

Idk I have to think about all of these. In my case Se is mearely sense perseption and I'm overwhelmed in attacks but I have a difficult time backing down where Se base may pick and choose better than myself. Se also perceives texture of objects so I get overwhelmed around clutter and too many things so I actively clean up ang get rid of things nor hord them or organize the clutter. Most of my SEE friends have a lot of stuff and nic nacs or boxes of unorganized paperwork that they don't get rid of. I don't have that. I can't because I don't need to hold on to them so controllingly. I also dont get a lot of things just a few that I can get by on.

[Pookie]

How about Fi-POLR perfectionism?

Ti-Rationalization wheelhouse.
Think Walter from the Big Lebowski.

[Suz]

Ti-Rationalization wheelhouse.
Think Walter from the Big Lebowski.

i had to remind myself:



what exactly are you referring to though, for example?

[Pookie]

The Dude: Walter, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here, what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.
Donny: What the fuck is he talking about?
The Dude: My rug.
Walter Sobchak: Forget it, Donny, you're out of your element!
The Dude: Walter, the chinaman who peed on my rug, I can't go give him a bill, so what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
The Dude: Walter, this isn't a guy who built the railroads here. This is a guy...
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you...?
The Dude: Walter, he peed on my rug!
Donny: He peed on the Dude's rug.
Walter Sobchak: Donny you're out of your element! Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here!

Rigid(and in this case obtuse) logical structure defining what is right and wrong. A system. A code. Walter is a great example of a guy who lacks Fi, but overcompensates for it with the other functions he does possess. Force and Logic.

[Suz]

The Dude: Walter, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here, what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.
Donny: What the fuck is he talking about?
The Dude: My rug.
Walter Sobchak: Forget it, Donny, you're out of your element!
The Dude: Walter, the chinaman who peed on my rug, I can't go give him a bill, so what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
The Dude: Walter, this isn't a guy who built the railroads here. This is a guy...
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you...?
The Dude: Walter, he peed on my rug!
Donny: He peed on the Dude's rug.
Walter Sobchak: Donny you're out of your element! Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here!

Rigid(and in this case obtuse) logical structure defining what is right and wrong. A system. A code. Walter is a great example of a guy who lacks Fi, but overcompensates for it with the other functions he does possess. Force and Logic.

That was the example i had in mind when i watched the video too, actually...
Thanks for confirming!

[Suz]

Ok now, what about Ti-POLR perfectionism?

[Suz]

They can pursue Ti-perfectionism in the sense of fighting for countless causes where the weak or misunderstood just need a little bit of help to make them feel human and understood again.

How is this Ti-POLR perfectionism as opposed to just Fi-valuing?

I see IEEs as typically sympathetic to people with down syndrome, deformities, etc.

so in your mind, only IEEs are sympathetic to people with downs syndrome, deformities, etc??? That's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard, actually.

so NTR in so many ways...

Are you basically saying you're not sympathetic to these people, since you dont self-type IEE?

[The Exception]

I see my PoLR as something I try to avoid as much as I can. If I can't avoid it, I just try to get it over with as quickly as possible without thinking too much about the 'right' way of going about it. Far from perfectionist here. If there's any function I'm more likely to be perfectionist about, it would probably be my base function or possibly my role function. My role function, because I have some insecurity about it so I overthink it.

[Suz]

I see my PoLR as something I try to avoid as much as I can. If I can't avoid it, I just try to get it over with as quickly as possible without thinking too much about the 'right' way of going about it. Far from perfectionist here. If there's any function I'm more likely to be perfectionist about, it would probably be my base function or possibly my role function. My role function, because I have some insecurity about it so I overthink it.

well probably not everyone becomes perfectionist over their POLR, because not everyone gets sustained pressure on their POLR in their everyday life.

[Suz]

No one is perfectionist over their PoLR, unless they are in a very particular situation where they have to walk on eggshells, without any escape. Such a situation would be very stressful and draining. Even then it is more likely that this perfectionism is expressed through their mobilizing function.

Maybe instead of "perfectionism" in this thread, it might be better to use the word "neurosis"

[ConcreteButterfly]

Maybe instead of "perfectionism" in this thread, it might be better to use the word "neurosis"

I thought neurotic applied more to the role function? or is the entire super-ego block neurotic?

also polr seems to be something you avoid unless you have complete control over it. so perhaps it's perfectionist in the sense of looking for the perfect circumstances to express it?

[ConcreteButterfly]

I think Overcompensation is more applicable than Perfectionism. But even then, the overcompensation comes from the Ego functions. Te - Polr won't produce their top quality work through Te at all. They'll use Fe to infer what is valuable to focus on, and the overcompensation comes from the strength of their base. With my Ni, it's like connecting the dots. I may not have the breadth of knowledge or the compulsion to be active like a Te would, but i can figure things out quickly and compensate by focusing on whats important and how to work them together to make up for the time spent procrastinating.

good point, I would say there's a lot of over-compensation from the demonstrative function as well, though it would be unconscious and more of an aftereffect, in response to how the polr is received.

[ConcreteButterfly]

I see SLEs with devalued Ne as judging people entirely based on their actions whether they're committed to them or not. I've worked in business with an SLE before, and if someone was late to a meeting, didn't show up, etc., he would immediately judge them as not completely committed/dedicated to the cause. (no Ne-valuing the potential of someone, whether or not they can become a big contributor in the future based on their skillsets and possible development - more or less Se-valuing in judging them immediately in the here-and-now present moment) Think of corporate ST hierarchies where rising the ranks is important. Fi-PoLR manifested in treating people somewhat as objects and classifying whether they can be pushed to their own will or not or used for some purpose.

I see ILEs with devalued Se as judging people to be sometimes always lying, as a form of paranoia, or on the opposite extreme of judging everyone to be always honest, and being naive and gullible. Furthermore, I have an ILE friend who tries to maintain open relationships with everyone - he's very much into marketing, branding himself, or using social media to forge his own name and reputation. There is no acknowledgment of whom he should choose as a friend or whom he shouldn't - he just uses everyone to help him see and understand the truth in things. Even though the time he spends with any single one person may be very limited, he's authentic when he catches up with them, but might not see or understand the time needed to maintain the health in a relationship. He failed a romantic relationship this way once already before consciously realizing it.

i've noticed this about polrs too, it seems to be an "all or nothing" function, fi polrs all people are good or they're all corrupt, ni polrs all is going according to plan, or all is off track, etc. polr seems to take extreme positions, simplifying things too much.

[ConcreteButterfly]

In SEEs I notice a couple of things: 1. a tendency to abandon principles in favor of who is upset at the current moment. I've seen this manifested in so many ways in the business world - SEEs tend to cave in to who's complaining the loudest. They value Se-speaking out and the Fi-emotions from people and there is rarely an impersonal decision made on principle. Whenever I see an SEE stick to a rule firmly, it's often because its implementation favors them and their emotional well-being in some way - not because of the virtue of the rule itself. I also notice 2. a strong desire / tendency to either A. live in the moment completely and ignore long-term planning and analysis and the consequences of decisions or B. to plan and map everything out to the extreme, and become somewhat paranoid if something new or a new piece of data interrupts what was previously expected.

In IEEs I see a tendency to vehemently deny abrupt classification of others and fight strongly for promoting understanding of different people's perspectives or opinions. They will pretty much never classify someone as a "loser", "dweeb" "geek", etc. like an LSI has no problem doing, but IEEs will go to the other extreme of believing almost every aspect of behavior can be explainable or relatable on some level of emotion to someone else. They can pursue Ti-perfectionism in the sense of fighting for countless causes where the weak or misunderstood just need a little bit of help to make them feel human and understood again. I see IEEs as typically sympathetic to people with down syndrome, deformities, etc. In this sense the IEE has a completely opposite approach to the LSI's desire to categorize everything into simple explainable things - IEEs see the world as more complex and see all of the potential, possibilities, and limiting definitions that Ti carries and typically choose to express their lives in a way where they are not limited by categories. They can seek 'perfectionism' and contentment when all people understand all perspectives, and they are willing to talk unfailingly with limitless stories until this goal is achieved. Other IEEs express Ti-perfectionism in the completely opposite perspective - adopting a sense of total apathy for misunderstandings and quickly dismissing those who simply fail to see the point. With IEEs there's usually a bit of an inner struggle in determining their identity as it is constantly changing.

ive heard the polr function described as 'democratic'. ti polrs with their need to broaden categories are probably then coming from a democratic perspective, that all people can be in all positions and that categories are interchangeable. this would, in theory, make it easier to defend their Te hidden agenda when they lack facts/working methods.

[mu4]

PoLR perfectionism is something I've noted in other posts. The PoLR is a source of neurotic perfectionism, generally limited to a narrow area. It's a 1 dimensional function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect...8psychology%29

See the wiki about normal vs neurotic perfectionism here. I will link the posts I've made in the past about this.

[ConcreteButterfly]

PoLR perfectionism is something I've noted in other posts. The PoLR is a source of neurotic perfectionism, generally limited to a narrow area. It's a 1 dimensional function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect...8psychology%29

See the wiki about normal vs neurotic perfectionism here. I will link the posts I've made in the past about this.

"Normal perfectionists are more inclined to pursue perfection without compromising their self-esteem, and derive pleasure from their efforts. Neurotic perfectionists are prone to strive for unrealistic goals and feel dissatisfied when they cannot reach them."

Hm it does sound like how the polr is experienced, one has unrealistic expectations of themselves in this area and takes mistakes as a sign of personal deficiency. The high expectations are probably from the hidden agenda, and the fact that polr lacks even social norms to give it perspective.

[FoxOnStilts]

I tend to over-focus on my polr shortcomings and go over everything 3 times to make sure I'm not accidentally letting it slip (online at least; it's obviously harder since real life doesn't have a submit button). As a result, I make less obvious/often polr oops's than many other people of my type, but it still happens. I'm not good at it and it doesn't come naturally and I prefer to avoid it, but sometimes it's impossible.

[Beautiful sky]

I tend to over-focus on my polr shortcomings and go over everything 3 times to make sure I'm not accidentally letting it slip (online at least; it's obviously harder since real life doesn't have a submit button). As a result, I make less obvious/often polr oops's than many other people of my type, but it still happens. I'm not good at it and it doesn't come naturally and I prefer to avoid it, but sometimes it's impossible.

what is Fi to you and how do you overcompinsate on it

[Suz]

I tend to over-focus on my polr shortcomings and go over everything 3 times to make sure I'm not accidentally letting it slip (online at least; it's obviously harder since real life doesn't have a submit button). As a result, I make less obvious/often polr oops's than many other people of my type, but it still happens. I'm not good at it and it doesn't come naturally and I prefer to avoid it, but sometimes it's impossible.

what do you go over 3 times? like stuff you say? to make sure it's appropriate?

[ClownsandEntropy]

so in your mind, only IEEs are sympathetic to people with downs syndrome, deformities, etc??? That's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard, actually.

so NTR in so many ways...

Are you basically saying you're not sympathetic to these people, since you dont self-type IEE?

I'm not sure about people with Down Syndrome or stuff like that, but I could totally see IEEs being one to want to support people in need. I have one IEE who I need to control how much I just whine to them, because they're so good at dealing with my whining and they don't get fed up of it - ever - it seems.

[Suz]

No.

1. My use of the adverb "typically" in my statement implies that it's not a set rule 100% of the time. "Typically" carries a different connotation than "always" or "only" imho.

2. I'm not even sure where you got the inference that "only" IEEs care about those people. I never said that or, imo, came close to saying that. Just my reaction to that is that weird categorical thinking is often found in Ti-creatives as an oversimplification and oftentimes incorrect way of putting words in someone else's mouth and then condemning them for it. Words did the same thing to me recently, and I believe he's SLE, and this makes me think you're more ILE, Suz.

3. In case my #2 didn't answer it already, no, I am NOT saying that I'm NOT sympathetic towards those people because I DON'T self-type IEE. Again I think that's a weird use of simplification & deductive reasoning.



These are just some observations how Ti-POLR can be manifested. --- I also want to point out that this is not in absolute means definitively characteristic of all Fi-valuers (why didn't you just say Fi-ego, even within your oversimplification?) Obviously not every single person in Gamma & Delta quadra are "fighting for countless causes where the weak or misunderstood just need a little bit of help to make them feel human and understood again."

Furthermore, wtf, Suz? You asked very open-ended questions which I answered for you and then you're going to nitpick over little things in my post? Or put words in my mouth or assume things I didn't say? Hopefully my responses to your questions help clarify any misunderstandings my posts may have caused, but I remind you I'm not obligated to answer any of your questions. Thank you and have a lovely day.

Well, i can't be ILE, since I'm very sympathetic to people with Downs syndrome, deformities, etc.

[Words]

I really hope you're not being serious... I think it's not definitively type related. Why couldn't an ILE be sympathetic towards people with Downs syndrome?

I meant to say I believe IEEs are more likely to be sympathetic to those in need, like ClownsandEntropy sort of said also. (meaning some IEEs would still not care, of course, while other types still would...) I wasn't trying to classify things as black & white as 'ONLY THIS TYPE CAN DO THIS' like you seem to be doing...

Please tell me you're not being serious with that statement.

OK so you believe IEEs are more likely to be sympathetic, but you also believe that some IEEs won't care. I wonder if you could present your 'believe' in actual numbers here, because what you are really saying is that none of what you have spoke it type related.

In other words, you've rambled on the whole way to say absolutely nothing.

Are you displaying Te or PoLR perfection William?

[Suz]

I really hope you're not being serious... I think it's not definitively type related. Why couldn't an ILE be sympathetic towards people with Downs syndrome?

Its your own words, my friend... your own words...

I meant to say I believe IEEs are more likely to be sympathetic to those in need, like ClownsandEntropy sort of said also. (meaning some IEEs would still not care, of course, while other types still would...) I wasn't trying to classify things as black & white as 'ONLY THIS TYPE CAN DO THIS' like you seem to be doing...

Please tell me you're not being serious with that statement.

And you're still contradicting yourself here. Being sympathetic to someone with a disability is NTR. No "more likely" or "less likely".

[The Exception]

Neurosis is indeed the right word, especially because of the intimate relationship between the PoLR and Mobilizing function:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...t-you-are.html

Interesting.

How would this look in an LII?

[Zero11]

I know some Te POLRs who produce really high quality work, albeit slower than Te egos.

You have no idea what Te even is. And you don´t know shit about the theory as one who wants to perfectionize his PoLR or something like that isn´t correctly typed.

[Words]

You have no idea what Te even is. And you don´t know shit about the theory as one who wants to perfectionize his PoLR or something like that isn´t correctly typed.

Am I the only one noticing a contradiction here?

[Suz]

I do not really have a very well developed empirical understanding of LIIs 'shortcomings', but perhaps this blog post might give some pointers:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

On a more social level, I would say LIIS and EIIs Mobilizing Si tends to pacify their environment. Normally this is done by selecting an environment that is already 'pacified', but in case it is not, they will try to pacify it using Si (trying to come across as relaxed about things, making suggestions for improving the relationship, trying to discuss issues while treating the opponent as an equal and they being reasonable), and in the process this would violate the principles involved with Se. This could create tension in interactions with Se-valuers, to which the Se-PoLR person would respond with even more Si-Mobilizing. Until, of course, the drop fills the bucket, and shit hits the fan and the LII or EII starts using Se, often causing the greatest damage to themselves.

I resonate with this a lot, actually

[Suz]

You have no idea what Te even is. And you don´t know shit about the theory as one who wants to perfectionize his PoLR or something like that isn´t correctly typed.

Nothing was said about WANTING to perfectionize the POLR.
Sometimes you are expected to engage your POLR so we are discussing what happens when that's the case.

But i agree that I dont think Te necessarily represents ability to "good quality work" as concretebutterfly alluded to. Good quality work can be a product of other IEs too. Being efficient, yes, that's a manifestation i could see as Te-motivated. Many jobs require being efficient, and there are Te-POLRs who might end up in such jobs, for example. What then? People end up needing to cope, even while fighting and hating the requirement to the bitter end.

Because POLR is a weak function, you end up needing to invoke all your other strengths to compensate for it... and that leads to a neurotic way to try to keep up, like an all or nothing thing. When it comes to the POLR, you would rather be in the "nothing" mode, but if you have to show competence in your POLR, you give it your all so you dont mess up or fail--analogous to "throwing the kitchen sink" at something that you have no idea how to fix. Obvs that can't be sustained for long, especially since the whole time you're trying to be good at it you hate the expectation & pressure of having to be good at it.

[ConcreteButterfly]

You have no idea what Te even is. And you don´t know shit about the theory as one who wants to perfectionize his PoLR or something like that isn´t correctly typed.

ok what is Te then? also what's with the rude tone ? it's just a discussion calm down..
also i said nothing about trying to perfectionize the polr, when i said Te-polrs produce high quality work what i meant was they (seem) very particular about how they do their work, to the point of seeming perfectionistic. i wasn't referring to the quality of their work so much as their attitude while doing it. neurotic is probably a good word to describe it.

and i'm an IEE, in case it wasn't obvious. i'm fairly certain on my type but if you want to debate it go ahead.

[Words]

ok what is Te then? also what's with the rude tone ? it's just a discussion calm down..
also i said nothing about trying to perfectionize the polr, when i said Te-polrs produce high quality work what i meant was they (seem) very particular about how they do their work, to the point of seeming perfectionistic. i wasn't referring to the quality of their work so much as their attitude while doing it. neurotic is probably a good word to describe it.

and i'm an IEE, in case it wasn't obvious. i'm fairly certain on my type but if you want to debate it go ahead.

It's something ashura imagined

[Suz]

ok what is Te then? also what's with the rude tone ? it's just a discussion calm down..
also i said nothing about trying to perfectionize the polr, when i said Te-polrs produce high quality work what i meant was they (seem) very particular about how they do their work, to the point of seeming perfectionistic. i wasn't referring to the quality of their work so much as their attitude while doing it. neurotic is probably a good word to describe it.

and i'm an IEE, in case it wasn't obvious. i'm fairly certain on my type but if you want to debate it go ahead.

OK i've been kind of trying to figure out Te lately (among other things). I can try to answer and see if people agree with me.

So what i understand Te to involve includes:
--efficiency

--"black and white" facts are facts, and that's that. No grey areas, no larger context/framework.

--gathering facts, remembering facts, accessing facts, demonstrating representation of facts (e.g. making charts, graphs, etc)

--business-minded (Te is also called "business logic" sometimes, and i think it makes sense considering the synthesis of the previous 3 qualities), budgeting

--organization, categorization (i guess that's also related to "playing" with facts, so to speak)

[Beautiful sky]

OK i've been kind of trying to figure out Te lately (among other things). I can try to answer and see if people agree with me.

So what i understand Te to involve includes:
--efficiency

--"black and white" facts are facts, and that's that. No grey areas, no larger context/framework.

--gathering facts, remembering facts, accessing facts, demonstrating representation of facts (e.g. making charts, graphs, etc)

--business-minded (Te is also called "business logic" sometimes, and i think it makes sense considering the synthesis of the previous 3 qualities), budgeting

--organization, categorization (i guess that's also related to "playing" with facts, so to speak)

Te is watching actions in a dynamic way. For instance one day my bf came to pick me up at work for lunch and he said "Babe, you're demanding, but so am I. I watched you tell one of your coworkers 'move it'." I said "so? we are friends and I was teasing" he said nothing. So, in turn Te is not only watching actions and gathering facts about a person, but it is also making social judgements, "it's not the right place" or "that's rude" from these they make rigid requirements of others that are often unreachable and expectations that others can not possibly match up to. It in forces perfection on external objects, that they must perform to a standard, thus removing human elements such as feelings, love, flexibility. I kick their butt on all of these