Logical - Ethical (draft)

[Muira]

Author note: This is a simplification or "dumb-down" version of Aushra's dichotomies traits on logical and ethical types. I plan on doing all the main ones, and potentially even renin since it's still considered a significant part of classical socionics. This isn't official yet, at least by me, I plan on actually editing this if needed.

Source original material: https://classicsocionics.wordpress.com/logic-ethics/

Ethical v Logical Strengths: While ethical types excel in interpersonal relations, it's important to note that their strength lies not just in building relationships, but also in understanding and manipulating emotions. On the other hand, logical types' prowess in dealing with the objective world extends to problem-solving and critical thinking, often rooted in analytical abilities.

The Approach to Independence: The definition of independence differs between these types. Logical type's independence manifests within their ability to solve problems autonomously, but their reliance on validation & societal recognition creates a dependency of its own. Ethical types are perceived as more dependent due to their focus and utilization of personal relations, but their ability alone to influence others and navigate social dynamics is autonomous in its own right.


Persuasion and Promises: Logical types' adherence to truth and promises stems from their need for reliability and consistency, whereas ethical types' persuasion tactics are rooted in their understanding of emotional nuances and social dynamics. The distinction here lies in the motivation behind their actions and commitments.


Evaluation Criteria: The criteria used for evaluation reflect underlying value systems. Logical types prioritize objective measures such as logic and reason, while ethical types prioritize subjective notions of morality and fairness. This contrast illustrates how individuals with different cognitive orientations perceive and assess the world around them.


Manipulation and Emotions: Ethical types' adeptness at manipulating emotions doesn't necessarily imply malicious intent; rather, it showcases their proficiency in navigating social dynamics. Meanwhile, logical types' focus on objective facts may sometimes lead to overlooking or downplaying emotional considerations, highlighting a potential blind spot in their interpersonal interactions.
Norms and Creativity: While logical types adhere strictly to established norms, it's essential to recognize that this adherence can also stem from a desire for order and predictability. Ethical types' creative approach to ethics reflects their adaptability and responsiveness to situational nuances, which can be both a strength and a challenge depending on the context.


Gender Differences: Gendered expressions of cognitive orientations are influenced by societal expectations and norms. Men with ethical thinking may exhibit pronounced masculinity to align with societal ideals, while women with logical thinking may adopt behaviors traditionally associated with masculinity as a means of asserting their competence and autonomy.


Communication of Feelings: The difficulty that logical types face in expressing emotions verbally doesn't diminish the depth or intensity of their feelings; rather, it underscores their preference for action-oriented expressions of affection. Conversely, ethical types' deliberate expressions of love reflect their conscious effort to foster emotional connections and maintain interpersonal bonds.


Stability of Feelings: Logical types' tendency to examine feelings through logical reasoning doesn't imply emotional detachment, but rather a methodical approach to understanding and processing emotions. Ethical types' conscious creation of feelings emphasizes their agency in shaping emotional experiences and relationships.

[Muira]

@Braingel, what are your thoughts?

[Braingel]

@Braingel, what are your thoughts?

I believe it’s important to explain how Fi and Fe differently manipulate emotions. With Fi, it more has do with relational ties and personal boundaries, knowing their limits and potentials— especially delta NF who have the Ne paired with this.. Making these people more skilled psychologically in terms of deep emotional dynamics… Fe types gravitate more towards persuasion and manipulations of moods and using social norms (collectively shared ones) to influence others…

In a stereotypical sense, Fe is more manipulative and it’s probably because it’s more “observable”, being an extroversive orientation..

Fi egos would be more skilled at persuading intimates (people they’ve formed bonds with), and Fe egos can more influence masses, with their ability to touch out and not as deeply go in.. Permeating all around, and moving vastly, contagiously affecting moods.. Fi ego can hit harder ok someone’s inherent core spots, especially with Ne (grasping of essence).

Admittedly, I can’t really grasp how an Se ego Fi would really manipulate emotions, perhaps because I’ve Se weakened.. I suppose it would be through inspiring volition?

Fe egos would be more gifted in convincing others in something like a social movement that needs embark… This isn’t to say logical types or Fi egos couldn’t of this do, but they’d approach it differently, and wouldn’t have as much of an upper hand in terms of hierarchy of who can naturally best affect of this..

[Distance]

I read the original work in the links in OP. It seems sound in my real-life experience as a check.

Interestingly i do not vibe with manipulation of emotions, nor build human relations via that MO of operations, etc, etc. I do almost everything in T modes in that outline.

ILE it is for me then.

[Muira]

I read the original work in the links in OP. It seems sound in my real-life experience as a check.

Interestingly i do not vibe with manipulation of emotions, nor build human relations via that MO of operations, etc, etc. I do almost everything in T modes in that outline.

ILE it is for me then.

I linked the original source material link, but here again https://classicsocionics.wordpress.com/logic-ethics/

By classical means then you'd be logical, with a lot of experience with poetry(usually Fe or Fi orientated), which explains why it's estranging to read your text. I've learned more

[Distance]

https://youtu.be/eXMzcEtb1WA?feature=shared&t=54

[Distance]

I linked the original source material link, but here again https://classicsocionics.wordpress.com/logic-ethics/

By classical means then you'd be logical, with a lot of experience with poetry(usually Fe or Fi orientated), which explains why it's estranging to read your text. I've learned more

We are both, it is directional F & T. So my ethics are normative, the poetry is ethical and it finds a way to bind it to the existing paradigms, to explain the values.

I do not see it as a creation, but more of an explanation, and in NT terms.

It is feeling, but reactive and not proactive.

Makes more sense now.

[Muira]

https://youtu.be/eXMzcEtb1WA?feature=shared&t=54

By this, it's similar to what I've written down, it's not exactly the same.

Though doing research on that woman, she discusses more on the letter typing of MBTI, more similar to big 5 than actual cognitive typing. However, I still find that her definitions or portrayals of the type are more likely to fluctuate in people, thus it's much easier to change type by the model of mbti she teaches than compared to socionics. Where TIM type doesn't change unless there is some sort of permanent psychological disorder, childhood trauma, etc, or temporarily due to substances like alcohol.
She works for a company that specializes in MBTI, but doesn't seem to mention functions, thus still unorthodox. You remind me of e7 and their unorthodox intellectualism.

[Muira]

We are both, it is directional F & T. So my ethics are normative, the poetry is ethical and it finds a way to bind it to the existing paradigms, to explain the values.

I do not see it as a creation, but more of an explanation, and in NT terms.

It is feeling, but reactive and not proactive.

Makes more sense now.

Sometimes, ITR has been called out for its BS. Some TIM types can be almost any way, as our personality and personality type are separate, if not at least overlap.

[Distance]

By this, it's similar to what I've written down, it's not exactly the same.

Though doing research on that woman, she discusses more on the letter typing of MBTI, more similar to big 5 than actual cognitive typing. However, I still find that her definitions or portrayals of the type are more likely to fluctuate in people, thus it's much easier to change type by the model of mbti she teaches than compared to socionics. Where TIM type doesn't change unless there is some sort of permanent psychological disorder, childhood trauma, etc, or temporarily due to substances like alcohol.
She works for a company that specializes in MBTI, but doesn't seem to mention functions, thus still unorthodox. You remind me of e7 and their unorthodox intellectualism.

MBTI uses dichotomies exclusively and stereotypes to explain "you."

That woman is Ni Te ( INTJ MBTI speak) and used to have a typing business, btw.

The very first MBTI test i took, was administered online by an INFJ resulted in ENTP.

The second better revised one yielded ENFP.

I'm somewhere in the center of T and F.

[Braingel]

I’m going to post this in your thread, haha, as I spewed too much out in the other thread (too much vital Fe with yourself and myself).. But I would love people to vote on my Pokemon elements :> It is a social experiment in seeing how I am perceived by others, and how closely they grasp of my inner realm..
Pokemon Elements
https://pollie.app/bieox


Out of people here, so far @The Reality Denialist has voted

[Muira]

I’m going to post this in your thread, haha, as I spewed too much out in the other thread (too much vital Fe with yourself and myself).. But I would love people to vote on my Pokemon elements :> It is a social experiment in seeing how I am perceived by others, and how closely they grasp of my inner realm..
Pokemon Elements
https://pollie.app/bieox


Out of people here, so far @The Reality Denialist has voted

Haha, I voted. funny how Fe vital goes, anyways whats your thoughts on panjungianism?

[Braingel]

Oh, I didn’t see a vote yet, a user on discord named Noir voted but he didn’t push through, maybe you didn’t.. Pan Jungianism is an ideal to reach for, but people have too many different interpretations of functions and their placements, that they don’t transgress..

[Muira]

Oh, I didn’t see a vote yet, a user on discord named Noir voted but he didn’t push through, maybe you didn’t.. Pan Jungianism is an ideal to reach for, but people have too many different interpretations of functions and their placements, that they don’t transgress..

I swore I did,I even clicked fairy.

True, especially since there is ironically different variations of panjungianism

[Distance]

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...e-in-cognition

[Muira]

@Braingel

What's your opinion on the table I made for renin dichotomies, I plan on adding all the dichotomies, and make a part 2 series on explaining the differences of these dichotomies traits in terms of functions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[Braingel]

@Braingel

What's your opinion on the table I made for renin dichotomies, I plan on adding all the dichotomies, and make a part 2 series on explaining the differences of these dichotomies traits in terms of functions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

You need grant me access to view, I requested

[Muira]

You need grant me access to view, I requested

Done!

[Braingel]

@Braingel

What's your opinion on the table I made for renin dichotomies, I plan on adding all the dichotomies, and make a part 2 series on explaining the differences of these dichotomies traits in terms of functions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

This only lets me view static v dynamic, and I agree with most of it, but believe things can break out of, which I guess everyone can use their strongest functions well, especially in specific contexts/situations, even if vital… And the opposite orientation already goes..

[Muira]

This only lets me view static v dynamic, and I agree with most of it, but believe things can break out of, which I guess everyone can use their strongest functions well, especially in specific contexts/situations, even if vital… And the opposite orientation already goes..

That's the only section done, but feel free to add criticism or direct feed back.

[The Reality Denialist]

https://youtu.be/eXMzcEtb1WA?feature=shared&t=54

This feeling seems to describe Fi vs Ti (in part) + Te (in part). Jungian feeling very much extends to objective plane too, that being Fe.

[Distance]

This feeling seems to describe Fi vs Ti (in part) + Te (in part). Jungian feeling very much extends to objective plane too, that being Fe.

As an Fe example (my sis in-law is ESE), with making decisions for other people, she will enforce a rule that makes the overall situation more harmonious for everyone. That is the main crux, to solve your problem by any means.

Or, proactively monitor the field to create a system to make for a better quality environment.

I suppose Fe vs Fi here, is where does the value start and end. Is it with what is currently valued in how it makes everyone feel, Fe, or Fi is more about my experience and that makes me feel a certain way, and i extend that universally.

In that vid presentation, i tend to not follow a single rule in T terms, & make exceptions to broad rules for individuals.

I have delinquent tenants for paying rent, and SLE & SLI advised me to kick them out now, if no pay, no stay, no exceptions. It was black and white, and binary. These are the rules statements.

[Distance]

[Distance]

Emotional manipulation story, by Distance aka Expansion.

Characters: SEI and myself.

Story line: Backdrop, I'm moving into shoes of being a landlord in having 2 tenant spaces as an inheritance, and having no life at all now, but being occupied by organizing and remodeling it for occupancy.

The place needs a range, wife found one on market place, and we traveled far and got a nice one as used.

The plan for the day was me meeting a store owner who owns a large gun business, at his business to sell my late dad's firearms to him. I have to be there before closing at 5 on the weekend.

It is 3 on the clock, on our way back to drop the range off, riding in my '18 F-150 and to get a Subway.

We get sandwiches and my wife notices a homeless person sitting at an adjacent lot at an abandoned business, sitting in front of that glass window, wearing a back pack. Looks the part easily.

She stops me on driving out and insists on buying him a sandwich, and i said we don't have time for it. ''Oh, i see how you are, everything is about you, and no else gets in your way, you come first. It is all about you and you'd let that poor man starve!"

I said no, if someone asked i'd do it, and you know he will take you up on that offer. I said believe what you want, and it diffused the tension.

That is Fe playing out and manipulation with it.