Is Fe prone to conflict and resentment?

[Hope]

I ask this because I've seen some Fe types that seem to be always seeking to have and perpetuate in their lives some kind of conflict or controversy supported by emotions of contempt and sowing seeds of discord among people.

What do you think and what is your experience?

It can be too that its an unhealthy manifestation of the element ofc.

Its not a personal attack on Fe types ofc, and it has anything to do with the forum/forum experiences but personal life experiences with Fe in family and groups. I've just see this pattern and I'm curious to know if its something common or natural for Fe types.

[niffer]

Don’t you think this OP is a bit ironic?

[Soupman]

Don’t you think this OP is a bit ironic?

^@Crystal She's right actually sadly sort-of all types are prone to conflict and resentment because everyone is prone to feeling immense frustration when others exhibit values totally contrary to their norms yet want them imposed. You don't think your values and expectations are wrong because they are natural and normal to you - rather you are sensitive to all the contradictory values you get exposed to.

However, feelers seem to have a hard time taking emotions out of the "conflict", especially if they have the extroverted subtypes Dominant & Creative; they'll aggravate the conflict. Normalisers and Harmonisers, especially if they are introverted, tend to distance themselves from conflict - avoidance is how they deal with the world (and when it's not possible then they become conflict-prone).

If your quadra is dominant (beta) sadly you are really conflict-prone especially if you are a feeler, but perhaps there might not be resentment since, after the conflict, the bridges just get burnt, or there's no time for resentment either if you don't have a fibre of tolerance in you since the conflict never ends.

[Hope]

@niffer, why?

[niffer]

@niffer, why?

It’s ironic because this topic of discussion itself is controversial, since there are different groups of people (based on types) on here.

Don’t worry about it though lol.

[Hope]

It’s ironic because this topic of discussion itself is controversial, since there are different groups of people (based on types) on here.

Don’t worry about it though lol.

I was totally unaware of the implications. Low Ni guess. Plus, its common to see this kind of questions in other forums (but I can't ask it on mbti forums because they have wrong system), I don't know why ppl in here always take stuff as something personal or as if it were some war declaration or smth.

[Bertrand]

I think it is the nature of Fe to spot ethical problems the way Te spots things in motion that "don't work." in other words, they're dynamic types, which to me is a kind of "drama mongering" because they jump right into the stream before it can "finish". It seems to me static ethical types are the kind of people who can hold off for later and have a sincere discussion, wherein they've sort of staticized their principles. This is like if a dinner is going bad a Fe type might just make a scene whereas a Fi type might wait till they get home and rather than yell simply try to discuss what precisely went wrong. I think this gets complicated by Se types. So I would say the aforementioned holds true mainly when distinguishing beta from delta, where alpha and gamma are a little more blurred. Se + Fe amps up the drama, but Se + Fi can have its moments, etc. Meanwhile Fe + Si knows how to forebear (SEI), etc. its all a big intersection of many factors, but in general I would say Fe is on the "intervene" i.e.: create drama side of the house. Delta types can still flip out if they get stressed, this is more general trends and default strategies. For example like Robespierre, EII, might overreact if something really got them just right, but its their last resort coming online not their first resort

[golden]

I think it is the nature of Fe to spot ethical problems the way Te spots things in motion that "don't work." in other words, they're dynamic types, which to me is a kind of "drama mongering" because they jump right into the stream before it can "finish". It seems to me static ethical types are the kind of people who can hold off for later and have a sincere discussion, wherein they've sort of staticized their principles. This is like if a dinner is going bad a Fe type might just make a scene whereas a Fi type might wait till they get home and rather than yell simply try to discuss what precisely went wrong. I think this gets complicated by Se types. So I would say the aforementioned holds true mainly when distinguishing beta from delta, where alpha and gamma are a little more blurred. Se + Fe amps up the drama, but Se + Fi can have its moments, etc. Meanwhile Fe + Si knows how to forebear (SEI), etc. its all a big intersection of many factors, but in general I would say Fe is on the "intervene" i.e.: create drama side of the house. Delta types can still flip out if they get stressed, this is more general trends and default strategies. For example like Robespierre, EII, might overreact if something really got them just right, but its their last resort coming online not their first resort

I agree with a lot of this, speaking as an Fe type. I zero in on ethical problems, and if the problem is minor, I can get past it, or if a longstanding kind of pattern that can be solved by rethinking systemic faults. I’m good with spotting the snags and rethinking. But if the transgression is larger, yeah, drama.

I also agree that Delta ethicals mostly keep things tamped down, from my POV. There is one who has treated me miserably, I usually find Delta Fi puts boundaries in different locations than I do, which can cause misunderstandings even if we’re on good terms.

I have experienced Alphas holding way way back, holding things inside until they make themselves sick, even. Don’t know if anyone else has seen this.

I’ve seen and been in a bit of gamma drama, but it’s hard for me to be objective there I think Bc my parents are / were both gamma and my perception could be off.

[Hope]

I have experienced Alphas holding way way back, holding things inside until they make themselves sick, even. Don’t know if anyone else has seen this.

I've seen this in Si types (Delta and Alpha) when they love someone deeply.

[niffer]

Ok in all seriousness though: yes I agree with you. Fe is oriented towards groupfeel and puts people into groups based on objective ethics-related cues, which highlights differences and good or bad traits they perceive them to have. It can be very “us vs. them” at times based on ideology or some external group markers. There may be some more initial cognitive attraction towards that because of “Fe”. However it would be inaccurate I believe to imagine that other types don’t also engage in controversy and us vs. them conflict a lot too. Likely just as much, but for other kinds of reasons.

[yeves]

Have you read Carl Jung on his observations of types?

Here're some of his comments about Fi. Fi can go bad and selfish, as can any socionics element!


"Fi gives a woman of this type a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious. This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images; consciousness, however, readily refers it to the ego, whereupon the influence becomes debased into personal tyranny.

But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty.

Whereupon the now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the depreciated object. Consciousness begins to feel 'what others think'. Naturally, others are thinking, all sorts of baseness, scheming evil, and contriving all sorts of plots, secret intrigues, etc. To prevent this, the subject must also begin to carry out preventive intrigues, to suspect and sound others, to make subtle combinations. Assailed by rumours, he must make convulsive efforts to convert, if possible, a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Innumerable secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles not only will no base or evil means be disdained, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card."

http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...d_Feeling_Type

[Bertrand]

that quote gets posted all the time and is such fertile ground for projection, its precisely how people who don't like Fi view it as a threat whereas Fe isn't "starting drama" its resolving it, where what terrifies non Fi types is this concealed network of antipathies. before we go around on what is "better" or "worse" lets keep in mind there are two sides both that would define the other as worse. so when we say "starting drama" it is not meant to say "bad", because as we've just seen people can characterize Fi as "bad." I think what crystal was describing was the kind of Se/Ni division of forces across space and time which constitute an active flow, with a moral narrative overlaid on top. to me that is beta in the sense that they find that to be an agreeable state and therefore tend toward generating and perpetuating it (fighting for a group cause in the least subtle sense). a lot of alphas will come in here and defend Fe from the Si/Ne side without realizing its Fe in its Ni/Se instantiation that is being described. people need to get specific about quadra in other words, to have a productive discussion on this point

[yeves]

Delta is an "aristocratic" hierarchical quadrant not because it's bunches of flowers and sunshine, and conflict is only Fe prone types.

[niffer]

Delta is an "aristocratic" hierarchical quadrant not because it's bunches of flowers and sunshine, and conflict is only Fe prone types.

There’s often stifled underground drama in delta (see: what the stereotypical delta NF SJWs can stir up), but that is different from overt socially-oriented controversy and outrage and visible drama I think that OP has in question.

[yeves]

There’s often stifled underground drama in delta (see: what the stereotypical delta NF SJWs can stir up), but that is different from overt socially-oriented controversy and outrage and visible drama I think that OP has in question.

If you are Fe, it doesn't influence you and you think it's underground.

Read about how SEE women lead men out of their prior marriages. I've seen this kind of conflict first hand.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

[niffer]

If you are Fe, it doesn't influence you and you think it's underground.

Read about how SEE women lead men out of their prior marriages. I've seen this kind of conflict first hand.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

What do you mean with your first sentence?

Yeah I am not saying Fi types can’t engage in such conflict as I said before. I should have been more clear: the nature of root of it seems to be different between these types.

[yeves]

Yeah I am not saying Fi types can’t engage in such conflict as I said before. I should have been more clear: the nature of root of it seems to be different between these types.

That is what the OP is saying, that as a Fe valuing type you "always seek" to create controversy, and seed contempt and discord among people.

Do you see yourself in such a negative and contemptuous light, as the OP implies?

I ask this because I've seen some Fe types that seem to be always seeking to have and perpetuate in their lives some kind of conflict or controversy supported by emotions of contempt and sowing seeds of discord among people.

[Bertrand]

thread going as predicted. I think niffer made a good point though. a lot of this can be explained of preference in terms of open and out there (dynamic) vs concealed and static. the former seems to be what crystal was talking about which is why we're talking about it, i.e.: generating conflict in the world revolutionary struggle sense, not "so and so cheats on their wife" although the latter scenario can definitely happen to anyone, and Fi types can get caught up in the former. its more about the character of interactions, as seen from the point of view of crystal when trying to understand what she's asking, not about ripping on Fe for no reason

[niffer]

^ Exactly. It is vocalized and made much more explicit with Fe types. Even if an SEE for instance has very strong Fe, it’s unlikely they will take the “social issue” route or go us vs. them as a way to characterize and play out their conflict and drama (ok... however I think aristocratic deltas can do this quite a lot..). Anyway there is kind of a difference. Fe drama is more out there anyway.

[wasp]

yeves isn't trying to strike up controversy, I think her reaction is similar to the reaction on that thread about "passive-aggression" in the delta subforum, in the sense that she doesn't perceive herself that way, and if she's Si-valuing then it makes sense, so she's just showing that both Fi and Fe have their negative aspects and it's more dependent on the individual and how they exercise their respective IEs, than any innate issues with a particular set of IEs

and she is right somewhat. I think what's happening here is that Fi types won't perceive biting their tongue in the midst of interpersonal conflict as being "passive-aggressive", which is why they sort of tilt their head sideways at the accusation, but neither will Fe types perceive airing out interpersonal conflict as having a natural affinity for conflict, but if two people have distinctly opposing preferences when it comes handling interpersonal conflict (or anything, for that matter) then it's only natural to develop a negative perception of those who take an antithetical approach to theirs. that's the basis of socionics.

[niffer]

yeves isn't trying to strike up controversy,

Perhaps she wasn’t trying, but she did it anyway

[Kernel]

I think that you perceive Fe this way because you're Fe Polr. I have heard an SEE saying the same about an ESE, that she has resentment building and that she only wants to create conflict. From my point of view, it was not like that at all, it was just that a particular person hurted the ESE and she couldn't contain it anymore, maybe you perceive it as resentment but you actually can't blame someone for feeling that way after all what happened to them. Maybe you should try to see and understand where they're coming from before you create such a pattern in your head. Some people just won't tell you hurted them and they conceal it, maybe you have failed to see those moments where they were hurt, and what attracted your attention is that breaking point.

[yeves]

I think that you perceive Fe this way because you're Fe Polr. I have heard an SEE saying the same about an ESE, that she has resentment building and that she only wants to create conflict. From my point of view, it was not like that at all, it was just that a particular person hurted the ESE and she couldn't contain it anymore, maybe you perceive it as resentment but you actually can't blame someone for feeling that way after all what happened to them. Maybe you should try to see and understand where they're coming from before you create such a pattern in your head. Some people just won't tell you hurted them and they conceal it, maybe you have failed to see those moments where they were hurt, and what attracted your attention is that breaking point.

Wise words, you have reached the kind of insight that the OP is still working towards, which is admirable.

I hope she learns to recognize her anxiety and fearful attitude about her PoLR and comes to overcome them.

[Hope]

Wise words, you have reached the kind of insight that the OP is still working towards, which is admirable.

I hope she learns to recognize her anxiety and fearful attitude about her PoLR and comes to overcome them.

Hopefully you will take your own advice first and stop trying to read so much into others intentions.

[yeves]

I hope you take your own advice first and stop trying to reading so much into others intentions.

Instead of attempting to order around anyone in your thread, how about working through your own polr

[Hope]

Instead of attempting to order around anyone in your thread, how about working through your own polr

I was trying to do so by asking in here, but then you appeared to say how Fi was worst or equally negative than Fe and how delta was as bad as other quadras (when my point wasnt comparison of any kind) and then you started to invent stuff and argue with everybody in the thread, so you giving moral/practical advice seems kind of hypocrite and out of place.

[falsehope]

ESE can be very bad. Really, very, very bad. And many of them is. SEI can be bad as well, but a lot less. Never seen anything like that in IEI or EIE. Not that they are saints, but what they do is more rational and not fuelled by aggression and simple-mindedness.
Similarly ESI just like ESE can be really bad.

[Kernel]

ESE can be very bad. Really, very, very bad. And many of them is. SEI can be bad as well, but a lot less. Never seen anything like that in IEI or EIE. Not that they are saints, but what they do is more rational and not fuelled by aggression and simple-mindedness.
Similarly ESI just like ESE can be really bad.

Seriously! Any type can be bad. I have seen EIEs, SEEs, ESIs, SLIs, SEIs, ILEs..... being agressive. Any mature person's actions won't be fuelled by agression.

[Hope]

ESE can be very bad. Really, very, very bad. And many of them is. SEI can be bad as well, but a lot less. Never seen anything like that in IEI or EIE. Not that they are saints, but what they do is more rational and not fuelled by aggression and simple-mindedness.
Similarly ESI just like ESE can be really bad.

Yes, I was talking specifically about Alpha form irl experience.

I think betas have their variations for that, but they dont do the same that some alphas I've seen.

[Kernel]

@Crystal Sorry for interrupting but I think the pattern you noticed is a bit negative and anyone won't like to be labelled that way (even if you declared it's not a personal attack), so no need for both to be offended or whatever... like @wasp said it's just different IEs in play here and socionics should be used to avoid these kind of situations.

[Hope]

@Crystal Sorry for interrupting but I think the pattern you noticed is a bit negative and anyone won't like to be labelled that way (even if you declared it's not a personal attack), so no need for both to be offended or whatever... like @wasp said it's just different IEs in play here and socionics should be used to avoid these kind of situations.

Daisy, I wasnt labeling anyone. I was asking something. If you or other ethicals seem it as labeling well, sorry, but I dont see it that way, I'm asking something, and I'm not an hypocrite nor an ethical, I said and ask stuff as it is.

If you have something useful to add about the point in question I'll be thankful for it, if not, its ok. I won't entertain anymore this kind of emotional subtexts because they are not useful for me, sorry. The opinions of ppl about my person doesnt matter, as they dont even know me or anything about me. If they fight about something is probably their own ghosts, fears and imagination, nothing to do with me.

For the rest, I'm not saying Fi types are perfect or better than Fe or similar, that was not the point (I've even talked about Fi or a lot of other types in the forum before), comparison was far from my point, I suggest dont letting yourself to get involved in controversy or emotional outcomes in this or any other thread because I've seen you joining in similar stuff before, and no, I don't think its positive or good.

I know that Ti, Te, Fi, Fe, Se, Si, Ni, and Ne have their strengths and weaknesses, that wasnt the point but speak specifically about Fe, since I've hard time understanding it. As you can see, I didnt said: Fi is better than Fe in my op, or similar. Thank you anyway.

[wasp]

Perhaps she wasn’t trying, but she did it anyway

well I feel like the reactions fed into the controversy as much as the initial statement which prompted said reactions (which holds true in both cases)

it's common practice for members to take personal offence on this forum and we've all done it at one point or another, so to vilify her for reacting no differently from how any of us react, it doesn't make sense because we have similar threads portraying Fi-Te in a negative light (i.e. deltas and "passive-aggression") and even if I can't recall specific responses, I do remember the general tone of the thread being similar to this one, so there's this idea that we're allowed to correct negative perceptions if they concern us personally, but if someone else tries to correct a negative perception which concerns them personally, then it garners a different reaction despite the fact that it's of the same making, but I think most of our observations are rooted in something true, it's just that what's true for one person won't necessarily be true for another person, and it's that contrast which breeds interesting discussions

[Bertrand]

I understand you crystal

[falsehope]

I have one female ESE in close proximity and one male SEI. From both of them I can hear daily so many swears that it's unbelievable. The ESE woman swears her EII mother, she says she's a lose woman and anything she does is bad, and she can shout for hours about it. I am thinking on calling the police next time because sometimes it goes for the whole day.
The SEI guy swears his SLI mother who pays his rent and delivers him food. When she's late he is shouting that she is lose woman and that he will hurt her and shouts this to himself for hours.
Both are very emotionally fuelled, they just shout as much as they can and they do it for long hours. And bring back everything they can during this.

There's some similarity between them in calling their mothers lose women but they are both reliant on them, they both don't like to work and barely work. Usually they work for month or two and then they quit and spend another few years on not doing anything. They both also steal at local shops.

Similarly ESI and SEE can be like that but not so emotionally changed. For example, SEE guys can consider all women to be lose women without being angry or anything like that.

[Xaiviay]

I have one female ESE in close proximity and one male SEI. From both of them I can hear daily so many swears that it's unbelievable. The ESE woman swears her EII mother, she says she's a lose woman and anything she does is bad, and she can shout for hours about it. I am thinking on calling the police next time because sometimes it goes for the whole day.
The SEI guy swears his SLI mother who pays his rent and delivers him food. When she's late he is shouting that she is lose woman and that he will hurt her and shouts this to himself for hours.
Both are very emotionally fuelled, they just shout as much as they can and they do it for long hours. And bring back everything they can during this.

There's some similarity between them in calling their mothers lose women but they are both reliant on them, they both don't like to work and barely work. Usually they work for month or two and then they quit and spend another few years on not doing anything. They both also steal at local shops.

Similarly ESI and SEE can be like that but not so emotionally changed. For example, SEE guys can consider all women to be lose women without being angry or anything like that.

Wow, that is awful behavior o_o Hmm...most of the Fe-valuing people I've known (either quadra) do not do this. But then again, I try to avoid people like this, so I might not know. If you and Crystal are seeing alpha SFs act this way a lot, I'm surprised! I thought we were supposed to be a peaceful bunch, lol. All the SEIs I've known are really reluctant to say anything critical about anyone-way more than most people. Come to think of it, so are the IEIs. And both the ESEs and EIEs try not to spread emotional discord in a group. Even when I've heard them say something negative about another person, they do it with as much tact as possible.

But I suppose it is possible I can see how when an Fe-valuing individual is angry, they'd be more likely to express it blatantly. Also the sensing types would have stronger Se, even if they don't value it, so they might be more openly forceful when expressing their bad moods than beta NFs. Perhaps this makes for a bad combination when the individual does not know how to manage their frustration with maturity?

Also, Crystal, it is a good question. I didn't see it as you labeling anyone or saying Fe is 'bad', or anything. For what it's worth..

[Hope]

@Xaiviay
Thanks! And no, I havent seen doing SEI what Falsehope was describing, but for example IEI and ESE (I have not too much close experience with SEI either).

But what I was referring too in op was more like gossiping constantly about ppl they hate (ESE), or SEI taking parts or wanting to scorn ppl or seeing everything wrong with someone and criticizing their actions (openly and directly, actually someone in this thread did a good example of it) without having so much background or reason for it (at least from my own perspective).
In this way they create groups or division (though probably that is not their intention but to direct their emotions somewhere), this in classmates and family. In certain way its like they randomly chose certain ppl (or if family they take it as natural relations) and like them and chose them to favor them and share their love with them, and others to dislike them and show contempt or personify "evil" even if the faults they name are not even in the person.

F.e. I hate X because Y reason and therefore s/he is mean, ugly, stupid, miser, and ofc, they are always wrong and others are possibly right (ESE most like).

In other words they take someone as scapegoat.

For more detail, I've a SEI aunt, she's very kind hearted, very good person since my perspective, the most loving and devoted mother, and its evident that she loves me too, she's very kind, well wishing and she does it just because I'm her niece (since we rarely speak to each other).

I know another SEI female who is like that with her family but is not like that with others that are for example family in law, though, she doesnt gossip about them, she dislike them (she has said it openly to other family members) and she is polite though, its kind of evident the differentiation and that she's prone to not agree with other that is not her own blood. ESEs do that a lot too.

I hope that helps and its not confusing, I think they can be extremely good people, friends and parents, I've just noticed how hard is for them to accept/love/be impartial towards others once they rejected them, and how it's frequent (like for ESE) to have this kind of differentiations. Plus, as I've said, I've seen other (different) faults in Fi types or Te, Ti, Ni, etc (and I've spoke about them). I'm just asking now about Fe now.

If you think I'm wrong or its otherwise please share it. Maybe its just how Fe works and I'm failing at see something. I'm actually very interested since I want to know what should I do about it or how it can be fixed if so. If its normal behavior or unhealthy, if I should just ignore it or should I do something about it, stuff like that.

Thank you <3

[Exodus]

I ask this because I've seen some Fe types that seem to be always seeking to have and perpetuate in their lives some kind of conflict or controversy supported by emotions of contempt and sowing seeds of discord among people.

Why is this about Fe and not Se?

[Hope]

Why is this about Fe and not Se?

Because its gossip, and the ppl I've seen doing it are Ethical. I ignore if Se types do this too, honestly. The one's I've seen are ethicals Fe.

[Singu]

Because its gossip, and the ppl I've seen doing it are Ethical. I ignore if Se types do this too, honestly. The one's I've seen are ethicals.

Aren't you also doing gossip... by talking about their behavior behind their back?

If you are puzzled by their behavior, then... maybe just try asking them instead. You're not going to be getting any insight by asking OTHERS about it. Only they know why they do it.

Even if this sort of thing was a "natural inclination" of the types, functions, etc, then what? You can't do anything about it, because they can't change. Again, this brings you no new insight.

All in all, this sort of thing is mostly just a human thing. Everybody does it to a certain extent at certain times at a certain place. You're just EXPECTING to see those behaviors from certain "types". If you expect a certain behavior, then you will be bound to see it at SOME point from just about anyone, while you ignore everything else.

[Hope]

Aren't you also doing gossip... by talking about their behavior behind their back?

If you are puzzled by their behavior, then... maybe just try asking them instead.

I did. Not working. And no, I'm not gossiping in that way since I'm not affecting those ppl with my words which is the point of my question.

Thanks for the input, though.