How does Fe/Fi valuing types see each others?

[Aylen]

that "Fi types cant hide their emotions" speaks against Jung's Fi type.

Yeah socionics and jung don't always mesh. Like he says they wear a banal childish mask and i have seen this in EII more than ESi. I do think that in order to explain stuff like the following you need some enneagram and instincts. Not to mention that fact that people are way more complex than any of these systems can account for. Mental illness is going to skew things a lot too.

EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.

Extroverted Ethics (Fe, )

ESIs may sometimes be concerned with maintaining a positive emotional environment, sustaining a group mood, having fun and joking, etc. -- but usually do not focus towards this end as much as they do towards the internal experience of their emotions, and they usually see no point in maintaining a group atmosphere if they do not already have a positive attitude towards the people involved; they may simply be inclined to walk away and not participate in an atmosphere generated by individuals they dislike, which may be seen by others as judgmental and spoiling the mood.

ESIs may have difficulty interacting in environments where the air is openly hostile and unfriendly and can seek to ensure that others maintain minimum standards of cordiality and decency, especially if the environment is constituted by people they care about. However, at other times they may be responsible for and willing to sacrifice a friendly atmosphere by censuring others whom they see as reprehensible. In general, ESIs' sense of moral integrity and conscience is more influential in their decision making.

Though ESIs often show a degree of conscientiousness as to the way others respond to their actions, this tends to be only their driving motivation to base their actions on the expected reactions of others inasmuch as their personal relationships are at stake. They may at times be surprisingly blunt in their communications, instead taking a pragmatic approach towards disseminating rather direct advice.

It is principally among women that I have found the predominance of introverted feeling. "Still waters run deep" is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and their temperament is inclined to melancholy. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanour is harmonious, inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way. If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness, which may actually turn into a disregard for the comfort and well-being of others. One is distinctly aware then of the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, this happens only when the influence of the object is too strong. The feeling of harmony, therefore, lasts only so long as the object goes its own moderate way and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person; they are more often damped down and rebuffed, or cooled off by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responsive warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness.

I guess it correlates somewhat and perhaps I am just better at reading their emotions than some other types would be. So when I say they can't hide I am saying they are not hiding it from me.

Edit: still talking about people I know well. Not online people.

[Aylen]

There are many different versions and interpretations on the +/- stuff out there.

I am relying on this, which I deem to be the most accurate take on it so far:

 

I am not sure whether I am actually allowed to share this content, so... Handle it with care, ha.

Can you actually say that you don't do all, or most, of the following at one point or another though?

Next, V.V. Gulenko writes:

Basing on the proposed placement of signs of functions, we can decipher the meaning of each of combination. Socionic functions ... carry, in our view, the following semantic content:

+ Fe - positive emotions, joy, merriment, emotional elation, excitement, a smile, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, the experience of happiness;
− Fe - negative emotions, grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of unhappiness;

+ Fi - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;

+ Ne - prospects, opportunities, positive potential, core meaning, essence, principle, new ideas, advancing hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastical, hopefulness;
− Ne - hopelessness, alternatives, negative potential, meaninglessness, absurdity, paradox, the forgotten and the old, insight, mediocrity, commonness, repressed possibilities, reality, disbelief, sensation[hit];

+ Ni - future, change in the situation over time, prediction, premonition, gradual development, evolution, gradual ascent, the dynamics of change, the flow of time, imagination, harmonious description, subtle step-by-step changes, convergence, confluence;
− Ni - past, accounting for errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a worrying premonition, a warning, the ripening of a crisis, revolution, a leap in time, ability to hedge against troubles, sudden shifts, discordant description, the moment of decisive action, divergence, deviation;


I believe these would be all the 3 and 4D functions of an IEI. His separating them like this seems kind of pointless and limiting.

[Olimpia]

Can you actually say that you don't do all, or most, of the following at one point or another though?

Next, V.V. Gulenko writes:

Basing on the proposed placement of signs of functions, we can decipher the meaning of each of combination. Socionic functions ... carry, in our view, the following semantic content:

+ Fe - positive emotions, joy, merriment, emotional elation, excitement, a smile, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, the experience of happiness;
− Fe - negative emotions, grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of unhappiness;

+ Fi - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;

+ Ne - prospects, opportunities, positive potential, core meaning, essence, principle, new ideas, advancing hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastical, hopefulness;
− Ne - hopelessness, alternatives, negative potential, meaninglessness, absurdity, paradox, the forgotten and the old, insight, mediocrity, commonness, repressed possibilities, reality, disbelief, sensation[hit];

+ Ni - future, change in the situation over time, prediction, premonition, gradual development, evolution, gradual ascent, the dynamics of change, the flow of time, imagination, harmonious description, subtle step-by-step changes, convergence, confluence;
− Ni - past, accounting for errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a worrying premonition, a warning, the ripening of a crisis, revolution, a leap in time, ability to hedge against troubles, sudden shifts, discordant description, the moment of decisive action, divergence, deviation;


I believe these would be all the 3 and 4D functions of an IEI. His separating them like this seems kind of pointless and limiting.

Types primarily use the preferred +/- of the IEs.

Besides that, one can and does more or less often use the opposite "pole" of the strongest functions (Lead and Demonstrative), according to Gulenko.
Because, when you are very competent at an IE, you will be able to employ its opposite "pole" more easily.

What that means, is that IEI will primarily use +Ni and +Fe for most situations, and sometimes use -Ni (or possibly -Fe if strong Fe subtype) if the situation calls for it.
After that, the IEI can and does use -Fi, and possibly +Fi (strong Ni subtype tries to focus more on Ti and will be more suppressed in this area.)
After that, the IEI uses -Ti and/or +Si (depends on subtype – strong Fe subtype might use +Si a bit more often in comparison) within limits.
After that, the IEI might use -Ne, but because it is "Ignoring" this won't occur too often.
The rest will mostly not be "used" or "employed" much at all. But that's just my take on it.

To sum up:
(primary focus of the subtypes)
IEI-2Ni: +Ni, -Ni, +Fe, -Fi, -Ti, -Ne
IEI-2Fe: +Ni, +Fe, -Fe, -Fi, +Fi, +Si

[Aylen]

they have weak unvalued Ti so it is not surprising they want Te supported argument

IEI have weak Ti and weak unvalued Te so socionics presented in any factual way is probably going to trigger some. Pointing out inconsistency and asking for clarity seem Ti seeking to me, not Te seeking.

Perse said:

Seriously, I mention your inconsistency, you say - later - it's Te seeking. I say you don't see a bigger picture, you say - still later - it's based on emotion and is little to no logic. Why don't you address anything directly when people "call you out"? Instead, you post snarky passive aggressive comments later on.

Introverted logic is an introverted, rational, and static information element. It is also called Ti, L, structural logic, or white logic.

Ti is generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty. It is like common sense, in that it builds on one's expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested.

Types that value Ti naturally question the consistency of beliefs that are taken for granted in everyday life. They strongly prefer to make decisions based on their own experience and judgement, as opposed to relying on external authorities for knowledge, which they use only as a last resort. They also have respect for people with clearly defined and internally consistent opinions, believing that a sense of internal certainty is necessary for orienting oneself in life. To these types, one's personal standards of truth are more reliable than public consensus.

They see overly pragmatic views as shallow, and try to limit public discussion of mundane practical matters. They are especially sensitive to redundant information.

IEIs may tend to brood and dubitate over logical categories rather than generate their own; their intellectual musings are often more observational, causal, and open-ended than those of Ti ego types. IEIs' insights are highly internal, and frequently prove difficult to disambiguate and elucidate properly. They may be inclined to circumlocutory tangents and lengthy illustrations that fail to address the intended point completely, sometimes presenting information in an overly vague and ambiguous manner. Many IEIs do not naturally think in a structured fashion, and the introduction of clarity and consistency helps to organize and refocus their jumbled cogitations.

When I question typings, or most things, it is because I want clarity especially because some people seem to have their own systems and definitions of the functions. People can call it Te seeking if they want to but there must be some common understanding of functions or we might as well remain in our own little universes of understanding, which makes sharing ideas pointless. I assume that anyone who can confidently post about most aspects of socionics would be able to explain their own theories on how it works otherwise why bother to post at all unless you are confident in your ability to back it all up. You don't need Te to back up a perspective. A thoughtful, sincere response is appreciated even if lacks any form of strong logic.

[The Exception]

How does criticizing someone's logical reasoning and pointing out holes in their theories makes someone personally offended? That makes zero sense.

Because many people highly prize their logical reasoning skills and their personal theories they spend alot of time thinking about and creating. For some people, this is a large source of their personal self worth and to criticize that is to criticize a good portion of what is valuable for them. Maybe it's not so important for you but it is for other people. Like me for example.

All ethical types are prone to being more subjectively emotional and more easilly hurt than logical types, duh. Being never emotionally hurt and offended is a sign of logical types, not Fe types What, if you say to an ESE she's ugly and her cooking sucks, she'll just remain cold-blooded and rational as an LII??

Well I wouldn't say *all* ethical types because there are always going be some exceptions but in a general sense, yes, I think ethical types are more prone to being easily hurt.

It's part of why I've struggled so much with the logical/ethical dichotomy in socionics. Because I know that I am easily hurt, it's probably my biggest downfall and the thing I would most desire to change about myself if I could. Yet I strongly identify with many aspects of the logical dichotomy in socionics, and I will admit that I personally prize my logical skills moreso than my relational skills, which kind of suck. The things I'm naturally good at fall in the logical domain, not the ethical one.

I also badly tolerate any sort of criticism or insults directly at me. You can guarantee that I would be very hurt if I was told that my cooking sucked or that I'm ugly, etc. It's okay, if I tell myself that I'm a bad cook or ugly but I don't allow people to say that to my face. They will pay the price and I will make them feel really sorry they ever said such a thing.

I do think logical types can easily be hurt and there may be some non-socionics factors at work here. Perhaps things like enneagram, one's level of self-esteem, personal upbringing, etc. I don't think all LIIs are cool as a cucumber, emotionally indifferent types.

So for Cassandra claiming nothing offends her(which is bs anyway imo) to prove she's not Fi , that's actually unusual for IEI or any ethical type. I've also no idea where does the idea comes from Fe girls are nicer than Fi girls. If anything, they're cattier on the outside (because they're more actively trying to influence the emotional state of the person they're offending).

Fi people are more offended because of their their values and ethics close to their heart, not just any old thing. Disagreement, conflict and being annoyed by someone or their opinion are not Fi, my god

I've known several ethical types who are quite thick-skinned and don't get offended easily as well as logical types who do. It's not a simple 1:1 black or white thing.

I also am quite skeptical of people who say they aren't offended by anything. My experience has been that most people have some strongly held opinion, value, principle of some sort that people should not step on. Of course some get offended more easily than others and by a greater number of things.

I think with Fe it can work both ways. They can be really nice on the outside to influence the emotional atmosphere to make it really positive or it can be the exact opposite, to purposefully make someone feel really bad.

It makes me wonder if I have destructive Fe at times because I have been guilty of making people feel really bad that they offended me. "You hurt me, and you will pay the price for it" sort of thinking. Otherwise, I'm probably one of the nicest, sweetest people when everything's all good. I would never offend anyone on purpose. If I'm nasty, its strictly a reactionary defense mechanism.

[End]

yeah I guess if you care very much about the people you're going to save then you may die for them
as for the philosophical question my answer would be to let the three die as I wouldn't kill a stranger to save anyone neither will I sacrifice my life for strangers

I may not like her very much in the end, but I cannot argue against her being another ILI very effectively so I will say this... Ayn Rand is liking your comment from the great beyond .

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

aww whenever cassandra is upset my heart breaks for her. My precious IEI str8 girl plz don't fret, I will protect you. and then fuck you passionately. You need a real alpha estp in your life to treat you good. my soul sister don't get into petty debates with assholes online.

I also badly tolerate any sort of criticism or insults directly at me. You can guarantee that I would be very hurt if I was told that my cooking sucked or that I'm ugly, etc. It's okay, if I tell myself that I'm a bad cook or ugly but I don't allow people to say that to my face. They will pay the price and I will make them feel really sorry they ever said such a thing.

If somebody wants to be a professional/very good at something they should expect (even enjoy) criticism , if you are just trying to do something nice for somebody else or you are in a non-professional setting - the person who bitches and complains is just being an ass. You shouldn't expect the carpet rolled red for you if there's also nothing in it for the other person... I remember wrapping presents for my sister during Christmas, and I knew I was doing a crappy job but I was like 'this is a free service. You can't complain.' heh Luckily she agreed. Anyway people often overly criticize softer/weaker targets knowing they can get away with it, if something really bothers you- then you cannot be afraid to be sadistic.

[Simo]

IEI have weak Ti and weak unvalued Te so socionics presented in any factual way is probably going to trigger some. Pointing out inconsistency and asking for clarity seem Ti seeking to me, not Te seeking.

as per cassandra she was asked to provide a reliable source for her typing not for clarification

Perse said:

well this came after my comment so it doesn't count

When I question typings, or most things, it is because I want clarity especially because some people seem to have their own systems and definitions of the functions. People can call it Te seeking if they want to but there must be some common understanding of functions or we might as well remain in our own little universes of understanding, which makes sharing ideas pointless. I assume that anyone who can confidently post about most aspects of socionics would be able to explain their own theories on how it works otherwise why bother to post at all unless you are confident in your ability to back it all up. You don't need Te to back up a perspective. A thoughtful, sincere response is appreciated even if lacks any form of strong logic.

that's why I like programming since it follows clear logical sequence so people can't interpret it as they like and even if two people didn't agree on how they think function x works they can test it & judge by the result who was right

[Olimpia]

aww whenever cassandra is upset my heart breaks for her. My precious IEI str8 girl plz don't fret, I will protect you. and then fuck you passionately. You need a real alpha estp in your life to treat you good. my soul sister don't get into petty debates with assholes online.

Haha awww Bullets, that made me laugh.
But don't worry, I am not upset.

[Myst]

It's THE most important thing to focus on! I always want to close the gap, to influence. It's important to focus on for me because I want our communication to be in a certain mood, to go a certain way, to establish/solve/etc something. My attitude will be 100% clear outwardly. Also, I want to know more about the person. And yes sure, I think so

I don't equate a positive outside atmosphere - e.g. the moods for the communication that you mention - with feeling close to the other person. Just because you set a mood for the communication, it doesn't mean closeness. That's where I wasn't following you. So I was asking you about what you meant by having others feel very close to you. Still not clear on this. Let me know.

Note in this context how I called Fi a bit weirdly distant, while I wouldn't say Fe is about feeling all that personally close to the other person. It's more like Fe is the line of Ethics communication that I fit better with. So it's more normal to me, it just feels normal when there is Fe, even if I don't even notice this easily by default.

Also, I'm thinking you sound slightly Democratic quadra there but I don't really think these Reinin dichotomies can be all that easily discerned.

No one is a generalization, ask lungs and she will give you a complete rundown of that Again - perspective.

I don't expect to ever interact with those random customers in the shop so I don't see much specific about them.

Again same comment on Democratic for you - I would not have mentioned it above if I hadn't seen this too. But please, take this comment only for what it's worth, which isn't much (since Reinin, lol).

Are you sure you're not a SLE? Your perception of Fi seems impeded by Fe set as standard ("normal"), your usual mode is busy with the outside situation, and you literally said how your focus is not on ethics of relations at all And! Complete rejection of relating to random people --> low in Fi, you stated it in your first sentence as well. Fi lead would figure out how they relate to /any/ person there is. Short analysis of mini material. What do you think?

And yes please

Heh well, quite some people still try to type me SLE. No problem with you considering SLE for me but you will need to come up with some stronger arguments for it


So, well I didn't mean to say Fi is completely alien or whatever, I simply perceive it in a slightly distant way, where the Fi base person is somehow not part of the atmosphere much but is "hiding". This is more noticeable with EII because their high Intuition adds to this impression. With ESIs it's not so much in my face, I may not even notice it most of the time, but if I look closely enough, some of that distance thing is still there. Not fully connected over the Ethically right version of communication line. If this makes sense But I do get along ok with ESIs.


There is a slight misunderstanding here too - I meant my default focus is not on Ethics or people related stuff such as relationships. Relationships is an Ethics area, handled both by Fi and Fe. Yeah, I don't like the labeling of Fi as "relations" in the sense of "relationships", the label of "relations of Ethics" is ok for it but that is a very technical term and clearly, it can be misunderstood. Since "relations" in that term just means "fields", the area that the introverted information elements deal in/with. I just said "relations" in the sense of relationships, everyday meaning of the word.

More clarification, where I said I focus on the outside situation, I mean I don't focus on my own inner personal reactions much (be it either Fi or Fe).


I will agree with low Fi. No, I don't try to deeply personally relate to every stranger I see in a shop, I don't try to evaluate how much I like or dislike each of them, but that's not just low Fi really. I would think everyone is like this. (Well or most people, but if Fi bases really do this about every stranger then that goes way past my 2D Fi worldview lol.)

Now, if a random stranger initiates a conversation with me, I can be pretty welcoming with them but that's not the same as deeply personally relating in that Fi sense. By default I will simply not think of how I personally relate to them. This doesn't mean I'm completely clueless on it though. If you ask me after one such interaction with a stranger - imagine this interaction as very Fe, like you'd do it or something and imagine it as positive for this example - about how I relate to them, I'd give you this standard answer along these lines of "I can't really say much about someone who I have only seen once. I definitely enjoyed the interaction and I find the person likeable, 3.5 on a scale of 0-5 but not putting much stock into this for now".


PS: Going to do that PM now.

[Myst]

Lastly if I went around expressing my true emotions all the time, there would be no harmony keeping in groups- this prevents the success and functionality of the group and its goals.

Harmony is both Fe and Fi, just the approach differs. Ethics is the human side of things, emotions-feelings, values and all that sort of stuff, including the focus on harmony when that's what's desired.

Fe is extraverted and so it is about directly expressed Ethics of feelings, values etc in the open. Fi is introverted and is about the person's own Ethics based filter of feelings, values etc.

So, Fe will focus on the emotions of an "atmosphere" coming from themselves and from other people, and that's what's harmonized so to speak (which can mean conflict just fine if that's what moves things forwards, assuming the Fe type is healthy, too and so on). Fi will focus on harmony through their own Ethics filter instead and will be a more passive approach, through structuring and limiting certain behaviours more, compared to Fe.

Where Fe causes conflict is by open expressions. It will have more assertion, more convincing power to others, when causing conflict than Fi does, due to extraversion. Where Fi gets in the way of group harmony is by a more passive way again. That is, when these introverted-filtered feelings/values happen to be against the externally expressed feelings/values. The Fi base type will not directly accept the extraverted version of Ethics, it has to go through its own filter. The Fi base type can still speak up passionately when they really get into something but it's with less emotional energy compared to Fe. It will look clearly more introverted in focus.

So that's slightly more complex than just expressing "my true emotions". That, as put, without looking closer, could be either Fi or Fe really. But since Fi is not directly about the objects, but (Ethics based) comparisons between them, you would say that an expressed emotion without Fi's filter is an Fe emotion. In the stereotypical Socionics sense.