Sociability (SO) vs Extroversion

[Olimpia]

The girl who is the social butterfly of the group and loves hanging out with people must be an extrovert, right? And the guy in the corner who is just observing the situation must be an introvert, or the woman who claims to not enjoy social events too much and rather stays at home.
If only extroversion and introversion were that simple. But they are not.

That is the trap most people fall into: Mistaking sociability with extroversion.
The truth is, true extroversion and introversion are about the main way you interact with the outer or the inner world.
As an extrovert, your main and first focus is the outside world. As an introvert, that main focus is directed at the inner world.

You can be primarily focused on the outside world, but at the same time avoid social events and prefer hanging out with a significant other at home. Or on the other hand, you can be primarily focused on your internal world of feelings, or imagination, but be interested in social belonging and politics.

In short, you can be an asocial extrovert or a sociable introvert.

You may ask then, what truly determines someone's degree of sociability, if not their degree of extroversion or introversion?


The degree of sociability boils down to your instinctual stacking...

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The most sociable (stereotypically "extroverted") instinctual stackings are those who have the Social instinct as their first: So/Sx and So/Sp.

The least sociable (stereotypically "introverted") ones are those who have the Social instinct as their last: Sp/Sx and Sx/Sp.

The most on/off with their sociability (stereotypically "ambiverted") are those who have the Social instinct as their second: Sp/So and Sx/So.

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Personally, as an So/Sx who's a true introvert (IEI-Ni), I desire and feel more fulfilled by social interactions, but I can easily get drained by them. That's why I often try to mostly get my "social fix" through online interactions, because those drain me well less, but they are also less fulfilling than those IRL.

Another example would be the many extroverted (SLE and ILE) men I have come across who would claim they used to be "introverted" when they were younger: as in, scared of social situations, suffering from social anxiety. Once they overcame their anxieties concerning social interactions, they suddenly emerged to be extroverted, sociable guys. Those guys were all Sx/Sp. It was the SO blind spot that made them feel like they were "introverted". They misconstrued shyness and social disinterest or anxiety as genuine introversion, which is a common mistake even Typology fans make. Often do I hear someone say something along the lines of: "Are you sure introverts (e.g ILIs) can be Sx/So or So/Sp? Aren't they/all introverts Sp/Sx?" Or on the other side of the coin, there is the trend of typing almost every Sx/So or Social first person as an extrovert by default: "He's so sociable, he must be an extrovert".

No, not all introverts are Sp/Sx, but the stereotypical introvert is.
No, not all extroverts are So/Sx or So/Sp, but the stereotypical extrovert is.

To determine someone's true extroversion or introversion, you cannot rely on their instinctual stacking which only shows you how willing they are to be sociable, or how much they value the quality of being sociable in themselves and others.

Having said that, there are certain extroverts that will naturally be rather sociable regardless of their instinctual stacking: SEE, ESE, IEE, and EIE. While the naturally least sociable ones are LII, ILI, SLI, and LSI. Their degree of sociability is the least affected by their stacking or Socionics subtype. The factor here seems to be the strong grasp on for the former types, or the lack of it for the latter. Whereas with the other types, their stacking, Tritype, and Socionics subtype can greatly influence how much they will come across as being sociable or not.

Note: The exception to the "SO-last people are the least sociable" rule are SEE, ESE, IEE, EIE as already mentioned, as well as Self-preservation Sixes, who in an attempt to feel more safe and secure often act more "sociable" or "extroverted" than they truly are.

[Singu]

I'm not a social person at all... it's just that I'm more aware of "social politics".

[Muddy]

I see socionics extroversion and introversion mainly as a preference for speed vs stability/harmony. Introverts prefer to take their time with things and do things in a way that feels right, while extroverts tend to skip over stuff they see as less important in order to get what they want faster. The desire to socialize is independent from this IMO and instead comes from either ethics or the instincts as stated here. Extroversion just makes those who do happen to desire to socialize do so more then the introverts desiring to socialize, since the extrovert is less concerned with limiting themselves towards interacting with the right people then the introvert.

[Raver]

I am an asocial extrovert and I have been my whole life, I chalk it up to being an sp/sx. However, I was way worse when I was younger and I grew out of it mostly. Now my sociability is highly dependent on the situation. Around close friends and family, I am an extrovert, with acquaintances I am an ambivert and with strangers I am an introvert.

[ashlesha]

How would you type the so placement of an iei 9 who is the "busy" type and concerned with achievement, extremely aware of social dynamics esp with regard to his and his family's "position," but is also pretty much a loner and not at all a social person by any standard definition?

[Pallas]

How would you type the so placement of an iei 9 who is the "busy" type and concerned with achievement, extremely aware of social dynamics esp with regard to his and his family's "position," but is also pretty much a loner and not at all a social person by any standard definition?

Sp/So

[Pookie]

I think attributing Sociability to SO is also a mistake.

[ashlesha]

Sp/So

Maybe worth considering, but the sloth thing doesn't work at all. He works out compulsively, seems sorta contemptuous of laziness, and always needs a goal. Some of this is decisiveness but idk.

[Pallas]

Maybe worth considering, but the sloth thing doesn't work at all. He works out compulsively, seems sorta contemptuous of laziness, and always needs a goal. Some of this is decisiveness but idk.

What's E9 about that? That sounds Sp/So 3 to me, if you include the other post. (Without that, could also be E8.)

[ashlesha]

What's E9 about that? That sounds Sp/So 3 to me, if you include the other post. (Without that, could also be E8.)

His relationship to anger and self assertion definitely drives his main fix. He probably has a strong line to 3, but he avoids his reflection (literally and kinda figuratively). His activity isn't with the intent to impress people.

[Olimpia]

I think attributing Sociability to SO is also a mistake.

Well, that's like saying the SX instinct is not about sex.
Surely, it is not just about that, but at the same time, if you deny its obvious connection to sex you deny a crucial and fundamental aspect of that instinct. Same for SO and sociability. I think I've made it clear that not all SO first people are going to be super sociable. It also depends on their Enneagram core type and tritype, their Sociotype, and their health level – unhealthy SO leads can become sort of "antisocial" or "unsociable".

Still, the SO instinct is the most concerned with being part of some group or people in general, they need to feel that belonging, hence why friendship is so important to them. Social interactions "fuel" the SO instinct, just like SX is fueled by intense connecting (like having sex ) with their beloved. Basically, an SO first person who socializes regularly is in their element; one that doesn't is most likely unhealthy. Just like an SX first person who connects deeply with another human being is in their element, and is most likely unhealthy if they shun close romantic connections.

P.S: Of course people who are Sx blindspot can (and do) have regular sex, and people who are So blindspot can (and certain ones do) be sociable. The difference is, that for the SX first or SO first person, those aspects are a part of their core being; typically they need those to be happy, there is a certain depth (or at the worst desperation) to their instinctual desire for those things (read my Bucket analogy for more, haha) whereas the other stackings can take it or leave it (rather) – it is something they can do, not something they "are".

[Stellafera]

Well, that's like saying the SX instinct is not about sex.
Surely, it is not just about that, but at the same time, if you deny its obvious connection to sex you deny a crucial and fundamental aspect of that instinct. Same for SO and sociability. I think I've made it clear that not all SO first people are going to be super sociable. It also depends on their Enneagram core type and tritype, their Sociotype, and their health level – unhealthy SO leads can become sort of "antisocial" or "unsociable".

Still, the SO instinct is the most concerned with being part of some group or people in general, they need to feel that belonging, hence why friendship is so important to them. Social interactions "fuel" the SO instinct, just like SX is fueled by intense connecting (like having sex ) with their beloved. Basically, an SO first person who socializes regularly is in their element; one that doesn't is most likely unhealthy. Just like an SX first person who connects deeply with another human being is in their element, and is most likely unhealthy if they shun close romantic connections.

P.S: Of course people who are Sx blindspot can (and do) have regular sex, and people who are So blindspot can (and certain ones do) be sociable. The difference is, that for the SX first or SO first person, those aspects are a part of their core being; typically they need those to be happy, there is a certain depth (or at the worst desperation) to their instinctual desire for those things (read my Bucket analogy for more, haha) whereas the other stackings can take it or leave it (rather) – it is something they can do, not something they "are".

Yeah, I'm a So-dom introvert, but I need a certain amount of social engagement. When I'm alone, I tend to seek it out through arenas like forums where people will react with what I say and communicate; when I'm reading books, I like to annotate all over them to feel sort of like I'm having a conversation. I need some quality So time once in a while to feel like I'm a part of the world. When I'm going to the restaurant, movie theater, etc alone, I still tend to engage in small talk, it makes me feel energized. I might want to do the activity as a whole by myself but I like having that feeling of being reacted to and having a voice.

[Olimpia]

Yesterday I read in a book filled with Jung's writings where he described introversion as "weltabgewandt" which literally translates into "turned-away-from-the-world".

[The Reality Denialist]

Basically when someone asks you the question how are you doing and who you are, what are you feeling etc and you struggle immensely to produce any sort of coherent response - it means real introversion is very hard for you.

[The Reality Denialist]

Allrite. I am not so person then, lolz. My mind can not engage to regular things. If you dare to bring me there I'm just like "la la la" and I have to escape them ASAP. However when you find my ignition point some people assume I probably have very large social groups around me and so on. Probably that would be the case if there were more complementary minded people. Probably I'm bit too heavy minded which also turns off lots of people. They basically sh*t their pants. I'm like walking external contradiction at times.

Can anyone instinct type me? I doubt.

[cry]

I have social anxiety (a meaningless term possibly but it fits well- if it exists then I definitely have it, if it doesn't then I still have it) so I'm highly aware of everything related to social instinct like shame and status and how groups differ from other groups and the differences between people and how differences can be bridged for the greater good ... but whether i follow it or not is a choice.

I still have sp/sx as my instinctual variant type though because I can only feel truly satisfied alone or with very little people and no strong group coherency.

I think partly why I hate groups is because i have no influence on the interactions and I want to direct things even if I don't talk much.

[Starvish]

I try to be sociable but I get embarrassed easily, so I haven't bothered in a while.

[The Reality Denialist]

Taking an absolute shot in the dark since I’m new here and don’t know you well, I’m gonna guess sp/sx based on the posts I’ve seen of yours.

Yeah. My detachment from environment is like huge. Something decoration something.. lol.. no clue about that but I am still breathing and I consider breathing important in terms of not wanting to die. No desire for social norms but I don't want troubles that will restrict freedom and I'm only intimate with my mind.

[lemontrees]

His relationship to anger and self assertion definitely drives his main fix. He probably has a strong line to 3, but he avoids his reflection (literally and kinda figuratively). His activity isn't with the intent to impress people.

maybe he's a one? I dunno!

[Aster]

For myself, as an introvert and soc first, I’ve never been mistaken irl as an extrovert. I think everyone I’ve met irl would agree I’m an introvert, and ‘shy’. Some people online have thought I could be extroverted. I suppose I also have ‘social anxiety’, which can be worse during certain times. I’ve also been referred to as ‘backwards’, as in not inclined to involve myself or self-promoting. My mother calls me an observer. As a contrast, my husband is an extrovert and probably sp/sx. He doesn’t care that much about social stuff, besides politics, but he’s better at socializing than I am, even though he’s a lot less agreeable. He prefers to be by himself ‘doing important things’. I however don’t feel like I’m good at being social, but I crave being around people. I feel sickly dependent on it. I’ve told him in the past I’m envious of his social skillz. That it’s not even fair because he doesn’t care. He prefers we just do things, the two of us, which I also like, but I also like going to festivals and gatherings where there are ‘people’, and it annoys the crap out of him being around all those people. He doesn’t understand the ‘point’ and considers it a waste of time. I usually befriend people who I’ve worked with or gone to school with, but I have a hard time keeping in touch if I’m not around them everyday. I’ve also been told some days I’m more social than others. Now that I’m doing neither of those things (working or going to school), it becomes difficult for me to reach out to people, other than family. There has been times when I’ve alienated myself or acted more like a hermit, even to my own extended family, but I was pretty unhealthy during those times. But I do feel better being around people and connected to something bigger. And am usually in a healthier mental state when I am. However it also depends on the people I’m around.

[cry]

Actually now that I think about it, I'm pretty highly social, it just doesn't result in action- more observation. So I could still believe I have a social instinct over sexual instinct - Sp/so.

I believe truly that if I were in any other country I might be seen as the sociable Fe ego with a decently visible social instinct, but in America I look like the typical LII/ILI observer, because everyone else is so... vocal and aggressive. So in a way I've been artifically placed into the position of observer, meaning that if I lived among quieter and less aggressive people I might be more of a participant.

[Muddy]

I had this one really cool teacher back in middle school who would talk about all this really deep stuff. One day he was talking about about introversion and extroversion. He said that if you ask people whether they are introverts or extroverts most of them would say, "ehh I'm in the middle", when in reality the vast majority og people are moderately introverted or moderately extroverted, with only a very few being hard introverts, hard extroverts, or truly in the middle. He then drew a introversion-extroversion spectrum line on the chalk board and started placing the classroom students on it to demonstrate his point. When he got to me he was like, "Well, hmmm, actually you do seem like you are actually in the middle", and he placed me smack dab in the middle of the spectrum. I felt unique and special after that.

But yeah, my sociability can vary a lot depending on my situation. In high school I would go entire days with just saying a few words. That mostly stemmed from having moved and not knowing or relating to anybody, being horribly underweight and consequently having a low self-esteem, and the constant domestic turmoil amongst my parents that left me just wanting to lock myself in my room all day just to avoid trouble. It was dark times indeed and my sociability plummeted. When things are going good for me though and I like the people I'm around I'm far more open and prone to make jokes. I've managed to form a brotherhood with some of my co-workers and doing so has liberated me.

[Olimpia]

I had this one really cool teacher back in middle school who would talk about all this really deep stuff. One day he was talking about about introversion and extroversion. He said that if you ask people whether they are introverts or extroverts most of them would say, "ehh I'm in the middle", when in reality the vast majority og people are moderately introverted or moderately extroverted, with only a very few being hard introverts, hard extroverts, or truly in the middle. He then drew a introversion-extroversion spectrum line on the chalk board and started placing the classroom students on it to demonstrate his point. When he got to me he was like, "Well, hmmm, actually you do seem like you are actually in the middle", and he placed me smack dab in the middle of the spectrum. I felt unique and special after that.

But yeah, my sociability can vary a lot depending on my situation. In high school I would go entire days with just saying a few words. That mostly stemmed from having moved and not knowing or relating to anybody, being horribly underweight and consequently having a low self-esteem, and the constant domestic turmoil amongst my parents that left me just wanting to lock myself in my room all day just to avoid trouble. It was dark times indeed and my sociability plummeted. When things are going good for me though and I like the people I'm around I'm far more open and prone to make jokes. I've managed to form a brotherhood with some of my co-workers and doing so has liberated me.

Thanks for sharing!

They often say that 6s feel "ambiverted", no matter what their "true" orientation is. Could have something to do with 6s often feeling ambivalent and like they're standing inbetween two chairs. Especially SP 6 (as i mentioned above).

Any idea what the teacher's type was? Maybe EIE?

[Muddy]

Any idea what the teacher's type was? Maybe EIE?

Very possibly. I wouldn't consider myself enough of a typing expert to say with certainty he was EIE but I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be. He was heavily into medieval stuff and would go to medieval battle reeactments. In class he had as play this sort of game called he called "Kingdom of Heaven", where each of us was assigned a random class like king, baron, duke etc. and we could do all sorts like things like trade resources or declare war with other classmates. He did get quite dramatic in class on a few occasions and even broke a ruler in half once by slamming it on a table which shocked the class lol.

Edit: Forgot to mention he was the art teacher (a stereotypical EIE profession). He delved into these other topics during a sort of "free period" we had in our school that allowed teachers to teach basically what ever they wanted.

[saskiaza21]

Well, that's like saying the SX instinct is not about sex.
Surely, it is not just about that, but at the same time, if you deny its obvious connection to sex you deny a crucial and fundamental aspect of that instinct. Same for SO and sociability. I think I've made it clear that not all SO first people are going to be super sociable. It also depends on their Enneagram core type and tritype, their Sociotype, and their health level – unhealthy SO leads can become sort of "antisocial" or "unsociable".

Still, the SO instinct is the most concerned with being part of some group or people in general, they need to feel that belonging, hence why friendship is so important to them. Social interactions "fuel" the SO instinct, just like SX is fueled by intense connecting (like having sex ) with their beloved. Basically, an SO first person who socializes regularly is in their element; one that doesn't is most likely unhealthy. Just like an SX first person who connects deeply with another human being is in their element, and is most likely unhealthy if they shun close romantic connections.

P.S: Of course people who are Sx blindspot can (and do) have regular sex, and people who are So blindspot can (and certain ones do) be sociable. The difference is, that for the SX first or SO first person, those aspects are a part of their core being; typically they need those to be happy, there is a certain depth (or at the worst desperation) to their instinctual desire for those things (read my Bucket analogy for more, haha) whereas the other stackings can take it or leave it (rather) – it is something they can do, not something they "are".

Funny, i'm social blind but really friendly and warm ngl. I'm SP 6 and sometimes seeking friendship, someone ever accused me as SO 4 cause i was venting a lot about my friendship, i vent cause i need support ngl. I had a crush who SO/SP 6 + he is sociotype ESI, he is rather cold irl unlike me, he is rather strict too. I don't like someone stereotyping the iv, they think So blinds are edgy and unfriendly, Sp blind doesn't care about themselves, Sx blind are bland and can't do sex + boring. As 6w5, i still seek solitude but at the same time i'm engaging to be others