Ego death...?

[ashlesha]

I think there are a few people here like maybe @Aylen or @Bertrand or @whodat who are familiar with this stuff and could point me in the right direction. I thought I experienced something like ego death due to a difficult experience a few years ago and I saw a Jordan Peterson video where he talked about ego death that got me curious but when I googled trying to find out more and put it into some kind of context I started thinking that my experience was really more like what is called a "dark night of the soul." Most of the information im finding online is either about psychedelics or written about in totally hippy dippy bullshit sounding blogs that I just can't connect to. Does the following describe an ego death, or a dark night of the soul, or something else?

I don't want to say much about it because it was really personal, but I connected a lot with this.

 

[Aylen]

I have experienced my own "dark night of the soul" or "ego death". It was rather traumatic at the time and nothing like depression. I have also experienced clinical depression (diagnosed) and the difference is huge. I have posted some things on discord that you could take a look at but this link is pretty good if you keep in mind the person is sharing within a certain belief system. '

WHAT IS THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL?

The Dark Night connects into the previous article about Identity Crisis. The Dark night of the Soul is a natural part of awakening, it is the shedding away of our old skin. I always envision a snake taking off layer by layer of its skin.
It’s the ripping apart of the old soul to be reborn into the New evolved consciousness.
No one is ever quite prepared for the Dark Night of the Soul. at this point, no one likes their illusions ripped apart in front of them like smashing a mirror and all that is left is yourself.
Basically what happens is you are faced with your Shadow Self. Our Shadow Self is the antithesis of our soul, it’s basically the fundamentally aspect of the unconscious that wants to destroy itself. It is the projected mirror reflection of all of your desires, unconscious emotions, your wounds, past identity, karmic bonds and soul blueprint.

https://theawakenedstate.net/going-a...rk-night-soul/

[ashlesha]

I have experienced my own "dark night of the soul" or "ego death". It was rather traumatic at the time and nothing like depression. I have also experienced clinical depression (diagnosed) and the difference is huge. I have posted some things on discord that you could take a look at but this link is pretty good if you keep in mind the person is sharing within a certain belief system. '

Yeah, it was definitely different than depression and I felt like I was confronting my shadow. Are ego death & dark night of the soul the same thing? What I read about ego death when I googled was like "you take shrooms or meditate and feel one with the universe" which isn't what it was for me at all and also different than what Peterson described.

[Aylen]

Excerpt from the book "Dark Night of the Soul by Gerald May.

Gerald G. May, MD, one of the great spiritual teachers and writers of our time, argues that the dark 'shadow' side of the true spiritual life has been trivialised and neglected to our serious detriment. Superficial and naively upbeat spirituality does not heal and enrich the soul. Nor does the other tendency to relegate deep spiritual growth to only mystics and saints. Only the honest, sometimes difficult encounters with what Christian spirituality has called and described in helpful detail as 'the dark night of the soul' can lead to true spiritual wholeness.

May emphasizes that the dark night is not necessarily a time of suffering and near despair, but a time of deep transition, a search for new orientation when things are clouded and full of mystery. The dark gives depth, dimension and fullness to the spiritual life.

Since the dark night and depression so often coexist, trying to distinguish one from the other is not as helpful as it might first appear. With today’s understanding of the causes and treatment of depression, it makes more sense simply to identify depression where it exists and to treat it appropriately, regardless of whether it is associated with a dark-night experience.

I want to restate this, because it can prevent unnecessary suffering and in some cases even be lifesaving. If someone is experiencing symptoms of significant depression, it is important that those symptoms be recognized and acknowledged, and that the person receive at least a psychiatric consultation concerning treatment. It’s wonderful if the same person happens to be experiencing something of the dark night of the soul as well, but the presence of the dark night should not cause any hesitation about treating depression. Because of recently developed medications, depression is now recognized as a very treatable dis-order, and it is a crime to let it go unattended.

The signs of clinical depression are becoming well known these days and are generally recognizable in oneself or others if time is taken to consider them. They include such symptoms as difficulty concentrating and making decisions, persistent sadness, 157

The Dark Night of the Soul hopelessness, anxiety, pessimism, guilt or a feeling of worthlessness, fatigue and lack of energy, insomnia, early morning awakening or oversleeping, decreased appetite and weight loss or overeating and weight gain, thoughts of death or suicide, and various persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment.

[Aylen]

Yeah, it was definitely different than depression and I felt like I was confronting my shadow. Are ego death & dark night of the soul the same thing?

I believe they are the same thing but "dark night of the soul" carries more religious connotations than ego death, which might be off-putting for some. I use the terms interchangeably.

[Sol]

Reminds cognitive side of a depression and what leads to it.

[Bertrand]

I think when Jung is talking about a situation forcing a person to bring their whole self into the equation is sort of like seeing what you're really made of when the chips are down. people carry with them their ego at all times and its sufficient to run 99% of problems through the ego and come out ok, but then there's that 1% where the ego can't explain away or provide any kind of solution, and its the dark night of the soul is when you're in the midst of that. you know in some sense you're wrong, your body and soul is telling you that, but you don't know how... so its this kind of radical encounter with adversity that requires an adaptation that draws on more than what you've hitherto developed to deal with that. but you have all this unknown potential inside you equal to the challenge... but to take it up you have to let go of the ego and its perceptions and rationalizations, and peterson would say this recourse to a different aspect of consciousness entails the death of some built up structures in the brain which is experienced as actual physical pain, because there's an underyling biological process that is occuring as the old suffers and dies and the new is brought in...one's capacity to undergo this and their willingness to come out stronger, rather than build up a rationalization that puts a band aid on it and regresses you, makes you weaker, is the sort of "moral courage" Jung I think is talking about. its a religious transformation in other language

I have these every once in a while and it usually centers around me realizing not only am I wrong at some issue at hand but I was wrong about a whole lot of other things too, in the past, etc... it sort of transforms the way you interpreted your entire self story and all the characters and events in it. in this way the old ego dies and a newer more comprehensive ego takes its place, that explains all the old stuff and the current situation and looks to the future differently. its this capacity that not only retools the current plan but the person themselves that differentiates it from a mere extension of the ego from an actual death and renewal that transforms it. that's my take on it anyway, I know when it happens it usually involves a lot of sleepless nights and suicidal thoughts, and why shouldnt it? the ego dying is no different than a suicidal ideation, its like trying to decide to hang onto oneself or let it go. suicide is just the bodily analogy to the internal process so the thoughts and feelings behind undergoing such a transformation should be similar

this is where "choosing to live" is paradoxical "dying to oneself", so like in suicide they say "choose life!" and the bible says "whoever seeks to save his life will lose it" i think what the bible is talking about is the abstract side of the ego, where you must let it die to live, and the choose life is the bodily side, but they're both saying have the courage to undergo the transformation, and its that courage to undergo Jung is saying what amounts to real moral effort regardless of how you construe it. and Jesus is the symbol of this "I came so that man might have life more abundantly"-- in undergoing the process you become stronger, more alive, more fully realized, but it entails a death which is to say a sacrifice. of course the whole thing is much easier said than done. as much as I believe this it never gets easier

I also think what it looks like is individual, so like an LII finding their backbone, vs an ESI finding the willingness to entertain uncertainty, ones problem area is the others strength, so there's no set solution like "just work harder" sometimes the transformation entails working less etc.. I feel like "moral effort" is in the face of fear itself which sort of casts light on winston churchill's famous quote (but it wouldn't surprise me if that interpretation was more local to LII SLE ESI IEE chain)

[ashlesha]

Yes! I'm not alone and my experience makes sense lol

I think the new internal structuring I came out of it all with, even though it is an improvement, isn't perfect and comes with continuing questions. Not an ascension into angelhood or a happy ever after. Just a radical expansion of consciousness and a lot of personal development in a relatively short period of time. But I definitely feel in my bones why it's conceived of as a spiritual thing.

I can't imagine going through it on a regular basis. It would take skillllls. I wrestled with myself for a couple of years. It was... a process.

[Pallas]

Jung is just a weird Faust fanfiction, like the psychology version of 50 Shades of Grey. Just watch Star Wars instead of reading Jung, since you'll get the exact same thing, but with epic John Williams music and laser duels instead of poorly-translated Swiss German.

I mean that seriously.

[Tallmo]

Ego death would be a very serious condition. We are totally dependent on a functioning ego.

I think in Jungian thought it usually means the impossible struggle with the shadow. A part of the shadow is never possible to integrate and that puts the ego in a impossible situation between opposites. Because it is a hopeless situation it triggers psychological transformation. That's like when Eckhard Tolle said "I can't live with myself any longer" and then he noticed a "shift in consciousness".

So this is expressed in mythology by the crucifixion or the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

But in order to get to that point one has to get hurt in some way. Basically one has to live life to the extent that there are no options left. Everybody gets to that point sooner or later if we live life to the full. Even if we don't live life to the full we might get sick or old or miss important opportunities that triggers the process.

Whenever you can find a way out of your situation, the Ego is not ready to die yet.

I've seen people encounter the shadow (after getting hurt), and it really threatens the whole personality. The problem is that they need to continue struggling with the shadow until they can't take it anymore (exactly like dying by crucifixion where you basically are forced to keep yourself alive by pulling yourself up to breath, even though you know it's hopeless). But if they give up too early or take medication it doesn't work.

This is the ego death that leads to transformation. But one can also imagine an opposite kind of ego death. That's when apathy and escapism makes the ego sink back into the unconscious and we go back to a "paradisal" existence. Like becoming a infantile or animal again.

[Pookie]

Wouldn't ego death be enlightenment?

[Bertrand]

yes I think the "death" in "ego death" is more the fear of what letting go represents, which subjectively feels like "dying" but its not really death and that surrendering the ego in this way is actually a form of healthy growth for the ego. its more the phenomenology of confrontation with the unknown and integration of the shadow in order to cope subjectively feels like a symbolic encounter with death. there's also another version of ego death where its sort of like you merge with everyone else and don't differentiate yourself from them which is a different kind of thing, more akin to buddhist "non dual-ness" or oneness which erases the strict boundaries between individuals. western minds perceive this relinquishment of personal identity as a kind of death since they identify life as a categorical distinction between oneself and others, which erasing amounts to death. I think there are many possible symbolic representations of this phenomenon but the subjective fear of non-being is what underlies a lot of it. we represent this as death typically

[Aylen]

Jung is just a weird Faust fanfiction, like the psychology version of 50 Shades of Grey. Just watch Star Wars instead of reading Jung, since you'll get the exact same thing, but with epic John Williams music and laser duels instead of poorly-translated Swiss German.

I mean that seriously.

Shush, you.

Ego death would be a very serious condition. We are totally dependent on a functioning ego.

I think in Jungian thought it usually means the impossible struggle with the shadow. A part of the shadow is never possible to integrate and that puts the ego in a impossible situation between opposites. Because it is a hopeless situation it triggers psychological transformation. That's like when Eckhard Tolle said "I can't live with myself any longer" and then he noticed a "shift in consciousness".

So this is expressed in mythology by the crucifixion or the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

But in order to get to that point one has to get hurt in some way. Basically one has to live life to the extent that there are no options left. Everybody gets to that point sooner or later if we live life to the full. Even if we don't live life to the full we might get sick or old or miss important opportunities that triggers the process.

Whenever you can find a way out of your situation, the Ego is not ready to die yet.

I've seen people encounter the shadow (after getting hurt), and it really threatens the whole personality. The problem is that they need to continue struggling with the shadow until they can't take it anymore (exactly like dying by crucifixion where you basically are forced to keep yourself alive by pulling yourself up to breath, even though you know it's hopeless). But if they give up too early or take medication it doesn't work.

This is the ego death that leads to transformation. But one can also imagine an opposite kind of ego death. That's when apathy and escapism makes the ego sink back into the unconscious and we go back to a "paradisal" existence. Like becoming a infantile or animal again.

Medication can save lives so I do not agree with what you say about that. Some people are beyond talk therapy and medication is the last option available. I know through personal experience since I would not be here now without it. I took it for exactly one year. It sucked that I was a robot during that time but it saved me. My EII sister had the same beliefs on medication as you. She didn't understand either then. She does now.

My experience of dark night/ego death was something different and I never even considered using meds to get through that. In fact I knew something special was happening within me even during the most traumatizing period (my whole inner and outer world burnt to ashes). I experienced both shock and awe. I would have never made it to that point had my bf not forced me to seek professional help a couple years earlier. Discouraging that option is bad advice if you are not qualified to give it and haven't spoken to the person about their unique situation.

[Sol]

Jung is just a weird Faust fanfiction, like the psychology version of 50 Shades of Grey.

When Jung started to practice the psychology was much worse developed. Being not a bad psychologist he understood things not bad, but some were new and such he described by own words. Having base Ni those words had much of allegory. Also seems he prefered allegory where it was possible, as thought such is more effective way to deal with the unconscious.
If he'd was bad specialist he'd never developed useful types. He made them for psychotherapy and used there. Though he was not perfect, what is evident by his wrong selftyping to base Ti, instead of correct ILI. So some bs, including saying about same like it's about other, may to exist in other his views too.

[Hope]

I became a christian when my ego experienced exactly as Jung says.

In most ppl that I know that are true christians something similar happened (situations without solution). That dark night is what confronts you with your reality instead of that bunch of crap that the Ego chose to believes daily about itself..."you can do it", "its all on you", etc etc, when you cant even control your heart beats. To me wisdom is achieved when the ego accepts reality (limitedness) and gives up, at this point the truth of existence is revealed (not before).

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Pv 16:18

Ime, one should be warned over "dark nights" that leads human to trust in itself (what Jung purpose) instead of towards God. It leads to destruction instead of life.

As crutches for pain, some allows themselves to get some natural maturity but start trusting in themselves and using their egos to overcome difficulties, standing again in sand. Its deceitful. The reality is the limitedness of the self, thats the biggest fear of ego. Acknowledge its true impotence. It leads to despair, in some cases the door chosen is suicide. God is in the other one. In the first door pride was taken from you, in the second one you choose give it willing as exchange.
There is anything mystical about this. Its crude realism. The rest is fantasy from the ego. Its when He allows you to hear, to see, to have a second chance, a new life. Release the faith in false gods (the ego) for faith in God. No ego wants to do that in first instance. Ego is capable. Ego is strong. Ego is god. But its not until this time that Israel leaves Egypt and the dessert and walks to the promise. Then again, nothing mystical about it. Its not until man knows himself as lost and is rid of distractors and is convinced of the superficiality of his palliatives and the uncertainty of fate that is able to discern, look at the reveled God.
Fake doors, aka defense mechanisms, addictions, etc are all along the way as natural psychological responses.

Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel?
Your whole head is sick,and your whole heart is faint. Is 1:5

[Pallas]

When Jung started to practice the psychology was much worse developed. Being not a bad psychologist he understood things not bad, but some were new and such he described by own words. Having base Ni those words had much of allegory. Also seems he prefered allegory where it was possible, as thought such is more effective way to deal with the unconscious.
If he'd was bad specialist he'd never developed useful types. He made them for psychotherapy and used there. Though he was not perfect, what is evident by his wrong selftyping to base Ti, instead of correct ILI. So some bs, including saying about same like it's about other, may to exist in other his views too.

And psychology didn't develop more after Jung entered it, either. It gave us a lot of literature, film, music, and literary criticism though, most good, some awful. Still way better than Freud though, who did nothing but give annoying know-it-alls a way to be more annoying. We don't need Freud for Freudian slips since Shakespeare already did that and did it better.

Types also suck. Jung didn't finish them because even he didn't really want to. They have uses but their downsides tend to really outweigh them.

[Sol]

And psychology didn't develop more after Jung entered it, either.

If we talk about clinical psychology. I'm not familiar good, but may say that developed behavioral-congnitive therapy, group approach, obscurity like humanistic and other. Jung started practice seems <1920. There happened a lot on practical side and experimental. They also got new meds which partly work and help them. Today therapy lasts seems 20 sessions mostly and has experimentally proved efficiency.

> Types also suck.

IR have significant influence on friendship and romances, at least. Needs correct types to notice this.

[ashlesha]

This is the video that got me thinking about it btw

[lavos]

When you are trapped in a bad situation without an exit or a solution, you don't suddenly become enlightnened. What happens is that your morale dwindles and dwindles away until you don't feel like continuing in that situation.

[Exodus]

I became a christian when my ego experienced exactly as Jung says.

In most ppl that I know that are true christians something similar happened (situations without solution). That dark night is what confronts you with your reality instead of that bunch of crap that the Ego chose to believes daily about itself..."you can do it", "its all on you", etc etc, when you cant even control your heart beats. To me wisdom is achieved when the ego accepts reality (limitedness) and gives up, at this point the truth of existence is revealed (not before).

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Pv 16:18

Ime, one should be warned over "dark nights" that leads human to trust in itself (what Jung purpose) instead of towards God. It leads to destruction instead of life.

This also happened to me and it is what eventually led me to Islam. Once you realize that you are powerless you can see that there is a higher power than you, and the only way through whatever you're going through is to rely on Him (swt).

Jung was very deeply misguided when it came to spirituality...someone brought up the Jedi: the darkness and difficulty of the trials that Luke went through when he was training with Yoda is not the same as the darkness of the Dark Side of the Force, like Crystal is saying it's something that produces self-discipline and righteousness rather than making you a slave to your anger and hatred. Jung got it mixed up to the point where darkness and light are no different from each other.

Ego death is related but on a different level.

[Bertrand]

When you are trapped in a bad situation without an exit or a solution, you don't suddenly become enlightnened. What happens is that your morale dwindles and dwindles away until you don't feel like continuing in that situation.

true, but the idea is even after you stop feeling like continuing but you continue anyway, possibly because you have no choice but regardless, it is then you start to appreciate what it is about that situation that is causing you to feel bad and then take steps you've never had to in order to overcome it. this is a kind of radical shift, not just a change in attitude toward the thing. its a change in perspective or approach toward all things past and present that that class of problems suggests, that when you manage it opens up new dimensions, previously locked away in the self, integrated into the ego. in that sense the old ego dies because and the new ego is in some sense an entirely different creature, but the old ego resists this process because it doesn't want to die in order to be transformed. this is Christ on the cross--transformation takes place at the coordinates of the greatest pain (stolen from peterson)

I became a christian when my ego experienced exactly as Jung says.

same, I had resisted being a Christian until 22 when I was super suicidal, essentially in the midst of what all we've been describing. And I realized what I really wanted to be was a Christian but I was afraid, because of the painful transformation (the duties that might be placed on me) required. I sort of had this epiphany where choosing to be a Christian was precisely what made you one, because it was in essence willingness to try and not turn away. so this "saved by faith" (assuming its sincere) doctrine sort of makes sense to me, although I don't think of it in those terms. its more like sincerely wanting to be a Christian understanding it involves dying to yourself and really believing in the good of such a thing with a sincere attempt to live it out is what makes you a Christian, that is the "leap of faith" and "letting Christ live in you" etc. it was really difficult but it got to the point where it was either die or at least try to live as a Christian--it was basically that point exactly where the old has to die so the new can live and its a place where you're essentially forced to make a choice if you look at it squarely and don't just avoid what's happening... I remember praying something like "God I'm afraid and a part of me doesn't want to do this--its the last thing I want to do--but I've hit a dead end with the way I've been living my life, so I'm willing to do it your way" so for better or worse, knowing I'm in some sense dead already, I'll try to be a Christian because I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain if this works, despite all my fear and resistance <-- I think its this step that is humility because it acknowledges there's something out there that knows better than you and you're willing to submit to it (Jung calls it the self--God can be found inside and outside, etc). I think that's kind of what shows what people are made of. the ego says "i already know it all--I already have all the solutions" etc. ego death is giving up that position

[Exodus]

When you are trapped in a bad situation without an exit or a solution, you don't suddenly become enlightnened. What happens is that your morale dwindles and dwindles away until you don't feel like continuing in that situation.

It all depends on your reaction. If you choose despair and hopelessness then that's your choice. You may be surprised at what happens if you take it as an opportunity for growth.

[whodat]

When you are trapped in a bad situation without an exit or a solution, you don't suddenly become enlightnened. What happens is that your morale dwindles and dwindles away until you don't feel like continuing in that situation.

True..and then you continue anyway, right? The chest keeps expanding. Your heart keeps pumping. Doing it, whatever it is, without any morale, that's the mark of a real man, or woman. I'm not even remotely joking. One foot, one step, and then another, no matter what.

Having said that, the topic is ego death, and something very different needs to happen in this case.

---> Surrender. Then keep going.

[whodat]

Ashy, I'll come into this thread as time permits. I'll also just pop in and out of shoutbox off and on as things come to mind.

[Bertrand]

Jung got it mixed up to the point where darkness and light are no different from each other.

Ego death is related but on a different level.

I see what you're saying here, but the way I look at it is Jung wanted to recognize that symbols of light and dark don't have any meaning except in relation to eachother, so while the choice between them is not equivalent from the point of view of the subject, from the point of view of pure logical possibility they are equivalent in the sense that they are opposing forces that give distinction to one another precisely because they stand as "equivalent" choices [1] (no left without right etc). in other words, if evil wasn't sufficient to be an equally attractive choice as good, the good would not be as meaningful. I guess what I'm saying is for good and evil to not be a straightforward science of cost-benefit determinism there has to be some equivalency between the two that makes the choice a meaningful choice on the part of the individual. in other words, its the individual that comes to good and evil standing as equivalent options from the point of view of pure logic and supplies to the interaction their own judgement in choosing between them, and its taking this stance toward good/evil that the choice is meaningful.

now from within a tradition that embodies a particular stance already, good and evil are already clearly arranged which is the precise value of the tradition--you can in essence adopt the stance of the community toward good/evil and benefit from the collective wisdom rather than have to make your own radical choice at every second by adhering to the doctrine of the religion or tradition. in that sense its your adherence to the religion by proxy that functions to bridge your stance toward good/evil. in other words, the tradition says what is good/evil and which is superior but in choosing your tradition and adhering to it you simply make the choice one step removed. its really not so different its just filtered through a different language. I think Jung just strips the tradition out of it and tries to approach the idea directly, but traditions don't like to be removed because they're helpful, so they view Jung as potentially confusing people, which he does run the risk of doing... but I don't think Jung was confused, I think the potential for confusion lies in his theories though

I also think every tradition views every other tradition as confused in some sense, which is why we have different traditions and Jung is himself his own sort of tradition. I think in the final analysis the truth stand outside these traditions and the traditions just point to the truth, with the real truth being essentially distributed across a variety of perspectives, but to really own that is not the dissolve the notion of truth, only to recognize it is far more complex than certain dogmas make it out to be. dogmas still have their value though because not everyone can appreciate that the truth is so distributed, for them it is a form of nihilism (I think for certain types they need to understand the truth as a discernible body of laws, so to diffuse it into perspectives would be a kind of death to them). I would say that this sort of relativism is nihilism for some and not for others, and for the people for whom it is nihilism they should not adopt it and stick to a more well defined tradition, but realizing that such traditions are vulnerable to manipulation. in that sense Jung himself is no less a tradition vulnerable to manipulation and I think its that possibility that when viewed from other traditions those traditions see and worry about. its sort of like whos at the wheel of the Jungian bus? and its not clear, which worries people. in other words, organization and heirarchy and rules are itself a requisite for something to be true in the minds of many people. "where there are crowds there is truth" v Kierkegaard "where there are crowds there is untruth"-- in the end it is very much a matter of perspective, because both statements can be true and not true at the same time. I think perspectives is what breaks Ti in some sense, because Ti wants to pin down and eliminate contradictions but if contradictions exist on the level of perception you can't fully rationally account for that except in general terms of self referential statements, i.e.: paradoxes

in other words, the behavior is always more complex than the description and as such rationality lags behind human activity, thus dogmas entail a degree of insufficiency in handling the future inasmuch as they exclude alternate perspectives because its these other perspectives that ultimately undo the dogma which is what you see with religions dying out. ultimately if someone embodies a perspective sufficiently different to a dogma the only way to silence it is to kill the person, so dogmas become kill or be killed entities which is how you get religious conflicts

[1] if this sounds as a confusing contradiction think of it as a statement of the categorical validity of the exception as such--human freedom to make of it whatever it will (Ti polr or 3d+ Ti?) really a statement of Fi interpretation of information

[Exodus]

I see what you're saying here, but the way I look at it is Jung wanted to recognize that symbols of light and dark don't have any meaning except in relation to eachother, so while the choice between them is not equivalent from the point of view of the subject, from the point of view of pure logical possibility they are equivalent in the sense that they are opposing forces that give distinction to one another precisely because they stand as "equivalent" choices. in other words, if evil wasn't sufficient to be an equally attractive choice as good, the good would not be as meaningful. I guess what I'm saying is for good and evil to not be a straightforward science of cost-benefit determinism there has to be some equivalency between the two that makes the choice a meaningful choice on the part of the individual. in other words, its the individual that comes to good and evil standing as equivalent options from the point of view of pure logic and supplies to the interaction their own judgement in choosing between them, and its taking this stance toward good/evil that the choice is meaningful.

I'm not disputing that but there is a difference nonetheless. "Pure possibility" is a state of lacking information (Ne) -- it doesn't contradict the fact of what something is in itself (Ni). It's only not straightforward when you lack information or, even worse, are presented with false information (like someone might get out of certain Jung writings). And of course if you're talking about actually making a real and meaningful decision then the subject (you) is already in the game.

It's pretty simple - light allows you to see things, darkness doesn't.

Jung is himself his own sort of tradition.

Indeed...which is why the idea of "stripping away traditions" is an illusion.

But what exactly was Jung's "tradition"? It's all very clear if you take a look at his autobiography. He was into some very dark stuff to put it mildly. (Which is why he got confused in ways that I touched on above.)

[Tallmo]

Medication can save lives so I do not agree with what you say about that.

Of course it can save lives. Im not saying that its always bad. But the psychic processes are just what they are. Therapy can help with the transformation but medication will most likely prevent it. The impossible problem with the shadow is needed for further development. Transformation is probably pretty rare. And it is definitely dangerous. I didnt mean to give general advice just talking about this in the context of ego death and transformation.

Even the Bible talks about how difficult it is to get to heaven.

Im totally aware of that only a small number of people could handle it. But in some cases i think it would be better if a person struggling with the shadow didnt get medication but instead was allowed to continue suffering together with a therapist. The shadow wont go away but the common method is just to cause regression by medication. Not only is transformation prevented but the real problem is left untreated.

[maniac]

Jordan is describing exactly what I went through in that video, with family. In the last year or so. It was very dark. I've never liked them anyway but I realized two of them are straight up malicious. especially one way it consumed me was through nightmares that made me depressed and not wanting to sleep again ever...but I think I'm getting better?
The existential discomfort appeared first, then it got worse when I realized why I was feeling like this. But now after realizing it and having known it for a while, it's starting to feel somewhat better. The worst is not conscoiusly knowing, why you feel so weird.

[Skepsis]

[ashlesha]

Whatttttttttttttttt

[Skepsis]

Whatttttttttttttttt

Eggo death

[Skepsis]

I find the idea of ego death very interesting. I think it is how we define ego. There is an illusionary component which is very image based and is created by our minds and shaped by other minds, like by society. This can and probably should die, in a manner similar to Buddhism's anatta( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta). But, the death is only symbolic, for you can never eliminate one's sense of self. This is impossible. Your neurons create a stream of consciousness that forms a sense of self. It is inescapable. It is created and unfolds via experience. One only needs awareness that one's sense of self doesn't exist a priori, but is created. It never existed before birth, is limited by genetics, but has huge flexibility and evolves over time.

In reality, our sense of self is usually challenged in life by the awareness of our temporal existence and this awareness being the result of a random universe and not the creation of a divine purpose. It can make your head spin. It can be very difficult to deal with. But, this is reality. Take it or leave it.

[Aylen]

Of course it can save lives. Im not saying that its always bad. But the psychic processes are just what they are. Therapy can help with the transformation but medication will most likely prevent it. The impossible problem with the shadow is needed for further development. Transformation is probably pretty rare. And it is definitely dangerous. I didnt mean to give general advice just talking about this in the context of ego death and transformation.

Even the Bible talks anout how difficult it is to get to heaven.

Im totally aware of that only a small number of people could handle it. But in some cases i think it would be better if a person struggling with the shadow didnt get medication but instead was allowed to continue suffering together with a therapist. The shadow wont go away but the common method is just to cause regression by medication. Not only is transformation prevented but the real problem is left untreated.

I am glad you clarified. I have known a lot of people who were anti-medication regardless of the situation. I lost a friend to suicide because she didn't take her meds. She was familiar with all these concepts and not just on a superficial level. She was also a Christian at the time of her death and didn't believe in taking the meds. She believed faith would get her through. It didn't. She went to therapy several times a week. It wasn't enough.

I believe she was going through a spiritual transformation at the time but she also had clinical depression after having a baby. Maybe the meds could have given her the break she needed in order for her mind to balance. She is not the first person I lost to suicide. I don't think meds are magic since I know a woman who killed herself while on meds. The thing they all had in common was spirituality, personality theories and philosophical perspectives similar to those some people have on this forum. :/

[The Reality Denialist]

Meds? Ummm... my condition generated lots of brain fog and headache. SNRI removed those symptoms completely. In fact just few weeks and I quit it. No need to take it anymore. Wow!


I was in a state where very old people walked past me and I didn't have any steam left.

[Aylen]

I find the idea of ego death very interesting. I think it is how we define ego. There is an illusionary component which is very image based and is created by our minds and shaped by other minds, like by society. This can and probably should die, in a manner similar to Buddhism's anatta( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta). But, the death is only symbolic, for you can never eliminate one's sense of self. This is impossible. Your neurons create a stream of consciousness that forms a sense of self. It is unescapable. It is created and unfolds via experience. One only needs awareness that one's sense of self doesn't exist a priori, but is created. It never existed before birth, is limited by genetics, but has huge flexibility and evolves over time.

In reality, our sense of self is usually challenged in life by the awareness of our temporal existence and this awareness being the result of a random universe and not the creation of a divine purpose. It can make your head spin. It can be very difficult to deal with. But, this is reality. Take it or leave it.

I think most people live in a comfortable bubble of their own belief systems unaware that what they hold is a belief, not a universal truth. My ego death/dark night occurred when that bubble finally burst and I had nothing left to hold onto. It was truly more traumatic than the worst physical, mental and emotional abuse I had ever experienced because everything I believed to be true was exposed for what it really was. I saw how I had been so wrong about many things. The me who existed up to that point died in that moment. I never felt so alone in my whole life. That feeling lasted a good while but it slowly got better as I picked myself up and started to live according to my new revelations of self and the nature of reality. It was an experience meant just for me. Not something I care to talk about much since it is a private thing and won't be the same for each person.

[Skepsis]

I think most people live in a comfortable bubble of their own belief systems unaware that what they hold is a belief, not a universal truth. My ego death/dark night occurred when that bubble finally burst and I had nothing left to hold onto. It was truly more traumatic than the worst physical, mental and emotional abuse I had ever experienced because everything I believed to be true was exposed for what it really was. I saw how I had been so wrong about many things. The me who existed up to that point died in that moment. I never felt so alone in my whole life. That feeling lasted a good while but it slowly got better as I picked myself up and started to live according to my new revelations of self and the nature of reality. It was an experience meant just for me. Not something I care to talk about much since it is a private thing and won't be the same for each person.

Sounds similar to my own experience. It was a turning point that led me into the philosophy of science and epistemology: How do we know what we know. How do we know it is true? All my personal beliefs disintegrated and nothing was there but a black void. Then, things took form again anew with a new perspective. The old ones aren't gone. They are buried in memory and they sometimes bubble up the surface, but mostly remain in shadow. The sure became a mistake, the unsure new avenues that eventually coalesced into new forms of thought and a different version of self.

[Pallas]

"Pure possibility" is a state of lacking information (Ne) -- it doesn't contradict the fact of what something is in itself (Ni). It's only not straightforward when you lack information or, even worse, are presented with false information (like someone might get out of certain Jung writings). And of course if you're talking about actually making a real and meaningful decision then the subject (you) is already in the game.

It's pretty simple - light allows you to see things, darkness doesn't.

So, you're saying Ne is nothing. What a useful IE. And you yourself as LII have literally drawn the blank in life.

[Pallas]

I think most people live in a comfortable bubble of their own belief systems unaware that what they hold is a belief, not a universal truth. My ego death/dark night occurred when that bubble finally burst and I had nothing left to hold onto. It was truly more traumatic than the worst physical, mental and emotional abuse I had ever experienced because everything I believed to be true was exposed for what it really was. I saw how I had been so wrong about many things. The me who existed up to that point died in that moment. I never felt so alone in my whole life. That feeling lasted a good while but it slowly got better as I picked myself up and started to live according to my new revelations of self and the nature of reality. It was an experience meant just for me. Not something I care to talk about much since it is a private thing and won't be the same for each person.

You're talking about it right now.

[Aylen]

You're talking about it right now.

Where would I be without you pointing out the obvious in this way... Are you really missing the point or do you just compulsively need to oppose something, anything...that is rhetorical.

"Not something I care to talk about much since it is a private thing and won't be the same for each person."

[whodat]

Ash, I'm just going to go totally random as things come.

First off, you really need to get at the base root of what we are as a species, as a biological animal, among many animals living here. There are many sides to this question of ego death, and I think its necessary to discuss what might happen in the case your ego died. What might you see?

You would see pink, or brown two-sided organisms moving about on a rock. We make things, eat things, wear things. We can be observed in the early morning, and in the evening, moving en-masse in metal containers, from one place to another. We have an uneasy sense that our presence has been contrived for a reason, just beyond our understanding. We want to know what it is, but are afraid of the consequences.

Those are the optics here.