Awareness of your polr

[Iwantpeace]

Are you well aware of your polr in daily life?

[Exodus]

Try to compensate for it as much as possible with your mobilizing function.

[Exodus]

So engage in my own Ne or with Ne-doms?

Your own Ne.

[Myst]

The only drawback of this approach is that the mobilizing function is not under conscious control. I do find it helps me out when it's ready to give me a result of its information processing and/or when my already existing Ni norms are enough to solve the issue but until then...

[Aramas]

Try to compensate for it as much as possible with your mobilizing function.

I agree. Your mobilizing function is in the same domain as your PoLR, so it can cover the same ground. It's a different suit of armor, but it works.

[squark]

Through learning about Socionics I am now much more aware of my ni-polr.
Are you well aware of your polr in daily life? Are there ways in which we can develop our weakest function?

Ni does not come naturally to me. I find myself continuously asking myself what the consequences are of my actions as I can't always foresee how certain events and actions are connected.

I'm aware of Ne polr insomuch as I hate hypothetical questions and coming up with contingencies. If something does not apply in the real world, and could not reasonably apply I often lose patience contemplating it. Nor do I enjoy having to come up with every possibility or remote outcome or every possible exception to a general statement. I will focus on a couple of the most obvious or likely possibilities and outcomes and ignore the rest. I particularly dislike being asked "What if" questions when they are completely ridiculous.

In situations that seem to call for Ne, I'm in agreement with the suggestion that you can cover for your polr with your mobilizing function, and will instead lean on Ni. So, since your functions are in the opposite arrangement, when you have to use Ni, instead you could substitute Ne and brainstorm multiple possibilities and contingency plans.
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Edit to expand and clarify:

I generally try to keep my answers to the point, but have found that some people misread or misunderstand what I'm saying. So I will expand preemptively.

Disliking hypotheticals does not mean I don't like any theoretical ideas. I can for instance imagine a fictional world in which time travel is possible and the rules that it would have to follow and get into a long discussion over this idea and how if one thing were true, another would have to also be true and what the implications of that would be, and how if that thing is true something else couldn't be true, and all the ins and outs of how it would work in this theoretical example. That's fun.

What I don't like however is someone asks a random question like, "What would you do if a purple gorilla stole your car?" I just go errr, what?

Disliking thinking of all the contingencies and possibilities means I don't want to have to consider all the other ways that someone could misinterpret what I've written, or a bunch more examples to illustrate my point. It also means that when making a decision I will often narrow or limit my options and find it exhausting when it's just too open-ended.

[Olimpia]

In my experience, most people are unaware of their PoLR in their daily lives (to the point of blind ignorance, for they don't value it and would rather avoid it altogether), even people who know about Socionics – until other people point their weakness in that area out to them.

Those people who do are typically types that have the PoLR in their Ego, or they at least value the IE and "demand" it from you in some sense, but you won't deliver, and that brings tensions.

For example, someone recently asked me in which direction my train on the way home goes. I have been taking the same train for around 2 years now, and I couldn't remember the name of the direction. I never cared about that. I just said: "It is the train on the left." The train that comes on the left side when you walk up to the station. The other person was perplexed. I excused myself by saying "Sorry, I am tired", but in reality that wasn't the true reason. Then they asked me for my stop. I thought for a bit, and at least I remembered that, so I told them.

I wished conversations like that didn't exist. I find them irrelevant. I get it why someone would ask for things like that. But my mind naturally overlooks those things in favour of what I deem to be "greater" and more important or significant. Like, I know more about Socionics than the route of the train I have been taking for years, etc.

In other words, I am greatly oblivious to "normal" things and information, "common knowledge" that many people just know about. I strongly favour "specialized" or "niche" knowledge, I suppose. For example, a few days later I bought some water bottle, and the tag said a certain price, but I had to pay more than that. I told the cashier about the tag, and they just said that there is tax money or whatever, so it costs more than the price tag says. For some reason I didn't know (I blame Te PoLR), and I felt a bit stupid for a second, but I brushed it off – it doesn't truly matter, it is just a bit awkward. In my mind I told myself that she could think I am a tourist who doesn't know better. In general I feel like a "tourist" when it comes to normal life experiences...

[Myst]

I'm aware of Ne polr insomuch as I hate theoreticals and coming up with contingencies. If something does not apply in the real world, and could not reasonably apply I often lose patience contemplating it. Nor do I enjoy having to come up with every possibility or remote outcome or every possible exception to a general statement. I will focus on a couple of the most obvious or likely possibilities and outcomes and ignore the rest. I particularly dislike being asked "What if" questions when they are completely ridiculous.

In situations that seem to call for Ne, I'm in agreement with the suggestion that you can cover for your polr with your mobilizing function, and will instead lean on Ni. So, since your functions are in the opposite arrangement, when you have to use Ni, instead you could substitute Ne and brainstorm multiple possibilities and contingency plans.

Heh, similar sentiments for the most part.

I'm a bit more extreme in that I don't really even try to come up with contingencies of that sort. I just quickly "envision" one course and I go on it. This is also a logically constructed path on the main logical points where something seems to determine the direction. E.g. if something is a prerequisite to something else, or something is less than certain or it needs to be avoided, etc. But these things are directly logical things. So as I said I get the course in my mind and then I go - I simply don't think of possibilities that "could" get in the way. This has its advantages and its disadvantages too, lol.

Then if I really envisioned it then I really really get set on that course and never look around in that case for more options, just going for the goal. Again it has advantages and disadvantages... Do you have this mindset to this extreme?

A note, for those "main logical points" I mentioned, if I cannot find out enough info on such a "point" in advance, I may have to have to add a plan B for that. But other than these very directly logically constructed paths/plans, I don't think of other contingency plans or whatever possibilities. There's not many of these "points", either.

As for theoreticals: what kind of theoreticals is meant by that? I'm perfectly ok with working with logical topics as long as the logic directly maps to reality, with enough concretely defined data, and it is very natural as long as I'm doing this for an actual goal. I can also study some abstract materials (like some maths or science stuff) purely to keep myself educated a bit, also have some interest in the logic of these things. These do count as theoretical in every sense of the word I'm sure. I do find it less natural spending time on that than on working for my real life concrete goals, a bit too much contemplating required for these topics so I spend a lot less time there, but the logical analysis can still be satisfying when I do make myself spend time on these things.

With general statements, I also prefer if there aren't annoying exceptions lol, yeah. If the topic is something I want, or have the need for some reason, to analyze further, I don't necessarily mind having to collect more concrete data to analyze to get to a more refined organization of things beyond just the original general statement. I do really have a strong need to do so for some of my goals. Still, I don't want exceptions in the refined system either, yeah. It'd take work to analyze them out and if there is no actual need for this, I would just go by the system as it is. So, perfectionism (of the analysis to take care of the exceptions) or practicality (ignore them while there are not enough realistic real life consequences), I go for the latter, yup. I mean, I don't think of possible exceptions much, but if someone brings them up, I easily ignore them if not realistic.

How do you cover for your PoLR with your Ni? For me, the course thingy is a good example. But if something is very new, I can't just call up Ni at will to try and figure it out. It only comes on its own later whenever it "wants" to. So I use other tricks to get by... How do you deal with that?

[squark]

I edited my original statement shortly before you posted to clarify a few things.

[Myst]

I'm aware of Ne polr insomuch as I hate theoreticals and coming up with contingencies. If something does not apply in the real world, and could not reasonably apply I often lose patience contemplating it. Nor do I enjoy having to come up with every possibility or remote outcome or every possible exception to a general statement. I will focus on a couple of the most obvious or likely possibilities and outcomes and ignore the rest. I particularly dislike being asked "What if" questions when they are completely ridiculous.

In situations that seem to call for Ne, I'm in agreement with the suggestion that you can cover for your polr with your mobilizing function, and will instead lean on Ni. So, since your functions are in the opposite arrangement, when you have to use Ni, instead you could substitute Ne and brainstorm multiple possibilities and contingency plans.
----------------
Edit to expand and clarify:

I generally try to keep my answers to the point, but have found that some people misread or misunderstand what I'm saying. So I will expand preemptively.

Disliking hypotheticals does not mean I don't like any theoretical ideas. I can for instance imagine a fictional world in which time travel is possible and the rules that it would have to follow and get into a long discussion over this idea and how if one thing were true, another would have to also be true and what the implications of that would be, and how if that thing is true something else couldn't be true, and all the ins and outs of how it would work in this theoretical example. That's fun.

What I don't like however is someone asks a random question like, "What would you do if a purple gorilla stole your car?" I just go errr, what?

Disliking thinking of all the contingencies and possibilities means I don't want to have to consider all the other ways that someone could misinterpret what I've written, or a bunch more examples to illustrate my point. It also means that when making a decision I will often narrow or limit my options and find it exhausting when it's just too open-ended.

Ahh, nice preemptive expanding. I see you added stuff now.

So by theoreticals you just meant hypothetical whatifs with the purple gorilla stuff. Lol I don't care about the purple gorilla shit either. Same err what. Just don't ask me that.

Time travel... hm I wondered before about how it can be made logical. I kinda had some idea on that once lol. Also makes me think of some things in theoretical physics (no I don't know much about theoretical physics btw just some bits of basics). But I didn't imagine a fictional world, just the time travel idea itself. It does get very abstract at a point so I can't contemplate it for very long at a time (but I may come back to it later) but it's somehow enjoyable, I would think the Ni part of it.

Is it the rule generating that you enjoy in the discussion of the fictional world?

I totally relate to it seeming exhausting if something is too open-ended. My problem there mainly is locking onto options at all, to see them at all. No brainstorming ability here tbh. What I can do is either go by concrete logical routes or get more information, if applicable then also more experience by simply looking around more and just use a sensible way of picking something concrete and realizable. This is mainly for more shorter term topics/tasks/issues.

For more general life decisions, that's also typically open-ended topics, but there it's a bit different, for that I first want to envision (Ni) some things. It may take a while to work that out, though. But I definitely can't just contemplate random options there either.

[GuavaDrunk]

Through learning about Socionics I am now much more aware of my ni-polr.
Are you well aware of your polr in daily life? Are there ways in which we can develop our weakest function?

Ni does not come naturally to me. I find myself continuously asking myself what the consequences are of my actions as I can't always foresee how certain events and actions are connected.

I suspect I can't actually tell, and more relevantly I don't care to.

In practice, what I designate as 'Si' is to focus on how eg: a pillow feels in terms of 'internal sense of comfort', 'how do I feel about this feeling?', instead of simply sensation on the skin (ie: raspy, soft, smooth, hairy, rigid hair, soft hair, wavy plastic, etc.) for the sheer discovery of it. The latter is interesting (and maybe even delightful, for a few seconds), whereas the former feels like a bad taste in your mouth, and why would you want to keep that in your mouth, so to speak? Ew.

I don't see the use of what I denote above as Si, either. I can tell quite accurately if eg: one joint is getting stressed and may get injured during sports, or the difference between 'appropriately tired', 'overly-tired and will injure myself', 'tired to failure', 'injured lightly, don't push it', etc. I presume this is from the latter, Se-HA.

Nonetheless, I have to be actively careful not to overtrain. I have a tendency to decide how much exercise I should do based on my idea of what I can achieve, rather than plausible goals for the workout session based on the previous workout. This leads to my doing extra press-ups for eg, such that I am sorely overtaxed for five days instead of fairly tired for two days. This is despite my *knowing perfectly well* that the problem exists, and usually *being able to tell as it happens* that I've passed the 'reasonable' threshold. However in the moment I find I don't really care.

Again, maybe I could develop 'Si', I don't know, but it feels unpleasant and annoying and just, why?

Disclaimer for potential mistyping, misunderstandings of theory, etc.

[Nehtaro]

This leads to my doing extra press-ups for eg, such that I am sorely overtaxed for five days instead of fairly tired for two days.

extra press-ups for eg

for eg

EIE confirmed And in response to OP, I was entirely unaware of my PoLR until socionics. Even now, naturally, I avoid dwelling 'in' it, and can be quite hurt by statements like "why did you X?" "why didn't you Y?" "I told you to Z, you did something slightly different from Z, was I unclear?" and statements which imply that my behavior is a result of a (mis)calculated concrete logical analysis. If you reduce my behavior to logic and ultimatums then I seem like an idiot--in reality I don't make such concrete logical analyses and my motivations are either spontaneous impulses (which have no 'moral defense') or difficult to explain. However, this awareness does not make me want to improve my Ti, and in fact often I do not notice I had a 'PoLR-hit' until after the fact. Being restricted to systematic logic is contrary to my type's program, if you will, and 'improving' it is a misunderstanding. For instance, I actually excel at formal logic and enjoy playing devil's advocate almost as much as ENTPs--but it is always a spontaneous analysis of associations, not based on well-formulated categories. I imagine it is the same for every type, that their PoLR is something which would be counterproductive (if it's even possible) to focus on 'improving.'

[Myst]

I edited my original statement shortly before you posted to clarify a few things.

Yes that helped lol. Curious tho', do you at all relate to me here: "then if I really envisioned it then I really really get set on that course and never look around in that case for more options, just going for the goal. Again it has advantages and disadvantages... Do you have this mindset to this extreme"?

(Not asking about this in detail.)

[Tigerfadder]

I think PoLR Te is when you miss what which can be done in the present moment to be more efficient. It is like you have this idea of logic of how to approach things and when all these pieces of information is transfered back and forth you fail to recognize how this new piece can help you do your thing more efficient. It is a blind spot of yours. And when you learn about this in the future you can think it was pretty stupid of you to miss this obvious thing. Or you can continue to believe that it was a blind spot of yours. Or maybe it is not the point to be most efficient? Even when it can benefit you greatly from time to time.

[The Exception]

@Myst and @squark, I'm curious about your perspectives on Ne. I think it relates more to a distaste for improvisation, unawareness of when hidden meanings are intended (not necessarily figuring out what the hidden meaning is but knowing WHEN a statement has an intended hidden meaning), distaste for shortcuts and unproven or untested methods, jumps in logic (point A to point C), etc. Does that sound more like it? I can assure you that asking questions about purple gorillas is not a good example of Ne. In my past there was a particular LSI who ended up pretty passionately despising me. This was because of my quick and unearned success in an area which he had worked hard to succeed. I got by with, from his perspective, all style and no substance. He worked hard to gain the acceptance and recognition of their peers, and I sauntered in and received the same for free. I always chalked it up to jealousy, but in retrospect that looks like I triggered their Ne-PoLR. With other LSIs and ESIs I have positive (if not truly close) relationships, but I do notice my tendency to show off verbally does not particularly endear myself to them. I think it makes them feel slow, the same way they can make me feel foolish.

I very much relate to the bolded part and I am Ne creative. I can hardly tolerate it when someone is more successful in an area of importance to me that I seemingly put more effort into. In a way some of this may be related to my Se PoLR. Se are very good at self-promoting themselves, taking risks, just jumping in and doing it. Sometimes they too emphasize style over substance.

[The Exception]

Interesting, thanks! Perhaps, narrowing it down further, it is that he was elected to be the organization's treasurer after years of proving himself with smaller roles, while I was elected to be the organization's mediator (equivalent in prestige and rights) soon after joining. I noticed that, quite simply, I would win (hard to describe, but basically I knew my 'image' [level of respect/assessment of ability/overall popularity] beat the 'images' of the others running). So I did. Was I the most qualified for the position? Yes. Did I earn and prove these qualifications through years of service and sacrifice to the organization? No. Would that still piss you off?

Yes, it would still royally piss me off. Because I felt like I worked harder and my hard work went unnoticed and unappreciated. I don't want to invest a bunch of time at something for nothing in the end. Then what you do is rather meaningless. Some people like me can prove to be very competent people, it just isn't as obvious to the outside because we aren't as good at the self-promotion and setting up an image aspect of it.

[Nehtaro]

Yes, it would still royally piss me off. Because I felt like I worked harder and my hard work went unnoticed and unappreciated. I don't want to invest a bunch of time at something for nothing in the end. Then what you do is rather meaningless. Some people like me can prove to be very competent people, it just isn't as obvious to the outside because we aren't as good at the self-promotion and setting up an image aspect of it.

Ooh I think I understand! In his mind, my success retroactively diminishes his accomplishment (in his mind) because I achieved equal recognition with a substantially smaller investment--what was the point of all his work if someone can come in and do that?

I knew this applied to LSIs and ESIs, but did not realize it applied to LIIs as well. Maybe it's just an IJ vs. EP sort of thing.

[The Exception]

Ooh I think I understand! In his mind, my success retroactively diminishes his accomplishment (in his mind) because I achieved equal recognition with a substantially smaller investment--what was the point of all his work if someone can come in and do that?

Finally! Someone gets it!

[squark]

Interesting, thanks! Perhaps, narrowing it down further, it is that he was elected to be the organization's treasurer after years of proving himself with smaller roles, while I was elected to be the organization's mediator (equivalent in prestige and rights) soon after joining. I noticed that, quite simply, I would win (hard to describe, but basically I knew my 'image' [level of respect/assessment of ability/overall popularity] beat the 'images' of the others running). So I did. Was I the most qualified for the position? Yes. Did I earn and prove these qualifications through years of service and sacrifice to the organization? No. Would that still piss you off?

Wouldn't bother me as I'm not a good mediator and have no desire to be one. Some people are just better suited for some things than others, and I'd only be bothered if I was actually more qualified for something and also wanted to do it and someone else was chosen instead for some superficial reason - that'd be annoying and I'd definitely say something about it. But I don't envy people their natural abilities.

Re. the purple gorilla example - that was exaggerated to show something without any tie to reality for a point of contrast, there are more subtle examples. But if Se is seeing what's there, then Ne is seeing what could be there. It's all the potential any situation or person possesses, and I imagine it to be like the decision point in a SciFi show where all the alternate realities split off from the main reality, though a Ne ego might experience it differently. But if you take that example and compare a Ne lead to a Ne polr then the Ne lead is standing at that point and seeing all those alternate realities all the time as part of their normal perception while the Ne polr sees just the reality in front of them. Those other realities are outside their normal field of vision.

As far as hidden meanings go, that could be Ni, Ti, Fi, etc really depending on the context and what you're referring to and what clues give it away. Jumps in logic sounds possibly like a holographic thinking style which is found in SLE, LII, IEE, ESI so not Ne related even though two of the types within this style share Ne.

[Myst]

@Myst and @squark, I'm curious about your perspectives on Ne. I think it relates more to a distaste for improvisation, unawareness of when hidden meanings are intended (not necessarily figuring out what the hidden meaning is but knowing WHEN a statement has an intended hidden meaning), distaste for shortcuts and unproven or untested methods, jumps in logic (point A to point C), etc. Does that sound more like it? I can assure you that asking questions about purple gorillas is not a good example of Ne.

Well first off, I'm Se subtype and some of the things you are talking about are the domain of both Se and Ne. Sometimes it's also the domain of Ni. So with that in mind...

I don't have a problem with improvisation if it's all immediate concrete stuff, where there are no real hidden variables. I actually like to move fast and improvise then to solve something to get to the goal, I can also lead other people with me with that and I actually like doing that too. Energy-wise kinda like DCNH D with C in service of it too (for the C part, strengthened Se: "This treats creativity as primary and instinctive. It gives nonstandard, rapid solutions during extreme, critical (for survival) situations" Definitely not the strengthened Ne version of C!).

I do have a strong distaste for improvisation of the type that requires brainstorming. No creativity* here, just logical intelligence, thank-you.
(*: the thing they measure in typical creativity tests about divergent thinking lol)

And yeah, I don't figure out hidden meanings well. I can get a vague sense that something doesn't add up but that's about it. This is the case until I get lucky, meaning, I happen to get into my "contemplative mode" and get the solution somehow. (I can try and enter this mode but it's hard to feel real control over it.) I would think that's the Ni side of things there. It doesn't work with every kind of hidden meaning, just with some of them.

No distaste for certain shortcuts, why should I mind if I get where I wanted to get? Not that I often try to look for them. It depends on the situation a lot. Again these are immediate things I can make use of on the spot or my ability to manipulate in this way comes from a good understanding of the topic/type of situation. With the former, deep understanding isn't needed, it however can help if I already have some familiarity in the area/situation. Then sometimes even that's not needed, depending on what it is. And if the topic/situation is such that I need to develop a deeper logical understanding first then I can take quite a while with that first, definitely no shortcut in that phase, but later, as I said, I can use the understanding to get somewhere more easily, nicely feeling in control fully.

As for unproven/untested methods, I don't look at such things by default. I don't care for them, if my method works why on earth would I switch to something else? But sometimes, if I feel VERY stuck on a course of mine for a goal and then I get disoriented, I can try something but it doesn't usually end up well lol. I'd be better off if I first reorient, giving myself time for that, collect more information and then I just go on in my usual sensible ways. But this isn't always possible or I don't see how I can reorient fast enough. However the understanding I gain from more experience during trying such a new method, that can be good to have.

Jumps in logic: NOOO. Just, fuck off. That's basically my reaction to it lol.

In my past there was a particular LSI who ended up pretty passionately despising me. This was because of my quick and unearned success in an area which he had worked hard to succeed. I got by with, from his perspective, all style and no substance. He worked hard to gain the acceptance and recognition of their peers, and I sauntered in and received the same for free. I always chalked it up to jealousy, but in retrospect that looks like I triggered their Ne-PoLR. With other LSIs and ESIs I have positive (if not truly close) relationships, but I do notice my tendency to show off verbally does not particularly endear myself to them. I think it makes them feel slow, the same way they can make me feel foolish.

Yeah I don't really care for the show off thingy for how some IEEs seem to put themselves in focus in such a personal way. It's not an equally strong tendency for all of them though. It's just some of them. Probably a factor beyond type that manifests via their Ego block's information processing. But no, it's not because it'd make me feel slow. It's just simply annoying a bit. No real big deal tho'.

I don't know for sure how I'd react in that situation. It depends on how I'm able to evaluate the facts of the specific situation. But, if it's true that you were qualified for the job of mediator, which definitely sounds like a good job for some ExFx types, I probably wouldn't care, since those kinds of jobs don't interest me. Very much not my type of thing.

[squark]

Yes that helped lol. Curious tho', do you at all relate to me here: "then if I really envisioned it then I really really get set on that course and never look around in that case for more options, just going for the goal. Again it has advantages and disadvantages... Do you have this mindset to this extreme"?

(Not asking about this in detail.)

I'm not sure.

[Muddy]

Ooh I think I understand! In his mind, my success retroactively diminishes his accomplishment (in his mind) because I achieved equal recognition with a substantially smaller investment--what was the point of all his work if someone can come in and do that?

I knew this applied to LSIs and ESIs, but did not realize it applied to LIIs as well. Maybe it's just an IJ vs. EP sort of thing.

I think the leading Ti has more to do with this then anything else. Ti leading places fairness and consistency over actions that may be more beneficial themselves or others.(subdued Te)

In my case this kind of thing wouldn't bother me because I can accept that this is how the world works and always will. All those CEOs out there may not be busting their asses any more then the average mid-level employee but they are getting paid millions more regardless simply because of the way the economy functions. Ti leads try to go against the grain in favor of what they think things "should" be like, while not always bothering to recognize the reality of how things work.

[Myst]

I do notice my tendency to show off verbally does not particularly endear myself to them. I think it makes them feel slow, the same way they can make me feel foolish.

OK I notice now that you specifically say "verbally", do you just mean using complex phrasings to show off? I don't really worry about that as long as what the person is saying makes sense. I dislike it though if they just throw some ideas together without enough justification for it. (With some ILEs, if their Ti is strong enough to do so, it's sometimes pretty ok theories.) This isn't because of "verbally showing off", I absolutely don't even see it as "showing off".

Wouldn't bother me as I'm not a good mediator and have no desire to be one. Some people are just better suited for some things than others, and I'd only be bothered if I was actually more qualified for something and also wanted to do it and someone else was chosen instead for some superficial reason - that'd be annoying and I'd definitely say something about it. But I don't envy people their natural abilities.

Heh I said very similar things, and yes, it would only be annoying in that case that you describe. No idea why the LII in this thread sees this differently.

But if Se is seeing what's there, then Ne is seeing what could be there. It's all the potential any situation or person possesses, and I imagine it to be like the decision point in a SciFi show where all the alternate realities split off from the main reality, though a Ne ego might experience it differently. But if you take that example and compare a Ne lead to a Ne polr then the Ne lead is standing at that point and seeing all those alternate realities all the time as part of their normal perception while the Ne polr sees just the reality in front of them. Those other realities are outside their normal field of vision.

Yeah that's it about many alternative realities. By default, I do literally just see what's in front of me yeah, or things that are directly logically and concretely linked to what's in front of me concretely. I have no desire to see those alternative realities at all, they don't actually exist for the concrete outside situation. Really incompatible with that outside immediate situation, Ne is not complementary with it but runs in "parallel" with it and I think this is the essence of Ne PoLR.

Jumps in logic sounds possibly like a holographic thinking style which is found in SLE, LII, IEE, ESI so not Ne related even though two of the types within this style share Ne.

No, I don't perceive the supposed holographic thinkers SLE and ESI as having logical jumps in their reasoning in that disturbing/really really annoying way. LII can jump but that's because of their Ne. IEE even worse with it. All Ne egos will do that, Ne bases slightly different with it than Ne creatives. Alpha NTs are more tolerable with more Ti. Esssentially what I mean, if this is not clear, there is a claim of an idea and then there is another statement and the second one doesn't directly follow from the first one either using (formal-ish concrete) logic or using just common sense knowledge of how concrete reality is, some step is sorely missing. Like @Nehtaro said, it's A to C skipping the B. That's when I go "fuck off with the bs" or demand filling in of the hole if I want to understand the idea for some reason (with some ILEs and LIIs). It's not my nicest mode tbh, pissed off Se ego

Familiar issue to you too?

I'm not sure.

OK, umm, you mean, you're not sure if you ever care to have a set course that's not to be deviated from?

[Myst]

EIE confirmed And in response to OP, I was entirely unaware of my PoLR until socionics. Even now, naturally, I avoid dwelling 'in' it, and can be quite hurt by statements like "why did you X?" "why didn't you Y?" "I told you to Z, you did something slightly different from Z, was I unclear?" and statements which imply that my behavior is a result of a (mis)calculated concrete logical analysis. If you reduce my behavior to logic and ultimatums then I seem like an idiot--in reality I don't make such concrete logical analyses and my motivations are either spontaneous impulses (which have no 'moral defense') or difficult to explain. However, this awareness does not make me want to improve my Ti, and in fact often I do not notice I had a 'PoLR-hit' until after the fact. Being restricted to systematic logic is contrary to my type's program, if you will, and 'improving' it is a misunderstanding. For instance, I actually excel at formal logic and enjoy playing devil's advocate almost as much as ENTPs--but it is always a spontaneous analysis of associations, not based on well-formulated categories. I imagine it is the same for every type, that their PoLR is something which would be counterproductive (if it's even possible) to focus on 'improving.'

Oh I see this now. Hm, it's strange to me that someone can find this hurtful if I ask such things like "why did you X?" "why didn't you Y?" "I told you to Z, you did something slightly different from Z, was I unclear?" O_o I mean, there is nothing personal against the person in these questions (from my part), no blaming or anything, it's just a request for information enclosed in reasoning. (Though there is also the argumentative version lol, but by default it's just a neutral request.) Now especially the last example... I would say it does matter a lot if I give someone detailed instructions yet they do something a bit different that ends up in different, quite unintended/undesired consequences. Maybe this can't always be seen from the xEE pov? But I would think in some situations it's really obvious even via Te HA or whatever.

[lemontrees]

I was just mulling this over, I think it feels like information that's right in view but which I can't see because it doesn't fit into my mental conception of the universe. I was watching "Westworld." Lol. The androids, who think they are wild west settlers, are programmed not to recognize any images or speech that alludes to an outside world. They will look at a photo of cars and say "that looks like nothing to me." This feels like my PoLR.

[The Exception]

Wouldn't bother me as I'm not a good mediator and have no desire to be one. Some people are just better suited for some things than others, and I'd only be bothered if I was actually more qualified for something and also wanted to do it and someone else was chosen instead for some superficial reason - that'd be annoying and I'd definitely say something about it. But I don't envy people their natural abilities.

I don't envy people's natural abilities either unless it's an ability I personally value for myself and I see someone achieving more than I am with lesser time and effort, then I can get quite envious.

Heh I said very similar things, and yes, it would only be annoying in that case that you describe. No idea why the LII in this thread sees this differently.

For me what it comes down to is that I don’t want other people to have unfair advantages over me. I want to feel like my efforts are not wasted. I prefer to put my time and energy into the activity itself, not the self-promotion surrounding it.

[The Exception]

I think the leading Ti has more to do with this then anything else. Ti leading places fairness and consistency over actions that may be more beneficial themselves or others.(subdued Te)

In my case this kind of thing wouldn't bother me because I can accept that this is how the world works and always will. All those CEOs out there may not be busting their asses any more then the average mid-level employee but they are getting paid millions more regardless simply because of the way the economy functions. Ti leads try to go against the grain in favor of what they think things "should" be like, while not always bothering to recognize the reality of how things work.

The bolded statement is the story of my life!

I realize this is how the world works but it still sounds harsh and unpleasant to me, far from my own personal idealized utopia.

[Myst]

I was just mulling this over, I think it feels like information that's right in view but which I can't see because it doesn't fit into my mental conception of the universe. I was watching "Westworld." Lol. The androids, who think they are wild west settlers, are programmed not to recognize any images or speech that alludes to an outside world. They will look at a photo of cars and say "that looks like nothing to me." This feels like my PoLR.

Not fitting into your mental conceptions? Sounds like Ne or Te PoLR.

I don't envy people's natural abilities either unless it's an ability I personally value for myself and I see someone achieving more than I am with lesser time and effort, then I can get quite envious.

I don't react with envy, that to me is a pointless subjective emotion; I can get annoyed but if I want to get to this goal, I'll just keep working towards it, obstacles or not. I can win later.

For me what it comes down to is that I don’t want other people to have unfair advantages over me. I want to feel like my efforts are not wasted. I prefer to put my time and energy into the activity itself, not the self-promotion surrounding it.

Unfair would be if they got the promotion without being qualified for it, just by schmoozing or something. Self-promotion is however not simply schmoozing.

The bolded statement is the story of my life!

I realize this is how the world works but it still sounds harsh and unpleasant to me, far from my own personal idealized utopia.

Seems like that's the Se PoLR for you.

Well, what I'm talking about, specifically, is any of the following: 1. Using unnecessarily abstract or recondite words or phrases. In my younger days I loved doing this; then, sometimes, I would turn it off completely to better blend in; these days I just use whatever words best fit the meaning I'm trying to convey, and I sometimes get unexpected reactions of admiration or contempt (usually from people who value, but are insecure about, their educational attainment or their intelligence.)

Um, if you just sounded like a pseudo intellectual, you'd have got bad looks from me too. Such a reaction from me has nothing to do with being insecure about intelligence or about educational attainment. It's simply about how good the content itself is, regardless of word usage.

So what I mean by pseudo intellectual stuff is when it doesn't make neat sense on the whole, but just a mix of those unnecessarily er, recondite words with a lot of holes in the train of thought. Btw I'm not saying this is a Ti PoLR issue, not saying Ti PoLR can't ever say sensible stuff, this is more about how the pseudo intellectual person didn't truly educate themselves on the topic. I'm sure IEE with Te HA can learn enough about topics to be sensible.

So of course I didn't hear you talk back then, maybe it made complete sense. In which case I wouldn't have minded, as I explained earlier, too.

Now, if it's just someone throwing ideas together without it truly making sense, but at the same time not using special words to show off, while also not claiming in any way that they understand the topic well, I would see that as just a sincere attempt to try and understand things and that would not annoy me so much. I know a guy like this and I don't mind it in him. (Even though he might actually be IEE - I'm not entirely sure on his type yet.)

And I hear that's how SLI and IEE dualize, the SLI talks and throws random bs at the IEE to keep their attention.

2. Associations, like the jumps in logic you hate. Except not for the sake of a logical argument, but to be 'punny,' taking the topic to a different plane and showing how two ideas run 'parallel' despite differences.

Oh I don't see that in that bad light I talk of above. I might not care for it but I don't think of this as showing off.

Sometimes I crack up LSI's in private with these (comes off like an EIE's Ne-demonstrative?) but in public not so much.

Hmm, well, I can laugh at the most nonsensical stuff but only if I'm already in an extremely good mood with someone/people. The kind of situation where it doesn't matter anymore what you say or do, lol. So in a sense, you need to "Fe" me first for me to be less categorically rejecting of raw Ne input as it is. It's possible, it just doesn't happen often. Since where I say "extremely", I mean it, it's not a usual thing.

By the way, the unpleasant situation with the LSI is an extreme example--he was pretty unhealthy (and, to be fair, I was pretty lazy). You know I think PoLR/HA hits are circumstantial. It is only when someone has coercive power over me (the Se to back up the Ti) that it hurts. When I am made to leave, or shown I am unwanted, because of unwavering rules, without a chance to explain myself, without mercy. The _threat_ of Ti is more powerful than the Ti itself--when I start to explain and I am interrupted emphatically ("but..." "DOESN'T MATTER"), and so I have to choose my words very carefully, to think of how to defend myself, but I can't, and suddenly I am speechless, and deflated and humiliated. Anytime I am made to leave, pushed out, because of absolute rules I didn't mean to break. Whereas a Beta might fight back, I have no strength, why should I have to fight to stay in a place where I am unwanted? But it hurts to be unwanted, so I leave and cry. This could be specifically me more than IEE in general. Also, no, if someone gives me detailed instructions (if written down and emphasized that they are important), of course I will follow. That particular example was of an LSE with Ni-PoLR being upset that I was in the shower when I was 'supposed' to be walking... to a coffee shop... to relax, on my own time, unrelated to any of the LSE's needs or plans, but in contrast to the LSE's understanding of what would happen. So less of an LSI or Ti thing, more of a control-freak LSE thing.

Interesting. Weird about the LSE, I get what you mean by the rest. Though this is definitely not just a type thing, I'm very ok with giving a chance to people to explain themselves, unless it's some big deal where it's obvious it cannot be truly justified in any way. For the rest of cases, it's possible that I come off as if I'm not open to hearing the other party but that's not true usually. Though it can take time for me to take it in what they are saying and may process it only later. I guess that's when my Ni HA catches up and makes up for the PoLR .

[The Exception]

Not fitting into your mental conceptions? Sounds like Ne or Te PoLR.

I have that same issue frequently and I'm Ne creative.

[golden]

I admit I haven't read every post in the thread, but I appreciated @thehotelambush's advice to compensate with the mobilizing function. I've found this is exactly what I do -- cover for my polr () with mobilizing (). @Myst points out that it's "not under conscious control," but that doesn't mean you aren't using it and that it can't help.

I've had at least two people point out to me in chat that I am doing something -ish, and it's true I didn't know I was doing it. But I think I have increased my ability to use by being around people who have in their ego block (my father, an ex-bf, my husband, a close friend), and by learning to do things via both theory and practice that allow me to use .

Another thing I think may have happened -- but feel free, anyone, to tell me this is bullshit -- is that having a couple of friendships with my supervisor (SEI) somehow helped me. What I suspect is that I am able to actually digest as they present it, and I seem to find something in my inventory that corresponds to their or that simulates or recreates it in . So although I recognize how supervision can be touch-and-go, I've also found it valuable.

[Myst]

I'm aware of Ne polr insomuch as I hate hypothetical questions and coming up with contingencies. If something does not apply in the real world, and could not reasonably apply I often lose patience contemplating it. Nor do I enjoy having to come up with every possibility or remote outcome or every possible exception to a general statement. I will focus on a couple of the most obvious or likely possibilities and outcomes and ignore the rest. I particularly dislike being asked "What if" questions when they are completely ridiculous.

I want to add to this. I found that when I argue something with ILEs, they keep running around with their whatifs and then I'd have to shoot them down one by one, and the funny thing is that I didn't even realize for a while as to what was going on with these people. Nice waste of time it made for. But learning Socionics more helped me recognize it so I can end it easier now with them lol.

This would be the Supervision aspect specifically, I guess. With IEEs the argument derails into some shit really fast, tbh. At that point, if neither party has enough self-control then it can be an even worse waste of time than with ILEs.

Otoh, with my Identicals with the same Ne PoLR, the arguing doesn't go on for long usually, one of the parties will just stop soon after stating their view. I noticed I'm often the one who's able to continue a bit longer by trying to force myself to spend time with on-the-fly analyzing of the data put in from both parties. That's tiring tho' if there is too much new data, and then I'm better off if I just withdraw too and let the new updated conclusion (with better understanding) come later. If it's not much new data and so it just mainly requires making the logic (already existing in the head) more explicit, I can get on the same page after a bit of trying very neatly with the Identical partner.

Hm, it's definitely fun analyzing exchanges in communication with people on this level, that is, directly in terms of thinking.

Disliking hypotheticals does not mean I don't like any theoretical ideas. I can for instance imagine a fictional world in which time travel is possible and the rules that it would have to follow and get into a long discussion over this idea and how if one thing were true, another would have to also be true and what the implications of that would be, and how if that thing is true something else couldn't be true, and all the ins and outs of how it would work in this theoretical example. That's fun.

Oh and I wanted to add to this too. With the fictional world, I'd have the issue that I want to first imagine how time travel can even be consistently logical on a neat low level because if that's not solved on a general level as the first step, I'd be disinterested trying to patch up holes here and there with whatever ideas for whatever rules when fleshing out the idea of that world. Also, I'd be unimaginatively just imagining it as our current world with the consistently logical idea of time travel added into it. (Assuming this is even possible without having to change something really fundamental...) I can't and won't change other things about this world as it is, in my imagination. With my non-existent creativity and instead with an overly logical imagination, I guess.

The only exception for my unwillingness to imagine a fictional world like that would be if I wanted to try and write some best seller sci-fi or something lol

[Myst]

I have that same issue frequently and I'm Ne creative.

I was talking about it in terms of PoLRs only.

It makes sense it would apply to Te Ignoring (and Ne Ignoring) too, to a lesser extent.

I admit I haven't read every post in the thread, but I appreciated @thehotelambush's advice to compensate with the mobilizing function. I've found this is exactly what I do -- cover for my polr () with mobilizing (). @Myst points out that it's "not under conscious control," but that doesn't mean you aren't using it and that it can't help.

My point was that the suggestion of TRYING to compensate with the mobilizing function is not a suggestion I can really use. Precisely due to lack of much conscious control and due to the weakness of the HA function as well. 2D functions are pretty rigid really when needing to apply them in new situations. Part of that rigidity will be emphasized also precisely because it cannot introvert (for an extraverted function) or extravert (in the case of an introverted function) in cases where it would be extremely relevant to dealing with the situation efficiently.

Otherwise, I'm sure I stated in a few places in this thread things about how my Ni HA functions in place of the PoLR. Still cannot consciously force it much. And too much focus on the HA often really fucks up things even more for the PoLR heh. That's when the situation quickly needs PoLR-specific information; in some other cases not explicitly requiring PoLR-specific information, HA could cover for it with a delay, sure, in my experience, I mentioned this earlier. So yeah, so much for that suggestion... Hope I made it clear what I meant by this.

I've had at least two people point out to me in chat that I am doing something -ish, and it's true I didn't know I was doing it. But I think I have increased my ability to use by being around people who have in their ego block (my father, an ex-bf, my husband, a close friend), and by learning to do things via both theory and practice that allow me to use .

I've been developing Ni further, sure. Not sure if that happened by being around Ni egos more. Probably helped a bit, tho'.

Another thing I think may have happened -- but feel free, anyone, to tell me this is bullshit -- is that having a couple of friendships with my supervisor (SEI) somehow helped me. What I suspect is that I am able to actually digest as they present it, and I seem to find something in my inventory that corresponds to their or that simulates or recreates it in . So although I recognize how supervision can be touch-and-go, I've also found it valuable.

I can't directly digest the Ne of ILEs. Now, the more Ti the ILE has, the better the communication will work but... at best they can make me go realize for a second that it's actually useful (sometimes) to widen the view of some topic but then I forget about that realization so quickly that it's embarrassing. (This applies to just Ne. Their Ti-reasoned ideas, I can pick those up as far as they are reasoned out with logic, of course.) Anything else is honestly gonna take years with me discovering it all the "details" of some of the Ne ideas through my own experience (own experience only, due to one-dimensionality of PoLR and the slowness of the HA compensating for it with delays only). That will obviously still be very limited with regard to practical usability since only own experience is used even if I amass a lot of it (relatively "a lot", anyway, a lot for PoLR, lol).

All in all. Not worth the effort 99% of the time in my experience. Sometimes worth it for personal use. End of story.

Anyway... got an example of Se inventory stuff corresponding to the Si? Or whatever it is that you recreate of Si in Se. Until then I can't really make sense of what you were talking about there.

[golden]

My point was that the suggestion of TRYING to compensate with the mobilizing function is not a suggestion I can really use. Precisely due to lack of much conscious control and due to the weakness of the HA function as well. 2D functions are pretty rigid really when needing to apply them in new situations. Part of that rigidity will be emphasized also precisely because it cannot introvert (for an extraverted function) or extravert (in the case of an introverted function) in cases where it would be extremely relevant to dealing with the situation efficiently.

I understood your point, so I tried to consider the indirect ways in which I have created a framework to allow my mobilizing to do more.

Anyway... got an example of Se inventory stuff corresponding to the Si? Or whatever it is that you recreate of Si in Se. Until then I can't really make sense of what you were talking about there.

Don't have time today but will try to do this in future.

[FDG]

I work in sales and how well you dress is apparently very important.

Being not perfectly shaved, having somewhat dirty shoes, going out with a non ironed shirt can be considered a mortal sin.

That's how I became aware of my Polr.

[Adam Strange]

I think I have been aware of my PoLR since Day One, because my SLI father is my Supervisor.

As a kid, I thought that the epitome of male coolness was the SLI Cary Grant. His accomplished Si was something I was terrible at, but wished I could do.

The subconscious awareness of my own lack of strength in this area affected my choice of marriage partner. I married (and divorced) a Supervisor.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

For example, a few days later I bought some water bottle, and the tag said a certain price, but I had to pay more than that. I told the cashier about the tag, and they just said that there is tax money or whatever, so it costs more than the price tag says. For some reason I didn't know (I blame Te PoLR), and I felt a bit stupid for a second, but I brushed it off – it doesn't truly matter, it is just a bit awkward.

Omg @Cassandra that is so adorably naive that you are turning me heterosexual.

[Olimpia]

Omg @Cassandra that is so adorably naive that you are turning me heterosexual.

Haha! This comment just made my day.

[nokomis]

I think I have been aware of my PoLR since Day One, because my SLI father is my Supervisor.

As a kid, I thought that the epitome of male coolness was the SLI Cary Grant. His accomplished Si was something I was terrible at, but wished I could do.

The subconscious awareness of my own lack of strength in this area affected my choice of marriage partner. I married (and divorced) a Supervisor.

Cary Grant an SLI?

[Muddy]

I work in sales and how well you dress is apparently very important.

Being not perfectly shaved, having somewhat dirty shoes, going out with a non ironed shirt can be considered a mortal sin.

That's how I became aware of my Polr.

Thank god I don't work in the sales department in the place I work. One time one of the sales supervisors at my job rudely commented on how my pants were technically "dark blue" instead of the dress code black and I felt like knocking his jaw out. I couldn't ever imagine working as something such as a waiter in a high class restaurant that requires a lot of both Fe and Si, neither of which I'm too keen on using. I rather work some rough factory job or be sent in as a solider on the front lines then be forced to do that shit everyday.

[FDG]

Thank god I don't work in the sales department in the place I work. One time one of the sales supervisors at my job rudely commented on how my pants were technically "dark blue" instead of the dress code black and I felt like knocking his jaw out. I couldn't ever imagine working as something such as a waiter in a high class restaurant that requires a lot of both Fe and Si, neither of which I'm too keen on using. I rather work some rough factory job or be sent in as a solider on the front lines then be forced to do that shit everyday.

I work in sales in building materials so I think I am not even expected to dress that elegantly, but I still manage to fuck it up somehow! It's almost a talent