Gammas and BDSM

[Desert Financial]

Have you ever wondered why ILI seems to have a proclivity for gimp suits?

I can think of 4 Gammas off the top of my head who enjoy BDSM.

What's the relationship? Is it the Victim Style romance?
@Adam Strange

[Xaiviay]

So, there is plenty of debate as to Ayn Rand's type (who I actually admire a lot, personally, though I don't relate to her romantic preferences at all - which shall be described), but I'd venture to say that she seems pretty Ni-based in her romantic values. Here's her quote on what she believes to be the role of women in relation to men (taken from here):

For a woman qua woman, the essence of femininity is hero-worship — the desire to look up to man. “To look up” does not mean dependence, obedience or anything implying inferiority. It means an intense kind of admiration; and admiration is an emotion that can be experienced only by a person of strong character and independent value-judgments. A “clinging vine” type of woman is not an admirer, but an exploiter of men. Hero-worship is a demanding virtue: a woman has to be worthy of it and of the hero she worships. Intellectually and morally, i.e., as a human being, she has to be his equal; then the object of her worship is specifically his masculinity, not any human virtue she might lack.

This does not mean that a feminine woman feels or projects hero-worship for any and every individual man; as human beings, many of them may, in fact, be her inferiors. Her worship is an abstract emotion for the metaphysical concept of masculinity as such — which she experiences fully and concretely only for the man she loves, but which colors her attitude toward all men. This does not mean that there is a romantic or sexual intention in her attitude toward all men; quite the contrary: the higher her view of masculinity, the more severely demanding her standards. It means that she never loses the awareness of her own sexual identity and theirs. It means that a properly feminine woman does not treat men as if she were their pal, sister, mother — or leader.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that she fits the bill for a thinking type, not a feeling type. This could potentially put her in the Gamma NT category. So, she might serve as an example to this thread. Here's a description of some of the BDSM that she has written about in her books (taken from here):

Dagny's first lover, the mining heir Francisco d'Anconia, treats her like a possession: he drags her around by an arm, and once, when she makes a joke he doesn't like, he slaps her so hard it bloodies her lip. The first time they have sex, he doesn't ask for consent, but throws her down and does what he wants: "She knew that fear was useless, that he would do what he wished, that the decision was his."

Later on, Dagny has an affair with Hank Rearden (who's married to someone else at the time, but this is the sort of minor consideration that doesn't hold back Randian supermen). The first time they sleep together, it leaves Dagny bruised and bloody, and the morning after, Hank rants at her that he holds her in contempt and thinks of her as no better than a whore. Almost as soon as their relationship begins, he demands to know how many other men she's slept with and who they were. When she won't answer, he seizes her and twists her arm, trying to hurt her enough to force her to tell him.

Believe it or not, none of this is meant to make us judge these characters negatively, because in Rand's world, violent jealousy is romantic and abuse is sexy. She believed that women were meant to be subservient to men — in fact, she says that "the most feminine of all aspects" is "the look of being chained" — and that a woman being the dominant partner in a relationship was "metaphysically inappropriate" and would warp and destroy her fragile lady-mind.

Part of the same theme?

Many of the Gammas I've known love to make BDSM references. I can think of at least 4 Gammas off the top of my head who are into that - one ILI, one LIE, and two SEEs. The LIE told me about the various experiences he's had with a few sadomasochistic women, one in particular. He seemed to enjoy being the sub, but he described his ability to take the control away from her using pain and fear, sometimes. One SEE wanted very much to be in control, he did not tolerate the idea of being the sub at all. The other two Gammas have not told me much about their preferences, just that they're generally into it.

Edit: add one more ILI to that list - he identified as a switch, with a slight preference for subbing.

[someoneaskedmetofly]

Delta nfs are into this too, predominatly being subs, sometimes switches. Not sure about the st(d)s.

[Skepsis]

Thoughts of Ayn Rand and BDSM.....eww, gross.

[Adam Strange]

Have you ever wondered why ILI seems to have a proclivity for gimp suits?

I can think of 4 Gammas off the top of my head who enjoy BDSM.

What's the relationship? Is it the Victim Style romance?
@Adam Strange

I had to look up "gimp suits". *shudder*

I think human sexuality is pretty varied. Personally, I don't think that BDSM corresponds to a "Victim" erotic attitude at all. I think the article "Erotic Attitudes" describes the essence of each erotic style, and the article points out that erotic style as a function of type is not really related to sex, but rather to a person's attitude toward relationship durability. Victims tend to think that the relationship deteriorates without regular reinforcement, while aggressors are more constantly sure of their interests. Caregivers tend to want to "take care" of the person they like, and Infantiles tend to want to be taken care of.

There was a thread on this forum within the past couple of years which addressed this question, and IIRC the conclusion was that BDSM was most likely to be seen in the Delta quadra. The reasoning was that the Infantile, by being bound, was placing themselves in a position of reliance on the Caregiver and they could thus play out the Caregiver-Infantile relationship more explicitly.

Anecdotally, in the few porn videos I've watched which involved someone being tied up, I VI'd the person doing the tying as an LSE. But I also walked into my Alpha LII Infantile sister's bedroom in her apartment and found handcuffs attached to the posts of her bed.

Personally, I have an aversion to being tied up. An LSI GF suggested it (as a way for me to come to trust her more, she said), and I quickly put a stop to that line of thinking. (OK, so I have some serious issues concerning trust and control, I admit it.) But I also have an attraction to inwardly strong women who are sure about what they want, and who are also tall. The first part indicates to me that I'm oriented toward ESI's. The "tall" part might be a result of my first ESI buddy being tall and imprinting my Imago, IDK.

I do like sex with Aggressor women, that's certain, but even here, I tend to take the lead. I told the last LSI GF that she was an Aggressor and I was a Victim, and she laughed and said No, I was the Aggressor. I had to explain to her that the terminology referred to relationship durability.

I've never fantasized about being tied up or being hit or degraded. I have sometimes fantasized about dominating or being dominated, which in the later case consists of a woman telling me what she wants to do. I also fantasized about capturing the thin, black haired beauty who sat across from me in seventh grade study hall and taking her away to a cabin in the woods where I would tie her to the bed and fuck her until she liked it. However, my fantasies and what I do in real life are quite different. Lol. IRL, I wouldn't tie her to the bed. Unless she asked me to.

*EDIT* I just reread this post and noticed that I said "until she liked it." That is probably a good example of the Victim attitude. I do want my partner to be happy.

[Mila]

I don't think the sexual fetish is necessarily related to any quadra, but I've seen victim/aggressor ppl creating atmospheres that propitiate kinda bdsm relations (not in bed), just ppl falling in aggressor/victim role.

[Adam Strange]

Ppprfft

SLI caregiving tends to take the form of making lists to be sure the toilet paper reserves are adequate, and don't bother them otherwise.

[sbbds]

ILIs like playing dress-up.

@Remiel

[FDG]

Are we talking about real BDSM stuff or just rough sex? Some people kind of mix up the two...

[sbbds]

Sort of off topic:

Does anyone else here enter a “flow” state when fucking?

[Adam Strange]

Sorry, I quoted the wrong part. Its fixed now. I don't take care of ppl through lists for sure. My LSE dad always ask me for those and its not the most enjoyable task to me.

Off topic, but.....
My SLI dad had an LSE mother, and my SLI ex-wife had an LSE father. My SLI son has an SLI mother and an LIE father. Dat Te....

[Skepsis]

Making a list
Checking it twice
Gonna find out which gamma is nice
BeeeDee S M

[Skepsis]

A little more fitting.....

Making a list
Checking it twice
Gonna find out who gags on ice
BeeeDee S M

[The Reality Denialist]

One ILI physics professor started to talk about LaTeX (mathematical writing software) and then went on talking about different kind of latex and net browsing. There has to be something about it.

[timber]

krack-tish

[The Reality Denialist]

I think this is most likely gamma irrational variety. I venture out to think that gamma rational has more mental BSDM qualities. Those who have ever read Strati it should be clear as a day. I also think that this is reversed in beta.

[Ave]

Well, BDSM specifically is a culture and lifestyle which is not the same thing as power games as per the descriptions victim/aggressor (also called victim/defender).

What do you mean by BDSM exactly, are we talking whips, chains, leather, and ropes, or are we talking power games as expressed in romantic relationships? I would say the latter is more common to beta and gamma quadras, but not exclusive to them either. BDSM in terms of culture is an expression of power games to a large extent so if there is a correlation between quadra values and power games, there is most likely a correlation between quadra values and BDSM culture.

[Lord Pixel]

I dated an ILI that pretty much was into BDSM although it was never said outright. The only reason we even started dated was because we wrote erotica to each other online. And she was always most enticed by stories where she was a possession or victim to a sexual aggressor in very very gruesome ways. She said she enjoys being like doll for the person to play with. She also had a theory that there was some evolutionary gene that made women enjoy rougher sex, which I was completely confused about. Her ideas about what was a sexual turn on to me sounded like requests to be harmed or hurt, so when writing erotica it was easy to just write about her getting raped and beaten up and she enjoyed it much to my confusion. My Si could not comprehend the sexual arousal surrounding her Se, all I could think of was all the requests sounded painful while she thought they sounded erotic, I simply could not wrap my head around it. Wanting to be chocked, slapped, rape fantasy or any kind of harm makes no sense to me. I'm glad typology explains that at least a little, so I don't have to constantly ask why would someone want that.

And that Ayn Rand hero worship thing sounds about right and makes alot of sense in this specific case. This ILI liked the idea of worshiping some big bad aggressive force that could enact it's own will upon her without permission.

[sbbds]

In theory DCNH type must play a role too lol.

[Tonatiuh]

ILIs like playing dress-up.

@Remiel

Oh, you have no idea. Sometimes it's quite the dog and pony show.

[silke]

... Wanting to be chocked, slapped, rape fantasy or any kind of harm makes no sense to me. I'm glad typology explains that at least a little, so I don't have to constantly ask why would someone want that.

I've noticed there is some kind of link between ILIs and wanting to be chocked (female) or to chock a partner during sex (male ILI-Te) so I wonder what is the deal there.

[Tonatiuh]

I've noticed there is some kind of link between ILIs and wanting to be chocked (female) or to chock a partner during sex (male ILI-Te) so I wonder what is the deal there.

The deal is that as the one doing the choking get a rush of power which is highly enticing. The one getting choked enjoys feeling their existence completely at the whim of his or her partners will. Also, if done at the right point in time the orgasm will be magnified exponentially. (I prefer to use it as a tool of domination and weaken my partner and send em off into a state called subspace, which can be described as highly vulnerable and euphoric.)

This is no shit for beginners though, you have to understand the anatomy of how to do it right as well as reading your partner with extremely narrow margains. Do it wrong and damage the neck you can kill your partner instantly or the larynx and they can die with a couple of hours delay from drowning in their own blood. (Bleeding into the lungs.)

I noticed it turned me on from martials arts practice when I was a kid. I have since developed my own techniques of doing it the right way.

[Lord Pixel]

The deal is that as the one doing the choking get a rush of power which is highly enticing. The one getting choked enjoys feeling their existence completely at the whim of his or her partners will. Also, if done at the right point in time the orgasm will be magnified exponentially. (I prefer to use it as a tool of domination and weaken my partner and send em off into a state called subspace, which can be described as highly vulnerable and euphoric.)

This is no shit for beginners though, you have to understand the anatomy of how to do it right as well as reading your partner with extremely narrow margains. Do it wrong and damage the neck you can kill your partner instantly or the larynx and they can die with a couple of hours delay from drowning in their own blood. (Bleeding into the lungs.)

I noticed it turned me on from martials arts practice when I was a kid. I have since developed my own techniques of doing it the right way.

So it's an Se thing I'm guessing.

[Tonatiuh]

So it's an Se thing I'm guessing.

No.

[Sol]

BDSM is linked with dominating/submissive behavior, so relates to valued Se types and should be more interesting and used among them. Beta also having heirarchy Ti value and not having personal comfort Fi as value should have s&m as more popular and in more expressed forms.

this funny theme regularly repeats on forums and is good to troll Se valued quadras

[DirectorAbbie]

the essence of femininity is hero-worship — the desire to look up to man. “To look up” does not mean dependence, obedience or anything implying inferiority. It means an intense kind of admiration

This is a good point. It's something I can understand.


Regarding the actual topic: I have an ILI friend who likes to tell of his sadistic/masochistic sexual activities. (As if it's a regular conversation topic. Even though he knows it's not a topic of interest to me.) So that's one data point I guess.

[Sol]

whip me harder with your knowledge, i'm a terrible socionist and i need to be punished purged of heresy

mb later, honey

[Lord Pixel]

No.

Isn't power and all that Se?

[Tonatiuh]

Isn't power and all that Se?

Things should always be made as simple as possible, but not to such an extent that the core meaning itself is changed for the reason of simplification. This is such a case.

[Lord Pixel]

It seems like for some folks there is a thin line between plain and pleasure, probably Se folks.

[Tigerfadder]

Im not sure but it could be a logic thing also. Ethics dont?

[Dauphin]

I'm friends with a girl whom I believe is SEE and she's a sexual masochist. Paraphilias are always tied to some subconscious influence, so while they can be related to type, they are not always.

[Aramas]

Oh, you have no idea. Sometimes it's quite the dog and pony show.

Pics or it didn't happen xD

[Tonatiuh]

Pics or it didn't happen xD

Take that drooling mongoloid face over to pornhub instead.

[Aramas]

Take that drooling mongoloid face over to pornhub instead.

Hmmph!

[consentingadult]

Well, my two cents: it's a complicated matter, socionically speaking, but I do believe there is an inclination in Gammas to experience physical pain as a form of pleasure, a sense of being alive, either in the receiving of giving role.

Just earlier this week, when my SEI GF asked what I liked so much about e.g. spanking women (in the days that I dated women who wanted to be spanked), I explained to her that it in my case is not about wanting to hurt the other, or degrade them, it's about giving them an existential and ecstatic kind of pleasure. And that it's a great sort of 'joy' (for the lack of a better word) you experience to have that power or talent to apply just the right amount of violence that brings the other person in a state of existential ecstasy. That things can work this way emotionally with some people, is completely beyond my GF.

[Alomoes]

Actually? Yes. Sadly. And oddly enough, submissive.

[vesstheastralsilky]

Isn't power and all that Se?

Despite popular socionics opinion, philosophically power is a concept too broad to be limited to Se. IMO.

[Lord Pixel]

Well, my two cents: it's a complicated matter, sociologically speaking, but I do believe there is an inclination in Gammas to experience physical pain as a form of pleasure, a sense of being alive, either in the receiving of giving role.

Just earlier this week, when my SEI GF asked what I liked so much about e.g. spanking women (in the days that I dated women who wanted to be spanked), I explained to her that it in my case is not about wanting to hurt the other, or degrade them, it's about giving them an existential and ecstatic kind of pleasure. And that it's a great sort of 'joy' (for the lack of a better word) you experience to have that power or talent to apply just the right amount of violence that brings the other person in a state of existential ecstasy. That things can work this way emotionally with some people, is completely beyond my GF.

Yea...completely beyond is correct. I do appreciate the effort to make it less beyond though, but I don't think Si will be able to relate much, that will usually always sound like the desire to inflict pain. Just to Si, there is no way that pain makes sense as pleasure, pain is pain and pleasure is pleasure. Very fixed sensations.

Perhaps Ni is so not presently focused that Se sensation brings them back to now in a way that feels exhilarating and alive like you say, makes you feel present and grounded and in touch with your body? Ah, I cannot explain it, I'll just take your word for it.

It definitely has a confusing and uncomfortable vibe when being communicated to some Si users though, but I've heard the other side say all the sentimental caressing stuff feels fake or like "Oprah" lol, if that's the case then I can understand the lack of appeal of the other view.

[Lord Pixel]

Despite popular socionics opinion, philosophically power is a concept too broad to be limited to Se. IMO.

I don't mean as a whole concept, but in socionics Se aware of things like about physical force and power dynamics is it not?