BLech

[scio]

I've been interacting with someone recently and I ask her questions every so often that consist of stuff like "do you think love entails fear" etc etc.
(not quite that but things like it)
and she doesn't want to even think of it. i thought this girl was a dual friend but I keep getting thrown off because she says she is under qualified to even answer a question like that and then calls it dumb. Do you think she is saying it out of insecurity about a weak suggestive function or am I hitting something and frustrating her?
Not sure what to do because questions like that are HUGE to me and this may sound dumb but I feel like if I can't say stuff like that it's hard to feel like I'm expressing myself.
Is this just an S/N clash or is it a specific function clash?
Am I overthinking the entire thing?

[Saoirse]

Sounds related to S/N, but also to overall maturity or intelligence. I know plenty of S's who like discussing this stuff.

[scio]

Yeah @Economist I definitely wonder how far that goes, though. I know a lot of mature sensors that feel engaged by this! I'm wondering why some people just literally refuse to go there though.

[scio]

@Delilah What was his type? I'm just trying to figure out if it's having a N orientation in a PolR position. Unfortunately education tells very little of how a person actually likes to use their brain lol

I can't tell if its me being myopic in how I interact with people but I just can't connect easily with people that shut down when I ask things like this. I'm not interested in hiding my personality for anyone.

[scio]

Thanks for the answers btw guys!

[Hope]

I think you are asking to her in terms that she cannot process or understand very well. It happens to me all the time with IEE. You are asking about feelings related stuff and that is not our strength. If you want to communicate successfully, you need to ask about concrete stuff and using more specific questions and terms. I mean, if you ask me "do you think love entails fear?" I'd answer…" what?!, I don't know…or what do you mean?", actually... what do you mean? lol If I've no context is really hard for me to grab a single thing about feelings. Right now for example you're asking with a context (thats why I'm answering) so that way I can catch what you say.

So, next time try putting examples, add some context on your questions or relating/describing an event or problem etc. and then ask to her what she thinks of it, or if she thinks that X is related to certain feeling. Talk about more concrete stuff instead of mere abstractions. And yes, its probably a function clash, but I think its a clash between T and F mostly (I can communicate with ENTp and INTx about almost every topic very well, philosophy, feelings, we've long deep chats). I love talking about philosophy, feelings and life in general but mostly with other Thinkers...I even can communicate feelings with ESE but with NF its really hard for me to communicate in a deep level irl. NFs tend to relate everything to themselves or mix a lot of stuff instead of listening carefully and set their minds in what I'm specifically talking about and in the terms that I'm saying, they ramble a LOT instead of talking about some specific concrete matter, thats why when it comes to feelings or deep matters I feel like its a waste of time trying to communicate my thoughts to NF types. I feel like they cant get or they arent interested in what I've to say at all, and thats why I dont enjoy opening emotionally to these types, its when I end up answering small stuff or changing the subject and thats all (also we need time to open emotionally)... Despite that, I love IEEs,

I hope that my perspective could help you.

I say all of this just in case that she is indeed SLI. You must remember that there are some types that look alike, she can be SLE or LSI too. I.e. almost all the LSI that I've ever met irl avoid to talk about feelings or every personal stuff or slightly emotional and they can have rude reactions.

[Delilah]

@Delilah What was his type? I'm just trying to figure out if it's having a N orientation in a PolR position. Unfortunately education tells very little of how a person actually likes to use their brain lol

I can't tell if its me being myopic in how I interact with people but I just can't connect easily with people that shut down when I ask things like this. I'm not interested in hiding my personality for anyone.

Hi, i hope it's okay if i don't discuss his type since i'm trying to not get too invested esp. post-divorce, however he's not N-polr just fyi; I don't believe education plays a major role in brain use lol but still his demonstrated preference for certain subjects seemed a little deceiving, or maybe it seems so to me now that it's fallen all apart.

Another thing i'd suggest is some people avoid giving an answer on such topics for fear of having to stand by their opinions, this was my guess in my case.

[scio]

@Delilah No worries at all! I'm sorry I asked
And yeah that's a good point definitely it could be out of fear

[scio]

@Slugabed Yeah that makes perfect sense. It just seems sort of funny that ultimately you still have to hold yourself back and change how you do things for your dual partner. You have to censor how you do things in any relationship I guess. sigh. >.<

Mmmm yes ultimately just stay concrete with sensors. I'm sorry you feel as though NFs aren't listening to you properly, though. I think they are more interested in what you have to say than you think. I think it's just the difference in what you expect as a response.
I am just naturally vague but I definitely can be concrete if I have to be.

[scio]

@Slugabed You were a big help!!

[Cosmic Teapot]

Yeah @Economist I definitely wonder how far that goes, though. I know a lot of mature sensors that feel engaged by this! I'm wondering why some people just literally refuse to go there though.

From an LSI: he does think about these kind of questions but it's not his primary focus. He doesn't see the need to verbalize his conclusions because ultimately it won't have an effect on reality and the worst that can happen is that someone won't agree with his views and start a fight.

I know that my SLE father hates these type of questions. He finds them useless but actually he is not confident in his ability to make conclusions that will satisfy an intuitive type. The N-type could start a discussion and my SLE father would be in a disadvantage which he can not permit himself.

An SEE I know loved philosophy and theorizing but when our philosophy teacher told her that I was better at it than her (I disagree ) she lost her interest and felt not smart enough. I found it to be very tactless of our teacher. He scared her away.

I have (regardless of my type) similar problems with an IEE. Her favorite topic is feminism and when I meet her she likes to lecture me about it for hours. I often don't agree with her reasoning but I'll never tell. She would react badly to my opinions and will probably not talk to me again for a long time.

Also when someone starts to ask me these kind of questions I need to retreat and think on my own for a while to form opinions and theories that convince me. That takes time and effort and often, when I don't see how having a conversation about this benefits the relationship, I won't engage at all.

[scio]

@Cosmic Teapot

This is all very true. I'm wondering if that has to do with Se and not wanting to appear weak at something. I feel as though Se users are less likely to let themselves be vulnerable to these kinds of questions perhaps because there is no "definite answer" which Se always wants to draw out. But yes SEEs can be definitely into philo and same with ESIs. Wow what a cruel teacher :/ Honestly so many people should not be teaching.. Telling a student that would discourage anyone from wanting to take those kinds of classes. Sigh.

Yeah, that's the IEEs HA of Te though I can only imagine how you react to that lol. Te often feels like lecturing and it can be easily construed as humiliation to the listener I feel. You're entitled to your opinions, though! You don't have to agree just to keep the peace! She's lecturing because she's passionate but usually IEEs can hold their own in arguments, as long as they're tactful and respectful.

Hmm.. yeah I think the last part is more of an introvert quality

[ashlesha]

Sometimes I like being prompted to think about such things but like cosmic teapot I'd need time. It's the kind of thing I can approach much more easily in writing. If I was asked a question like that point blank verbally I'd probably sidestep it and sort of resent being put on the spot.

In my experience with an sli he might do the same but also might ramble on philosophical subjects with a sort of fi impassioned slant when the mood struck.

[Singu]

If I were asked a question like that, then I would answer immediately. So if someone was like "do you think love entails fear", I'd be like "yeah". Then I'd be like, "Well actually, sometimes. Maybe". Then I'd be like, "Well, perhaps feelings of love can overwhelm the feeling of fear, and so the fear disappears. Perhaps something like that has already been studied in brain science...?". So actually, I don't know what I'm talking about and just keep adding answers, BUT I KNOW WHAT I'M FEELING...

[Bertrand]

love entails risk which may or may not induce fear (although if you really think about it, the biggest risk is probably not loving--however, from a wise LSI: "love is the feeling you're about to get fucked over"--which demonstrates the view prior to realizing the biggest risk is not to love). Also for LSI specifically, since they're taking a chance on Hamlet's mad visions, there probably is a real grounds for love being risk being fear. Needing to love for its own sake is very SLI/ILI

also I think sensing logicals in almost any permutation would be least likely to want to talk about it and most like to simply demonstrate it, because their way of thinking doesn't conceptually capture it but rather it recedes from view and is mostly implicit in their actions rather than explicit in their thinking (in the systemic philosophical sense; anyone can say "I love you", even their philosophy tends to be reductions to stuff like "brain chemicals", sociology, pragmatic life goals, etc)

[Chae]

Can you give more specific questions you asked? This could help.

[scio]

@lungs Yeah I definitely understand that. I also appreciate the fact that it is in your nature to want to give a quality answer. I would definitely answer just to give a response and try to find the quality while speaking. In that way, I guess it is unfair to expect this from an introvert because perhaps introverts are more focused on giving an extremely authentic answer. Not that extroverts are inauthentic, but more comfortable with speaking out loud and so words itself have inherently less quality.

[scio]

@Singularity Lol but that's endearing. For me, I ask just to get people engaged. I would rather see someone try to answer, whatever the answer is, then have someone dismiss it right off the bat. That's just personally how I like to get people together in a way. I like how your initial response is to be decisive and then get more confused as you go on. I think that's what these kind of questions do in general. I love it because you are automatically on the same plane as anyone you talk to, the only difference is the confidence in the answers. If you answer this question literally any way (at least to me) it is valid, you just have to provide your own opinion to back it up. You don't even necessarily have to know what you're talking about lol it's kind of just an exercise on backing up ideas.. which I think is engaging in itself.

[scio]

@Bertrand That's an interesting point. So would a risk be a risk at all if the fear is not there?
How can it be a risk if it does not induce fear?

Yes, one thing that really frustrates me about an ST friend I have is I want to add all of this romantic jambalaya and he is always giving me reality to prove it. SOMETIMES I JUST WANNA RAMBLE DAMNIT. I was saying to him yesterday that he has taught me a lot because I don't naturally think certain ways blah blah blah (this is a really simplified version of what I actually said lol) and he simply replied "well, you improved on those things because that's a part of growing up" and completely discounted the nonsense romanticized version I wanted to go on about. Granted, it may have just made him uncomfortable and that was probably his way of downplaying it but it's still annoying because I always want to go be my corny self lol.

[scio]

@Chae Questions such as

"Do you think that the speaker's intentions matter as much as the listeners interpretations?"
"Is it vital to trust your judgement of all else? At what point is it dangerous to only go by your gut alone?"
"How much do words matter to you"

Idk those are what I could come up with now but they're all along the same themes

[Rebelondeck]

Generally, I have found that many Ejs and Ips don't like open ended questions unless they themselves are using them as a defence to obscure an issue. If they're interested in the topic, frequently, they seem to want to steer discussion along their path by hijacking the lead position in the discussion; otherwise, they'll make it obvious that they're not participating. And, S-types seem to prefer factual arguments over philosophical ones.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Hope]

S-types seem to prefer factual arguments over philosophical ones.......

I like philosophical arguments on factual matters...that makes sense?
What I don't like/don't understand/ can't process is when people ask me about abstract subjective things like feelings... and it seems like some IEEs love at some point doing that, then their Ne brainstorming starts and they just ramble saying nonsense and end up in a completely different point that has nothing to do with the main idea. They are cute.

[Hope]

@Bertrand That's an interesting point. So would a risk be a risk at all if the fear is not there?
How can it be a risk if it does not induce fear?

Yes, one thing that really frustrates me about an ST friend I have is I want to add all of this romantic jambalaya and he is always giving me reality to prove it. SOMETIMES I JUST WANNA RAMBLE DAMNIT. I was saying to him yesterday that he has taught me a lot because I don't naturally think certain ways blah blah blah (this is a really simplified version of what I actually said lol) and he simply replied "well, you improved on those things because that's a part of growing up" and completely discounted the nonsense romanticized version I wanted to go on about. Granted, it may have just made him uncomfortable and that was probably his way of downplaying it but it's still annoying because I always want to go be my corny self lol.

Oh dear, I bet he's giving you the best he has. But we don't say that kind of things when we are uncomfortable, we say that kind of things because that's what we do. That's our way to empathize. If we could empathize the same way you do then we'd do it. I mean, wanting to have a response with your same style of energy (emotional and intuitive) it's not possible with your dual (sensing and thinking). Duals are opposites, we need tons of patience, tolerance and acceptance to manage and thrive a dual relationship. Understanding the nature of your dual is the key. Cats are cats and dogs are dogs. It would be insane to wait for your cat to bark, the same way that wait for your dog to cover his poop. It doesn't mean that you'll have to live in restrain or stop being who you are. It's just accepting that the other won't give you what you want in the way you want it, but that s/he would do it in the way s/he can. That's the nature of love.

[Rebelondeck]

I like philosophical arguments on factual matters...that makes sense? .......

Yes, as long as discussion has factual or concrete theme and not the intangible, touchy-feely what-ifs. But, then concrete philosophy is likely an oxymoron like a PhD in engineering.

a.k.a. I/O

[Hope]

Yes, as long as discussion has factual or concrete theme and not the intangible, touchy-feely what-ifs. But, then concrete philosophy is likely an oxymoron like a PhD in engineering.

a.k.a. I/O

Strictly talking about terms yes, but philosophy could be used on concrete and tangible ways too, or saying otherwise become truth an idea or make a tangible manifestation of an idea. Culture, civilizations, empires and enterprises are based on philosophy.

[scio]

@Slugabed You make me all warm and fuzzy WHY R U SO GREAT.
This actually helped a lot. Thank you so much. A very horrible truth about me, but I have to accept reality a lot more. Esp the reality of people

[Hope]

@Slugabed You make me all warm and fuzzy WHY R U SO GREAT.
This actually helped a lot. Thank you so much. A very horrible truth about me, but I have to accept reality a lot more. Esp the reality of people

...because IEEs make me all warm and fuzzy first.

[Bertrand]

dat mug

[scio]

@Slugabed

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