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Thread: Te views of reality as perceived by the types

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    Default Te views of reality as perceived by the types

    Fi

    Fi is not necessarily just about judgements regarding people but that is where Fi is most characteristic.

    Fi types are most confident in evaluating reality in terms of connections between specific people - like laser beams connecting them.

    Let us imagine that there are indeed laser beams connecting individuals. Everyone posses both a laser projector and a detector of other people's beams.

    When a laser beam is established between two individuals, information between them is exchanged. If there is agreement on a set of criteria between the two individuals, the laser beam will turn, let us say, blue. And if there is a great lack of agreement on such criteria, the laser beam will turn red. Intermediate levels of agreement lead to intermediate colors (yellow, green, etc). The color of the laser beams connecting them to other people is the most important reality of all for Fi types.

    Fi types are static. Perhaps the beam connecting them to a specific person will "flicker" a bit before settling on a specific color, but, once it does settle, Fi types prefer, and expect, that the color remains unchanged - and all things being equal, it will remain unchanged. Since Fi's own detector-criteria do not change easily, neither will the color of the beam connecting it to another person's, since Fi types tend to assume that others' color criteria are also fixed. It takes some major upheaval to make Fi reboot its laser-beam color for an specific person, and once it has changed, another, perhaps even greater, upheaval to make the color change again or change back.

    Fi types prefer to surround themselves with those people with whom they share a blue laser beam, that's when they feel most comfortable. They prefer to isolate themselves from those with whom they share a red laser beam - and once it's red, it's not impossible for it to change, even to blue, but it's not something that the Fi types expect to happen very frequently. A constant change of color would leave them confused and mistrustful of the quality of their detectors.

    The color can be established, of course, even with someone the Fi type never met personally, and up to a point, with people they don't really know, such as public figures - whereas in that case the color is more easily rebooted when new information is received.

    The Fi types' own sense of identity, however, is not determined by how many people they can connect with in blue: rather, their sense of identity is determined by the solidity of their own detector-criteria that establish the color. Those criteria are the essence of the Fi type's willingness to establish a blue laser beam with someone, they are based on the Fi type's idea of which kind of people they would like to have a green beam to begin with. Should those criteria change and the Fi type suddenly have red beams which previously were blue, the Fi type will sense that reality itself, the own self of being, has been violated.

    We can refine this image further by adding that deep romantic feelings are blue with silver stripes, for instance.

    The difference between the ISFj and the INFj lies essentially on which kind of software feeds their laser beam detectors. The ISFj's is fed by an observation, and memory, of real events and real actions as perceived by the ISFj. The INFj's is fed rather by the INFj's perception of potential qualities and alternative possibilities regarding the specific person. Both are static, not easily changing; however, since the INFj's criteria are based on a potentials as perceived by the INFj, they can "jump" from one static state to another with less trauma than for the ISFj, for whom reality should be more fixed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    You know the first part of your description was illuminating. Makes able to make sense on how certain couple are able to happen (IXFj-EXTp). If, "casually", it happens that the set of values of the people is shared, it happens that the IxFj will turn the color of the laser beam.
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    Fe

    You know how laser beams are more easily visible when projected through some fog, some mist? Fe is like a colored fog; it can hang between two people, like the laser beams, or it can hang in the atmosphere of a group of people. And its color is influenced by the people there. People give off the fog, they contribute to it -- as if they were smoking.

    Fe people pay more attention to the color of the fog, which is more variable, it changes all the time, it's dynamic. The colors of the fog and that of the laser beams are independent from each other; the laser beams have in principle nothing to do with the fog. But the Fe fog can both make the Fi beams more visible and mask their color - like a true laser beam.

    Fe people - even Fe dominants with strong Fi - tend to use the color of the beams as enhanced by the color of the fog; Fi people - even with strong Fe - dislike it when the color of the fog flatly contradicts the color of the beam, when they are sure of it. They like to see the color of the beam without interference by the fog, so they prefer that the fog merely enhances the beam.

    Fi PoLR people are color blind with regard to the laser beams, so they tend to rely on the fog's color. Fe PoLR are sort of color blind to the fog, and they don't contribute to it, either - they don't smoke, let us say. Fe PoLR people see the beams, but since they are blind to the fog, they are unsure if they are really seeing the beams correctly, too.

    Since the fog also facilitates the visibility of the beams, a fog-poor person (or non-smoker) like an IXTp makes it difficult also for Fi types to see the correct beams between themselves and the Fe PoLR types, too. They know the beams are there, but a big of fog would be useful.

    Fi-dual seeking with Fe role is different: they prefer to focus on the laser beams, and dislike the fog's "masking" effect if it contradicts the color; Fi-dual-seeking searches for "blue" people, but they are sort of afraid of seeing blue when it isn't blue. So they are relieved when the other person is more certain that it's blue than they are themselves.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You know the first part of your description was illuminating. Makes able to make sense on how certain couple are able to happen (IXFj-EXTp). If, "casually", it happens that the set of values of the people is shared, it happens that the IxFj will turn the color of the laser beam.
    Sure, but from the point of view of the Fi IJ, the problem is that the criteria of the Ti EP for establishing the color of the laser beams - also with other people ) will often seem fickle and unreliable. It's a combination of the basic difference in the IJ - EP temperaments: IJ values staticism, EP wants to break free from it - and of the greater focus of the Ti EP on the changeable fog rathet than on the stable beams.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    As I already mentioned elsewhere, we have had a good example here of the difference between Fe>Fi and Fi>Fe.

    Fe>Fi : "that guy is an asshole, I wouldn't trust him with anything, but he's still fun company for a talk about nothing over a drink".

    Fi>Fe: "why should you want to have a drink with an asshole, even it he's 'fun' ?"
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Te types

    ESTjs and ENTjs perceive reality through their knowledge of how the world works - or that the world even works. For them, their environment, their world - both in a real and a figurative way - must be known in its own terms, so as it really is. Te is wary of believing in ideologies or systems even if they already seem to make perfect sense and are consistent: Te is suspicious of this, it feels like self-delusion. The world and the environment must work logically, they must make sense, they must work efficiently, but not through rigid structures: efficiency is measured on results and achieved by knowledge, not primarily by structural logic. Result is what counts.

    At a basic level, reality as perceived by the ENTj and the ESTj can be understood as if they were driving a car. For the ENTj, the efficiency and speed of the journey itself, as well as the final destination, are the primary criteria to optimize the workings of that environment, that situation. As long as ENTjs judge the speed and the expense of the journey to be proceeding as they judge optimal, they are contented. They may stop and "waste time" at their own discretion, however; that is ok as long as the EJ remains in control of what is going on. But just see the ENTj be faced with an unforeseen and open-ended event, like a traffic jam: the ENTj will go mad, since the perception of flow Ni, one of the main criteria for the ENTj to evaluate the final Te efficiency, has just escaped out of his EJ control.

    The ENTj will not be too concerned with whether the car is clean, tidy, or even working at optimal level: as long as the car takes the ENTj to the final goal along a perception of time flow agreeable to the ENTj, those matters do not concern the ENTj much. That is not the the case with the ESTj: it's the opposite. The ESTj's evaluation of Te efficiency of the car journey is defined by a well-running car, a tidy and clean car, an engine doing just the right noise. The efficiency that concerns the ESTj foremost is that of the car; while the efficiency that concerns the ENTj is that of the journey itself. That is not to say that the ESTj does not care about the final goal; but his focus on attaining it will be different from that of the ENTj. And, accordingly, the ENTj's problems with the journey will be related to not focusing enough on the details of car itself, and the ESTj's, to not focusing enough on possible obstacles during the journey.

    Let us change the car into a boat sailing along a river: the ENTj will want to be in control of the journey, to feel that the goal will be reached when the ENTj wishes (but not necessarily according to a pre-established schedule), so the ENTj will, again, focus on the journey itself, possible obstacles, and act to avoid them and compensate for them. The ENTj will want the boat to sail smoothly but its state is important to the ENTj only as a means to an end; the ENTj will tend to neglect the appearance and tidiness of the boat, and will check on its engines but not very enthusiastically; the ENTj is a bit impatient with doing that. The ESTj, though, will pay the closest attention to the state of the boat in its details, and will be inclined to comparatively neglect the flow of the journey itself - or go the opposite way and concentrate on a rigid, pre-fixed schedule.

    For Te, reality - the external environment - must make sense as it is. Te expects reality to change and wants to stay ahead of such changes, steering them in the right direction. That is only possible if reality is understood and can be subjected to a measure of Te's control. To be subjected to a external reality that makes no sense, and can't be steered towards sense, is one of the sources of greatest distress for Te. This includes bureaucratic rules, idiotic authority figures, and the like. Te wants to get the car moving and complete the journey - that is not helped by someone saying that the brakes have to be checked when Te knows that that isn't necessary, or someone with power telling Te to take a particular route because "I want". To reach an optimal situation of sense-making reality, Te may feel the need to assume control over the environment and other people arond; however, control is a means to an end, not the goal.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    As I already mentioned elsewhere, we have had a good example here of the difference between Fe>Fi and Fi>Fe.

    Fe>Fi : "that guy is an asshole, I wouldn't trust him with anything, but he's still fun company for a talk about nothing over a drink".

    Fi>Fe: "why should you want to have a drink with an asshole, even it he's 'fun' ?"
    Well I wouldn't go over for a drink with an asshole. However all assholes I know are never fun so I find this question a bit difficult to decide. When I meet a funny asshole with whom I love to chat with I will decide which class is me

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    Well perhaps people have different definitions of what an asshole is.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Well perhaps people have different definitions of what an asshole is.
    According to Merriam Webster: asshole = a stupid, incompetent, or detestable person where detestable = arousing or meriting intense dislike

    So my definition shall be "asshole is someone who is arousing or meriting intense dislike". I wouldn't go and have a drink and a chat with that person

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    Si types

    Right, this is going to be the most difficult one for me --

    Si types perceive reality as if they were in a restaurant or, perhaps, a health center or spa. They focus on their sensations, they let themselves sink in them: a hot tub, a beautiful garden, a table of nice food, all while enjoying a nice drink. Those sensations have up and downs and they know it: they don't worry too much if perhaps the water in the tub got a bit too cold since they know it will get hot again, or they know how to heat it up.

    That is not to mean that Si types need to be in an actual spa or restaurant: on the contrary, they are able to optimize their actual circumstances so that they can always feel as if they were in a spa.

    The ISFp is in an 18th-century kind of place: everything is managed by people, and there are people everywhere. It is the people who serve the food, who sdjust the temperature of the tub, who tender to the garden. The ISFp let themselves sink into the enjoyment of their sensations as the people around them keep those sensations at optimal level. Those people must obviously be happy, engaging in conversation with the ISFp: if they are unfriendly, sullen, they will not concern themselves too much with catering to everything that keeps the ISFp's sensations at optimal level. For the ISFp's sensations to be at optimal level, those people around must be happy.

    If people around the ISFp are happy, the ISFp feels good.

    The ISTp is in an automatic, high-tech kind of place; the people attending to it are minimal. The temperature of the bath is regulated automatically; the food is cooked by robots, the garden is watered automatically. The ISTp knows that all the instruments must be working perfectly to keep his sensations at optimal level.

    If things are working well, the ISTp feels good.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    You can't rest before Ni is done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    You can't rest before Ni is done.
    I will have to re-write that one from scratch.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    You can't rest before Ni is done.
    I will have to re-write that one from scratch.
    How sad

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    I have been thinking about the Fi/Fe laser/fog thing...

    I think it goes like this...

    Here some Fi is applied to the unsuspecting victim:


    And here is how you perceive it using Fe:


    And this is apparently an ISFj communicating with a couple of ESTps:


    *image removed for virus warning*
    Last edited by bg; 02-11-2012 at 07:40 PM. Reason: image was triggering google virus warning

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    New version

    Ni types

    Ni types perceive reality as a flow that is taking them -- somewhere, but the final destination is less a central part of their perception than the flow itself.

    Let us imagine a boat sailing gently down a river. Ni types are on an observation deck of the boat. They feel best when they know that the voyage is proceeding at the right speed and along the desired route- however, should there be an unexpected change in the route and a secondary river be taken, the Ni types immediately adjust to that and are now immersing in the flow of the new route. Transition is managed without stress.

    The INTp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INTp knows that there are no Te obstacles - the boat's machines are running smoothly, the water level will remain adequate, all the harbors will be open and with the desired supplies. As long as the information on such matters is satisfactory, the INTp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INFp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INFp knows that there will be no Fe obstacles. The INFp relies on the other people of the boat to assure that the trip will proceed well. As long as those people are well-disposed towards the INFp emotionally, the INFp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INTp is not particularly concerned with the other people on the boat. However, the INTp does need a trusted companion who will deal with them (if necessary) and will help the INTp to actually deal with the obstacles perceived by the INTp. That companion is the ESFp, who probably was also the one to get the INTp on board in the first place.

    The INFp prefers not to deal with the kind of obstacles the INTp regards as vital: the INFp feels that the trip will proceed smoothly as long as the other people on the boat are well disposed. However, not everyone will be well-disposed towards the INFp. To the deal with those, and to the other obstacles that might arise, the INFp has an ally, the ESTp. And, again, probably it was the ESTp who got the INFp on board in the first place.

    Depending on how you see it - - the ESXp is the bodyguard and guardian of the INXp; or the INXp is the navigator for the ESXp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    New version

    Ni types

    Ni types perceive reality as a flow that is taking them -- somewhere, but the final destination is less a central part of their perception than the flow itself.

    Let us imagine a boat sailing gently down a river. Ni types are on an observation deck of the boat. They feel best when they know that the voyage is proceeding at the right speed and along the desired route- however, should there be an unexpected change in the route and a secondary river be taken, the Ni types immediately adjust to that and are now immersing in the flow of the new route. Transition is managed without stress.

    The INTp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INTp knows that there are no Te obstacles - the boat's machines are running smoothly, the water level will remain adequate, all the harbors will be open and with the desired supplies. As long as the information on such matters is satisfactory, the INTp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INFp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INFp knows that there will be no Fe obstacles. The INFp relies on the other people of the boat to assure that the trip will proceed well. As long as those people are well-disposed towards the INFp emotionally, the INFp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INTp is not particularly concerned with the other people on the boat. However, the INTp does need a trusted companion who will deal with them (if necessary) and will help the INTp to actually deal with the obstacles perceived by the INTp. That companion is the ESFp, who probably was also the one to get the INTp on board in the first place.

    The INFp prefers not to deal with the kind of obstacles the INTp regards as vital: the INFp feels that the trip will proceed smoothly as long as the other people on the boat are well disposed. However, not everyone will be well-disposed towards the INFp. To the deal with those, and to the other obstacles that might arise, the INFp has an ally, the ESTp. And, again, probably it was the ESTp who got the INFp on board in the first place.

    Depending on how you see it - - the ESXp is the bodyguard and guardian of the INXp; or the INXp is the navigator for the ESXp.
    Clap, clap, clap, well done.

    me INTp

    my husband ESFp

    young daughter INFp

    I see it both ways, my hubby is Bodygard, Guardian of me, and I am his Navigator, most definitely. Daughter is a difficult one at times ...
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    "And one peculiar point I see,
    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
    Inside out, outside in, inside out, outside in,
    Perpetual change"


    Yes - The Yes Album - from "Perpetual Change" (written by Howe and Squire)

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    I'm glad, thank you.

    This image also explains why INFps are susceptible to people whom they perceive as being emotionally hostile - or at least not positively disposed - towards them: they are the ones who are rocking the INFp's boat.

    For instance - and I might as well address it here as anywhere else - I have been accused of bashing INFps and deliberately creating a biased atmosphere against them. That has never been my intention and I hope most people of all types will realize that I write bluntly (and of course incorrectly at times) about all types. I have been accused in the past of bashing ESFps, ISFjs, ISFps, INFjs and most recently INFps and ENFjs.

    What I see happening is that some INFps in particular may see my blunt approach as being emotionally hostile to them - "biased" as some prefer to put it - and that disturbs them since it makes me the guy rocking their boat.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat, don't worry - most of the ENFjs who have wondered into the forum have thought that the text about ENFj is biased against them. Probably the same reason.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    You mean my text about my boss?

    Yes, that is interesting -- from my point of view, I was describing one person who was an ENFj since the thread was about "experiences with ENFjs". As I pointed out, I had also typed Nelson Mandela, Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan as ENFj. Yet I am accused of having a "bias" against that type. The mind boggles.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    You mean my text about my boss?

    Yes, that is interesting -- from my point of view, I was describing one person who was an ENFj since the thread was about "experiences with ENFjs". As I pointed out, I had also typed Nelson Mandela, Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan as ENFj. Yet I am accused of having a "bias" against that type. The mind boggles.
    no, not you. I never said that Expat=the16types forum. Logically thinking, I'm pretty sure that people say just as much good about ENFjs as they say bad, but it doesn't matter - my mind still notices every negative thing more strongly. I see the general opinion of ENFjs, ignore the good and think that everyone hates us. I do that all the time everywhere. I can be a charmingly polite host (shy and friendly sort of polite) and then make one failed joke and I think people see me as an obnoxious ESTp who just never knows how to behave. Negativism maybe.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Ne types

    Ne types perceive reality as if they were working on a PC and were constantly opening new windows on subjects that they find interesting. For instance, one piece of information that calls their attention makes sense, it fits their idea of how things fit together; but it could be even better, or at least different. They see a new window opening on the screen where they register their thoughts or images as to how that particular piece could be improved, or simply changed, in order to fit their logical system better.

    Ne types are always keeping an eye on the extra windows they have opened, for them it's more interesting, and more relevant, than the original window (the one Se and Si perceive), which becomes boring very quickly. The opening of new windows: the escape from the boredom of the static "real" world.

    The ENTps' drive to open new windows stems from logical connections. It is an attempt to find something that would fit even better the logical system they are thinking of in a given moment. The windows are always connected to the "real" starting point at some level; what they show are potentials, alternatives, perhaps "jumps into a possible future".

    The ENFps' drive to open new windows stems from ethical connections. More typically their windows open with regard to a person, or people, showing what could be, their potential, possibilities. A stereotypical behavior is of the girl who looks at a boy and thinks "I can change him" - like Lisa with Nelson in The Simpsons. The potential, the possibility, the "new open window" of the person is more interesting and appealing than the Se reality.

    The opening of new windows is how the static-irrational Ne EPs try to break away from boredom. Another way of putting it -- Ne dominants are people whose minds are always somewhat in touch with an alternative reality, a parallel universe - or several.

    If their attention is fixed on the open windows, the Ne types are naturally a bit disconnected from the boring world of the senses. In the case of the ENTp, this also extends to connections with real individuals, since their extra windows are all about logical systems. It is the ISFp who, by focusing on the real world of the senses, helps the ENTp to find comfort there when it's lacking, and reassures the ENTp about the emotional world.

    In the case of the ENFp, what is given less attention due to the people-focused new windows are logical connections, especially between the different windows. If your attention is focused on not-logically-interconnected people and the windows related to them, you are not going to arrive at logical consistency between those different windows. The ISTp helps the ENFp on the real world of senses and provides a sense of how the world works that doesn't interfere with the ENFp's windows.

    The opening of new windows is how the static-irrational Ne EPs try to break away from boredom. Another way of putting it -- Ne dominants are people whose minds are always somewhat in touch with an alternative reality, a parallel universe - or several.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    The ENTp is looking at the image of a car on the PC screen. Immediately a window opens with an alternative design to make the car more interesting and run faster.

    The ENFp is looking at the image of a group of people. Immediately a window opens with an image of how those people could be happier, more prosperous, more skilled.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    That's an awesome description Expat. Wow.
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante
    That's an awesome description Expat. Wow.
    Thank you.

    Any dominant wants to comment?
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    lol and here I've been calling it ADD

    (kidding... it's a good description. ADD is different in that there are too many windows to look at and it bogs the system down. The windows are not Ti or Fi organized, really... they're not organized at all. It's more like pop up ads than anything.)
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    Excellent Te description. I particularly relate to the following:

    The world and the environment must work logically, they must make sense, they must work efficiently, but not through rigid structures: efficiency is measured on results and achieved by knowledge, not primarily by structural logic.

    They may stop and "waste time" at their own discretion, however; that is ok as long as the EJ remains in control of what is going on. But just see the ENTj be faced with an unforeseen and open-ended event, like a traffic jam: the ENTj will go mad, since the perception of flow Ni, one of the main criteria for the ENTj to evaluate the final Te efficiency, has just escaped out of his EJ control.

    The ENTj will not be too concerned with whether the car is clean, tidy, or even working at optimal level: as long as the car takes the ENTj to the final goal along a perception of time flow agreeable to the ENTj, those matters do not concern the ENTj much.

    They may stop and "waste time" at their own discretion, however; that is ok as long as the EJ remains in control of what is going on. But just see the ENTj be faced with an unforeseen and open-ended event, like a traffic jam: the ENTj will go mad, since the perception of flow Ni, one of the main criteria for the ENTj to evaluate the final Te efficiency, has just escaped out of his EJ control.

    To reach an optimal situation of sense-making reality, Te may feel the need to assume control over the environment and other people arond; however, control is a means to an end, not the goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    It's more like pop up ads than anything.)
    That's very good.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    It took me a while to understand the difference... I used to read all of the traits about Ne dominance and think, "oh, so that's my problem." I began to realize though that I don't have the same strengths those types do... just the negative stereotypes as weaknesses (which aren't even too bad anymore now that I'm not depressed and am back on track towards my goals).
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    I rather think that Ne is also connected with potential. Like imagine there are four dots on the paper. You can connect them with different lines. With an X or a square shape or with another way. Thats one way how Ne works.

    But jumping from one task to another is very dynamic. I myself think that this is creative Ni, because ENTjs and ENFjs are the most dynamic from all the types. I the situation is not going fast enough, they will speed it up. The creative ENTJ btw, as I think, may be very EP. Always busy and restless.

    Ne is also knowing ones personality and giving a characteristics to her or him. I myself find me very often in a situation, when becoming closer to someone, I will start telling her or him what hidden talents and problems she or he has. I will start suggesting to that person ways he or she could grow.

    ENTps and INTjs despite the fact that they are not Ethicists, still know very well the nature of another person. Quicly they will grasp what is the essence of the man next to him or her. Quickly knowing the potential of the relationship (friendship, enemies, bordom, exitement, secrets). Quickly understanding the problems of that person (depressed, low willed, stucked into a routine, hidden possibility to a rebirth). Easily know if the person interests him or her or not (she is not interesting, but I can change her into more interesting by reaviling her bohemian secret abilities). Easily know if that person is interesting. This abilty makes Ne types into very good psychoanalysts and they can write very good characteristics of a person in a story. Take Tchechov as an example. But it also makes them sometimes immobile because they see through the person so quickly that they are dissapointed (he is ordinary, not potentially creative thinker) and may start waiting for that special character they will meet one day and not noticing the good sides of thouse boring people. This is specially usual for ENTps and INTjs.

    ENFps and INFjs too have these abilities to read people, but they also have Ethics and so they can change people and make these people into someone else, knowing well how to be a psychologist for that. They like growing people into better beings and they too it altruistickly. They are natural therapists.
    Semiotical process

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    Any ISTp or ISFp - or Si quadra values generally - would care to comment on my Si descriptions, above in this thread?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    I rather think that Ne is also connected with potential. Like imagine there are four dots on the paper. You can connect them with different lines. With an X or a square shape or with another way. Thats one way how Ne works.

    But jumping from one task to another is very dynamic. I myself think that this is creative Ni, because ENTjs and ENFjs are the most dynamic from all the types. I the situation is not going fast enough, they will speed it up. The creative ENTJ btw, as I think, may be very EP. Always busy and restless.

    Ne is also knowing ones personality and giving a characteristics to her or him. I myself find me very often in a situation, when becoming closer to someone, I will start telling her or him what hidden talents and problems she or he has. I will start suggesting to that person ways he or she could grow.

    ENTps and INTjs despite the fact that they are not Ethicists, still know very well the nature of another person. Quicly they will grasp what is the essence of the man next to him or her. Quickly knowing the potential of the relationship (friendship, enemies, bordom, exitement, secrets). Quickly understanding the problems of that person (depressed, low willed, stucked into a routine, hidden possibility to a rebirth). Easily know if the person interests him or her or not (she is not interesting, but I can change her into more interesting by reaviling her bohemian secret abilities). Easily know if that person is interesting. This abilty makes Ne types into very good psychoanalysts and they can write very good characteristics of a person in a story. Take Tchechov as an example. But it also makes them sometimes immobile because they see through the person so quickly that they are dissapointed (he is ordinary, not potentially creative thinker) and may start waiting for that special character they will meet one day and not noticing the good sides of thouse boring people. This is specially usual for ENTps and INTjs.

    ENFps and INFjs too have these abilities to read people, but they also have Ethics and so they can change people and make these people into someone else, knowing well how to be a psychologist for that. They like growing people into better beings and they too it altruistickly. They are natural therapists.
    Damn, I can do that stuff you say about people.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    The creative ENTJ btw, as I think, may be very EP. Always busy and restless.
    I agree, but I think it can be more of a mental thing than a physical thing like it is with actual EPs.
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    Just one thought to add to my description of Fe above, since I did not really write about the Fe dominant types but described Fe as compared to Fi.

    Fe dominants - Fe EJ - are keenly aware of the dynamic changes in others' external emotional responses and are proactive in steering them in the direction seen as optimal by the Fe EJ.

    However, ESFjs have a here-and-now, tactical, physical, caregiver, short-term approach - a Si approach - and ENFjs have a conceptual, strategic, victimized, longer-term approach - a Ni approach.

    The differences, in practice, are these.

    The ESFj is concerned with the immediate emotional response of the other person - the mood, if you will. The ENFj is concerned with the longer-term emotional response - the impression the other person has of the ENFj. Again, one is Caregiver, the other is Victim.

    Let us imagine two performers on a stage.

    The ESFj is like the stand-up comedian who is concerned with everyone having a good time at every moment. They want to see everyone laughing. They are not particularly concerned if the audience thinks that the stand-up comedian is a successful or good person etc. The ESFj performer is focusing on the audience and thinking, "I want you to laugh, give me a laugh!"

    The ENFj is like the performer of a one-person show - perhaps a dramatic, philosophical monologue of some sort. The ENFj is not particularly concerned if, during the play, members of the audience doze off or laugh when they should not. The ENFj's concern is that, regarding the play as a whole, the audience will find the ENFj's performance totally convincing.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I have been thinking about the Fi/Fe laser/fog thing...

    I think it goes like this...

    Here some Fi is applied to the unsuspecting victim:



    And this is apparently an ISFj communicating with a couple of ESTps:

    *image removed for virus warning*
    Last edited by bg; 02-11-2012 at 07:41 PM. Reason: image was triggering google virus warning

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    i found the Ne description (by Expat) a little hard to understand and thus to comment on. jsb'07 are you ENTp?

    Sometimes I think that one can't really understand a function that you don't have, but I haven't decided on that yet. For example I am not quite sure if I should comment on the Te and Ni descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Sometimes I think that one can't really understand a function that you don't have, but I haven't decided on that yet.
    Well, that is what I'm trying to find out here -- Fi, Fe, Ni got all positive feedbacks from people who are dominant in that function, I got no feedback for Si -- my goal is to understand how each type perceives reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Well, that is what I'm trying to find out here -- Fi, Fe, Ni got all positive feedbacks from people who are dominant in that function, I got no feedback for Si -- my goal is to understand how each type perceives reality.
    I get the feeling that the ISTp description was somehow too passive but I'm not sure. They often point out how easily they get bored etc so I would guess they would want some action there not just lying in a tube More like video game in one corner, restaurant and bar at the other, ENFp ready to have sex in the third and a relaxing bath at the fourth. Then they could jump between those places whenever they wish. ISTps seem to be action oriented and pleasure oriented at the same time. And they always like to act on impulse without someone restraining them. Think about a place full of different exciting and pleasure giving activities and no rules or schedule to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I get the feeling that the ISTp description was somehow too passive but I'm not sure. They often point out how easily they get bored etc so I would guess they would want some action there not just lying in a tube More like video game in one corner, restaurant and bar at the other, ENFp ready to have sex in the third and a relaxing bath at the fourth. Then they could jump between those places whenever they wish. ISTps seem to be action oriented and pleasure oriented at the same time. And they always like to act on impulse without someone restraining them. Think about a place full of different exciting and pleasure giving activities and no rules or schedule to follow.
    That totally contradicts the concept that IPs, being introverts, are bound to be more passive in comparison to extroverts; IPs even more so than IJs. Every irrational type is impulsive in relation to rational types, but what you are describing, as a sort of "continuous fight against boredom" as a base motivation, is actually the EP temperament. What you are describing is more like ESXps than like ISXps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I get the feeling that the ISTp description was somehow too passive but I'm not sure. They often point out how easily they get bored etc so I would guess they would want some action there not just lying in a tube More like video game in one corner, restaurant and bar at the other, ENFp ready to have sex in the third and a relaxing bath at the fourth. Then they could jump between those places whenever they wish. ISTps seem to be action oriented and pleasure oriented at the same time. And they always like to act on impulse without someone restraining them. Think about a place full of different exciting and pleasure giving activities and no rules or schedule to follow.
    That totally contradicts the concept that IPs, being introverts, are bound to be more passive in comparison to extroverts; IPs even more so than IJs. Every irrational type is impulsive in relation to rational types, but what you are describing, as a sort of "continuous fight against boredom" as a base motivation, is actually the EP temperament. What you are describing is more like ESXps than like ISXps.
    Perhaps I painted it too physical and such. The point was that IPs seem to be prone to boredom more than it might seem. Even though they are not that active with other people and they seem a bit sluggish they do seem to require more varied mental and sensory stimulation than you would think. Well I don't know much IPs personally so I might be wrong. Just from what I gather here e.g. Cone reads a lot but can't read the same book for a long time in a row and instead switches books and seeks new mental stimulation. Similarly many ISTps claim they cannot watch a whole TV show because they get bored in the middle and switch to computer and then back to TV etc. So externally they might seem passive and sluggish in a way but so far it seems they have a "tiny EP" inside them. Their mental processes are more active than you might think and they do need outside stimulation to activate them. Like they need a stimulation from outside then they can experience it internally for a while but then they turn to other external stimulation and so on. So the outside and inside modes oscillate but they do spend time in both modes. If you have real life experiences which seem to suggest otherwise then perhaps you are right.

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