ISFps and ESFjs, anyone actually struggling to make friends?

[InkMyUmbrella]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

[Suz]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

I'm not sure if I'm alpha SF - many people here have proposed that type for me - so take what I say in context with the type uncertainty.
I am fairly good at making friends but I do have a bit of social anxiety when in unfamiliar milieus. I have been there and done that and have functioned well, but it does take a lot out of me and once in a while such an experiences has felt awkward (usually because I found the people there boring or uninteresting). Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

[Adam Strange]

I'm not sure if I'm alpha SF - many people here have proposed that type for me - so take what I say in context with the type uncertainty.
I am fairly good at making friends but I do have a bit of social anxiety when in unfamiliar milieus. I have been there and done that and have functioned well, but it does take a lot out of me and once in a while such an experiences has felt awkward (usually because I found the people there boring or uninteresting). Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

Damn, all of that has happened to me, too, @Suz.

Dunno if that makes me an introvert, though.

[Suz]

Damn, all of that has happened to me, too, @Suz.

Dunno if that makes me an introvert, though.

well the sapping of energy with these endeavors is one of the ways introversion is defined, isn't it? That was the specific thing I was referring to as showing me my introversion.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

They probably do dislike you and don't want to be around you, but I think this is a common human thing. I dislike other people and also don't want to be around them. I don't like conservative redneck SMASHes and they don't like me either. I don't like liberal faggy worldly people either though.

I think it has strong ties to blood roots and genetic code. You are naturally wary of anybody who isn't part of your own tribe/family and they have to earn that right. When your genes want to reproduce then you want to be around this person etc. Or you have something to exchange etc. Otherwise what's the point? Cold distance is more efficient.

Charming narcissists don't really have this filter- they'll just be pretend-chummy with everybody to get their own needs met, but they aren't good to be in a relationship with anyway at all since we humans naturally want true love and meaning/intimacy which the narcissist can't provide.

Don't worry about being liked. You will find 'your family' just by being yourself. Just do that and don't put on some fake persona to please another person. <3

[Delilah]

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.
@Suz: are you seriously considering SEI? I find it hard to believe you could be in conflicting quadra to mine

[Suz]

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.
@Suz: are you seriously considering SEI? I find it hard to believe you could be in conflicting quadra to mine

Idk maybe i am beta or gamma after all... who knows. I've given up on socionics. It's so hard to really what what each type is supposed to be like.

[wacey]

The ESE and SEI I know: the ESE treats everyone the same amount of Fe, yet is so self sufficient they don't seem to need friends. The SEI I'm close with has suffered a very tramuatic past and amoung other hurts, scars, and coping habits, has become very introverted and shy's away from many people. Which is a shame for me to see because this person really is so vibrant (jokes, teasing) and likable; all the best parts of Fe. The trouble is the negative streak in SEIs combined with introverted sensing which leads to isolated nesting.

Some of this might be explained that Fe =\= sociability, which is what many assume of alpha SFs.

[Tallmo]

It's complicated.

SEI is one of the weakest types compared with common standards in society. So SEIs often get neurotic, they either withdraw into themselves or they become nervous. They can have great problems with adaption to society.

But those who manage to do it can be very social and full of life. Then they can be fully themselves and show their type strengths.

I have had the same experience with social problems, but I notice that the more I adapt the better things get. Basically this means taking on the challenges that society and life puts on me.

We should remember that a manifestation of a type is not necessarily directly type related. It can just be a consequence of bad adaption, common for that type.

[GuavaDrunk]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

That sounds more like your anxiousness making you look for signs that things are going badly, and strong Fe making it easy to find even small signs of such. The key here is in the interpretation, not the input.

[wacey]

That sounds more like your anxiousness making you look for signs that things are going badly, and strong Fe making it easy to find even small signs of such. The key here is in the interpretation, not the input.

Great point. It can take years to learn how to interpret without causing self conscious anxiety. Cogantive behavioural therapy is one technique that can help.

On a related note this same issue causes people anxiety when they smoke pot.

[Rebelondeck]

Ips often develop siege mentalities. SXIs are the most observant of body language but unfortunately have tendencies to jump to conclusions about odd nuances in expression while they themselves also display many uninterpretable or seemingly conflicting ones. They seem to frequently hide (SEIs may cower while SLIs prepare for battle) behind walls and when others sense the suspicion, they tend to look for more welcoming scenes. SEIs have the better tools to understand and mitigate this self-imposed isolation but this doesn't always work. When under stress, they do eventually try to search for logical rationalizations and often find out that they only needed to open their eyes a little wider and be a little less defensive and or reactive.........
a.k.a. I/O

[at sirac son of sirac]

I've never known ESEs and SEIs to struggle to make friends.

Without knowing anything about you, who can say? And if I knew, I doubt I'm qualified, so I can only answer the question.

Maybe you're another type, or typology isn't your answer.

[Chae]

With SEI-Si there's quite a chance. Self-pres/sexual Dumas in particular, they have more introverted enneagram types as well. You know their dual, ILE, master of puppets, everywhere and nowhere exhausting themselves - this is everything that SEI isn't.

ESE - sounds more improbable. Leading "I cannot not express myself" with the immediacy of sensing has to make a social impact and connection, no matter how neurotic the person is. I mean can you imagine the Hugo of the socion in a lonely corner

[InkMyUmbrella]

Other times I have made lifelong friends that I keep in touch with to this day. These efforts do require a lot of energy that I've realized I do not have. I think this has me convinced of my introversion at this point.

I have sometimes reconsidered going to an event where I don't know anybody, in favor of just curling up in my cozy sanctuary that is my abode.

Also negative interpersonal experiences with toxic people over the years have made me much more cautious about making new contacts, in general. I have zero desire to invite negative drama into my life (that is often difficult to get rid of), and being more conscious of how devious and manipulative some people can be, I approach new acquaintances much more carefully than I used to.

Therefore, I am somewhat in a similar situation as you, in which I am enjoying my life of relative solitude with a few trusted friends. I could seriously spend weeks at a time in my home and being alone outdoors and maybe have a friend or three over and be happy and not get bored, and I find it hard to justify disturbing that peace with potentially toxic individuals.

Bolded is me 100%. Over many years, I've tried out different personalities only to eventually give up. Now, only when I feel a deeper connection with a person and find them easy to talk to will I open up more.

They probably do dislike you and don't want to be around you, but I think this is a common human thing. I dislike other people and also don't want to be around them. I don't like conservative redneck SMASHes and they don't like me either. I don't like liberal faggy worldly people either though.

I think it has strong ties to blood roots and genetic code. You are naturally wary of anybody who isn't part of your own tribe/family and they have to earn that right. When your genes want to reproduce then you want to be around this person etc. Or you have something to exchange etc. Otherwise what's the point? Cold distance is more efficient.

Don't worry about being liked. You will find 'your family' just by being yourself. Just do that and don't put on some fake persona to please another person. <3

Ouch to the first bolded. And eh. Yes and no. I don't get along with people of my ethnic background very well either, so I think this is a "me" problem more than a genetic roots problem. But thank you!

SEIs are quite reserved imo; I dunno that might make it difficult for them to reach out to people sometimes. I've also noticed that if they don't like someone they are going to make zero effort, so maybe there's some of that too.

I wouldn't say I'm reserved...more so shy than anything else. Of course this could be from my perspective of myself, but i always figured I was a "heart on her sleeve" type of person aha

It's complicated.

SEI is one of the weakest types compared with common standards in society. So SEIs often get neurotic, they either withdraw into themselves or they become nervous. They can have great problems with adaption to society.

It sounds like SEI is so common because Jung/Myers clumped people who are neurotic/have self esteem issues into this category. Not saying other types can't have issues, but they seem to manifest as Si + Fe than anything else. At least this is my theory; I could be wrong. Also there are probably naturally happy ISFps.

Sounds like an eii

I did get this when I first took the socionics online test...I also scored INFP in Myers Briggs tests, but I am reluctant to call myself that. Many people I've asked think I'm an SFJ of some sort, maybe a couple see me as a Fi type, but I'm sticking to that for now. I've more so begun acting more INFj-ish as I've gotten older and more willing to be open minded. So it's pretty confusing.

[Tallmo]

It sounds like SEI is so common because Jung/Myers clumped people who are neurotic/have self esteem issues into this category. Not saying other types can't have issues, but they seem to manifest as Si + Fe than anything else. At least this is my theory; I could be wrong. Also there are probably naturally happy ISFps.

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

[at sirac son of sirac]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

Jung did speak about potential neuroses of each type, mainly each leading function, I can't remember what they were though.

But ... need to get type right first, no point in typing from neuroses then upwards for sure.

[Aylen]

Jung did speak about potential neuroses of each type, mainly each leading function, I can't remember what they were though.

But ... need to get type right first, no point in typing from neuroses then upwards for sure.

Jung's theory of neurosis is based on the premise of a self-regulating psyche composed of tensions between opposing attitudes of the ego and the unconscious. A neurosis is a significant unresolved tension between these contending attitudes. Each neurosis is unique, and different things work in different cases, so no therapeutic method can be arbitrarily applied. Nevertheless, there is a set of cases that Jung especially addressed. Although adjusted well enough to everyday life, the individual has lost a fulfilling sense of meaning and purpose, and has no living religious belief to which to turn. There seems to be no readily apparent way to set matters right. In these cases, Jung turned to ongoing symbolic communication from the unconscious in the form of dreams and visions.


Resolution of the tension causing this type of neurosis involves a careful constructive study of the fantasies. The seriousness with which the individual (ego) must take the mythological aspects of the fantasies may compare with the regard that devoted believers have toward their religion. It is not merely an intellectual exercise, but requires the commitment of the whole person and realization that the unconscious has a connection to life-giving spiritual forces. Only a belief founded on direct experience with this process is sufficient to oppose, balance, and otherwise adjust the attitude of the ego.


When this process works, this type of neurosis may be considered a life-guiding gift from the unconscious, even though the personal journey forced upon the individual sometimes takes decades. This may seem absurd to someone looking at a neurosis from the attitude that it is always an illness that should not have to happen, expects the doctor to have a quick cure, and that fantasies are unreliable subjective experiences.


A significant aspect of Jung's theory of neurosis is how symptoms can vary by psychological type. The hierarchy of discriminating psychological functions gives each individual a dominant sensation, intuition, feeling, or thinking function preference with either an extroverted or introverted attitude. The dominant is quite under the control of the ego. But the inferior function remains a gateway for unconscious contents. This creates typical manifestations of inferior insight and behavior when extreme function one-sidedness accompanies the neurosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung%2...ry_of_neurosis

[InkMyUmbrella]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

That's what I mean. I saw some videos on youtube of self-proclaimed SEIs...granted, they could be another type if self-proclaimed, but I do think that S types comfortable in their own skin generally know who they are, and hold reliable accounts of their position-> anyways, I could not really relate to them in this regard. I'm not..."happy" as I am. I don't like the fact that I'm scared to try anything new and that I self doubt myself constantly. I also do realize that having an identity that you can stand on instead of following people around like a lost puppy is what gets you friends in the first place, but being a depressed SEI type makes that almost impossible for me. So it gets confusing as to where everything starts and where it all ends, if you get what I'm saying. Is it "natural" for SEIs to face depression (since human beings seem to naturally desire the opposite: a wild lifestyle filled with adventure, seeming full of strength to other people, confident in their abilities, etc), or are the "depressed" SEI's really something else? I'm less inclined to agree with the latter because that would mean that other types are less rare than we think. But anyways, then what creates the division between the content SEI and the depressed?

[Tallmo]

Is it "natural" for SEIs to face depression (since human beings seem to naturally desire the opposite: a wild lifestyle filled with adventure, seeming full of strength to other people, confident in their abilities, etc), or are the "depressed" SEI's really something else? I'm less inclined to agree with the latter because that would mean that other types are less rare than we think. But anyways, then what creates the division between the content SEI and the depressed?

I don't know if its natural, many people can get depressed, but SEIs problems with the hard demands of life can lead to depression. For some SEIs the solution can be to find a rich partner, or to find a job that is not too demanding but not too boring either. Also use free time for some personal "SEI stuff", and that way compensate for a boring job. Or to bring in more fun and partying into life. It's also important to have Alpha NT friends, I feel that they give me much.

But I wouldn't say that SEI is a particularly depressive type, but some problems are usually present. They are also quite good at coping with negative stuff, because of the rich inner life (Si).

[Suz]

No, Jung is only categorizing by functions. Any personal problems are secondary and just correlations to that. Si+Fe can have very positive manifestations if the person is able to develop them. But often the demands of society are very different than then strengths of the SEI, so that creates problems. But as a pure type, the SEI is not problematic.

Successful SEIs are usually artists, because here they can get paid for using their strengths.

Whenever someone says a certain type can only be successful at a certain job (especially one specific job), I take what they say with a lot of skepticism.

[lemontrees]

With SEI-Si there's quite a chance. Self-pres/sexual Dumas in particular, they have more introverted enneagram types as well. You know their dual, ILE, master of puppets, everywhere and nowhere exhausting themselves - this is everything that SEI isn't.

Omgg yes.

This so, so much.

Once I took a trip to visit my ILE ex. One morning I went to explore the city and he said he was "going somewhere." So I saw the places I had in mind, went back, made the bed comfortable, watched TV, slept. He didn't appear until 4pm the next day. He just got... sidetracked with drinking and phone batteries died.

BTW he is 100% sp/sx and still like that.

That experience actually changed me (???) I was like... I'm so serious and I have a rhythm and every weekend it's just like, chores, exercise, reading books. I was aware of consciously restricting my life too in ways. Anyway, after that I thought maybe I could be more open. I felt very viscerally affected, sort of like... once I did a zero gravitation chamber and afterwards walking around for 1.5 days my body felt extremely different bc the muslces sort of just...unfurl. But it didn't last long.

Btw I think having something grounding can help. Like passions, a close person who doesn't care about how good you are w/ "socializing" b/c you are already close, or responsibilities that you have to handle regardless of what anyone thinks. Not b/c social anxiety is frivolous (I don't think it is) but b/c shifting attention away from it will make encounters feel lower in stakes.

[lemontrees]

It's probably easier to just not over-read others' reactions. Nobody's going to get along perfectly w/ everyone anyway.

[xerx]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

I read your posts and you seem pretty OK; you're probably just over-thinking things. Fi PoLRs are pretty non-judgemental people anyway, and even when they are being judgemental, it's either very temporary (on a whim, basically) or not deeply felt.

[xerx]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

Also, are you taking medication of any kind? I had paranoid delusions of persecution for a year when I was put on this god-awful (and unnecessary, as I later found out) brain medicine. (not joking)

[The Reality Denialist]

I think creative IE is seen as bit irresponsible from base user's perspective.
For example:
It is like: you got an idea from someone but do understand your own limits.
If the person is capable with Se they have capability to twist the world to follow their own path to some extent.

[Alomoes]

Hello,

I was wondering if there are other SEI and ESE types who struggle to make friends, contrary to what our type seems to indicate our strengths are?

I am very sensitive to how others perceive me and the overall "image" I display, and this has actually manifested to social anxiety since I interpret little details in facial expression and tone to mean the person may dislike me/not want me around. I used to strongly desire having a wide group of friends, but pretty much gave up after many years, and decided to attempt a life of solitude (to little avail, as it is natural for me to still desire strong friendships). So is this anyone else's experience?

That is interesting. I don't know. My brother does have friends, so I'd think yes. He is SEI. Also, I know of another. He is also SEI.

There is a possibility that you don't desire lots of friends, but a few really close friends and deep conversations on things. As such, that would make you not SEI or ESE.

For reference, Adam Strange is a ENTj. They are Gamma, which exhibits this trait.

Bullets and doves is about right, by the way. Surprisingly. It is more than that though. There has been successful replication of DNA. The DNA as replicated though, follows patterns. As such, you get repeats. This is just that. Like if you have only a finite amount of tries, you get repeats. Apparently the number is 16. It is weird, I did not choose that number.

The gamma being unwelcoming to people with facades about them is wrong. It is more that we close out anyone with a persona. You do your thing. I'll do mine type deal. Like a reverse containment board on 4chan. We kind of just want to be left alone. Some people get a pass. We will come out and interact with the outside world though. That is guaranteed, as it is our perceived job.

[Bethanyclaire]

Bumping this thread because people have been asking about SEI/mental health stuff recently. I’m also interested in the ESE experience as my mum is this type.

[Aquamarine]

I kinda have no desire to go out of my way to make friends anymore. Coupled with the social anxiety thing and things that have happened in the past few years of my life that no one really knows about, I feel very distant from most people. Also the whole emotional problem with friendship ugh. It seems pointless to me. Deep down I don't believe that I can have healthy friendships or relationships with people overall.

I don't make friends easily. Never have. I've had people consider me their friend but I realize I have a very specific idea of what a friendship should be like in my head and most people don't meet that criteria. In my head friendship would almost feel like we're in a relationship but without certain things obviously. Like I wanna be their one and only person. I don't have that in friendships. Never have.