ESFj and the need for Control

[wacey]

This scenario has played out in several permutations:

ESFj shows visual indignance.

ESFj asks in a deceivingly "nice tone" to follow their "suggestion" (command).

ESFj becomes self-righteously indignant.

ESFj becomes moody so that everyone around them understands their "pain".

ESFj performs the silent treatment.

ESFj performs almost zero self reflection as to how their original frustration may have originated within themselves.

Example:

Sitting in new Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Movie is awful and dull. I turn on my phone, turn to nightshift yellow screen mode and dim the lights. ESFj proceeds to "pout", sigh, shift body position, glance down, "tsk". I continue using my phone discreetly: few other people in the theatre besides us in the back corner. ESFj leans over and says "would you stop using that thing right now". I turn to ESFj and say, "nope, I'm 30 and you cant tell me what to do, why dont you sit somewhere else if tis such a big deal." At which point, he makes a big scene and actually goes to sit in another part of the movie theatre...a grown ass 58 year man ditches his friend and roommate because I was using my cell, held against my stomach, in a decidedly boring movie for children.

Later on, as we exit the theatre, ESFj acts as though this is literally the biggest deal on the entire planet. He states: "it was incredibly disrespectful" I say "to whom?" He says "to me and the other people in the theatre", I say "nobody could see us, what did it matter, I enjoyed the movie anyway?" He says, "because of you telling me what to do." At at this point I need to mention I'm calm as a cucumber because I could not care-a-less about what other people think...and can understand that his self-rightous indignant has more to do with the fact he is a stuffy theatre promotor who tells people what to do everyday in regards to the ethics of emotions. At this point, I am seeing that my ethics are far more manoeuvrable and situation based as compared to his, which seems very static, and rigid, almost overly simplified, such as, "you do not use your phone in a theatre because it is rude", and under "any circumstances". It's something related to harmony of the outer situation.

So on the way home, he is literally climbing out the window wanting to get away from me or something, and again, since I "hate" silent treatments and adult "pouting", I ask him in a very quiet voice, "what is it that is really bothering you here?" He tells me "if you can't stop asking me, you need to find another place to live". And I say, "ahhhh, there it is." Knowing that things of this nature are usually larger and grander then they appear. I tell him,"maybe you need a kid instead to tell what to do and thats why this bothers you so much because I dont listen to you?". He says "this will be the last movie we ever go to..." um, okay I think, as I roll my eyes. Poor guy, honestly I don't understand his issue here. How disrespected does he feel by this I don't understand.

Which brings me to the second point here... I knew this was going to happen. I knew in the first week I lived here that if I didn't play by "his" Fe rules, then it would be game over for me.

Discussion:

I know many of you are going to say, well, that's just you and him and none of this is type related, but I assure you, it is very type related. One thing to understand about ESFjs is that although they are "Fe", they are still ESxjs. The need to be the parental "upper hand", can escalate to claustrophobic proportions. For example, @sorrows anecdote of minding the turkey dinner atmosphere in another thread.

This scenario has played itself out a number of times between me and ESFj, were we have a "reset" point, that seems quite uncomfortable more-so for him, but also for me via collateral damage. So really my question is, how can I understand this type of behaviour from him, and how can I help our relationship grow from here? Some factors: he is basically an only child, he is independently wealthy, and he is in a position of workplace power.

I really feel as though he's not understanding me on some socionics level, for example: not being told what to do in public when clearly I am within rights to do so. We have an excellent relationship together and an excellent roomate situation. These events are so isolated yet are so remarkable that I had to make this thread. Am I hitting some polr things? Am I hitting something else? Teacher-student? I wish I knew how to proceed.

[Tallmo]

ESEs can be very difficult. Suggestive Ti that invents all kinds of "logics" to support the current feeling. Ni polr that doesn't understand the unfolding of events, yet wants to control it. No self-reflection but often strong identification as a person who understands people and soft values.

It gets worse if ESE is Dominant subtype and has other personal problems.

Arguing too much doesn't help. Sometimes one can tell them straight that they are a terrible person. That might shock them so much that the message might go through. Or else simply tell them that they are exaggerating and explain in a very short and simple way why they are wrong. Then let it pass.

But at the end of the day it's my problem, because I can change myself, but I cannot change the ESE. So I try to respond in such a way to solve the problem, if it's worth solving. Trying to be mature helps.

EDIT: H-ESE are almost always very pleasant people

[Pookie]

Honestly, I try to spell out their motivations for them and show them how they're doing what they're mad at me for doing.

FWIW I always give my friends shit if they're on the phone in the movie theater. But the passive aggressiveness here would make me not listen to them.

Interesting he got mad that you told him what to do, when he was basically trying to tell you what to do.

[Tallmo]

I remember one ESE. She was upset because she took the train without buying a ticket. And she got busted.

She was going on and on about it

Her arguments:

1) "It was Christmas day, imagine! Don't they have anything better to do than creating problems for people during Christmas"

2) "I didn't have any money with me, so how was I supposed to buy the ticket"

3) "Not only did I get a fine, but I also had to pay the price of a single ticket. But I already told them: I don't have any money, because that's the reason why I didn't buy the ticket in the first place"

Me: Well, having no money is not a valid reason for travelling without a ticket

ESE: Yeah, but on Chrstimas day!

Me: As far as I know there is no discount on the trains during Chrstmas.

At this point her ILE boyfriend turned to her "c'mon, it was your own fault, lets change the subject"

[Bertrand]

that reminds me of the time my boss scheduled me on a day I wasn't available, which was documented and widely known, and I told him 3 times in advance that I wasn't going to be there. So the day came and went and I didn't show up. I showed up to my next shift and he was like "I thought you quit!!" and I told him "I told you 3 times I wouldn't be there" and his response was "oh you know, no one can keep track of all that!" I mean not like its your job or anything to do exactly that. It was like making a case for why he should be replaced. But anyway, he was legit happy I was still choosing to work there, but at the same time angry that I didn't show up for "my shift" without at all admitting this entire situation was a problem of his own making via a failure to simply do his job (an easy fix would have just been to schedule a replacement, which was not at all problematic). As far as he was concerned I was kind of a bad worker but he liked me, and was glad I was still going to work there, because hiring someone new would be more work. like he was the benevolent actor beset by problems all around but could not at all see how he was responsible for the entire thing. the irony is he will go to the grave thinking the additional work he would potentially have to do by hiring someone new is just the product of bad behavior of others and not all a consequence he would have brought on by failing to do his own job and thus creating more work for himself. failure to see the path of least resistance would be just to do his job correctly and that 99% of his problems are self made, and the boisterous moral sheen they put on it only exacerbates things

[Bertrand]

hey I never really thought of it that way, thanks sorrows!

that's really enlightening

[wacey]

Thanks to everyone for contributing in the thread so far. There had been some excellent points made and I will try and address each in the near future. I encourage other people to also participate if you feel you have something to say. So far things have been most illuminating.

[wacey]

ESEs can be very difficult. Suggestive Ti that invents all kinds of "logics" to support the current feeling.

This is something I come up across frequently with him. I had noticed that many times, his ideas of logic sound less logical and more just personal preference. The catch, and I will be saying this numerous times, is that it often doesn't sound logical at all: usually just hypocritical. For instance, here is an example of something I might hear: "you need to empty the lint from the clothes drying machine every single time, otherwise you WILL start a fire.." To which I reply, "every time..? sometimes I do not empty it for half a dozen times in the past and I have never started a fire." He would reply, almost more desperate, "you WILL cause a fire." At which point, I would simply give up and agree to those terms, because I do not want to have an argument over it.

Ni polr that doesn't understand the unfolding of events, yet wants to control it.

I have nothing I want to add to this other than to say I agree here.

No self-reflection but often strong identification as a person who understands people and soft values.

You see, this quality really is one of the key stones to many of my problems with said ESFj, and others as well. On the surface they are people that understand other people, and they do have many insightful values that take into consideration other people with their accepting values. The real trouble is, and in my experience I had to spend a lot of direct time with him, is that there is so little self-reflection. I mean, yes they self reflect, but I never see any conclusions into his own actions in the moment. It would always be way after the fact and I would NEVER hear something resembling an apology such as, "I'm sorry for the other night, it was kinda my own hangup and I took it out on you."--->something I could easily, albeit begrudgingly, do myself.

It gets worse if ESE is Dominant subtype and has other personal problems.

I could see anyone having personal problems as amplifying the negative aspects of their sociotype. One thing that strikes me here is that my ESFj is incredibly controlling, and the funny thing is that I'm not even sure he is aware of it.

Arguing too much doesn't help.

I agree on one hand, arguing can certainly exacerbate the issues and become counter productive, in some circumstances, and I have learned in the past few years to "let things go". However, in this instance, "talking" about something, teasing out hidden animosities, I have no problem doing. It goes against sociotype rules for me to not be able to voice my feelings freely. This has come up numerous times between me and ESFj, where I have felt totally within my rights and totally within what is natural for me as a human being, to argue. Stifling freedom of expression in this manner has been a bone of contention that I have had to endure these past 9 months and in fact growing up with other alphas as well. Its the whole "if you don't have anything nice to say, do not say anything at all." I have felt invalidated by, what I perceive to be alpha Fe, total lack of desire to talk about anything that would seem argumentative. For example, if I come home from work and I'm feeling sorta fiesty, then I want to talk about some bullshit I hear on the news, and I want to use rough tones and I want to get uppity and what I want is for it to be viewed as a sorta "game". Around the ESFj, I would feel like he becomes scared of me, he feels he needs to calm me down, and will attempt to do so by literally distracting me with some youtube video, "here watch this..", or he will just openly and obviously change the subject, often talking over what I just said and ignoring it. Often times I play into this technique, and other times when I'm feeling particularly rebellious, I might say a back handed comment like "alright I get it you are just going to talk over me like I DIDN'T just say what I said, nice use of deflection there...you know I'm not a misbehaving child right?" Doing so would be dangerous, however, because I've noticed it exposes the ESFj to his own tricks, which hits a weak point in him.

Arguing is something I need to feel comfortable doing, otherwise I'm in the wrong quadra. If I can't feel I'm allowed to argue, then I don't want to be around you to long.

Sometimes one can tell them straight that they are a terrible person. That might shock them so much that the message might go through. Or else simply tell them that they are exaggerating and explain in a very short and simple way why they are wrong. Then let it pass.

I would never say he is a terrible person, because he isn't, but I get your point. Shocking the message through...yeah see I would see that as playing with fire, as "shock" doesn't go over well. They traditionally ignore Se. (not socionics ignoring I am aware). With this movie theatre cell phone event, I did try and explain why I used it and why I thought it would be okay. And normally in the past I would have just bit my tongue and let it go. I don't know, something about this night made me want to explain why he was wrong and then hear an immediate, "you are right I was wrong." I would have a better chance seeing a unicorn then hear ESFj admit he was wrong in the moment.

But at the end of the day it's my problem, because I can change myself, but I cannot change the ESE. So I try to respond in such a way to solve the problem, if it's worth solving. Trying to be mature helps.

Yes, very good advice. You can't teach a frog to fly, nor a eagle to croak. At most times I am fairly flexible and I can appreciate that its him, not me. I'm not perfect though and I will not tolerate being controlled, if I see there is nothing in it for me by acquiescing.

EDIT: H-ESE are almost always very pleasant people

Yes, overwhelmingly ESE is a very pleasant person. Pleasant though does not alway cut the cheese with me.

[wacey]

Honestly, I try to spell out their motivations for them and show them how they're doing what they're mad at me for doing.

I had done this in the past...it only leads to trouble. I sense this is the threshold of what ESFj can tolerate. Once I start pointing out hidden motivations, it hits his vulnerable places and he would immediately become too defensive for anything to proceed. Coying sweetness, and a extremely diplomatic style might suffice, but I can't always be that way at every moment.

FWIW I always give my friends shit if they're on the phone in the movie theater.

I should mention we were in the back row, nobody else around, and ESFj had already seen the movie.

But the passive aggressiveness here would make me not listen to them.

I've seen him do this on a number of occasions out in public. I think the trouble is that he ignores Se, including in himself, so if he was being PA, he would never acknowledge it and even if he did, he would still feel justified. As per Tallmo's idea of "ESE Ti logic".

Interesting he got mad that you told him what to do, when he was basically trying to tell you what to do.

Hypocritical, yes. I can't count the number of times I've noted ESFj being hypocritical about something. Very dangerous to point this out to him and it wouldn't be an argument I would pull up because I know the consequences would be disastrous.

[wacey]

I remember one ESE. She was upset because she took the train without buying a ticket. And she got busted.

She was going on and on about it

Her arguments:

1) "It was Christmas day, imagine! Don't they have anything better to do than creating problems for people during Christmas"

2) "I didn't have any money with me, so how was I supposed to buy the ticket"

3) "Not only did I get a fine, but I also had to pay the price of a single ticket. But I already told them: I don't have any money, because that's the reason why I didn't buy the ticket in the first place"

Me: Well, having no money is not a valid reason for travelling without a ticket

ESE: Yeah, but on Chrstimas day!

Me: As far as I know there is no discount on the trains during Chrstmas.

At this point her ILE boyfriend turned to her "c'mon, it was your own fault, lets change the subject"

See this strikes a nerve in me with alphas in general. If there is something worth talking about, then I want to talk about it. even if its for several hours and in calm tones, with the conversation between activities. With alphas people I have seen in my own life, going over topics for to long is almost taboo. How many times has ESFj tried to "change the subject" when there is something that I want to talk about? Moving away from negative emotions (+Fe) indeed. It's incredibly invalidating and only serves to create resentment, or worse, to make me think you are weak. Which is fine if you want to be that way no problem. Everyone has a place. But I mean weak in the sense that you will never get to know me, I will always have sorta barriers up about what I think you could and could not handle, and so I will treat you differently, or talk about different things with you, or cut you out entirely from certain aspects of my life. For example, telling you I went one place that evening, when in fact I went another, but don't want to tell you about it because it was a "special" evening for me and you have shown me in the past you can't be trusted to understand.

There is something about my quadra (i have no idea what that is) that the people there want to "know the truth" no matter what. They will call out liars, but do so in a way that doesn't cause the liar to go on the defensive. It's a kinda game, forever testing and it creates bonding and feelings of closeness, is how I describe it.

[wacey]

that reminds me of the time my boss scheduled me on a day I wasn't available, which was documented and widely known, and I told him 3 times in advance that I wasn't going to be there. So the day came and went and I didn't show up. I showed up to my next shift and he was like "I thought you quit!!" and I told him "I told you 3 times I wouldn't be there" and his response was "oh you know, no one can keep track of all that!" I mean not like its your job or anything to do exactly that. It was like making a case for why he should be replaced. But anyway, he was legit happy I was still choosing to work there, but at the same time angry that I didn't show up for "my shift" without at all admitting this entire situation was a problem of his own making via a failure to simply do his job (an easy fix would have just been to schedule a replacement, which was not at all problematic). As far as he was concerned I was kind of a bad worker but he liked me, and was glad I was still going to work there, because hiring someone new would be more work. like he was the benevolent actor beset by problems all around but could not at all see how he was responsible for the entire thing. the irony is he will go to the grave thinking the additional work he would potentially have to do by hiring someone new is just the product of bad behavior of others and not all a consequence he would have brought on by failing to do his own job and thus creating more work for himself. failure to see the path of least resistance would be just to do his job correctly and that 99% of his problems are self made, and the boisterous moral sheen they put on it only exacerbates things

Yes this quality is very annoying. Especially since the only solution is to "let them have it" - have their wrong conceptions and ideas of events. It takes a mature mind to allow people their misconceptions. So I can understand your perspective. This does, in essence, relate to what I was talking about with my ESFj: where they are hypocritical, in this instance towards power structures and individual "right of ways", ie: I'm telling you, you cant use your cell phone, but you can't tell me to stuff it. People without this kind of self awareness can be frustrating, especially if you are not driven to get along with them in the first place.

[Bertrand]

Yes this quality is very annoying. Especially since the only solution is to "let them have it" - have their wrong conceptions and ideas of events. It takes a mature mind to allow people their misconceptions. So I can understand your perspective. This does, in essence, relate to what I was talking about with my ESFj: where they are hypocritical, in this instance towards power structures and individual "right of ways", ie: I'm telling you, you cant use your cell phone, but you can't tell me to stuff it. People without this kind of self awareness can be frustrating, especially if you are not driven to get along with them in the first place.

yeah but in the end people just avoid them so its actually kind of a terrible self imposed fate they bring upon themselves, so a degree of sympathy is easy to conjure in light of that... still, roommates would probably be too much for me

my mom is like this and her entire life is like a rotating cast of characters in her social drama because she can't hang onto anyone... she's actually pretty damned isolated in terms of Fi/Ni

then again Fi ignoring hardly seems to notice or care, so whatever

[Skepsis]

They can have all the control they want.......in the bedroom!

[wacey]

There are several things going on here.

1) relations of benefit are tense long-term
2) Se vs. Si

One thing often overlooked with the ESE is we have very sensitive senses-we feel sensations pretty easily. For example: on the subway last week this lady just started clipping her nails in the seat beside me. The sound of someone clipping their nails was annoying to my Si. I shot her a look hoping she would stop. She didn't so I moved seats as it looked like she was pulling out a bottle of nail polish. This was not my Fe that was offended. It was my Si. Body odor, unpleasant sights, and bad manners offend SLIs more than anyone and they are the least Fe valuing. So sometimes people doing stuff with their phone, chewing noises, taking off shoes in public, applying make-up in public, hygiene issues is more of an Si offensive thing than an Fe thing. I need to get away from them. If you are in a movie or on the subway you can't easily move.

Thank-you for pointing this out. My answer would be : OH I am definitely aware about Si valuing here. His "noise machine" he NEEDS to have EVER night in order to sleep, comes to mind. Keeping this in context: yes, the cell phone in the theatre may have been triggering his Si needs, I acknowledge that. I think at the time, I considered the facts:
-we are in the back row
-the rest of the audience was below us
-the phone was incredibly dim, dimmer then the floor lights
-i held the phone next to my stomach
-ESFj had already seen this movie
-movie was shit
-i was capable of being discreet
-the consequences to everyone, including him were negligible.

All of these considerations I did within a few seconds. I even tested out first by using the phone for only a matter of seconds. I knew it was going to "be an issue" as ESFj became uncomfortable immediately after I started using it, but under these circumstances, I did not care. I knew I would hear about it, but I was prepared long in advance: "don't tell me what to do, I can do what I want" (which is right, by the way, an adult can do what he wants if he is not harming anybody and is following the law - and most social rules of etiquette, although those CAN be broken).

See, I can appreciate Si values, I'm not totally blind to them. And in most cases I am incredibly tolerant, accepting, and pay attention: comfort, convenience, food, health, style, sensation, ect. I would never try and coerce ESFj into doing something uncomfortable and in all honesty I KNOW it would not work anyway. They ignore Se. They could withstand a direct show of wills. Quick anecdote: ESFj and I went to the fair together. We got on a huge swinging ride that went like 10 stories into the air and twirled you around. I looked over and the ESFj was having a great time! yahoo! Later, we get off the ride, I ask, how was the ride?? He said it was great, but I wish I brought gloves because my hands are freezing, they should pad the metal handles with plastic......... or another time, he goes to Haiwai and I'm getting texts telling me how uncomfortable the hotel rooms are.....I'm thinking, erm, you are in Hawaii why are you so worried about that?? Anyway, I recognize this is Si concerns, and like I said I'm not totally blind to them. It's odd, nothing the ESFj does, or none of his motivations are a mystery to me. Like I can see him perfectly, but its not two ways. I have more then several dozens of times felt totally misunderstood by him, and its not for lack of trying.

My LSI has this annoying alarm clock. He insists on using it because he is so insensitive to external stimuli and travels for work so has trouble adjusting to different time zones and needs it. It is stressful on my Si that I unconsciously would wake up right before it went off to prevent the sound from waking me.

ESFj are so giving and so accommodating. It can be your best qualities. And I give you total props for that. I just wish that it was reversed, and you saw how accommodating other types are towards you, in this case about Se matters.

LSI and I have been together long term and we get along well but the Se vs. Si that can be very tricky because Se users can feel "bull dozing" and over-powering.

If I did or said half of what I thought I would be labelled a monster. For instance: him and I are shopping and we are loading up the car trunk. I might literally run with the cart to car, I might very quickly toss things inside of the truck and say "let's go let's go let's go let's go!" I might push him around the front to the drivers seat and toss the keys at him...but if I didn't do it with the "right" Fe, or I was pushing against some Si concern, he would become uncomfortable. See for me, this behaviour is very natural and fluid, I'm not upset, I'm not hurt, I'm not angry, I just want to hurry the fuck up and move...its fun for me in a moment like that. I'm having fun. And this style of "fun", from what I have observed, almost seems threatening to him. I look like I am bullying him. Which I'm not. So there are these misunderstandings like that, but I have a million such examples if you were curious.

You are already psychologically in a position of power by the asymmetrical relationship now add Se to that and it will be a challenge on the ESE. Maybe they rebel against you because they sense the relationship dynamic?

Recently we went to see a theatre performance in the city. I was driving and all I wanted to do was grab him on the knee and shake his leg, or put my arm around him and have fun and laugh and "amp up" the nights events. The we went to a restaurant and, like he ALWAYS does, sat in the seat facing the crowd and left the seat with the back to the crowd for me. I didn't think twice about it as I pushed him from behind and said, "nope, I'm sitting here." And then the ice storm...he pouted again, and became SUPER upset at me...and the more I questioned him the more pissy he became. All I could do was just sit there dumbfounded that he was wrecking the good mood whilst we were in the downtown city supposed to be having a good time. But then I know this ESFj, so I just ignored him and waited for the food to come. We were both hungry, and since so much of our friendship circles around food, we both started to warm up to each other as we ate. It was an event that I wouldn't think twice over because in my mind I was just being "me". I felt bad about it btw, and apologized profusely. This happened last week, so maybe his current defensiveness at the movie theatre is linked to that event? I guess he is feeling shifting power dynamic, as I am not as "demure" as I was when I first moved in. I think I sensed so many months ago that he wanted to wear the big boy pants.

Also we are Ne HA which is to be perfect. When we are around other people who are not following "the social rules" it stresses us.

He took me out for dinner on my birthday and while we were waiting I saw a table in the back corner. I had not heard the waitress say "I will clean it" and I figured I could just waltz over and sit down there. I hear a venomous "wacey, wacey, WACEY" and its my ESFj telling me to wait because that is the "right thing to do". Usually I would just play naive "oh I'm a INTj thank-you I'm so dumb", but this time I just said some lippy comment that normally I would have struck down inside my head first, sprinkled with heaps of sarcasm, "thank-God I have you to tell me what's appropriate here, what would I have done if I just walked over there, it would have been the end of the world." Kinda confused emotive response from him after that. I wish he would just lighten up, like 25 degrees. I hate how its come to this because we are such good friends. I mean, do I always like hearing "gooOOOoooOOOOOoood morning NURSE!" everymorning? no. But I do appreciate just someone who is happy around me always...its actually going to make me cry a bit thinking about it.

We all have a hidden agenda and they are ALL annoying. lol.

I would love to hear your thoughts on these topics as time goes on.

I have an SLE friend who needs a lot of attention and love and their Fe hidden agenda demands a lot of attention and energy from people around them.

Yes, I know what you are talking about. They need positivity, which borders on acclaim. Not all SLE are narcs by the way. Many are the kind of people that would take their shirts right off their back for you if you needed one. Give you their last piece of bread. Which ESE does as well.

They often get very loud, swearing, going into rants when they feel stressed- it is not everyone's cup of tea but I don't say anything. At some point we need to accept one another.

You know offering them a "proverbial cup of tea" will work in the short term, but if you really want to help them in moments like this, go into with them. Go in, dig, squeeze out. The term "all bark and no bite" comes to mind. Don't be afraid of it is what I've noticed. They would never hurt you, they just want to spaz for a bit.

Wacey this ESE is especially annoying to you because of your asymmetrical relationship. Do yourselves both a favor and avoid spending time together!

I don't know about the socionic intertypes here, but I do agree, I try and avoid spending time as often as possible, which is so hard for ESE because he wants me around all the time! "Where did you go, what did you do, when will you be back, remember our plans...."

[wacey]

yeah but in the end people just avoid them so its actually kind of a terrible self imposed fate they bring upon themselves, so a degree of sympathy is easy to conjure in light of that... still, roommates would probably be too much for me

If there is one quality life endowed me with, it would be stamina.

my mom is like this and her entire life is like a rotating cast of characters in her social drama because she can't hang onto anyone... she's actually pretty damned isolated in terms of Fi/Ni

You Mom seems very caring judging from photos, you are lucky to have a Mom like that, bud. But yeah, I agree, they can seem isolated in a way that elicits sympathy in me.

then again Fi ignoring hardly seems to notice or care, so whatever

Mmmhm, true, they are numb to it. "Is there a problem if you can't tell there is a problem?" <-----that sort of thing.

[wacey]

They can have all the control they want.......in the bedroom!

Oh trust me they get that too. Even if you think they are giving you all the pleasure. Your pleasure is under their control. I hope you like toys, and candles, and soft blankets, and evil, giggling laughter....

[Skepsis]

Oh trust me they get that too. Even if you think they are giving you all the pleasure. Your pleasure is under their control. I hope you like toys, and candles, and soft blankets, and evil, giggling laughter....

Actually I do, haha

[wacey]

Actually I do, haha

Then you are in good company.

[Bertrand]

true, my mom is awesome. you are right. I never give her enough credit and its a real flaw of mine

[wacey]

true, my mom is awesome. you are right. I never give her enough credit and its a real flaw of mine

well you are still young and it's not unusual. when it is the right time and it feels right maybe someday you will give her more credit. maybe she doesn't need that though from you right now, and her pride for you is enough, judging by how she looks in photos. ....

[Bertrand]

well you are still young and it's not unusual. when it is the right time and it feels right maybe someday you will give her more credit. maybe she doesn't need that though from you right now, and her pride for you is enough, judging by how she looks in photos. ....

well there's also the fact she overlooked a lot of abuse (and in doing so facilitated it), but that doesn't zero out her other good qualities and I should acknowledge those more

[wacey]

well there's also the fact she overlooked a lot of abuse (and in doing so facilitated it), but that doesn't zero out her other good qualities and I should acknowledge those more

Yeah I try and find that happy medium with my own parents: respecting the hardships and unfairnesses, at the same time acknowledging the good things.

[Bertrand]

Yeah I try and find that happy medium with my own parents: respecting the hardships and unfairnesses, at the same time acknowledging the good things.

absolutely, thank you

I believe God gave me what he did for a reason and I should show some gratitude every once in a while

[wacey]

absolutely, thank you

I believe God gave me what he did for a reason and I should show some gratitude every once in a while

you're welcome ......ANYWAY, back to the thread.

Are you meaning I should be more grateful towards ESE? Because I think I am super grateful.

[Bertrand]

you're welcome ......ANYWAY, back to the thread.

Are you meaning I should be more grateful towards ESE? Because I think I am super grateful.

naw I meant I should be more grateful... you seem really genuine and humble and I am not trying to make some backhanded jab at you, I really appreciated the perspective you lent me

i want to inject a little positivity into this thread, I feel like Jamie Foxx is ESE and he's totally freakin awesome and I like him a lot just amazing talent and you can tell he's coming from such a good place its so genuinely uplifting

[wacey]

naw I meant I should be more grateful... you seem really genuine and humble and I am not trying to make some backhanded jab at you, I really appreciated the perspective you lent me

On the surface I had my suspicions thats what you had meant, now I can see you don't. The real reason I asked if you think if I should be more grateful is because I was genuinely curious, maybe I should be...? You have a ESE parent and so you would know as well, maybe that's what you are telling me here without you being aware.

i want to inject a little positivity into this thread, I feel like Jamie Foxx is ESE and he's totally freakin awesome and I like him a lot just amazing talent and you can tell he's coming from such a good place its so genuinely uplifting

I think its important at this time to clarify that I don't think ESE and myself is an all negative relationship. Nor do I want to use this thread as a way to slash ESE. Just because I am frustrated by my experiences, that have a similar pattern over the 9 months I have lived with him, does mean mean I think ESE are bad people. I don't see that there is a need to inject positivity into this thread. And yet I do acknowledge your good intentions and for that I thank-you.

I only strive to understand and discuss the ESE need for control and how they go about doing that. If I use personal subjective anecdotes that is superfluous to my main goal. That's just how my socionics works in real time.

[wacey]

Not 100% sure but this feels very benefactor :https://youtu.be/xo-vGb78q5Q.
Nick Lachey is SLE. Jessica is probably ESE.

I can say Jessica does seem like a ESE. The scene where they are eating dinner just moaning to each other, with Jessica attempting to entice Nick, hits me waaaay to close to home.

You can feel the condescending attitude form him towards her- couple years late they divorced. FWIW she is now with an ex football player LSI for like 9 years.

ITR matters

I don't think I am entirely condescending towards my ESE roomy, I think that I hide it much better then that. But I understand where you are coming from here.

[Bertrand]

On the surface I had my suspicions thats what you had meant, now I can see you don't. The real reason I asked if you think if I should be more grateful is because I was genuinely curious, maybe I should be...? You have a ESE parent and so you would know as well, maybe that's what you are telling me here without you being aware.



I think its important at this time to clarify that I don't think ESE and myself is an all negative relationship. Nor do I want to use this thread as a way to slash ESE. Just because I am frustrated by my experiences, that have a similar pattern over the 9 months I have lived with him, does mean mean I think ESE are bad people. I don't see that there is a need to inject positivity into this thread. And yet I do acknowledge your good intentions and for that I thank-you.

I only strive to understand and discuss the ESE need for control and how they go about doing that. If I use personal subjective anecdotes that is superfluous to my main goal. That's just how my socionics works in real time.

I agree with what you're saying here, I just feel like people won't always be on the same page so its important to show good intentions and maybe spark some interesting conversation by deliberately trying to expose the other side of the coin. Like i agree neither of us is probably down on ESE, but I still think its important to demonstrate that sometimes. I don't really know what your relationship is toward anyone, so I just sort of speak for myself when I say I should be more grateful and wanting to look on the bright side so to speak

I feel like ESE gets shit on a lot, or at least "seemingly" gets shit on a lot. But I was thinking about how theyre hypersensitive to certain things, but I think all 16 types basically are, its just ESEs gets less respect than some people's, but it doesn't make it any less real, or certainly, less important to them. Like when I fly off the handle its because some really tiny part of the information spectrum is way out of whack from my point of view, and people likewise think I'm acting crazy. I imagine ESE goes through exactly the same thing in their own way. Maybe their strong sensing and feeling makes it more overt and thus they draw greater attention to their foibles but its not like we don't all have them. Not that that excuses bad behavior, but the older I get the more I realize people aren't typically behaving badly on purpose and there's usually some underlying nugget of truth they're perceiving thats driving them to do what they're doing. The question just becomes if their response is justifiable in a larger context which is where myopia becomes a liability not necessarily a strength, thus we require social feedback. ESE tends to dominate the social sphere so isn't in the habit of being on the receiving end of social feedback, rather they prefer to give it, so to speak, which is a dynamic that perhaps builds resentment and over reactions on both sides as I see it...

[wacey]

The question just becomes if their response is justifiable in a larger context which is where myopia becomes a liability not necessarily a strength, thus we require social feedback. ESE tends to dominate the social sphere so isn't in the habit of being on the receiving end of social feedback, rather they prefer to give it, so to speak, which is a dynamic that perhaps builds resentment and over reactions on both sides as I see it...

Yes...he didn't get the kind of feedback he was used to and this pissed him off. Which is rare to see, but its something that has between us a half dozen times...where I don't "fall in line" and he has no say in it...even a childish "show" of might by moving to another seat in a theatre we went together to see. Social feedback is a good term for it. Him being on the receiving end was what I was talking about earlier with "reset points", where I essentially go "um.No I'm not going to listen to you nor your cues and I will blatantly show you that". I'm speculating this is an act of mutiny in alpha circles. Especially since I'm not a mutinous ILE who clearly wants​ to be a part of "the fold". I think it leaves him unbalanced and it comes across, to me as densely block-headed.

[Grendel]

is inherently a thousand times more tyrannical because of its need for the effort of others in materializing its long term goals. is a tired old hobbit that wants to be left the fuck alone.

[wacey]

is inherently a thousand times more tyrannical because of its need for the effort of others in materializing its long term goals. is a tired old hobbit that wants to be left the fuck alone.

Maybe Si for SLI. SI for ESE is more like a contestant on a cooking show.

[Bertrand]

Yes...he didn't get the kind of feedback he was used to and this pissed him off. Which is rare to see, but its something that has between us a half dozen times...where I don't "fall in line" and he has no say in it...even a childish "show" of might by moving to another seat in a theatre we went together to see. Social feedback is a good term for it. Him being on the receiving end was what I was talking about earlier with "reset points", where I essentially go "um.No I'm not going to listen to you nor your cues and I will blatantly show you that". I'm speculating this is an act of mutiny in alpha circles. Especially since I'm not a mutinous ILE who clearly wants​ to be a part of "the fold". I think it leaves him unbalanced and it comes across, to me as densely block-headed.

yeah their steadfast conviction in operating from an impliedly superior vantage point while at the same time missing so much is basically characteristic of Ni polrs in general. when they double down on the creative instead of taking a step back and the Se starts to come out is when they really start to amplify the consequences... this is why Ni polrs come off as dangerous to me, not because they're overtly aggressive all the time (and thus have honed their voilitional sensing in such a way as to bring it under some semblance of control) but because they're the type that would throw their life away and yours just over some petty meaningless feud, thus its often better not to get caught up with them. Which is like you saying "letting them have it"--but its like what's the alternative? They will take things to the absolute brink and win every game of chicken, not from a place of courage but one of total foolhardiness.

these types I feel especially need to be moderated by duality because they're so extreme by their nature, they're very much on the edges of the socion in terms of differentiation, which is interesting because if you think of duality splitting an entire human capacity into 2 equal parts but distributed differently according to dyad, you can see that LII and EII handle extreme problems and are extremely powerful but the trade off is the liabilities that from an intuitive standpoint manifest most clearly in the reckless behavior of their duals. likewise ESE and LSE handle difficult sensing problems, but as each pair is at the near absolute margins of the socion those problems are extreme by their nature and rarely present themselves in day to day life. thus day to day life and interaction with these types takes on a ridiculous character sometimes, at least from the point of view of the core quadra. ESE comes across often as like shooting a canon at passing fleas

people like Jamie Foxx of course have turned that armament into a powerful source of positive emotion and are of course likewise astounding in what they can do. people like him are like the elon musk of Fe Se

[wacey]

yeah their steadfast conviction in operating from an impliedly superior vantage point while at the same time missing so much is basically characteristic of Ni polrs in general. when they double down on the creative instead of taking a step back and the Se starts to come out is when they really start to amplify the consequences... this is why Ni polrs come off as dangerous to me, not because they're overtly aggressive all the time (and thus have honed their voilitional sensing in such a way as to bring it under some semblance of control) but because they're the type that would throw their life away and yours just over some petty meaningless feud, thus its often better not to get caught up with them. Which is like you saying "letting them have it"--but its like what's the alternative?
They will take things to the absolute brink and win every game of chicken, not from a place of courage but one of total foolhardiness.

Afterwards in the car he said if I keep trying to talk to him about it, "then you can find another place to live." Talk about all or nothing.

these types I feel especially need to be moderated by duality because they're so extreme by their nature, they're very much on the edges of the socion in terms of differentiation, which is interesting because if you think of duality splitting an entire human capacity into 2 equal parts but distributed differently according to dyad, you can see that LII and EII handle extreme problems and are extremely powerful but the trade off is the liabilities that from an intuitive standpoint manifest most clearly in the reckless behavior of their duals. likewise ESE and LSE handle difficult sensing problems, but as each pair is at the near absolute margins of the socion those problems are extreme by their nature and rarely present themselves in day to day life. thus day to day life and interaction with these types takes on a ridiculous character sometimes, at least from the point of view of the core quadra. ESE often is like shooting a canon at a flea

I'm not so sure of this, it feels unformed still in my mind. With ESE, he actually feels strongly rooted in his world and inter-personal relationships, not fringe at all? He is in the arts and cultural community by trade, very heavy Fe/Ne/Si focus.

people like Jamie Foxx of course have turned that armament into a powerful source of positive emotion and are of course likewise astounding in what they can do. people like him are like the elon musk of Fe Se

I havent explored Jamie to much.

[Bertrand]

I don't mean fringe as in socially schizoid thats actually a property of their duals, but rather fringe from the point of view of psychological differentiation from within the socion. they actually penetrate right into the heart of social activity like a heat seeking missle, kind of how LII goes straight to the nuts and bolts of an interesting idea. but its the way in which they do this that is extreme and fringe in the sense that its at a much higher level of intensity relative to the rest of the types

in other words the way LII can get hung up on a piece of logic, ESE can fixate on some kind of social detail, the dyad is fringe in the sense that those proclivities are not considered "the norm" which is largely based on an aggregate of of prevailing values rooted in beta/gamma (sometimes delta).. it comes off as "extreme" because most people do not need that level of social detail brought to bear because most people are not LII. its like they play a powerful game, but it is one removed from the mainstream. alpha in general is very much like that. capable of handling certain very difficult problems, but sort of exists in a bubble because of it. they say betas should be kept in zoos, perhaps some kind of massive arcology would suit alpha I don't mean any offense by that, I'm sure gamma and delta could likewise be analogized in a similar manner

i feel like ESE maximalism is oriented at robespierre in case he like builds a doomsday device (because thats how strong his Ti is), but the problem is using a phone at the theatre is not the same thing as developing a world ending biological plague or some such

[Memph]

Hmm my ESE friend is pretty chill but there was one incident I know happened with an SLE (I think? not 100% sure) prof that got pretty dramatic, I kind of wish I was there to better understand how she behaves in more... lets call it stressful situations, although I'm familiar with the context and she did tell me what happened from her POV.

So basically she's the leader of a geology student group planning a field trip to Arizona. The dean suggests two profs to invite along to serve as responsible persons/adults and hopefully talk to us about what they know of the geology there. I think this was done informally in terms of what exactly the profs were expected to do, they didn't have any officially designated responsibilities, but seeing as the students had to pay to go and the profs weren't not, I think it is implied that something was expected of them.

Anyways, ESE already had a somewhat negative view of the SLE prof as "bad news", since he has a reputation for being a bit of asshole, and I have to admit he has said some things that show he has no filter (ex comparing another prof to a rat with tunnel vision... most of us don't really like that prof but still). It did seem like she was looking for reasons to criticize him especially when he tried to do unconventional things like bringing his girlfriend on the trip, which was kinda meh, mixing business with pleasure like that, but she was trying to make it out like he wasn't going to make it cost more when not really, she was staying in the same room as him, plus he decided to drive down which would save us the cost of a flight and car rental. Although since he asked to have us pay for his gas we assumed that he'd be taking students in his car but he assumed that we'd be packing 5 per car and he'd have his car to just him and his girlfriend. She didn't bring up these concerns and others (like how he hadn't made any effort to explain the geology to the students) because I guess she wanted to avoid conflict, so she just talked about those concerns to some of her friends, I guess to see if they felt her concerns were valid. From what I can tell none of her friends pushed back.

Then on the 3rd night was the final straw, we wake up and find the prof is not at the motel and disappeared without a trace and without a way of contacting him. We go on with the day's activities and her and her friends run into him at a pharmacy later in the evening. They ask him where he was and he says he went to a different motel because he decided the one we booked was a "shithole" (I think it later turned out he had some sort of allergic reaction? but maybe rather than admit some "physical weakness" he'd rather say it was a shithole?) and says he didn't know where he was supposed to go to join us for the day's events since we weren't with him to tell him. ESE was pissed off he didn't tell us of the problem and just disappeared and felt like this was the last straw and demanded he's pay for the 2nd day at that motel since because he should've cancelled the 2nd night to get a refund when he decided to leave. SLE says that's not his responsibility and he paid for the new hotel out of his own pocket and they basically start trading shots in an Se battle. SLE about how we're barely paying for any of his expenses so we should cut him slack and she says we're still paying for his accommodations while the students have to pay for everything out of their own pocket, and starts listing her previously unspoken grievances that have been building up over the last while. SLE just amps up the pressure acting all angry and raising his voice until his girlfriend basically breaks things up and SLE and ESE go their own way. Once SLE can't see her anymore ESE starts crying and basically doesn't know how to feel. She asks her EII friend to write up an email to send to her supervisor to explain what happened because EII knew how she felt better than she did herself. >_>

There were definitely some times in the lead up where I was tempted to steer her towards alternate perspectives to consider in the Alpha NT style, but I didn't want to put her on the spot in front other her friends and didn't really get a chance to talk to her alone. I didn't think the two of them would have gone at each other like that, I wish she would have talked to me for advice first or that I could have been there during the confrontation to help diffuse things...

By the way, Alpha NT style for dealing with this would be either cooly provide possible explanations with Ti in a non-judgmental impersonal way and then present alternative perspectives without insisting that they're correct, just as something for the to consider and think about whether they make sense to the ESE. If I think the ESE is really heading in a dangerous direction, maybe throw them off track and confuse them with Ne smoke and mirrors, and then do the usual Ti-Ne explaining. Also casually mention why the ESE's approach might be problematic.

As for me as LII. I'll definitely do little Fe missteps but at least so far nothing really serious. But like one time in my acknowledgements in a presentation I was kind of random in whether I gave the person's full names or just first name - I think I was just copying how others mentioned those people, but at the end of the presentation one prof called me aside to tell me that it's insulting to give the full names of them men and only first name for the women. FYI for some reason she overlooked that I gave the full name for one woman but not the 2 others, I also would have given the first name only for one group of men if two of them didn't have the same first name, but anyways, even though I didn't intend anything sexist I can see how being inconsistent like that can give weird impressions. Or when my supervisor was talking to me and ESE about how he has 4 MSc students starting this year and they better not finish at the same time because he doesn't want to have to review all their final drafts all at once so I told him I'm not in a rush to finish and ESE is like "OMG don't say things like that!". And then I clarify that I meant I was considering looking for work during the summer so I can get field experience so that would mean maybe finishing a semester later.

[Rebelondeck]

All Ejs and Ips need to feel in control; they just express it differently. Ejs need to directly and actively engage others, and seem to think the best defence is an offense. Ips like to remain in their castles and engage others from behind walls that they use as protection; they tend to be purely defensive until they think that they're under attack but this is still a form of control. The difference between the two is that Ejs remain on the battlefield and telegraph their blows while you rarely see the Ip coming. Ijs and Eps seem better equipped to remain aloof or disengage, which creates many other issues.

a.k.a. I/O