does anyone have any experiences and feedback for this?
Question for enneagram: are type 4 and 6 ideal match types for each other?
does anyone have any experiences and feedback for this?
I really liked your video
maybe its just projection on my part, but a lot of this is sounding like the dynamic between Fi and Te egos (4 and 6, respectively). I know I dated a SLI and you very much described a lot of what we went through, especially about triangulating and perceiving the other triangulating. also about inadvertently pushing eachother's buttons because of how they're vulnerable nodes in the system of the other person but we fail to see exactly how hurtful it is to question those in the moment, especially under stress and then it can create a big blowup (the things we want to believe but are least confident in we often try the hardest to convince others of and the experience of doubt [1] is in many ways the functional dichotomous opposite that exists to bring balance--so Fi and Te types would be very much in a position to push eachother's buttons, especially reactive insecure types). but the idea is something like each person is trying to make sense of things but from either the head/heart so the systems can fundamentally be driving at similar goals but going about it in different ways but that similar goal allows for a lot of mutual understanding, but the different ways also create misunderstanding at critical moments etc
I will say one thing that is hard for me to understand is how people can feel "abandoned" like either they're lost in the universe as with the 6 or something inside has left the building (4). Its like missing either a strong internal sense of self or a strong sense of external meaning to the world from within which one can feel secure and purposeful and how the two are very much related, but its like how can someone just not have that stuff? but also almost no one admits to it, do most people, who don't know of the enneagram, but who are nevertheless sixes, would they admit, "yeah I'm trying to basically trying to construct a worldview from within which I feel like there is a meaningful order in relation as to myself within the universe and I understand it sufficiently well such that I have confidence in myself and what I'm doing and where I'm going"? I wonder would type 6 find the solution to their "abandonment" in another person or is it always going to be some broader quest wherein other people aren't enough to make them feel safe, rather its got to be some kind of "head" structure that is the real thing they want? because I find that kind of sad, in a strange way. its like they could never see another person as a person but rather as something within this structure they're building primarily in order to feel safe. it makes me think people or no people is incidental, because they could do with or without them as long as the structure was "right." on some level that sounds healthy--being an independent person, but it also seems like it trivializes the role other people play in feeling "meaning" and "safety" to a large extent--and I wonder if their sense of alienation isn't actually a product of that
I feel like it is somewhat interrelated because if that is in fact the case it seems to me the problem is not so much not understanding the universe but not actually understanding yourself because that "sense of abandonement" by the universe seems foremost to me to be a failure of Fi perspective from the get go. like you don't need to think it all out and try to impose a kind of subjective-objective understanding of the universe to feel safe if you just realize the point is not to understand it all or feel safe to begin with. I guess that's what makes it a neurotic need? in a sense prosecuting the goal of the need can in many ways drive one deeper into suffering because the need itself is based on an erroneous presupposition--"figuring things out" in the triumphant sense would be to somehow give up the need to begin with, not schematizing everything in a subjective framework to such an extent you've got "control" and "safety" and "meaning"--rather control safety and meaning would flow best from recognizing one needs to accept the universe as fundamentally on some level alien, and only then one can realize we're sort of in it together and that's ok, rather than trying to subjugate that alien aspect all the time. in other words, security is not in trying to "think away" that alien aspect of the universe, but to accept it as a core part of the human experience and "make a home on it" in some sense because its that aspect which people share with one another, its not like everyone else has it figured out and you're running behind [2]. same goes for 4s with their sense of self. no one has that strong sense of self, in some sense its the "expectation there should be more" that is not entirely supported that distinguishes 6s and 4s from others and makes them feel different, or lacking, but that is not actually the case, its only their heightened expectation that sets them apart. its like the need has in some sense been manufactured by the individual rather than imposed on them by reality and reflected in the objective being of everyone else.. and to transcend the issue is not to prosecute it to the end but rather give up the expectation and let the need dissolve. easier said than done I guess, but still
[1] Jung says something like doubt is the product of a need for verification which is achieved naturally when it passes the "checks" of the dichotomous function, i.e.: Fi must be balanced by Te for it to not produce significant doubt, and attempts to conquer doubt by doubling down on the source function is what leads to a lot of aggression, defensiveness, and conflict (a unilateral attempt to conquer doubt illegitimately by forcefully trying to impose itself on others without actually coming into the proper understanding of itself which would alleviate the doubt in a healthy productive, true, way. rather a kind of "pretending" where if they can force other people to accept it, its as if that process happened, but it really didn't--an unnatural, "artificial," fundamentally unsustainable, unsatisfying, solution).
[2] I feel like if they could build a bridge to other people in that way it might remove the sense of abandonement which isn't so much coming from the universe as they assume it to be, but its a product of their relationship to other people on the basis of their neurotic worldview (namely that the universe has abandoned them, not everyone else too, in essence creating a self fulfilling prophecy)
in this way I see type 6 as kind of an imbalance of Te problem (needs Fi to unravel its doubt, not more Te--that is the NN that deepens itself) and 4 similarly but in reverse. I see myself as 1w9 and it seems like Ni and Se are in a similar relationship (the complex relationship between "action" and "rightness")
Last edited by Bertrand; 05-28-2017 at 07:49 AM.
This is a great video on the similarities and differences between 4s and 6s. I've watched the entire video, and I'd agree with all of it.Originally Posted by Carrie
Now, does it mean that 4s and 6s are ideal for each other? She did not get into this question, and it would not have been my first thought after watching this.
I suppose the question comes up because of the similarities described in the video. And how the two types may complement each other. Besides my own theory regarding one's "Enneagram Dual", I'd say that in general, a relationship between two Reactive types is going to be more tricky than other combinations. Just one person needs to be slightly below average health, and the relationship could easily fall apart.
For a relationship between 6s and 4s to work, both need to be at least around Health Level 4, or Level 5 at most. The fickleness of this relationship makes me think that it is likely not "ideal" as a whole. Personally, I am a fan of 6-9 relationships. 9s have the greatest ability to calm down a 6. Unhealthier 6s do better with 9s than with 4s. The same applies to 4s and 8s – they do better with a 9 than with each other. 9s smooth everything over.
Having said that, while 9s can be good for 8s, 8s can be detrimental to 9s when they are too unhealthy and vicious. Unhealthier 8s are probably best left single, because they are just gonna wreck the relationship and likely the other person's spirit.This applies to many (if not all) of the types, but with 8s, especially so. Besides that, I've seen a bunch of double-6 relationships (mainly between SX and Se ego types), and they seem to work fine enough. At last, I might slightly favour 6-8 over 6-4, especially when the 6 is female. But the difference is not huge.
P.S: I was wondering if "she" is actually the OP, haha. If so... great content, keep it up.
No types are ideal for eachother. This is not socionics. There are worse and better matches but thats more to do with instinct stacks imo.
I've encountered one exception, neighboring or overlapping wings, wing-core type similarity, those can help build a bridge more easily sometimes. Same with sharing a tritype fix.
Personally, I think the shared tritype fix is the most important (based on anecdotal evidence). Then, overlapping wings can build a bridge between those people with no tritype similarities to an extent. (For example, my father is 368 and 3w4, so we happen to have a few similar 4-related interests.) If you share none of that, your lifestyles and inner selves are typically too different, and it can be difficult to relate to the other person. That's how Enneagram can also impact the likelihood of Duality. I've found that most of my Duals are the 368 or 378 tritype with either 6w7 core, 7 core, or 8 core. This is actually the main reason why I find it unlikely for me to end up with a Dual.
Ive noticed the people I get along with usually have 4 in their tritype. So that would mean youre drawn to people that have your type in their tritype. But this doesnt make sense because for those people they have been sometimes core 7s or 9s and I dont have 7 nor 9 in my tritype... So I dont know.
Im rarely drawn to people with my tritype.
Also Im drawn to people who are image last because they calm me down from my image neurosises. Im gut last and gut types can just "be" in their body and they amaze me with that because im so obsessed with emotions and thoughts.
I get along best with people who have a 9 fix like myself. Fellow 5 fixes make good conversation partners, we can connect the best on an intellectual level, but I don't find this that attractive on a romantic/sexual level. Fellow 4 fixes... hit or miss. I used to have a thing for those people (mostly back when I identified as gothic), but somehow it is often just "too much", especially when they are 4 core like myself.
If I could create the "perfect" (=favourite) match for me, I'd say he'd be 3w4 (379). There's the 9 fix, the imago attraction for 3 and 7, and the 4 wing.
Yes, its odd with other fours. Some I instantly get annoyed with because of envy (they stick out more than me etc) while some Im more drawn to because I feel like we get eachother. Even then though its like theres only so much we can talk about and do, if that makes sense. Ive had another 4 (496) in my school for years and we talked sometimes but we never got close, for some reason. But we had an intuitive understanding of eachother and sort of eachothers safety net.
Im not going to address the question because I have a strong preference for engaging these questions in terms of how the types are likely to or can play off of each other (as you did very well) than for establishing intertype relationships so to speak for the enneagram. I just wanna say that I really enjoyed your video a hell of a lot (I assume it was yours?)
@Bertrand there's so much I'm interested in addressing there but it's an intimidating wall of ideas to dive into, esp before coffee lol.
Ohh just thought of two people who have been best friends like forever, and they are 639 and 784 respectively so no fix in common buut they are core 6w7 and 7w6 so maybe your theory is right!
I like the 784 but the 639 does nothing for me. Even though thats the soc last out of the two. That tritype doesnt appeal to me. Probably because as a 4 I highly value identity and authenticity and 369 is extremely chameleon-like.
Last edited by maniac; 05-28-2017 at 01:28 PM.
Hm, that sounds like you'd do best with a fellow 4 fix but someone who is not also 4 core?
Probably.. same type couple seem pretty rare though they happen sometimes. I know a couple who both are 4s but with different tritypes and wings. And Marilyn Manson and Lana del Rey have dated I think. Different wings and tritype again. I can see how its different when you are in a relationship as opposed to two platonic same gender people where envy and competition happens especially for 4s. I dont have any experience with a male 4 though. 4w3 men are too feminine for my taste but I am attracted to some 4w5 celebrities. Bob Dylan (when he was young anyway) is one.
reddit enneagram section agrees - https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/c..._pairing_ever/
4/6 pairing can give a relationship just enough friction to keep it psychologically and emotionally stimulating if the couple aren't neurotic. The loyalty of a 6 can be unmatched so for someone with trust issues or who have generally felt unworthy of love it might be just what they need. I don't really think there is an ideal match even in socionics so there's that too.
*didn't watch the video yet.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Not a good match IME.
Which one were you, the 6 or the 4 in your experience?
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
According to Helen Palmer, a 6 and an 8 can work out well.
I feel unstable when I'm with another person who is more emotionally volatile than I am or who needs me to frequently navigate emotional minefields. I guess it depends on the 4. There are things I'd appreciate as well, like the realness and the responsiveness (maybe the latter depends on strength of 5 wing).
I can see problem areas with any enneatype combo though, maybe just due to the nature of the enneagram itself.
I can't remember anything about the video, apparently I liked it.
Take a guess.
I remember you having some shit to say about 6s before. Do you really self type as a 4?
I don't self-type in enneagram.
I find different tritypes are drawn to other tritypes with other qualities
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I'm a 4 and I'm most commonly drawn to 9s (male) because they're unoffensive for the most part and I feel like everyone is always looking at me and judging me negatively so it feels nice being around them. Even though my new 9w8 friend yesterday randomly said "you speak so fucking quiet" and it offended me
Female 9s are usually different in that there's that female rivalry so they are more like 'look at me' (see beyonce sp 9w8, kate bush sx 9w1) while male 9s usually dont give a shit (see ryan gosling sp 9w8, jung sx 9w1)
Then there's times I've liked 7s but it hasn't worked for me. I tried dating a 7w6 and he was so much in his head and I would see how uncomfortable he seemed (even a bit scared) when I told him when I was feeling negatively. I once turned to him while watching a movie and said "I feel dead." and he seemed to freak out, lol. Which made me feel even more uncomfortable. He was also social first.
I've dated a 6 but it wasn't good for other reasons. I like many 6s one of them being Jennifer Lawrence and I could see me getting along good with her
Last edited by maniac; 02-02-2018 at 08:45 AM.
There is such a thing as Enneagram duality and it works on the same principle as Socionics duality: the union and struggle of the complimentary opposites, or antithetic synthesis.
The complimentary opposite types are considered to be the ones that make up a sum of 10, which I've seen being described as "sum 10" relationships, and 4+6 is one of them.
This was also the basis for some Enneagram authors to draw analogies from E to the Tree of Life in Kabbalah, in which the number 10 is significant and is said to symbolize the divinity.
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