ISTp-ENFp duality complementary subtypes (IEE-SLI)

[zenbrat]

I was looking at the subtypes for ENFP & ISTP and noticed that even within these dual pairs, certain subtypes seem most complimentary.

Looking at my own experiences (as an Ne subtype), I've had smooth interactions with 4 Si-ISTp's and 'difficult' interactions with 2 Te-ISTp's. My oldest son is an Si-ISTp and we get along like all of the the dual descriptions propose we should. I wasn't aware that I had been experiencing duality all these years. I strongly suspect my father is also an Si-ISTp - he and my son are almost identical. I have to wonder if that's part of the reason why I keep attracting ISTp's, almost without fail. I have practice?

The Ne-ENFp + Si-ISTp pair seems mutually laid back, thoughtful, with shared sensory and 'aesthetic' interests. There is a heavy internal focus with a greater need to share their thoughts and conclusions about things. There is more focus here on mental/emotional processing of experiences in order to "understand" than with the other pair. They experience together, then process together.

The Fi-ENFp + Te-ISTp pair seems to have a shared drive toward excitement and activity. There is less internal focus and less need to share their internal responses (which may feel burdensome for the other). Keeping things 'light' and active appears to be the greater preference here. Both of these subtypes probably maintain a wider circle of aquaintainces and therefore have less difficulty with 'time expectations' of the other.


What do you think?

[Going B. Zerk]

Interesting.

Although the subtype theory is imo debatable. Some ppl don’t fall in neither, while others seem to have a bit of both in similar amounts.

But interesting nevertheless.


And what made your interactions with the Te subtype “difficult”? If you don’t mind my asking...

[Expat]

The Ne-ENFp + Si-ISTp pair seems mutually laid back, thoughtful, with shared sensory and 'aesthetic' interests. There is a heavy internal focus with a greater need to share their thoughts and conclusions about things. There is more focus here on mental/emotional processing of experiences in order to "understand" than with the other pair. They experience together, then process together.

The Fi-ENFp + Te-ISTp pair seems to have a shared drive toward excitement and activity. There is less internal focus and less need to share their internal responses (which may feel burdensome for the other). Keeping things 'light' and active appears to be the greater preference here. Both of these subtypes probably maintain a wider circle of aquaintainces and therefore have less difficulty with 'time expectations' of the other.

I'd have thought that the bold parts would be reversed, that is, belong to the other pair, respectively.

[mikemex]

I'm aware of at least two kinds of ISTp.

One is "hedonist". It's more extroverted, more sociable, less reserved, less intellectual. The sense of humor is quite dark; almost offensive. Is rarely interested in working; prefers to drink and be involved in other leisure activities.

The other is "expert". It's more introverted, less sociable, more reserved. The sense of humor is more "elegant" and less crude. More receptive to intellectual stuff. Likes technical stuff and be involved in "interesting projects". In general, enjoys working more than the other kind.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

[FDG]

I agree 100 percent with zenbrat, at least - my observations about ISTp-ENFp interactions confirm your theory. May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain. There's a certain inclination for competition and attempting to subdue the other one.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

[mikemex]

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

We both know that you don't believe it. You're a nerd who spends a good deal of his time analyzing stuff around here. You could spend all that time having fun doing mindless stuff.

But that would not be... fun.

[FDG]

So, basically, the more intelligent you are, the less likely it is that you are interested in having fun? I really enjoy being stupid, then.

We both know that you don't believe it. You're a nerd who spends a good deal of his time analyzing stuff around here. You could spend all that time having fun doing mindless stuff.

But that would not be... fun.

Ah...Ok, I get now what you mean.

[zenbrat]

I'm aware of at least two kinds of ISTp.

One is "hedonist". It's more extroverted, more sociable, less reserved, less intellectual. The sense of humor is quite dark; almost offensive. Is rarely interested in working; prefers to drink and be involved in other leisure activities.

The other is "expert". It's more introverted, less sociable, more reserved. The sense of humor is more "elegant" and less crude. More receptive to intellectual stuff. Likes technical stuff and be involved in "interesting projects". In general, enjoys working more than the other kind.

I have no idea which subtype is each; if subtypes exist at all. It seems to me that it has to do more with intelligence (not all ISTp are the same) level. Very intelligent ISTp are like very intelligent people of any other type: more interesting in doing something than just wasting time.

I agree with these descriptions. I've seen the same patterns, but I've found both 'types' to be highly intelligent. The hedonist variety seems to operate in inspired bursts of production and intellectual insight, but the depth and quality are equal to the that of the steady 'expert'.

[zenbrat]

I agree 100 percent with zenbrat, at least - my observations about ISTp-ENFp interactions confirm your theory. May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain. There's a certain inclination for competition and attempting to subdue the other one.

FDG, this describes it very well! I am going to write an in-depth response to these points, but I am exhausted right now. Brain no workie. I will try to post it tomorrow.

[mikemex]

Well, I just tried to describe, not to make the impression that one is better than the other. I like both kinds, each has wonderful things to offer.

Examples:

Hedonist: ICEPick
Expert: Napalm

P.S. Another characteristic is that "hedonist" is messy and "expert" is orderly.

[Jarno]

my experience is the same.

I get along better with same (producing) subtypes.

ILI
SEE

[Slacker]

According to Mike's descriptions, my husband is more "expert" although he is part "hedonist" too. My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

[zenbrat]

My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

Yes, that's true. In every typing system there is a dichotomy - a dark half and a light half. One is 'comfort zone' behavior and the other is 'coping' behavior.

[leckysupport]

My understanding is that subtypes are more about leaning in a direction rather than being completely one or the other though.

Yes, that's true. In every typing system there is a dichotomy - a dark half and a light half. One is 'comfort zone' behavior and the other is 'coping' behavior.

What? Please explain further.

[zenbrat]

May I ask if your interactions with ISTp-Tes match this description:

The relationship between Exxp-Ne and Ixxp-Te is one between two people empowered by specific achievements. Exxp-Ne has a habit of just doing it. Ixxp-Te has the habit of doing it really forcefully and emphatically so that its acknowledged for certain.

ISTp-Te feels constant tension - a drive, a need - to do something productive. They focus heavily on their work and personal projects, often pulling all-nighters to get things just right. The project could be a hobby, merely an entertaining distraction, but they approach it like it must be done. They formulate a loose blueprint and process flow in their minds before they begin, often loosely scheduling certain times of day when they will work on these projects. They need to "see" evidence of their contribution, skill, intellect, in the production of something useful, beautiful, exacting. Without these milestones, the 'lows' in quiet moments are overwhelming - they begin to question why they even bother 'being here'. I suppose these projects are a distraction from those lows; a way to keep them at bay and give themselves a purpose.

ENFp-Ne is driven by a need for constant improvement in themselves, their environments and their understanding of things. I think ENFp feels the pressure of being a bit disorganized, distracted, forgetful, etc - generally feeling "all over the place", all the time. Achievements have the same effect - it provides a focus, a useful purpose. Perfectionism nags them - "close enough" is NOT good enough for the ENFp, but it may often feel like that is as close as they will ever come. The ENFp will also pull all-nighters to get it just right, but just like the ISTp, this comes in inspired burst of productivity. They just jump into it wherever they can find a starting point and figure it out as they go.

Both feel the need to "see" personal improvement through achievement of desired results.

There's a certain inclination for competition...

Yes, yes, yes... but no. Competition here is friendly, never malicious. It's more about projecting (protecting) competency in the other's arena of prowess. The ISTp-Te and ENFp-Ne may have completely different skills but they both know that they could do what the other does equally well, if they were so inclined. They may try their hand at the other's skill set to achieve competency but there is no drive to "best" the other. There is mutual respect and appreciation in this sort of competition.

For example, if the ISTp-Te is a web developer, and the ENFP-Ne works on increasing their skill here, the ISTp appreciates the ENFp's ability - and vice versa. I think the Te and Ne feel a measure of pride in the other because both of them are (or can be) so capable in so many areas. Competition here is motivating, "improving" and bonding rather than destructive and divisive. However, the ENFp is usually most interested in learning the ISTp's skills rather than the other way around, unless those skills can be applied to ISTp's own projects/interests.

Also, because the ENFp is interested in ev-er-y-thing and often knows a little about a lot, the ISTp feels comfortable discussing even their most 'obscure' interests with them - often in a teaching way - knowing that the ENFp-Ne is receptive to learning & discussion (while most other people couldn't care less)

and attempting to subdue the other one.

This is funny. I don't think the Ne tries to subdue the Te, but the Te does try to subdue the Ne. It's never active control, but the Te controls the situation by being 'fixed'. The ISTp is convinced that their idea, way of doing something, decision, and/or conceptualized 'schedule' of events is the right way and cannot be moved by the ENFp. No matter how vehement the ENFp's outburst, or how sweet their coercion, ISTp (often) remains fixed. ENFp eventually concedes and is 'subdued' once they realize that beating & sweet-talking the rock will not move it one inch. However, over time, the ENFp begins to see that the ISTp is rational, has a good practical understanding of things and makes thoughtful decisions, so they begin to trust in it without quite so much pushback. I think the ENFp is more convinced than subdued. The ISTp also begins to trust in the ENFp's intuition about things and becomes more receptive to being "shifted" slightly if it seems best - but never moved.

[JuJu]

Dear everyone reading this,

I know that this subject has been done before, but I'm curious about how it applies in this specific instance: how do IEE and SLI subtypes undermine (or improve) IEE-SLI duality?

For example, is the sensory SLI subtype better-suited to the ethical IEE subtype?

If you have a story to tell, by all means... Or a guess (ideally, about which you've thought for more than twenty seconds. heh. please.)

[xyz]

i wonder which one i am. as for the post, i think it does play out differently... but im not sure about undermining?

[munenori2]

a little birdie told me that Si goes with Ne and Fi with Te.

[hellothere]

i wonder which one i am. as for the post, i think it does play out differently... but im not sure about undermining?

maybe Si subtype, which could explain why some people (according to the userlists on the wiki) type you as ISTp while others type you ISFp

[hellothere]

Generally I think it makes sense (as munenori has already said), that an ISTp-Si subtype (who either is relatively stronger in Si/Se, or values Si/Ne relatively more [than a Te subtype]) would benefit from more Ne (than a Te subtype) and hence be more suited to the ENFp-Ne, and vice versa.

What might be interesting though is how subtypes are different in their usage of (unvalued) id functions. I started a thread recently where thehotelambush suggested that as an INTj-Ne, he finds Te much more annoying than INTj-Tis do, and also said that some ESxj-Si's have more noticeable demonstrative Se.

Now I have read before that creative subtypes (e.g. ISTp-Te, ENFp-Fi), have more prominent PoLRs, so for example an ISTp-Te may be more sensitive (insensitive?) to Fe than an ISTp-Si. But at the same time, an ENFp-Fi may have more noticeable Fe, which might not be a good thing for the ISTp-Te. Perhaps then this ISTp is better off with the ENFp-Ne, because they are less likely to hit the oversensitive PoLR.

However in the same post, thehotelambush mentioned that he found demonstrative Se very attractive, so who knows how this stuff might work.

A related question - is duality likely to be 'stronger' for two accepting subtypes compared to two producing subtypes?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't prescribe to the sub types thing.. To sum it up, I don't see how or why someone would put an emphasis on one function more than the other for a length of time for sub types to mean anything; They're already in order as per model A?

[Slacker]

I'm ENFp-Fi and my husband is ISTp-Te

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I'm ENFp-Fi and my husband is ISTp-Te

Hi slacker, how does that work? Does that mean you are more F than N?

[Slacker]

It doesn't mean you're more F than N, just that you put a bit more emphasis on Fi than Ne-subtype ENFps. It doesn't turn me into an INFj or anything. In my opinion it's a pretty subtle difference, and while I think types are static, I do think people can change from one subtype to the other depending on where their emphasis is during different times of their life. I also don't think subtypes probably make much difference in relationships - I mean you still value and don't value the same information elements. That's my opinion on subtypes anyway.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

It doesn't mean you're more F than N, just that you put a bit more emphasis on Fi than Ne-subtype ENFps. It doesn't turn me into an INFj or anything. In my opinion it's a pretty subtle difference, and while I think types are static, I do think people can change from one subtype to the other depending on where their emphasis is during different times of their life. I also don't think subtypes probably make much difference in relationships - I mean you still value and don't value the same information elements. That's my opinion on subtypes anyway.

Cool. That was informative thanks

Kinda what I thought, like maybe in the week at work I could use me Te more, and at weekend could use mi Si more!

[xyz]

maybe Si subtype, which could explain why some people (according to the userlists on the wiki) type you as ISTp while others type you ISFp

Do people really think I'm a SEI type?

[jessica129]

Do people really think I'm a SEI type?

If not ISTP, i could see this as a close possiblity. And where are these "subtype" descriptions people are speaking of?

[xyz]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=SLI_subtypes

I don't know about being haughty or dressing with taste, but um, everything there is 99% accurate for me on Si.

[tiny_dancer]

C'mon, you wear Yoohoo pants - most people can never aspire to that level of sophistication..

[jessica129]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=SLI_subtypes

I don't know about being haughty or dressing with taste, but um, everything there is 99% accurate for me on Si.

Wow, I've never read a more accurate description of myself after reading the Logical subtype description.

Apparently I live under a rock as I have never seen these before.

[xyz]

C'mon, you wear Yoohoo pants - most people can never aspire to that level of sophistication..

You should've seen me last night. Apparently I have a Yoohoo problem.

Wow, I've never read a more accurate description of myself after reading the Logical subtype description.

Apparently I live under a rock as I have never seen these before.

I just found these myself too.

I can be the second one at work, but I'm really just the first description. So high five identical.

[istpunk]

gay sex

[JuJu]

I love having all of these ISTps here! Seriously, I come back after a few months and this place is great. Wow.

Slacker Mom, I agree with you about subtypes -- they're useful in describing someone's current emphasis, but in my experience, they're variable. For example, the intuitive description rings more true to me in general; however, I'd bet that if you were to ask most of my friends, they would probably describe me as the ethical subtype. (Private face/Public face thing... Not that the public face is forced either--just different manifestations under different circumstances.)

I dated an ISTp logical subtype and was hitting the PoLR all the time... (Sorry, I wrote that to sound slightly naughty, but it's true--very reactive, emotionally... That said, we were pretty young, so it might have been just a maturity issue.) Any other experiences like this?

hellothere's question is interesting: "is duality likely to be 'stronger' for two accepting subtypes compared to two producing subtypes?"

In the case of ISTp-ENFp, theoretically, I imagine think that producing subtypes--logical and ethical--would have a more stable relationship due to the scanning nature (poor word choice, but I'm at work and can't think clearly now) of the accepting functions (Ne for ENFp and Si for ISTp.) In practice, I don't know--Slacker Mom could probably speak to this much better than I could.

Thank you all for the responses. I really appreciate the insights.

[istpunk]

gay sex

[iAnnAu]

Neither subtype stands out as more me. Both have stuff that rings true and both have stuff that I doubt applies.
The Sensory subtype sounds like more fun ... but overall, the differences between the two seem kinda subtle. What use are the subtypes, anyway?

[jessica129]

I think Lokivanguard is Logical while Jessica129 is Sensor subtype. The only proof to back this up is how both of you use language when you post. Sensor subtypes sound sleepy in voice and in text. Logical subtypes sound skeptical, attacking. Ethical ENFP sound like someone making a rapid talk as if they're on caffeine and they got a lot of emotion to give out - Intuitive ENFP is more mouse like and uses less words, more physically flirting with others.

I sound sleepy? If anything i thought i came across more "attacking". Meh who knows, i'm completely oblivious as to how I come across to others.

[xyz]

I sound sleepy? If anything i thought i came across more "attacking". Meh who knows, i'm completely oblivious as to how I come across to others.

And I thought *I* sounded sleepy? Meh either way a SLI is a SLI

[schrödinger's cat]

I'm ENFp-Ne, and my husband is ISTp-Si. My brother is ISTp-Te. We fit the subtype descriptions. If subtypes don't exist, this could be coincidental.

My brother and I didn't get along when we were teenagers. It took a while before that changed. Now we're fine. I'm sometimes still finding it difficult, though. My husband is calmer, and he tries to put people at ease and to be considerate and polite, so I find it easier to get along with him. But I wouldn't use this as a basis for saying anything about subtypes and duality. I mean, saying that my brother has sometimes been less than polite to me and that I get along better with the man I married = DUH, right?

Do people really think I'm a SEI type?

I mistyped my husband as an ISFp at first. Why ever did I do that? ... Partly because I started out with the MBTI. I thought he was a "Feeler", not a "Thinker", because he's aware of the consequences his actions have on other people, so he tries to be helpful and considerate. He's very friendly, in a calm sort of way. Compared to my brother, he's slower to get angry or irritable. I'd say he's less likely to let others know that he thinks they're idiots. (He'll still think it, but he'll just avoid interacting with them.)

As for "sleepy" vs "attacking"... Instead of "sleepy" I'd say calm, mellow, phlegmatic, taking the scenic route through life. "Attacking", no idea what that means. But my brother is a litle more vehement in what he's doing. There's more adrenaline there, and there are greater contrasts: If he's withdrawn into himself, that's more clearly visible, and there are greater visible differences between the times he's resting and the times he's active.

[jessica129]

As for "sleepy" vs "attacking"... Instead of "sleepy" I'd say calm, mellow, phlegmatic, taking the scenic route through life. "Attacking", no idea what that means. But my brother is a litle more vehement in what he's doing. There's more adrenaline there, and there are greater contrasts: If he's withdrawn into himself, that's more clearly visible, and there are greater visible differences between the times he's resting and the times he's active.

Yeah...calm is a better term. I can't tell you how many times I get told daily to "wakeup!" or "you're too calm...do you ever get upset?" "get excited!". It's kind of a very ....'meh' attitude towards everything. Meh.

[xyz]

Meh