LII-ESE Duality Relations: discussion, examples (INTj and ESFj)

[mymycutiepie]

I met an INTJ last year in school. I myself am an ESFJ. He was very cold to me at first, but eventually, I got him talking. We had a love/hate relationship, because we were continually "arguing" though in a very friendly manner. Most people at the end of last year asked us if we had feelings for each other. We both denied it, but I realized that I did have feelings for him. He had feelings for me earlier in the year, but in his exact words... " the severity of it had worn off and now it has passed into the friendship stage.." he didn't want to start a relationship because he didn't want to ruin our friendship. However, this year, he is still meaner to me than to anyone else, (which everyone says is his way of flirting with me, though I don't see it, because he said we were only friends.) I finally wrote him a letter, telling him that I did have feelings for him, and it was ok if he didn't feel the same way, as long as we could be friends and he wouldn't be so mean to me. I thought he would completely ignore me, but he surprised me and approached me about it. He found my note interesting, and said not to take it personal, but that he was not good with relationships. Then he did something completely uncharacteristic and put his arm around my shoulders, and said "we are friends...and I will make an effort to be nicer to you." He has done so. It's just... I still have strong feelings for him, and I don't know if that was a complete " I don't like you" or if it was more an " I'm really not good with relationships." but he still has feelings for me... If any INTJ or anybody else like to comment or give me advice it would be much appreciated!!! I need to know what to do next.

[Joy]

Do any of you INTjs think it's possible that that was his was of saying that he didn't know how to initiate anything more?

[cjcoldmine]

Joy, I think your guess is accurate.

[Joy]

INTjs just don't seem to relate to others well. They seem to not have much interest in most people, and when there is a person they're very interested in, taking those first several dozen steps in the relationship most likely won't come naturally.

If this INTj guy was willing to tell her his feelings in the past (and she must have been something to catch his attention!) when he most likely knew that she wasn't interested in him like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that it would be just as easy for him this time because he knows that something will come of it and for him perhaps starting a relationship is like a diving board to a person who doesn't know how to swim...

Has this guy ever been in a relationship before?

[Joy]

BTW, the fact that he touched her... I do not touch people who I am rejecting, even if it is a friend.

[MySaviour]

I wrote this, once.. and it wasn't so long ago:

I am in love. Her name is M. A bitch. But that's what I say. Her memory lingers. I miss her to this day. She is right there, ready to listen. But its been too long, my words can never again be heard. I suppose I should have spoken, so often I dodged the truth. I suppose I had to have the character , long gone, its existence set to mute. I should've shown the courage, happiness against fear. A promise. I should have known. Where is my life now but in a sinking fate? What of my destiny, will it relax and let me set my own sail? Rigid, the walls, they tighten. Closing in, my bite residing. I'm losing time, on the second day.. Over. This is frightened, very scared. What the fuck do I do? Where are my fucking words?... They come and flow frequently, but when called to battle they run back, scared. I am so betrayed. Stream of conscience is screaming, out of my mind and on to the page. There is a forgotten memory, once a dream, that has my name.

*eh hum*

Call me weird, but that about says it all.. IMO.

[xiuxiu]

i am an intj guy, and was in a relationship with an esfj girl for nearly 9 months. we broke up because of other circumstances, though not necessarily because we were having major difficulties getting along. what you described sounds almost nothing like my relationship, or even other relationships with different esfj's throughout high school.

my guess is that

a) one of you is not the personality type you think you are
b) he is not physically attracted to you
c) he thinks, for one reason or another, there is no way a relationship between you could work. yes, intj's are less than stellar in relationships, but we are more than willing to work at them, especially if we like the person we are with. on the flipside, we are intelligent enough to know when things just aren't going to work out, in which case you are fucked and would do well to just move on.

[Creepy-]

Joy,
Yes he was in a relationship before. He hasn't had one for a year and a half though, and after he told me that, that's when he said he wasn't good with relationships. He said he doesn't trust people or let them get close to him. I suppose I just don't want to let it go, because I feel drawn to him, like there is some connection I can't explain. Sometimes, weird things happen: Like we'll just be fooling around, and he'll grab my hand, and keep it in his grasp for 5 seconds, and then let it go.... Like the whole moment stands still type of thing... Forgive me, I'm a hopeless romantic. :wink: I just thought I felt something there, which is the reason I have been so persistant.

Thank you everyone for your replies.

[Joy]

I suppose I just don't want to let it go, because I feel drawn to him, like there is some connection I can't explain.

That's exactly how I felt about my INTj! He was in the group of people who I had been hanging around with (my brother and sister's friends), and I found that I was hanging out with them even more than I would have usually and realized it was because I enjoyed being around him. He didn't think too highly of me at the time. It was the worst and most aimless time in my life for me and I was drinking WAY too much. I was testing my powers at the time to, and finding that most men would do anything if I only told them to. I never tried that kind of stuff with him... I knew it wouldn't fly.

Here was this guy who had absolutely no interest in my whatsoever. I could hang out with him all day every day and even sleep next to him and he would never even be attracted to me. He was safe.

I somehow all of a sudden "just knew" that we shuld be together. My best friend at the time thought I was crazy. I told Josh how I felt and asked him if he wanted to be with me. (This, BTW, was a BIG question. My sister and I have this pact where if one of us dates a guy he is off limits to the other one permanently! He had been in love with my sister for a couple of years at that point, and he was quite aware that deciding to date me meant that he could never be with my sister.) He said he didn't know.

Now, I wasn't a very patient person when it came to dating. Most of the time if I didn't get the response I was looking for I would decide the guy was more effort than he was worth and move on to the next guy. For some reason I knew that this guy was worth practicing the lost art of patience. It took a couple of weeks and a near death experiance, but he decided to be with me.

And the point of all this is... I don't remember... mymycutiepie, it definitely sounds like he at least wants you to like him. I don't think and INTj would put forth the effort to hold the interest of someone that he isn't at all interested in.

How serious was this other relationship? How old was he (if you don't mind sharing that information)? Who initiated the relationship? My INTj had had a few girlfriends before me, but they were all sorta crazy... the type that just decides, "You're with me now" and he just went along with it until they started demanding too much or lost interest. Sorta like they wanted a pet.

If I were you, based on the information at hand, I would say to make sure he knows that you totally accept him for who he is, faults and all, that you don't mind taking things slowly, that you enjoy the time you spend with him, that you'll still be interested in being friends with him even if he doesn't "like" you, and that he is the most interesting person you know. Make sure he knows that you find his differences from most people to be refreshing, and that you feel a certain connection with him.

If those feelings are there (and it sounds like they are), then he's probably worried that you'll lose interest once you see what he's like (or not like) in a relationship. Remember, the first several dozen steps in a relationship don't come naturally to INTjs...

Also, I found it very strange that my INTj was so affectionate once we were together. He says so much more by putting his hand on mine than he ever has with his words. If it seems like body language and touch are an easier form of communication for him, perhaps slowly easing your way into affectionate communication through touch and body language would be most comfortable for him? Watch for cues, either saying "come closer" or "whoa! too close!".

[Joy]

There are times for both words and affection. I try with words, however, when it comes to saying "I like(+) you" for the first time, the best solution I've come up with is simply grabbing their hand.

[diamond]

OR "he's just not that into you"?

Or not.

intj intscmay.

what's with youse guys? how come you can't just say what's on your mind? estj has to be one of the easiest types of people to connect with . . .

[XcaliburGirl]

OR "he's just not that into you"?

Or not.

intj intscmay.

what's with youse guys? how come you can't just say what's on your mind? estj has to be one of the easiest types of people to connect with . . .

Well, that's the eternal question...I haven't a clue, though I've spent plenty of time arguing with myself about it. Seems like the rational thing to do... be frank and forget all the stupid games, but I guess I'm never sure enough of my own feelings* to put myself out there.

*Okay, at the risk of sounding completely cold, also, I'm never sure enough of the other person's "worthiness". Why I can't save such decisions for later on, I'm not sure. But sometimes I fall for someone I don't entirely "approve" of, and then I'm stuck with that civil war inside my head also.

(BTW, Blaze, did you mean ESFj instead of ESTj?)

[mymycutiepie]

Joy,

We are both 17 (young I know, but whatever). I don't know much about his last girlfriend because he was only in my school this year and last year. I figured that he must care for me a little, otherwise he could have just completely ignored me and not even bothered to discuss it with me. It was extremely strange, considering my INTj always has something to say, and when it came to trying to discuss his feelings, he had nothing to say. It was cute. lol I'm just afraid to be too forward with him, because I'm more the type a person to let the other make the first move. I don't want to completely freak him out... But, I guess the next time I take his arm to walk with him, I'll grab his hand instead and see what happens.

[snowyc]

My advice is to try and understand his Place of Least Resistance (Shyness): Extroverted Sensing (Se). I would describe it simply as the INTj's shy spot for hedonism as opposed to being ascetic i.e. a shyness towards sensual pleasures.

[MySaviour]

I wrote this, once.. and it wasn't so long ago:

I am in love. Her name is M. A bitch. But that's what I say. Her memory lingers. I miss her to this day. She is right there, ready to listen. But its been too long, my words can never again be heard. I suppose I should have spoken, so often I dodged the truth. I suppose I had to have the character , long gone, its existence set to mute. I should've shown the courage, happiness against fear. A promise. I should have known. Where is my life now but in a sinking fate? What of my destiny, will it relax and let me set my own sail? Rigid, the walls, they tighten. Closing in, my bite residing. I'm losing time, on the second day.. Over. This is frightened, very scared. What the fuck do I do? Where are my fucking words?... They come and flow frequently, but when called to battle they run back, scared. I am so betrayed. Stream of conscience is screaming, out of my mind and on to the page. There is a forgotten memory, once a dream, that has my name.

*eh hum*

Call me weird, but that about says it all.. IMO.

Could it have been different had she been aware? I'm just asking because I could very well be her to someone I love...

Huh? She used to be the one that would chase me around.. but she screwed around so much, I could never figure out if she was serious, or using my responses solely for the amusement of herself and her friends. So I didn't put myself out there, for fear of making the musings increase exponentially. I wouldn't have been a big fan of being the butt of many jokes, especially given my character (which is not a front, contrary to popular opinion).

[Joy]

mymycutiepie, read some of the other threads about INTjs... the fact that he's been willing to go as far as he has in this friendship means you must be very important to him. That's just my opinion... my INTj fell for the first girl who wanted to get to know him and not just laugh at his party tricks. He also had somewhat of a sensitve spot for her because he could see how vunerable she was (that's what ended up getting me and him together... he saw me have a nervous breakdown of sorts!).

And also... are you sure he's an INTj? I think your plan is a good one regardless, as long as you can pull it off without tension...

[mymycutiepie]

He has never taken the test, but there is no way he is anything other than an INTJ. I knew it from the first time I met him.

[MySaviour]

MySaviour, what image do you believe you have? You describe yourself as being somewhat notorious, and you are protective of your reputation.

"Cold, emotionally detached smart guy."

[Typeless Wonder]

I believe the INTJ deep-down wants the relationship, but he is too afraid of being burned so he has numbed his feelings and decided it's better to be a mere friend. The fact that he keeps saying that he's bad in relationships points to a fear of intimacy. He wants it, but he's afraid of it.

[Joy]

you guys do realize that sometimes intjs just don't care right? deep down inside there is not necessarily fluffy lovey-dovey goo

LOL, that is sooooo true. Still... I just have this feeling that if this guy wasn't at all interested, then he wouldn't humor her like like she's describing. I do not think an INTj would see a point in that.

[snowyc]

Precisely, I don't know if it's maturity or prolonged celibacy but either way, yes, i wan't a relationship but i don't see myself getting all gushy in lurve as it were. I think i maintain the logical outlook in lurve that i'm a guy, your a girl, er.. we have roles to fulfill.... er... now what.... life does not compute.... 0001... 101010....101010...System CRASH............................

[Joy]

hehehe good point! INTjs do not like things that they cannot make total sense of. And when do relatiohsips ever totally make sense?

[diamond]

OR "he's just not that into you"?

Or not.

intj intscmay.

what's with youse guys? how come you can't just say what's on your mind? estj has to be one of the easiest types of people to connect with . . .

Well, that's the eternal question...I haven't a clue, though I've spent plenty of time arguing with myself about it. Seems like the rational thing to do... be frank and forget all the stupid games, but I guess I'm never sure enough of my own feelings* to put myself out there.

*Okay, at the risk of sounding completely cold, also, I'm never sure enough of the other person's "worthiness". Why I can't save such decisions for later on, I'm not sure. But sometimes I fall for someone I don't entirely "approve" of, and then I'm stuck with that civil war inside my head also.

(BTW, Blaze, did you mean ESFj instead of ESTj?)

Yes I did mean esfj.

The worthiness factor rings true, too. What constitutes worthiness?

Yet I can relate a little in that I usually will only be friends or spend time talking with people who I think can add something different, something off the beaten trail. Also who are willing to listen to my crazy ideas and theories and who laugh at my jokes. I don't usually spend a lot of time on people who are in the mainstream of things. Don't know why exactly.

[Joy]

Yet I can relate a little in that I usually will only be friends or spend time talking with people who I think can add something different, something off the beaten trail. I don't usually spend a lot of time on people who are in the mainstream of things. Don't know why exactly.

Most people are just too boring. And besides, there are so many of them. I could talk to a normal person any time I want. It's the interesting ones that I value because they're just harder to come by. It also seems that normal people are just too into things that we don't care as much about, but that may be an N/S difference (I don't know... aren't there like, 3 times as many S's than N's?).

[Cone]

Most people are just too boring. And besides, there are so many of them. I could talk to a normal person any time I want. It's the interesting ones that I value because they're just harder to come by. It also seems that normal people are just too into things that we don't care as much about, but that may be an N/S difference (I don't know... aren't there like, 3 times as many S's than N's?).

Interesting people are just boring people caught off-guard.

Just my opinion, by the way.

[Kim]

Most people are just too boring. And besides, there are so many of them. I could talk to a normal person any time I want. It's the interesting ones that I value because they're just harder to come by. It also seems that normal people are just too into things that we don't care as much about, but that may be an N/S difference (I don't know... aren't there like, 3 times as many S's than N's?).

Interesting people are just boring people caught off-guard.

Just my opinion, by the way.

I will admit that I'm always a bit suspicious of people who declare themselves interesting :wink: And frankly, I don't think being interesting come with type.

Congratulations on post 1000, Cone!

[XcaliburGirl]

Interesting people are just boring people caught off-guard.

Yes, but you must admit that some people get caught off-guard more than others. :wink:

The worthiness factor rings true, too. What constitutes worthiness?
Yet I can relate a little in that I usually will only be friends or spend time talking with people who I think can add something different, something off the beaten trail. Also who are willing to listen to my crazy ideas and theories and who laugh at my jokes. I don't usually spend a lot of time on people who are in the mainstream of things. Don't know why exactly.

By worthiness I mean that I have to find him interesting, personalities need to click, intelligence, moral values, etc.

Precisely, I don't know if it's maturity or prolonged celibacy but either way, yes, i wan't a relationship but i don't see myself getting all gushy in lurve as it were. I think i maintain the logical outlook in lurve that i'm a guy, your a girl, er.. we have roles to fulfill.... er... now what.... life does not compute.... 0001... 101010....101010...System CRASH............................

hehehe good point! INTjs do not like things that they cannot make total sense of. And when do relatiohsips ever totally make sense?

Oh yeah. I have one philosophy that I will defend no matter what: Everything should make sense!

I've pretty much given up on the emotional/"spiritual" aspects of this whole "falling in love" idea. I think the only way to go about it is to find someone I approve of rationally, tell him I am interested in him, and then (contingent upon a positive response to the previous) proceed to fall in love with him and get all gushy and such, since my logical parameters would be satisfied and I can quit analyzing the person. Barring the aforementioned positive response, I would still be saved any emotional disappointment and free to look for other prospects.

[Joy]

LOL, no one can know if they're interesting much less decide that they're interesting! No, it has nothing to do with how they try to appear. And while interesting situation can follow when people are caught off gaurd, that is not my difinition of an interesting person.

Interesting people are people who make me think. They are people who have a unique perspective which I do not understand. They are people who intrigue or amuse me. Most people get boring pretty quickly though.

My INTj is forever interesting, and it's certainly not entirely because he's an INTj...

[Joy]

i shot her down. why? doing the opposite would have gone against my values. it made her cry. it made me feel bad. when girls emote at me i tend to enjoy it especially if it is coy

You enjoy what?

but exxps seem to come in like emotional conquerors which just makes me want to shoot them down because they presume too much (the kind of girl that just assumes she can make you like her)

It works much more often than not!

It worked with my Intj, though he didn't know it... he didn't like my attitude but then he saw me have a nervous breakdown and realized that I was a lot more vunerable than I appreared. Plus I started easing up on the alcohol at about that time, so he was able to see the more rational and laid back side of me (I get waaaayyyyyyyy too much energy when I drink!). My point is that in his mind he was changing his opinion of me based on new knowledge. In my mind I had finally beaten the most worthy conquest I could find. Mwahhhahahahhahahah.

[Cone]

once upon a time there was an isfp girl who asked me out. for various reasons i saw that it would not be wise to do this even though i a) enjoyed said isfp b) was attracted to said isfp c) had the advantage of her approaching me for said date (i was unaware of how she felt)

i shot her down. why? doing the opposite would have gone against my values. it made her cry. it made me feel bad. when girls emote at me i tend to enjoy it especially if it is coy but exxps seem to come in like emotional conquerors which just makes me want to shoot them down because they presume too much (the kind of girl that just assumes she can make you like her)

Ok, now that's about as arrogant as you can get.

[Kim]

i tend to enjoy it especially if it is coy but exxps seem to come in like emotional conquerors which just makes me want to shoot them down because they presume too much (the kind of girl that just assumes she can make you like her)

Is it really because you assume that they assume or is it because the emotions are just too much for you to handle in the moment (in which case you really can't blame it on the person who just happens to display emotions, but might not be aware of the effect it has on you)? A woman who is coy and shy is less of an emotional threat perhaps? I'm just wondering. ´

In my mind I had finally beaten the most worthy conquest I could find. Mwahhhahahahhahahah.

This also sounds somewhat clinical to me. :wink:

Doesn't anyone here ever fall in love?? Sleepless nights?? Butterflies when there is an e-mail in your inbox?? Head over heels I LOVE this person???

Is it just me?? :wink:

[Cone]

Doesn't anyone here ever fall in love?? Sleepless nights?? Butterflies when there is an e-mail in your inbox?? Head over heels I LOVE this person???

I do, er, I would if I ever had the chance to fall in love.

[MySaviour]

i tend to enjoy it especially if it is coy but exxps seem to come in like emotional conquerors which just makes me want to shoot them down because they presume too much (the kind of girl that just assumes she can make you like her)

Is it really because you assume that they assume or is it because the emotions are just too much for you to handle in the moment (in which case you really can't blame it on the person who just happens to display emotions, but might not be aware of the effect it has on you)? A woman who is coy and shy is less of an emotional threat perhaps? I'm just wondering. ´

In my mind I had finally beaten the most worthy conquest I could find. Mwahhhahahahhahahah.

This also sounds somewhat clinical to me. :wink:

Doesn't anyone here ever fall in love?? Sleepless nights?? Butterflies when there is an e-mail in your inbox?? Head over heels I LOVE this person???

Is it just me?? :wink:

On the grounds that only sociopaths are without emotions, I have questions: How do you handle your emotions? Do you handle your emotions? How would define the "handling" of an emotion? When the emotions come, do they run the show? Can you look past them? Do you suppress your emotions? If you maintain your composure when being imbibed with emotion, how are you not emulating us? If you're not emulating, what is the difference? When you lose control as a result of being overcome with emotions, how does it differ from us freaking out? Is yours just expected? Are you already simply written off as an emotional person? Is it timing, is it more appropriate? Are you just always caught up in a continual outburst that their isn't a composed state to compare it to? Are you better off letting your emotions rule you? Is it any better knowing when to put emotions aside? Can you always put them aside? Have you ever put them aside? How often are you logical? How often do you confuse logic with emotional reasoning? Do you allow yourself to believe that because you someday sort through your feelings to make space for more that you are logical, that you have used logic? How do you expect someone to just let the emotions come? How about if they aren't there? What if when you see them, they exist, and when you don't they are no longer seen? What if one emotion bleeds out once, and then never again? What if what we think of emotion is the same as what you think of logic? What if we try to look past emotion to see the logical progressors of a situation? What if you try to look past the logical moves in a situation to see what your feelings tell you? Do you not only wish you could wield logic when it is wielding against you? Is that anything more than self defense? Do you want to become logical? Would you ever be able to? What happens when someone says that they don't understand why you did an absolutely stupid thing when every reasonable option suggested otherwise? What is the point of repeating a procedure that has never, isn't, and in all likelyhood never will work? Is that logical? What if I asked the right question? Where would you set yourself? Would you be satisfied knowing that things are what they are? Do you have that belief? What if you really understood what I was saying? What if its a big fucking paradox? What really matters?

Me first, or you?

Who listens to who?

Who is listening?

Who hears?

Why?

[MySaviour]

i shot her down. why? doing the opposite would have gone against my values. it made her cry. it made me feel bad. when girls emote at me i tend to enjoy it especially if it is coy

You enjoy what?

but exxps seem to come in like emotional conquerors which just makes me want to shoot them down because they presume too much (the kind of girl that just assumes she can make you like her)

It works much more often than not!

It worked with my Intj, though he didn't know it... he didn't like my attitude but then he saw me have a nervous breakdown and realized that I was a lot more vunerable than I appreared. Plus I started easing up on the alcohol at about that time, so he was able to see the more rational and laid back side of me (I get waaaayyyyyyyy too much energy when I drink!). My point is that in his mind he was changing his opinion of me based on new knowledge. In my mind I had finally beaten the most worthy conquest I could find. Mwahhhahahahhahahah.

This annoys me. Heh. I can just see how stubborn I would get if someone told me that. "Oh, we'll just see about that, now won't we?" Heh. Heh. Heh.

[XcaliburGirl]

Is this what you would like to do or what you will do? Meaning, CAN you do that? Let the emotions and feelings in and out as you wish?

Doesn't anyone here ever fall in love?? Sleepless nights?? Butterflies when there is an e-mail in your inbox?? Head over heels I LOVE this person???

Is it just me?? :wink:

Yes and no. I fall in love... but usually it's for men I don't "approve" of (i.e. wouldn't work out, see prev post). I have trouble controlling it and it turns into a big depressing ordeal (usually unbeknownst to the other person). Right now I've got my eye on an ESFj who I am not in love with and I can't for the life of me figure out why. So, I'm going to try my plan. Right now I'm waiting to get to know him a little bit better to make sure I have no glaring objections. Will I be able to stay in this emotionally neutral state? I don't know.

I saw the following happen in an INTj:
a) Very interested from a distance: Considers other person a great match in terms of intelligence, humor, values, life-style
b) Very interested at first meeting, confirms above approval
c) And now the thought process sets in: Relationship means intimacy, change of life-style (somewhat), emotions that he fear he cannot deal with.
d) Wants to be friends, but cannot see romance. Yet, makes great efforts to stay close, but from a distance. In conclusion: Gets what he needs without the intimacy and emotions he fears.

I don't know about this fear of intimacy you folks keep talking about. Other INTjs comment, please? With me it's more not knowing how to get to intimacy... or at most, fear of making a move towards intimacy and then being rejected. I like intimacy, it's honest (or should be).

I'm outlining this because I wonder what you guys actually do with your emotions. From what this guy said, there are there, but he keeps them well locked up as to not have to deal with them. Is that the case with you, too? Can you really get past the approval stage you mention above without emotional involvement? I guess I'm just trying to understand an INTj's approach to emotional romantic attachment.

Generally, I don't so much keep them locked up as I analyze them to death. Sometimes, if I let myself, I can reason myself out of love or other emotions. Also, my emotions can be changed in the right environment or with the right people; I've learned to recognize that and seek those conditions out to put myself in a better mood.

I have an INTj friend who is in a relationship with an ESFj and very much in love and touchy feely (not in public, only with very close friends). He does not seem emotionally detached at all (duality?).

Not necessarily duality. Like I said, I do fall in love, if my reason and emotions aren't conflicting and I'm comfortable with the people I'm with, I don't have so much of a problem expressing it.

And if I may: What do other people's emotions do to you? Say if you noticed that someone was really really interested in you and confronts you with lovey dovey emotions?

Umm... that's never happened to me.
With friends and relatives, I kind of feel awkward, especially if there's hugging involved, but I've gotten better about it as I've gotten older.

Heh. I can just see how stubborn I would get if someone told me that. "Oh, we'll just see about that, now won't we?" Heh. Heh. Heh.

yes!

That's how I react when my mother (or friend, or friend's mother, or aunt, or any other female aquaintence so it seems) tries to set me up with someone. Finally I just told her: "I am detirmined not to marry anyone you set me up with!" Not that I mind being introduced to eligible bachlors, but she shouldn't tell me about it or make what she's trying to do obvious.

[diamond]

Excaliburgirl, what are some reasons you do not approve of certain people?

What attracts you to people you do not approve of?

Is it not knowing how to become intimate or having difficulty with maintaining intimacy that is more difficult?

Sorry for the twenty questions, I just think you could be onto something here.

[XcaliburGirl]

Excaliburgirl, what are some reasons you do not approve of certain people?

What attracts you to people you do not approve of?

Is it not knowing how to become intimate or having difficulty with maintaining intimacy that is more difficult?

Sorry for the twenty questions, I just think you could be onto something here.

Well, it's just a compatability issue.

For example, I was attracted to an ESTp I know. He was hot and charming and exciting, but when I was honest with myself I knew that our values and interests were too different (he's interested in drinking, sex, and racing ) and I would not have been able to put up with his Se trips for long.

On intimacy, it's hard for me to say, since I haven't been in a "real" relationship. I would expect it's the initiating intimacy that's the hard part. Though while maintaining it, the other person would have to understand that sometimes I clam up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that things have changed.

[Kim]

it's not about the emotional manipulation really it's about the presumption that i will like them. something about that seems gross and crude. mmm i realize what it is but i won't share it. it is not characteristic of intjs in general anyway except in form

also i think i should point out that you are trying too hard to make me interested in enfps romantically and you are distorting my perception of them for that end. that would be like me telling you that you are trying to alleviate your own misgivings about your relationship with your own intj by proxy. it's not an accurate portrayal, you see? please stop distorting me

All I'm saying is that you see a presumption where they might not be one. As for the second paragraph, you are giving me too much credit. I don't think anyone should be romantically interested in a type, in fact. I'm commenting on generalizaton you make about my type. Not to convince you to seek them out, but to point out that your generalization might not be all that justified. I don't want people to think that certain types run around manipulating people in a desperate attempt to make the person like them.

[Joy]

Wow, there are a lot of good ideas being tossed around here. I think the whole aversion to touch issue deserves it's own thread, which I'll get at in a minute... More importantly, there seems to be a debate about emtions between the Fs and the Ts.

I can speak a little bit for both sides because I'm pretty damn close to right in the middle between the two, just barely favoring the T side on the fence.

I decide who I will have feelings for and who I will not. Sometimes my emotions get kinda sneaky and I find myself very attracted to a person who I do not wish to be attracted to, but I find that it's easy enough to fix. Getting to him them better is a surefire way to lose interest most of the time. I generally prefer to just focus my feeling towards my husband. Channeling works quite well.

I used to be a very emotional person. I think as a teen and even as a young adult, typing can be difficult because there's sooooo much stress and physiologically our brain and body chemistry is in upheaval. Plus I had some brain disorders that were untreated.

At this point in time, I try to allow myself to feel however I feel and not try to fight it, but a part of my mind is sectioned off. It's the decision making part of my brain, and this strategy has worked quite nicely for me. If there is something my emotional mind wants, it makes a request of my rational mind. The request may or may not be granted. My rational mind tries to give consideration to what my emotional mind wants at all times, but understands that we can't always do what we feel like doing. Sometimes things hurt. That's just the nature of the universe. We can't experience pleasure without also experiencing pain.

As far as what I was saying about Josh being a conquest... it's not like I came right out and told him that. It's just a fun little game I play in my mind. I always automatically assume that I can have anyone I want. I understand that this is not true, and that I will experience failure from time to time, but I do not allow that fear of rejection to influence who I am interested in. If it does not appear that someone I want is interested in me (and I usually only want the ones that seem apathetic... the ones that want me are too easy, very boring, and often irritating), I do not let that deter my efforts. If, however, I try to get with that person and he makes it seem like he's not interested in me, then I decide that he's too much effort and move on to the next.

So you see, it's not that I actually believe that everyone wants me. But if I am single and looking to hook up with a person, I do not let the appearance of a lack of interest influence my decision about whether or not I should try to initiate something.

[Creepy-Kim (nlo)]

I don't know about this fear of intimacy you folks keep talking about. Other INTjs comment, please?

i think people just like to feel like they are saving intjs from themselves. it is more like what you said an "i'm not sure this is viable" type deal

Why in the world are you so paranoid? I'm repeating what I was told by an INTj and it could certainly be a personal and not a type-related thing. Why can't you accept that some people don't want to change others, they just want to understand where they are coming fromP

Chill, brother, nobody is out to get you...