Are INTjs nicer than ESFjs?

[Iwantpeace]

Anyways I find both LII and LSIs to be so sweet and it is endearing to me but I am wondering is this an Fe seeking thing? Have you noticed it?

[niffer]

The unconscious super-id, as it is uncontrolled, can have a more pure manifestation than the versions of those same IEs (placed) in(to) ego types.

[ApeironStella]

There are a few layers to that, I think.

First one is the 'obvious' logical conclusion: Treat others the way you would like to be treated and human relationships are really messy without any map, acting nice and polite seems to make it really easier to deal with others than it would with being rude. It is an area of insecurity- You care about how you might effect others, if you are 'disturbing the peace of the group' you are in at the moment. And acting nice/polite is a real shortcut most often to simply keep under radar. People wouldn't easily have a reason to hate you or mess with you, so you don't risk social shame, which can be a weakness for LxIs?

Second one is a bit more hidden in one's psyche, I think. It does have to do with dual-seeking but in the way of why they seek their dual. There is a childish and clumsy quality to their , they need and might try to create a comfortable atmosphere for others, want to cheer others up but find themselves stumped in doing that in a verbal way. I find that with bases, there seems to be an awareness of how words can be easily twisted so doing what you feel as an action, rather than a verbal expression for most part. Spending time with you, buying or making things for you, remembering even some really tiny details you told them about something you care about or something about yourself that caught their attention and stored in their memory is how they find they care about someone/what they do when they care about someone. It is a bit being lost at how to show it and only being able to show it in a rather childish way.

Also, it makes sense for female LIIs you dated being more nice/polite as that is kind of thing that is expected from them for some sort of acceptance/to feel that they are not defective. They most often have to learn how to mimic and act polite sooner as social conditioning tends to be that way, but both genders are same when it comes to truly childish and 'pure', unfiltered joy and attention they give to people they love/care about.

As a female LII who grew up with an LSI mother and ESE father, I find that with my mother, we tend to have this "childish" moments where we just tickle each other or do silly things and laugh over it- as well as like doing things for each other. We are also both known as very polite people outside, yet she still has the sarcasm of an LSI, she simply delivers it with a smile or laugh so you don't really take offense. She is more calculating than she often lets on others, but at heart, she is still pretty much a child.

Also, there is another basic logic of "I feel uncomfortable when someone is sad and asks help from me because I do feel like I should help and do want to help but don't know how and it sucks. I don't want to place that same burden on someone- that would be not fair" vibe to it, maybe. I never really recall seeing my mother ever cry, and I often automatically find myself acting all cheerful and jolly even when I feel sad or simply bad. I am learning to how to show it more, though.

So in short: Both feel like aliens dropped on earth with some really nonsense rules but learns how to play that game to an extent they would be simply left to do their own thing and it is a learned skill more than a natural social skill. It takes years of study of human relations. Their sometimes overly affectionate actions have the "uncontrolled" 'pure' seeking to it, though it is not often a thing they are aware of- more of something they just do.

This is a bit rambley but I hope it made some sense? Funny thing, I am going to watch some anime with my mother right now, actually. We often watch shows together as 'mother&daughter' time. I find that there is a more friend-like relationship with her than an authority like relationship with her, as she really hates people being all limiting and authorian over others, hate 'controlling' other.

[Rebelondeck]

To answer your question: no. My theory is that when types are in environments/situations where normal mode does poorly or coping is difficult, they'll switch to their alternate (dual-like) processing. Therefore in social situations, LIIs frequently become ESE-like while LSIs become EIE-like although far from 100% because it's an unfamiliar mode so sometimes they can go over-the-top. Likewise ESEs may become extremely cold, quiet and reflective after a devastating loss, which is LII-like.

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

It is still bit stiff or too focused.

Like I can seek for a place of detached comfort (=most notably twisting body in weird ways, walking around searching for perfect spot).

[Exodus]

Being "nice" is also about Fi and Si though. I wouldn't say ESEs are nicer than SEIs in the sense of actively trying not to offend people, since they have Fi ignoring and Se demonstrative.

[wacey]

Taste of your own medicine, eh?

[The Exception]

Some LII can be very nice- it might be due to Fe seeking, to Fi role, or to Se POLR. Some LII though, seem quite cold to me. Not intentionally mean so much as just being socially oblivious. I've noticed that more with younger or more immature LIIs.

[wacey]

Some LII can be very nice- it might be due to Fe seeking, to Fi role, or to Se POLR. Some LII though, seem quite cold to me. Not intentionally mean so much as just being socially oblivious. I've noticed that more with younger or more immature LIIs.

I've noticed older LII can be cranky grumps.

[The Exception]

I've noticed older LII can be cranky grumps.

Yeah, it probably depends on the person.

[Adam Strange]

I've noticed older LII can be cranky grumps.

How is that different from younger LII's?

[wacey]

Yeah, it probably depends on the person.

Totally.

[Pole]

Hmmm. For me I'm just polite and pleasant for practical reasons. I avoid drama by not threatening others... also, my mother drilled manners and and being lady like into my head from a very young age, I am no where near as strict as she would have preferred, far from it, but at least I can tone it down or dial it up when needed. Also, what else am I supposed to do as a Ti-dom? I feel lost socially and try to avoid talking to people as much as possible, it's my default.

[niffer]

"Niceness" probably has nothing to do with sociotype, also...

Like I know plenty of ethical types who are internally screaming and just barely suppressing their sociopathy, like me.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It is an area of insecurity- You care about how you might effect others, if you are 'disturbing the peace of the group' you are in at the moment.

Yeah it's a way to keep under the radar though the reasons why are usually more devious. Being cruel often feels honest but it lacks leverage, for example- somebody could outwardly say to your face that they think your a piece of shit- or they could be nice to your face but deep down secretly agree with the person who was rude. How would you ever know? Only by analyzing deeply and looking beyond the veils of nice or mean. Fond feelings also make you yourself easier to control, sadists are all about control- so they lack affection towards others.

Some people though of course are just genuinely nice, and some are genuinely mean and it's that bloody simple, but "politeness" has an aura of fakeness. When looking at abuse I am more concerned how they would treat that person if nobody else was looking - not their two faced personality of politeness. John Wayne Gacy was also 'polite' and so are many serial killers. It's so dumb to be Cced by it. I think people who worship direct sadists are idiots as well... but I can understand that it can feel 'refreshing' to all the people who aren't saying what's on their mind.

People wouldn't easily have a reason to hate you or mess with you, so you don't risk social shame, which can be a weakness for LxIs?

It's an incompetent tactic though as somebody's humanity not only fails to protect them, it makes them the biggest mark. You should be considerate and nice to those you think deserve it but being too sweet mary sue like will just want a sadist to hurt u even more. People suck. And yaaaay let's reward the most douchebag of males with power and sex and money lel.

[Jerdle]

That's more Fi-role.

[Alomoes]

I've evolved past my social shame to a more metaphysical thing. Although, I might switch back, don't know. I tend to follow ethics rigorously. I still do not know why. It seems to be some kind of compulsion. It is quite odd. I do know when though, when I wrote the contract that lead to both my moralism and intellectualism. Kindergarten, I believe love the first day. The other children talking even though the rule was clearly defined that you weren't supposed to talk in class bothered me. I have broken it several times since, changed it, what can you do. Still, most things have stuck. For example, I tend to not curse. This has been comepletely thrown out on the internet for a time for very stupid reasons, but I'm not going into them. That short period of my life is over.

I am a pacifist, taken up because of a friend I respect.

My my dealings with people tends to be entirely to make certain things do not go bad, and also to get what I want. There is also a third thing, and that is the semi-random nature of emotions, which can influence the discussion. The third thing is suppressed and channeled into the second thing at all times. It is attempting to self serve by steering the discussion to where you want it to go. Usually, it is such that the priority is making things not go bad, which ends up, at least in my case, expressing itself as silence. Finally, in the case that none of those things influence me at all, I will be silent. If I believe I cannot get what I want, I will likely either become nihilistic or silent.

My motives usually revolve around gathering knowledge or influencing someone. A subset of influencing someone is teaching, or giving out information. Otherwise, I tend to attempt to try and improve my mood in conversation.

Typically, it does not work, either due to illogical inconcistencies of the other party, or getting outsmarted. I saw, I am not the smartest person I know by far. Mostly, it has to do with my delayed double think, where I say something, and then I realize the logical inconsistency or paradox. Either way. In conversation, I tend to evolve my views through conversation, and through posts like this. Do not expect me to stay solid on one point, although I will absolutely not admit it. I am sure the previous statement will apply to itself.

I tend to stay on one subject for extended periods of time, as you see here. In retrospect, this is post is the kind of thing I'd do in conversation, except it'd probably have another person in it. I'm going to cut it here. I could go into my current perception of the ideal conversation (for me), but I'll do that some other time. I'd have to think about it.

[Tallmo]

It is Fi-role.

The superego is visible everywhere. One has to take it into account too.

[Alomoes]

Fi role is about right.

[The Reality Denialist]

Yeah, I think role tends to overdo formalities. It is the special kind of Fi, though. For LII it is the ESI version and for LSI it is the EII version.

I have to put extra care to say something along those formalities (rare). The way I can be nice is to be chill (displaying introverted irrationality) and think.

[Delilah]

I'm curious what your definition of 'nice' is, @sorrows. I'd say LII are more likely to display Fi than even ESE: they are after all static types, assuming things stay within temperament. However sometimes ESE are Te-nice, as it is imo more common for ESE to display Te occasionally. This being said, maybe from a Fe perspective what would you consider nice? The birthdays etc you mention do sound closer to Fi 'things'.

[wasp]

I think the difference may be that ESE unconsciously expect reciprocation due to the ethical and external orientation of their base function, whereas LII don't ask or insist that they are given anything in return (weak Se). The latter is polite out of adherence to their "idealistic" (or intellectual) principles. It's not that they're more or less kind, but that the nature of Ti (detached) + intuition (2x detached) + Se PoLR + Ij rigidity and consistency produce a sociotype whose kindness is the byproduct of acting in accordance with their principles. In general, LII have a smaller social circle, which means there are less people to appease + less opportunity to do the opposite due to their introversion and a preference for intellectual pursuits, but high Fe (ESE, EIE) wants to actively influence the emotional atmosphere, as broad as possible, for better or for worse, which may result in them stepping on toes.

[Tigerfadder]

Actually I found recently from observations that LII kind of can be living in situation where they are not really strong Fe. People are not nice to them but they always is nice back. Later they turn it into a strength. ESE however can be mean / walk over bodies without problem sometimes. Part of their Se- expression.

[Memph]

I noticed with LIIs and even SLI that 1D suggestive Fe they will be "overly" nice in ways I would not. Overly thankful, or make small talk in elevators when my Fe deems it not appropriate. Its this sweetness that is sweet but isn't necessary. I noticed with my LII friends they are overly nice to everyone...sometimes I am not. But I generally feel like a good judge of when to be nice and when to not.

I know someone who is always apologize for himself in a way that seems rather excessive. Like "I don't mean to bother you but" whenever he asks for something. I don't know what his type is though.

Also the LSI (or maybe he's LSE? but I think he's LSI) I know will go from trying to be helpful and friendly to ignoring me, like he wants to be friendly but most of the time he forgets to and is just in Ti mode? I can be similar but I think I'm "nice" in a more passive/attentive kind of way.

[Exodus]

I know someone who is always apologize for himself in a way that seems rather excessive. Like "I don't mean to bother you but" whenever he asks for something. I don't know what his type is though.

I would associate that with low Se (EII, IEI, LII etc).

[Memph]

I would associate that with low Se (EII, IEI, LII etc).

I might be a bit reluctant to ask for stuff from others, but I wouldn't feel the need to apologize for myself or worry too much about my requests being seen as unreasonable. I guess it might not be a type specific thing though.

[Exodus]

I might be a bit reluctant to ask for stuff from others, but I wouldn't feel the need to apologize for myself or worry too much about my requests being seen as unreasonable. I guess it might not be a type specific thing though.

I wouldn't say it's hard and fast rule, just a tendency. I've seen it in ESI also, but it's hard to see e.g. an SLE doing that.

[The Reality Denialist]

Receptivity... It is seen more important than it actually is. Suggestive 'problems'.

[Skepsis]

I thought ESEs were emotionally more soothing.

[chip]

They're only nicer than nasty ESE but I wouldn't generalize if I were you

[The Reality Denialist]

Yes, I don't whether this is about being normalizing LII subtype. Stiff role IE.

[xerx]

I know someone who is always apologize for himself in a way that seems rather excessive. Like "I don't mean to bother you but" whenever he asks for something.

Maybe he's Canadian? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[WinnieW]

I've noticed older LII can be cranky grumps.

Depends on a few other things, this is not only dependent on the socionics type. Enneagram type and experience in life might play a role.

[chrys]

To me, the less strong a function is the more all or nothing it is. Therefore an LII might have just enough energy to put out this positive persona but lacks the energy to actually adapt to specific situations and different people, where the ESE is more relevant and able to savour different emotions at different times including negative ones. So honestly I'd just attribute it to laziness.

[WinnieW]

Actiyla using for a longer period can be draining for alpha NT types. For LII more than for ILE, I guess.

I see vs. as conflict between treat every person in a way that make sense to myself vs. treat every person as individual.

[Sol]

They will often seem much nicer than me.

if to assume those are your duals - it's expected that you perceive them such

[ClownsandEntropy]

I consider myself quite nice. It's the . But I noticed today I was pretty abrupt during class with the lecturer. It was because he hadn't really listened to or considered my question before responding, so his answer wasn't useful. I think once I feel like I no longer am morally obliged to act in a certain way to someone, I can just be abrupt. Though usually not vindictive. Just kind of neutral to them.

[idontgiveaf]

LII is 100% nicer than ESE.

Lii are genuine sweet people. I have one girl friend LII. She's the sweetest girl ever.. She's a total geek but she has a very very big heart ♥

I love best my coworker LII too, ILI and LSE are so fukin meh that they don't really care about me. Lol. But LII, oh geez. He's so fukin nice. I actually treated him a cake 🎂 during his last day. The two nerds were surprised how fukin sweet i was. Haha. Losers.

My ex boyfriend too is an LII. He's the nicest person ever. Like genuinely nice. I cannot just burn bridges with him because first: he doesn't suffocate me. 2nd he's always around when i need him. You know, he's very chill. There's really no reason to dump him on hell.

ILI are best thing ever.

Two ese, once asked me, "why are you like that? Don't you want to change for.once?"

Like wut the fuk. Some people like me, and i have no problem with other people, and there's this stupid ese suddenly asking me to change myself? Wtf. Man. What's wrong with those idiots. I cannot really fukin understand those two ese. They suck. Suck my clitoris because i have no dick losers.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

All introverts are innately more empathetic than extroverts in a sense because they understand others inner motivations organically better and aren't so superficially focused. Even crabby intps, but for them its often sadistically inversed heh. But it's kinda like somebody having 100% pure compassion for you but not being technically skilled enough to drive you places. (I realize I am mixing up extroversion and logical too much vs introverted feeling/being 'too mbti-ish' but whatever, you still get my point.) The point being: There are many ways of being nice.

Like what do u value more: A guy that's rude socially but knows how to fight predators for u physically or a guy that's sooo sweet & sincere but you know he's useless in a real grimdark battle? Both are nice but in different ways and different ppl will value them differently.

[Soupman]

All introverts are innately more empathetic than extroverts in a sense because they understand others inner motivations organically better and aren't so superficially focused. Even crabby intps, but for them its often sadistically inversed heh. But it's kinda like somebody having 100% pure compassion for you but not being technically skilled enough to drive you places. (I realize I am mixing up extroversion and logical too much vs introverted feeling/being 'too mbti-ish' but whatever, you still get my point.) The point being: There are many ways of being nice.

Like what do u value more: A guy that's rude socially but knows how to fight predators for u physically or a guy that's sooo sweet & sincere but you know he's useless in a real grimdark battle? Both are nice but in different ways and different ppl will value them differently.

No but the a-holes are less prominent compared to a-hole extroverts. BTW I find that high emotional intelligence causes people to mistake T for F and as is intelligence