Gender Influences and Differences

[Angel von Himmel]

Yeah, women are bitches, aren't they? It's tough out there with women. Men should only know! If you fail to follow the prescribed female pattern, it's women who'll get you for it, not men.

I think men stick it to each other too, though. I think men get hierarchical and physically fight and play sports for dominance and generally duke it out until one or a couple of them come out on top. Then they all get in line. Or something like that.

There is no preperscribed pattern for men as far as physical attraction goes ... and the hierarichal thing happens, but it is mostly caused from egotistical BSing. As far as women are concerned, I have seen some of the more prominent ones chase after guys who were more or less considered to be at the bottom of whatever hierachy exist. So, I do not think that it really matters all that much.

I do think the whole hierachal thing causes guys to get along better with each other, because they tend to work together even when they are competing. I can not really explain it otherwise.

Men have somewhat of a pack mentality. They need to know who the alpha is, often challanging eachother for the position. It seems there's been some of that going on around here lately... And it's not just the alpha position, it's all of them, the whole pecking order, if you will.

And while men struggle to be powerful, most women compete with eachother for power as well, but they do it by being with powerful men. It sickens me...

Those types of people are losers, male and female. The women are whores, and the men are knuckleheads. I avoid those types of people.

I have ran into those types of girls, too ... they bounce from guy to guy and pimp themselves out to whichever guy they think is worthwhile at the time. I keep running into them, and I hate it.

I tend to stick around people who work together; those people do not. Therefore, I do not stay around them.

[diamond]

How come this thread got moved, anyway?

[MysticSonic]

Because it was off-topic in relation to that forum's purpose?

[diamond]

Not that it matters or anything, but I don't really agree. If you look at the original question it's about how gender influences type expression.

No big deal, though.

[MysticSonic]

"Not that it matters or anything, but I don't really agree. If you look at the original question it's about how gender influences type expression. "

And that's relevant to the question of what a person's type is...how?

But you're right, it's not a big deal, though I appreciate hearing your opinion on whether or not something I did was justified or not.

[diamond]

Whoa, take a chill pill dude.

No harm meant . . . someone said you always seem angry, I guess I agree.

[MysticSonic]

I'm not always angry though, I just have a hard time coming across as NOT being angry. >.>

[Scrummy]

I'm not always angry though, I just have a hard time coming across as NOT being angry. >.>

Oh it's easier than it seems. To the left of the message field you'll find assorted emoticons (AKA, "smilies"). Use liberally. <- see?

[Topaz]

Anywho, since we are talking about gender, and fitting in with society, I would like to ask NTs, male and female to share their personal view of how they adapt to societies expectations. Im certain they handle it different from NFs. And any others NF, ST , SF (if there are any) please put in two cents as well. Mind you, dont talk about other people, or your family or spouse. Tell us about yourself. Just because we live in a T male , F female society does not mean that those who have that type have had it easy. What drawbacks have you encountered even if you seem to fit with certain behavioral expectations?

Topaz

[Joy]

That's cute, Baby. But I can't imagine that most INTjs feel comfortable with using smilies.

I think they're solomn and matter-of-fact and it comes across as angry to a lot of us. I used to ask my husband why he was cranky, what that look was for, why he's upset, etc, until I finally realized that his facial expressions and tone and choice of words do not correlate to emotions the way they would for most people. He has Asperger's Syndrome, too though.

[Joy]

Anywho, since we are talking about gender, and fitting in with society, I would like to ask NTs, male and female to share their personal view of how they adapt to societies expectations. Im certain they handle it different from NFs. And any others NF, ST , SF (if there are any) please put in two cents as well. Mind you, dont talk about other people, or your family or spouse. Tell us about yourself. Just because we live in a T male , F female society does not mean that those who have that type have had it easy. What drawbacks have you encountered even if you seem to fit with certain behavioral expectations?

Topaz

Well, as I mentioned before, most of the resistence I encounter just makes the whole thing more fun...

But I've found that the key with handling most people and most situations is to make sure that people know that you respect them. When I come across as "I do things differently and my way is better!", people tend to have a hard time with that. But when I come across as, "Your way is great, but mine works better for me, people are generally more apt to accept my differences. I've also found a sincere smile to be very disarming...

[Artemis]

That's cute, Baby. But I can't imagine that most INTjs feel comfortable with using smilies. I think they're solomn and matter-of-fact and it comes across as angry to a lot of us.

We need some with more subtle expressions. I can't truly express my sentiment with the ones we have.

[dudeins]

I'm a highly emotional person, but i've lived in a household with an ISTj (my dad) and i have learned thorough the years how to dampen my feelings. Its not necessarily a good thing, mainly because he's negative ALL the time. Since he's my father i have had to listen to him my whole life there are times where i give up in emotional situations. When i get into other situations that mirror experiences with my father i give up early, which really bothers me, but i feel there is no other option.

Sometimes i genuinely cannot understand how others act in emotional situations. That bugs me a lot. I don't think any less of them, its just difficult to see how they react or don't react. I wish that i was less emotional at times just to experience what it feels like to care less (no insult intended) because i care too much most of the time.

[diamond]

@MysticSonic:

Because it was off-topic in relation to that forum's purpose?

In this sentence, the question mark seems to indicate sarcasm.

But you're right, it's not a big deal, though I appreciate hearing your opinion on whether or not something I did was justified or not.

And this one seems sarcastic, too, since I don't think you really did appreciate my comment.

2 sarcastic statements=frustration or anger, but hey that's just my take on it.

Trying to be helpful.

[MysticSonic]

Neither were sarcastic.

Just because I disagree with your disagreement does not mean it does not have any value.

[diamond]

Anywho, since we are talking about gender, and fitting in with society, I would like to ask NTs, male and female to share their personal view of how they adapt to societies expectations. Im certain they handle it different from NFs. And any others NF, ST , SF (if there are any) please put in two cents as well. Mind you, dont talk about other people, or your family or spouse. Tell us about yourself. Just because we live in a T male , F female society does not mean that those who have that type have had it easy. What drawbacks have you encountered even if you seem to fit with certain behavioral expectations?

Topaz

Excellent question!!

The fact that entp's don't get relationships very well means that we are always putting our feet into our mouths, not reading the relationship well, and inadvertently offending people. I would not always be able to read relationships well. This is very anti-ideal female, since females are supposed to be good at relationships. Not to mention, entp's are thinkers and really not all that tuned in to people's feelings, either. So I felt like I didn't fit into society's expectations of females very well, I kind of internalized it and felt bad.

I am, however, good at reading people's reactions. So I could sort of pick up on when people were offended or when they didn't look happy or comfortable, which would usually be due to some sort of boundary-relationship issue.

So when I'd pick up on people's reactions, if they were negative, for a while I used to try to counteract this by acting overly friendly and doing things for people. This didn't really help that much because the problem was boundaries not how "nice" I was.

So then I moved into this feminist phase where I said well I'm just different from most women, and I don't have to live by these crazy expectations, so screw you. Although I felt better, this wasn't that productive a position to take.

Eventually I got to the point where I could see that improving my ability to accurately read relationships and developing some skills in knowing what to do about them was in my best interest, forget about social expectations. I started to pay more attention to this over the last 5 years and notice a difference, plus it feels better to be acting in one's interests rather than acting in accordance with society's expectations.

Hope that makes sense, especially since I've now gone and exposed my polr and all!

[diamond]

Neither were sarcastic.

Just because I disagree with your disagreement does not mean it does not have any value.

MS: did you REALLY appreciate my comment?

[diamond]

@Joy:

But I've found that the key with handling most people and most situations is to make sure that people know that you respect them. When I come across as "I do things differently and my way is better!", people tend to have a hard time with that. But when I come across as, "Your way is great, but mine works better for me, people are generally more apt to accept my differences. I've also found a sincere smile to be very disarming...

Not to harp on this or anything, but this just sounds very enfp to me. Very political. Very tuned in.

[diamond]

I'm a highly emotional person, but i've lived in a household with an ISTj (my dad) and i have learned thorough the years how to dampen my feelings. Its not necessarily a good thing, mainly because he's negative ALL the time. Since he's my father i have had to listen to him my whole life there are times where i give up in emotional situations. When i get into other situations that mirror experiences with my father i give up early, which really bothers me, but i feel there is no other option.

Sometimes i genuinely cannot understand how others act in emotional situations. That bugs me a lot. I don't think any less of them, its just difficult to see how they react or don't react. I wish that i was less emotional at times just to experience what it feels like to care less (no insult intended) because i care too much most of the time.

Wow, I guess that's the down side of Fe, huh? I always wish I had more Fe, if it's any consolation! Don't feel too bad, though, I love esfj's!! I just have the best time with the ones that I know!

Semi-duality relations, like the one you have with your dad, are supposed to be pretty good. Sounds like you have to keep your emotions too much under wraps with him, though.

My husband is estp and my daughter esfj, so she's his beneficiary. He gets really angry with her when he feels she is whining or not being tough enough. I had to teach her how to ride her bike because he got way too furious with her fears. It was a strange thing - my husband is hardly ever like that. Estp and istj are mirrors - I wonder if your dad has beliefs about toughness or something.

[MysticSonic]

"MS: did you REALLY appreciate my comment?"

Not your comment, but your willingness to disagree with me; if no one does that, then how am I ever going to be fairer in my judgements?

I expected you to continue to disagree with me after that, which may have ended up with you showing me where I erred.

It's not like I have a large reponsibillity on my shoulders, but it does help things run more smoothly on here none-the-less.

[dudeins]

My dad had a really difficult up bringing. His dad was abusive so he's not big on showing or expressing any emotions in the first place. He likes everything to be orderly and neutral, i'm quite the opposite. I enjoy my living space and personal things to be where i want them, not where someone else tells me to put them. The only way he knows to deal with my emotions is to ignore me. So most of the time i try not to be emotional because at least then he'll say something to me. Otherwise he ignores me and puts me down (i get excited about silly things) and he takes that as me not being as intelligent. I'm not saying that all ISTjs are like that, but my dad embodies this attitude toward me.

[diamond]

I'm sorry he puts you down, that sucks.

You know what though? That's his problem, not yours! He can't handle you!

[dudeins]

Yeah that's my idea too. But its hard to think like that when its your dad. I love him anyway. We just have different personalities. That's why i'm here, to understand other people/myself better!!

[Rocky]

My dad had a really difficult up bringing. His dad was abusive so he's not big on showing or expressing any emotions in the first place... The only way he knows to deal with my emotions is to ignore me. So most of the time i try not to be emotional because at least then he'll say something to me. Otherwise he ignores me and puts me down (i get excited about silly things) and he takes that as me not being as intelligent. I'm not saying that all ISTjs are like that, but my dad embodies this attitude toward me.

Actually, tha sounds more like an ESFj-ISTp (ESE-SLI) relationship.

[diamond]

"MS: did you REALLY appreciate my comment?"

Not your comment, but your willingness to disagree with me; if no one does that, then how am I ever going to be fairer in my judgements?

I expected you to continue to disagree with me after that, which may have ended up with you showing me where I erred.

It's not like I have a large reponsibillity on my shoulders, but it does help things run more smoothly on here none-the-less.

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but you are SUCH an intj. My intj brother would say something exactly like this. But it get so tiring!!

[diamond]

Yeah that's my idea too. But its hard to think like that when its your dad. I love him anyway. We just have different personalities. That's why i'm here, to understand other people/myself better!!

Yeah, with family especially parents it's harder. I just meant don't feel too bad; don't take it on to be your issue. It's great that you want to understand him and others better, too. That's why this forum is so great, huh?

[Artemis]

My dad is an extreme opinionated prick prone to steam blowing out his ears and occasional violence when we didn't do things his way or if we ever disagreed. Now that's he's older he just gives looks of disgust or disinterest if he disagrees with your opinon . . . even after his asking you a question. I just stop in mid-sentence. This usually produces some sly look from him. I really don't want to type him as I'm afraid I'll understand him and make excuses for him. I'd just rather pretend he doesn't exist as I don't see him with any regularity.

My mother retaliates for years of mental and sometimes physical abuse by bad mouthing him under her breath now that he is older and in bad health. I can't type her either as I feel I can't see the person underneath all she has had to be all these long years.

[Topaz]

Hope that makes sense, especially since I've now gone and exposed my polr and all!

Thanks Blaze. This makes alot of sense. I came to a similar conclusion. I appreciate how you were able to look at the situation objectively and come to a conclusion that really is a win/win. Im certain that society doesnt need a bunch of stereo types running around nor does it need a bunch of shocking rebels. We all do ourselves a favor when we accept who we are to ourselves but dont take ourselves so serious that we become rigid and inflexible. If we do that we loose our conection with others who dont see things the way we do. Then they dont get the benefit of our contributions.
When we make room for others our differences are seen as refreshing and not as repulsive. This lets us have more freedom when dealing with others.
When I started to learn about type I began to realize that everyone has all the functions to a greater or lesser degree. I started to think of how I could honor my weaker preferences instead of ignoring them. For example instead of being extraverted all the time because thats what Ive always done and it seems expected I would lay back and not talk for awhile. Instead of being accomodating all the time I decided to assert my own needs more. After all, I accepted these traits in others so why not myself? I guess my goal to keep maturing in the way I see the world. Uh oh I think Im starting to sound kinda preachy


Topaz

[Joy]

Yeah that's my idea too. But its hard to think like that when its your dad. I love him anyway. We just have different personalities. That's why i'm here, to understand other people/myself better!!

You're a lot more mature and healthy than he is. You're growing a lot from your situation, yet he is stagnant. Perhaps he is insecure?

[Joy]

Yeah that's my idea too. But its hard to think like that when its your dad. I love him anyway. We just have different personalities. That's why i'm here, to understand other people/myself better!!

You're a lot more mature and healthy than he is. You're growing a lot from your situation, yet he is stagnant. Perhaps he is insecure?

oops, that was me

[XcaliburGirl]

Hmm...
Some thoughts on this topic from a LII female:

I've always felt a bit out of sync with how females are "supposed" to be. Little stupid shallow things that mostly bug the F and S females I know, e.g. I hate shopping *yawn*, I won't wear make-up(it's dishonest and bothersome) and generally don't care overly much about how I look (at least not enough to spend time, energy, or money on it), I don't "gab" or gossip, and I tend to despise those who do these things (or if not the people, at least their tendancies to do that stuff). It used to bother me to be around petite, girly girls because it made me feel unfeminine. (That probably has something to do with height and build also, but I think my LII tendancies definitely exacerbated it.) I'm more comfortable with myself now, though.

Like Blaze said, bad at relationships. Starting, developing, you name it. (incl. friendships) Also, it's been an uphill battle with general social interactions. I still hate parties...anyone for Scrabble? Please!?

Oh, here's another issue: kids. I really don't hit it off with little kids. Generally, I like to start philosophizing at babies (animals too), using big words...it's better than babytalk (hate that). I'm the eldest of 5 children, so people expect me to be good with kids. I'm good at supervising them, scolding them, explaining things to them, but I don't really like them (in a general sense, I like individual ones, like my sisters or cousins.)

I used to feel like I was some freak of nature... shy would be okay if I was sweet, but I'm not usually sweet; cold would be okay if I was edgy, but I'm not really edgy at all; logical would be okay if--well, I guess that's the "problem".

I don't really mind all this though. There are lots of negatives to the feminine stereotype that I naturally avoid. The great thing about Socionics is now when my cousin complains (in essence) that I'm always too pedantic, or my mother rolls her eyes at my going out in public wearing shorts when I haven't shaved my legs in weeks, I know why I'm like this and it doesn't really bother me.

[Megan]

deleted.

[Joy]

Very astute observation... I've always liked being short. Now it makes more sense! I generally just thought, "It's distinctive. Who would have a hard time remembering a 5'0" girl with red hair and a name like Joy?" But what your saying makes A LOT of sense. I may not like being thought of as cute as much as I like being thought of as competent, but it makes sense that I get a better response from people than I would if I was 5'11".

[indigoroom]

I think that's a wave of new way of thinking which will spread slowly.. I've already converted my friends.

[Joy]

I think that's a wave of new way of thinking which will spread slowly.. I've already converted my friends.

That short people are awsome?

[indigoroom]

yeah

[Angel von Himmel]

Tall people are awesome, too ... except that I know this one tall 6 foot couple of inches guy that has to duck because he can not fit under the standard size doors and there are times he forgets and bumps his head. That would suck; sometimes it is an advantage to be tiny.

[diamond]

If you're tall, act like a runway model all the time.

Wrong gender, but kind of like the runway competition scene in Zoolander! Hah!

This thread has gotten so many great ideas going! Excaliburgirl, I've thought about gender stuff and myself almost the exact same way as what you said!! We really must be mirrors, no? It's great that you're looking at the upside of your intj characteristics. The gender thing challenges us in doing this.

Plus, hello, the children and females thing. Huge issue. You're female, you're supposed to be great with kids and love them. You find you don't. WTF???? That's why I didn't have children till my 30's . . . I kind of had to sort this whole thing out and make a committment I was ready for.

Here's a new one: my look alike husband and I had this very 50-50 feel to our relationships as far back as I can remember. We split everything we made all these joint decisions, we both had careers yada yada yada. Now we have kids and we both work full time and guess what we are both so tired that no one wants to do family strategic planning or take steps to enhance our social life and family relationships. Guess who doesn't give a rats ass? You got it my husband. So guess who is going to have to make time and energy for these things (which make life living BTW)? You got it, me. Here I am again having to do female stuff that doesn't come naturally. Even from my 50-50, housework-doing, child-taking-care-of, lookalike husband!!!!

[Artemis]

Tall and short are relative to everyone else in your life or to your surroundings. Cone is 6'1" and I can't stand having to look up at him. I feel sorry for him when he has to bend down to hug someone. He is tall and I am the perfect height.

It must be a bitch dating when there are large difference in heights. My husband is just two inches taller than me and it's perfect. I love it.

[MysticSonic]

Being 5'4 sucks. I'm shorter than most of the freshmen.