Do you believe in God?

[Aylen]

So do you believe God forgives good people (people who were generally kind, loving, honest, helpful, etc) despite them not believing in what the Bible says? And if you do, is this in the Bible someplace?

You didn't ask me but I am not going to sugarcoat what I was taught. According to the bible and the churches I explored it is only through being "saved" aka "born-again" that you are forgiven and receive the "gift" of forgiveness and everlasting life, There was no purgatory to atone and repent in either. Good people do not get into heaven for being good people alone. I think that last part might be the same for catholics and all christians.

Many christians still believe catholics and other similar religions are all going to hell. I didn't read all the posts here so I am not sure what denomination @applejacks is but it sounds to be one of similar belief. She is just so sweet that I lose all heart to question her as I think her heart is in the right place and is only following scripture as it is taught to her.

[applejacks]

What if someone doesn't qualify, as @Jeremy8419 described, as someone who never heard the gospel? I mean, if a person heard it, considered it, and rejected it... but lived a life that would otherwise qualify him/her for heaven, is the Christian view that he/she would get in?

And a similar question: You referenced Hi7ler, whom you said people wouldn't want where a good Christian was...if Hi7ler accepted Christ and asked your god for forgiveness, would he go to Heaven?

The only qualifying factor of heaven is acceptance of Christ Jesus. But Jesus tells us to look and judge the fruit of the tree (and thus, the life of an individual). If a tree is good, it will produce good fruit. If it is bad, the fruit is bad.

However, you have to understand that the more we sin, the harder our hearts become. We know when we do something wrong. There are moments of guilt or shame that follow us doing something wrong, but after awhile, we don't want to live that. So we either repent and confess, or we harden our heart to it.

I would suspect someone like Hi7ler had a hard of stone. And it's a hardened heart which prevents us from seeing the goodness of God in order to accept Christ. But again, God has promised to give a new heart to those who look to Him.

"And I will give you a new heart, and new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." - Ezekiel 36:26

I do not know what happened to Hi7ler. If he accepted Christ, then yes, he would be in Heaven.

[applejacks]

I disagree. Jesus says in Scripture that each tree is known by its own fruit. If you claim to love and follow (and defend) someone who takes part in genocide, slavery, rape, and damning, then I absolutely feel you need to explain yourself. We need to move on from those times, and I think attempting to verbalise your reasons will help everybody move towards a more amenable epoch.

Further, if you justify genocide, and damnation, as you have done in this thread, you have all the more reason to defend god. Also yourself I think.

I frequently say I am shocked that we live in a world where Abrahamic religious values are "normalised". If the world was truly rational, the books of the Abrahamic religions would be banned as terrorist manuals are, and hate speech. To say that someone should would be eternally burned because they do not agree with your religious views is hate speech condoning the worst level of terrorist ideology ever imagined. Why you consider the genocidal god of the Old and New Testament to be any better than the genocidal god that justifies atrocities by Muhammad, Al-Qaeda, ISIS etc. is completely beyond me.

You are welcome and invited to come visit me and judge my life and thus observe my fruit.

[applejacks]

@Aylen - yes, thank you

[Enters Laughing]

What's your point?

Such practices is inconsistent with the idea of children being absolved. As you should know, the children inherit their sin, and so must be treated as sinners (in the view of the Church). Jesus himself was inconsistent, because he said that Heaven especially belongs to those who are like children, not like adults. Putting dead unbaptised children in unconsecrated ground goes against the spirit of what Jesus said on that occasion.

In any case, baptising children before they can make an informed choice is pointless. Jesus himself was not baptised until he was an adult.

[mu4]

The truth is powerful.

Religion not so much, millions if not billions have died to it and billions more will die to it in the future, but the truth persists. As long as man exists, as long as the mind and it's ability to apprehend the truth however fragile exists, the dark lies which cloud life and cloud civilization will never win. We may never be able to overcome the savagery inherent in man or the need for some to have religion and need for others to kill and destroy in its name, but I believe religion will never be able to fool all the people who love sincerely from their own enlightenment and conscience.

Religion appropriates god, appropriates the universe, appropriates our sincere love. It is theft by dogma.

You don't need to believe to love, you don't need to go to church. You can believe in god or not, this frankly doesn't matter. It's maybe just a name for the ephemeral vastness which we are part of.

I think these debates often break down into battles over consistency and specifics which also clouds ourselves from this ability to love.

I hope people will find their own inner capability to love, forgive and to make life on this world a bit better for others and ourselves.

It doesn't matter what you believe about god, it doesn't matter what dogma you follow. Love is possible in the precious time we have in our awareness, it's difficult to grasp and understand thru all the lies we're told and indoctrination we undergo but it is possible.

[Jeremy8419]

Do you feel comfortable with defending a god that claimed to exterminate most of the population of the Earth, and who condoned genocide, slavery, and rape, amongst other things? When would you start to think "This seems a bit wrong?"?

Maybe he did it on purpose for contrast between testaments.

Maybe it's so you can relate when you go from Ti to Fi?

Maybe he told someone in 1000BC to make all that stuff up to root out the real beliebers from the sunny-day wannabe's?

You can logic all the ways that God must surely not be moral nor Christian nor Abrahamic, yet you cannot logic all the ways that it must surely be so? Objective reality is the same either way. The only difference is the underlying belief which drives your logic. You want to believe such, so those are the bridges you build, and what you don't believe are the bridges you break.

More Weight! I mean... More wood!

[SongOfSapphire]

@applejacks and @Aylen -- thank you for the explanation.

I just can't do it. Fwiw, I think @Subteigh is making a lot of good points, though it looks like he is being willfully misunderstood at times (not so much by you, @apple).

[Enters Laughing]

You are welcome and invited to come visit me and judge my life and thus observe my fruit.

I suspect off the forum, as on the forum, you are a nice and pleasant person generally. However, I find this incongruous with your views, which, if you were a true Christian, as I believe you consider yourself to be, are fundamentally at the core of who you are. I have seen you defend genocide and the doctrine of Damnation, both undeniable evils with no justification whatsoever (I do not mean that you do did not provide any, just that there can be no justification whatsoever, in the strict meaning of the word 'justification', which would suggest an action was just at some level).

These views despite what you might say, are not at the forefront of your mind, and are not likely to be of inconvenience to others who happen to interact with you (i.e. I do not believe you will carry out any acts of genocide, rape, slavery, or Damning). I think the only danger is that it will mean these values will be "normalised" to you, and it will perhaps negatively affect how you treat others in some way, however indirectly or unintentionally, and will also mean that, as a person of faith, you will not use direct forms of thinking which are based more on sound observation and reason.

[Enters Laughing]

I don't need to defend anything God has done or said.

God exterminated the whole Earth save 8 people for reasons that I can trust. The hearts of all the people were evil, continuously thinking, dwelling, and acting on evil.

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

The point is this- our lives are short for a reason. The spirit in us is strong, but the flesh is weak. We know it to be true by the wrongful things we do and say, and yet God still loves us and wants us to be with Him for all eternity. So He has a made a way for anyone and everyone to come to Him. Free! Freely given!

The extermination of "evil" people wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have to suffer an eternity in hell for mortal crimes: that is the true evil, but god suffers no punishment for such an act of injustice. It also wouldn't be so bad if god had not slaughtered all the children and animals too.

By the way, of those 8 people, 4 were women. Can you name any of the 4 women who went on to be descendants of everybody living today, according to the story?

You've covered the extermination, but what about the other genocides, and the condoning of slavery and rape?

Why is that god is recorded as having killed millions of people in the bible, whereas Satan only killed about 10 people, and that was with god's permission? If you can judge a tree by its fruit, I think it is obvious which of the two is committing the most evil and injustice.

[Skepsis]

This entire thread is Plato's fault. Bring forth the Pre-Socratics! The Atomists!

[Enters Laughing]

Maybe he did it on purpose for contrast between testaments.

Maybe it's so you can relate when you go from Ti to Fi?

Maybe he told someone in 1000BC to make all that stuff up to root out the real beliebers from the sunny-day wannabe's?

You can logic all the ways that God must surely not be moral nor Christian nor Abrahamic, yet you cannot logic all the ways that it must surely be so? Objective reality is the same either way. The only difference is the underlying belief which drives your logic. You want to believe such, so those are the bridges you build, and what you don't believe are the bridges you break.

More Weight! I mean... More wood!

So basically, god cannot be observed, he is not moral, and he has no rationale for making a virtue out of believing lest you be damned.

[applejacks]

@applejacks and @Aylen -- thank you for the explanation.

I just can't do it. Fwiw, I think @Subteigh is making a lot of good points, though it looks like he is being willfully misunderstood at times (not so much by you, @apple).

If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.

[Enters Laughing]

The only qualifying factor of heaven is acceptance of Christ Jesus. But Jesus tells us to look and judge the fruit of the tree (and thus, the life of an individual). If a tree is good, it will produce good fruit. If it is bad, the fruit is bad.

However, you have to understand that the more we sin, the harder our hearts become. We know when we do something wrong. There are moments of guilt or shame that follow us doing something wrong, but after awhile, we don't want to live that. So we either repent and confess, or we harden our heart to it.

I would suspect someone like Hi7ler had a hard of stone. And it's a hardened heart which prevents us from seeing the goodness of God in order to accept Christ. But again, God has promised to give a new heart to those who look to Him.

"And I will give you a new heart, and new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." - Ezekiel 36:26

I do not know what happened to Hi7ler. If he accepted Christ, then yes, he would be in Heaven.

Well, I suppose he did technically love his neighbour as he loved himself, as he shot himself and swallowed cyanide.

Do you believe that suicide is a mortal sin and merits a damning, or are of the more Enlightened variant of Christianity which sees it as necessarily an act of madness?

[mu4]

So basically, god cannot be observed, he is not moral, and he has no rationale for making a virtue out of believing lest you be damned.

I would not associate this with god, but rather the religious doctrine around god, which is of course totally man made.

[Enters Laughing]

If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.

Indeed. I don't think I was so strongly formed in my opinions until I first read the bible cover to cover!

[mu4]

Indeed. I don't think I was so strongly formed in my opinions until I first read the bible cover to cover!

The bible is a prop, the study of the bible is often very limited by religious people. The bible is a pretty small book compared to how much can be read in one's life time, but the avoidance to actually reading it cover to cover is a psychological avoidance. It is a object of authority and fear.

I find most religious people doubt and this doubt gnaws at them, and this doubt creates anxiety which they've been trained to feel when they doubt. Reading it and giving themselves the right to question it, to doubt it, to overcome it creates great anxiety in religious people.

In the debate over our souls, I do not think religion loses easily to doubt, religion is constructed to salve our anxiety due to doubt and it does this by appropriating and controlling our capacity to love, our capacity to forgive, our capacity to take pleasure in sex, our capacity to do many of the things that are fulfilling.

Religion however cannot erase the plain truth of our humanity, our intrinsic ability to love, to forgive, our freedom to do these things that in religion somehow only belong to believers in some ideology or another. And it is not merely the appropriation of theistic religions but also atheistic ones.

You can love without religion, go anywhere and any place in this world and you see this every day, in every place where humans exist following whatever belief or no belief at all. And I believe that if you show it and practice it and tell others they don't need religion to show it and practice it, many will realize the truth as well.

Escaping religion, escaping ideology often brings us into conflict and it is difficult to love and practice love in conflict but this is something that each individual can learn to do because it is one of the few ways we can put a end to all this madness.

[Aylen]

@applejacks and @Aylen -- thank you for the explanation.

You're welcome

I just can't do it. Fwiw, I think @Subteigh is making a lot of good points, though it looks like he is being willfully misunderstood at times (not so much by you, @apple).

I agree but I think it is because SubT is very well read and some people do not have the knowledge to answer him, point by point, with thoughtful responses and get annoyed with him or they just have no opinions of their own. Eliza and SubT debate a lot but Eliza genuinely tries to answer all his questions, even if she has to ask her husband first ,and think about it awhile, before she knows what to say in response but I have even noticed her fall back on socionics intertype explanations and retyping when she gets frustrated with him. Retyping during a debate of this nature is just lazy or willfully immature imo. I would rather concede I lost a round and come back better prepared next time.

All this retyping of SubT comes off to me as nothing more than distraction. Also all the circular reasoning is another way of avoiding answering him directly or just admitting you don't know something for sure but you have faith in it. Faith is harder to debate as no one else can take that away from you, unless you let them. Sure some people will find you gullible and naive but to me that is preferable to being seen as obnoxious and lacking enough knowledge in your own belief system to back it up. I personally see how the person argues their beliefs as a reflection of the god they represent.

I don't know aliens exist for sure but I have faith that they do.

I have been on both sides of this ftr. First arguing for the Christian perspective armed with biblical scripture and a lot of faith. I didn't know many historical or unbiased facts about Christianity at the time as I was still in my teens. A lot of the things I know now came from debating god, religion and philosophy with some very intelligent human beings that set me on the right path of self-knowledge as a starting point of contemplating all those other beliefs. I learned the history of and beauty of my own religion of birth through interactions with agnostics and atheists of all people. I watched lots of documentaries too.

When I left my religion behind I started arguing against the very scriptures I once had faith in, with logic, facts, and probably just as many half truths I picked up from various sources. I don't even get into religious debates much anymore unless someone hits my sensitivity buttons about religions and abuse. I like to lighten up the mood if it gets too serious though.

[SongOfSapphire]

If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.

Thank you, @applejacks. I did read the Bible, long ago, and even used to own several versions, which have all been donated to Goodwill...I just can't get myself to accept that the stories in the Bible are anything more than myths, fables, and (I acknowledge) a few historical accounts that nevertheless don't convince me of Christianity. I'm not saying I'm too smart or too good for it; I just can't believe it.

I do like a lot of the lessons, but then again those are also in other religions and non-religious morality. (Parts of the psalms are even almost verbatim what's in the Tao Te Ching, a fact I marveled at when I discovered it for myself...and I like that, for some reason.)

You said earlier, though, that the Bible had been around and would be around forever...but it hasn't and won't (hasn't in fact, won't as a matter of my own prediction, I guess). And the whole, you won't get to Heaven if you don't believe makes me think auutomatically of third grade when kids told each other that if they didn't believe in Santa Claus they wouldn't get any presents...just, these things, besides what I personally consider the implausibility of the Bible stories, keep me from believing.

...all this on top of the quandary over whether there even is a god in the first place.

[mu4]

Faith is harder to debate as no one else can take that away from you, unless you let them. Sure some people will find you gullible and naive but to me that is preferable to being seen as obnoxious and lacking enough knowledge in your own belief system to back it up. I personally see how the person argues their beliefs as a reflection of the god they represent.

I think it's very difficult to debate faith and often the debates enter a realm of conflict that is more related to one's own existential crisis than the debate over the articles of faith.

I think it's more powerful and moving to show love and show forgiveness, and as such religion has always had a way of moving people because despite all it's lies, individuals who believe can sincerely love and forgive. And this sincere love is one of the most persuasive mechanism in the world.

I see the debate often frame itself in a way which reveals our need for love as well as the disconnect the lies we tell ourselves prevent us from this emotion.

"I can only love believers..."
"I can (only) forgive because god forgives me..."

And on the other side, the antagonism.
"I hate that religion shames me from loving(whomever)..."
"I hate the religion damns me to hell and believers think that about me..."

Religious beliefs are construction to turn neighbors, friends, lovers, family into bitter enemies, because the believers and non-believers are disconnected into us and them, into apostles and apostates.

What I believe is that you can love who you want, you can love and forgive because these are human facilities, and noone needs to be ashamed of having a sincere love, and noone needs to fear hell and damnation by god or merely in the mind of others.

And I've come to terms with my own fumbling around with these concerns, taking various perspective and sides.

[mu4]

If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.

I would ask that you look around you and into yourself, and see that love resides in believers and non-believers alike, and it does not come from the bible or the god of the bible or a believe in god and that we forgive sincerely and love sincerely not because of god but because we can love, we can forgive, and we can find all these wonders of life as humans thru our own mind.

I see that you are a kind person and it does not come from the bible, nor does it come from god, but it comes from you as an individual, and losing your belief won't take that away. Having your belief didn't grant it in the first place.

Whatever sins you've committed and whatever wrongs you've done, they're small compared to the vastness of the universe and small compared to the vastness of human sins and wrongs.

I don't have a book for my articles of faith so I have to write it here.

[Aylen]

Well, I suppose he did technically love his neighbour as he loved himself, as he shot himself and swallowed cyanide.

Do you believe that suicide is a mortal sin and merits a damning, or are of the more Enlightened variant of Christianity which sees it as necessarily an act of madness?

This was one of the things that put me off religion too. I had friends in their teens, and adults, suffering from clinical depression, and other mental illnesses, kill themselves when I was very young. Hearing that they were in hell for this made no sense and when I wanted to know why, no one had a good enough answer for me. I did not want to go to a place where the people I loved were not welcome.

Not to mention that mental illness was often considered demon possession so I imagine many took their own lives believing they were possessed and wanted to end it. Even worse, their loving families placed them in the hands of spiritual leaders, to have their demons exorcised, where many probably lost their lives to torture in the name of god. I find this horrifying and it still happens all around the world.

[SongOfSapphire]

I would ask that you look around you and into yourself, and see that love resides in believers and non-believers alike, and it does not come from the bible or the god of the bible and that we forgive sincerely and love sincerely not because of god but because we can love, we can forgive, and we can find all these wonders of life as humans thru our own mind.

I see that you are a kind person and it does not come from the bible, nor does it come from god, but it comes from you as an individual, and losing your belief won't take that away. Having your belief didn't grant it in the first place.

Whatever sins you've committed and whatever wrongs you've done, they're small compared to the vastness of the universe and small compared to the vastness of human sins and wrongs.

This and @applejacks's comment remind me of something my friend, W, said about another friend, C who is extremely religious: "C is such a great person, and always so positive. Her faith has really done good things for her life." To which I replied that imo C is a great person, and a very positive one, bc that's who she is/who she chooses to be. It's a part of her that imo would be there with or without her particular religion.

Basically, I agree, @mu4

Also, I don't care to associate w people who "act good" just bc of religion. Yuck.

[mu4]

This and @applejacks's comment remind me of something my friend, W, said about another friend, C who is extremely religious: "C is such a great person, and always so positive. Her faith has really done good things for her life." To which I replied that imo C is a great person, and a very positive one, bc that's who she is/who she chooses to be. It's a part of her that imo would be there with or without her particular religion.

Basically, I agree, @mu4

Also, I don't care to associate w people who "act good" just bc of religion. Yuck.

I am reminded of Viktor Frankl's book and his book Man's Search for Meaning and how he found good and evil in the concentration camp. "Indecent" prisoners and "decent" guards.

Human kindness can be found in all groups, even those which as a whole it would be easy to condemn. The boundaries between groups overlapped and we must not try to simplify matters by saying that these men were angels and those were devils.

[…]

From all this we may learn that there are two races of men in this world, but only these two — the “race” of the decent man and the “race” of the indecent man. Both are found everywhere; they penetrate into all groups of society. No group consists entirely of decent or indecent people. In this sense, no group is of “pure race” — and therefore one occasionally found a decent fellow among the camp guards.

Life in a concentration camp tore open the human soul and exposed its depths. Is it surprising that in those depths we again found only human qualities which in their very nature were a mixture of good and evil? The rift dividing good from evil, which goes through all human beings, reaches into the lowest depths and becomes apparent even on the bottom of the abyss which is laid open by the concentration camp.

I'm not sure if I can take up his beliefs entirely, but he found a truth which many find, that humanity's good and evil is our own. Here in his place, created to kill others due to lies and doctrine to ideas which told their followers that their goodness and evilness was in their association with some belief, with some specific god, still decent men were found mixed in with the bad.

Even the most atrocious beliefs and doctrine cannot snuff out human decency, and this is the resiliency which gives us light in the dark. But as a consequence even in the most enlightened ideals and doctrine, cannot erase our capacity for evil.

[applejacks]

The extermination of "evil" people wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have to suffer an eternity in hell for mortal crimes: that is the true evil, but god suffers no punishment for such an act of injustice. It also wouldn't be so bad if god had not slaughtered all the children and animals too.

By the way, of those 8 people, 4 were women. Can you name any of the 4 women who went on to be descendants of everybody living today, according to the story?

You've covered the extermination, but what about the other genocides, and the condoning of slavery and rape?

Why is that god is recorded as having killed millions of people in the bible, whereas Satan only killed about 10 people, and that was with god's permission? If you can judge a tree by its fruit, I think it is obvious which of the two is committing the most evil and injustice.

ive answered your questions with quotes from the Bible directly. However your points are statements without any context. Can you provide direct Bible passages that defend your case that God is pro slavery and rape? And then perhaps I can understand what leads you to believe such things.

[mu4]

ive answered your questions with quotes from the Bible directly. However your points are statements without any context. Can you provide direct Bible passages that defend your case that God is pro slavery and rape? And then perhaps I can understand what leads you to believe such things.

I'm not sure I want any quotes from the bible, but can you provide any proof that the bible is true and that I'm going to hell? Because I'm not sure it's necessary to look at the bible for these things and there can be contradictory things in a book like the bible which is written by man.

The question isn't what's in the bible but what is true.

And the truth as far as I can tell from reading the book of the world as I've experienced it is that we can love with or without god, we can do good things with or without religion, and the bad as well.

The bible's story does not seem to ring true compared to the story I've experienced and the story of many individuals who have experienced similar narratives and it's not the narrative of a few people writing into a book that says I'm going to hell, but by billions of people who've lived and loved and sinned as well.

You read this book too every day, thru your own personal experiences and it tries to tell you the truth thru the lies that arise in our ignorance and many fallibility.

I ask you?

Am I damned? Can people love sincerely without believing? Can people be forgiven without believing?

I do not desire your answers from the bible, but if you will offer something deeper something that comes from that well of decency you have, something that may take sometime for the real answer to arise. I hope to hear it one day.

[jaein]

"Am I damned?" To what? Hell? That would require a biblical answer "can people love sincerely without believing?" Lemme pull an mu, the real question is, what is love? "Can people be forgiven without believing?" forgiven by God? This also requires a biblical answer...

I do not desire your answers from the bible, but if you will offer something deeper something that comes from that well of decency you have, something that may take sometime for the real answer to arise.

You come off as condescending. To me at least

[mu4]

"Am I damned?" To what? Hell? That would require a biblical answer "can people love sincerely without believing?" Lemme pull an mu, the real question is, what is love? "Can people be forgiven without believing?" forgiven by God? This also requires a biblical answer...

You come off as condescending. To me at least

I don't believe the bible, I think it's a pack of lies, I want what applejacks or you believe, not some quote but what you really believe. I've said what I believe to the best my ability already. My faith is plain and it may not be your faith.

I challenged applejacks to tell me what she really thinks, and that challenge applies to you as well. It's up to you or her to take it up. There's no right or wrong here either, it's your beliefs and your faith.

The questions you asked me I can't answer really, it's a experience, and I'm not sure if I can share with you that experience. Those are good questions to ask yourself and answer for yourself.

If you feel like I'm condescending, that can certainly happen but I'm ok with that. Can you forgive? Or is it only your god?

[applejacks]

I don't believe the bible, I think it's a pack of lies, I want what applejacks or you believe, not some quote but what you really believe. I've said what I believe to the best my ability already. My faith is plain and it may not be your faith.

I challenged applejacks to tell me what she really thinks

I've been telling you what I think. I use the Bible to back my answers because I believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God.

I know the Bible to be true based on physical evidence via the manuscripts we have, the archeological evidence, and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. I believe God communicates to us through His creation, our moral conscience, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit.

I still stand that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody goes to God the Father except through Jesus. If you do not want to be with God, He won't force you to be with Him.

You ask good questions. Can someone love without God? Can someone forgive without God? What is love? (Baby, don't hurt me no more)

"Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

My personal answer to you? We were made in the image of God. This means we can love to some extent because of our design. But I think we fall far, far short in this definition of love. Our love is quite imperfect and broken.

The same is true for forgiveness. We can forgive, but it too is broken and with limitations. Yet I see the power of God at play when I witness people forgiving others of terrible crimes. Just look at the Amish, who forgave a shooter who took the lives of their children while at school. Look at the taped forgiveness session of the South Carolina church forgiving the shooter that took lives during a Bible study.

There's freedom and the deepest of humility in receiving total forgiveness. Had I not received love and forgiveness like that, I do not personally believe I would have been capable to forgive such a thing, nor to love in such way.

[applejacks]

I do like a lot of the lessons, but then again those are also in other religions and non-religious morality. (Parts of the psalms are even almost verbatim what's in the Tao Te Ching, a fact I marveled at when I discovered it for myself...and I like that, for some reason.)

You said earlier, though, that the Bible had been around and would be around forever...but it hasn't and won't (hasn't in fact, won't as a matter of my own prediction, I guess). And the whole, you won't get to Heaven if you don't believe makes me think auutomatically of third grade when kids told each other that if they didn't believe in Santa Claus they wouldn't get any presents...just, these things, besides what I personally consider the implausibility of the Bible stories, keep me from believing.

...all this on top of the quandary over whether there even is a god in the first place.

Thanks for the note and reference about the Tao Te Ching. I've never read it but would like to

I didn't mean to indicate that the Bible had been around forever. It had to be written at some point, and the many dates of the books' origin is not necessarily a rabbit hole discussion I'd like to get into. I just meant that God said His word would endure forever. So the Bible isn't going anywhere. I respectfully note your prediction, however. [/QUOTE]

[jaein]

I don't believe the bible, I think it's a pack of lies, I want what applejacks or you believe, not some quote but what you really believe. I've said what I believe to the best my ability already. My faith is plain and it may not be your faith.

I challenged applejacks to tell me what she really thinks, and that challenge applies to you as well. It's up to you or her to take it up. There's no right or wrong here either, it's your beliefs and your faith.

The questions you asked me I can't answer really, it's a experience, and I'm not sure if I can share with you that experience. Those are good questions to ask yourself and answer for yourself.

If you feel like I'm condescending, that can certainly happen but I'm ok with that. Can you forgive? Or is it only your god?

Ive already expressed my beliefs and my doubts. As applejacks has already stated, if one believes in God and his word then you have your answer. If they believed otherwise they wouldnt adhere to scripture and and laws of God.

[mu4]

There's freedom and the deepest of humility in receiving total forgiveness.

You say that you know better than me about love, forgiveness and humility, is that humility?

I don't know better than you about love, forgiveness and humility, is that humility?

I do not care for the bible, it's a book written by man and it will disappear in time as do other religions and fade into myth.

I've read many books like the bible, and all of them are a pack of lies written by man.

They all same the same thing, and appropriates our capacity to love and appropriates our capacity to forgive.

Somehow your religion makes you able to forgive more? To love more?

I reject this for it is vanity, not humility.

The universe is vast and there are many beliefs and believers. It is a vanity to believe that one loves more and forgives more merely because of some doctrine.

I may never know if I love more or less than other men, and in the vastness of the universe, does this even matter. All I can do is love and forgive as best I can given my facilities.

I cannot tell you how to love more or forgive more, but I can tell you that the world tells me that love is something that belongs to us all and not to religion. It's not special providence of christians, muslims, atheists or buddhists.

And when we discard the lies we are taught and find the truth of the universe(you can call it god), tell us in our communion that we learn how to love more and better, if it's possible.

I do not believe I love more than you because of religion, and I do not believe you love more than another because of religion, it is something else that informs me of that and that is truth to me. This is my faith.

[mu4]

Ive already expressed my beliefs and my doubts. As applejacks has already stated, if one believes in God and his word then you have your answer. If they believed otherwise they wouldnt adhere to scripture and and laws of God.

You're welcome to your beliefs but if you believe you can love more than me because of god, is that humility? If you believe you forgive more than me, is that humility? Are you being condescending?

I don't believe this and I do not believe you love more than another because of god or religion, and your vanity in this matter does you no service if you should believe in it.

Love and forgiveness does not depend on god or religion and this is what I believe.

[jaein]

You're welcome to your beliefs but if you believe you can love more than me because of god, is that humility? If you believe you forgive more than me, is that humility? Are you being condescending?

I don't believe this and I do not believe you love more than another because of god or religion, and your vanity in this matter does you no service if you should believe in it.

Love and forgiveness does not depend on god or religion and this is what I believe.

Lol you didnt read my previous post mu

[mu4]

Lol you didnt read my previous post mu

You've said very little, most of it is beyond my understanding.

So I express what I can.
I do not believe religion lets you love more.
I do not believe religion lets you forgive more.

These doctrine are lies and not driven by love but by vanity.

[jaein]

You've said very little, most of it is beyond my understanding.

So I express what I can.
I do not believe religion lets you love more.
I do not believe religion lets you forgive more.

These are lies and not driven by love but by vanity.

If you have no answer that is fine as well.

What about it is beyond your understanding? Maybe I can clarify

[applejacks]

I believe in appleyacks.

Ever had an actual conversation with God?

I meant to reply to this awhile back and got sidetracked. I talk with God all the time. He doesn't speak back through burning bushes, but He does speak. I hear Him when I read scripture, and sometimes I hear Him when I'm running or praying. I remember the first time I heard Him, in fact.

I had climbed the Peak, which is a local mountain hike that overlooks five states: Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. I sat on the top of the mountain and decided to meditate / pray, whatever. I wanted to do something "spiritual", although I wasn't really Christian at the time. I always loved reading about and contemplating eastern religions and studies.

So I sat in the stillness, overlooking the mountains and trees. I heard a voice, soft, still, and quiet in the corners of my heart.

SEEK

I don't know how to explain it. The word almost echoed around me - not audibly, but internally - as if my heart mirrored the acoustics of the valleys all around me.

I came down the mountain and was still confused over what had happened. I was moved to find a Bible. I hadn't opened a Bible in years at that time. I didn't have one, so I downloaded an app that had some random 30 day Bible study. I opened to the first page, and there was Jeremiah 29:13 at the top of the page:

"You will seek me and you will find me
when you seek me with all of your heart."

That scripture is the same scripture that my mother made and framed with needlepoint on the day that I was born. It's the same scripture that I opened to directly the next time I sat down in a church and opened a Bible for the first time.

This is just a small excerpt of many conversations and things that only fuel and ignite my faith.

[applejacks]

You say that you know better than me about love, forgiveness and humility, is that humility?

I don't know better than you about love, forgiveness and humility, is that humility?

I do not care for the bible, it's a book written by man and it will disappear in time as do other religions and fade into myth.

I've read many books like the bible, and all of them are a pack of lies written by man.

They all same the same thing, and appropriates our capacity to love and appropriates our capacity to forgive.

Somehow your religion makes you able to forgive more? To love more?

I reject this for it is vanity, not humility.

The universe is vast and there are many beliefs and believers. It is a vanity to believe that one loves more and forgives more merely because of some doctrine.

I may never know if I love more or less than other men, and in the vastness of the universe, does this even matter. All I can do is love and forgive as best I can given my facilities.

I cannot tell you how to love more or forgive more, but I can tell you that the world tells me that love is something that belongs to us all and not to religion. It's not special providence of christians, muslims, atheists or buddhists.

And when we discard the lies we are taught and find the truth of the universe(you can call it god), tell us in our communion that we learn how to love more and better, if it's possible.

I do not believe I love more than you because of religion, and I do not believe you love more than another because of religion, it is something else that informs me of that and that is truth to me. This is my faith.

I haven't said anything of the sort about knowing anything "more" or "better" than you. I've just stated my beliefs as you've asked.

EDIT: To answer the questions you had, I had to first set the parameters of what I believe to be "love," and I actually confessed that I have not been able to love completely or perfectly.

I've also not stated anything about my ability to love or forgive more. I've stated that I've seen the power of God move in people to forgive and love in extreme circumstances. And that I have a hard time believing that I would be able to forgive or love the way that those individuals have.

[mu4]

I haven't said anything of the sort about knowing anything "more" or "better" than you. I've just stated my beliefs as you've asked.

EDIT: To answer the questions you had, I had to first set the parameters of what I believe to be "love," and I actually confessed that I have not been able to love completely or perfectly.

I've also not stated anything about my ability to love or forgive more. I've stated that I've seen the power of God move in people to forgive and love in extreme circumstances. And that I have a hard time believing that I would be able to forgive or love the way that those individuals have.

I've seen people who don't believe in god similarly moved.

I've seen Christians believe that even unbelievers are saved.

I've seen people of all beliefs and creeds love and forgive, equally, unequally, as best as they can.

And I've seen them all do bad things as well.

I do not believe it is religion or belief that moves us to love.

It is love which the universe and god if you must use this word have given us the capacity to do.

I'm happy you do not believe you love more and forgive more because of your beliefs. This is something I believe of you but not something I believe of your religious doctrine, because it puts unbelievers in hell and many other such lies.

Not all Christians believe these lies and perhaps in time, they will disappear from the articles of faith by which we are judged. I hope for that day.

[applejacks]

I've seen people who don't believe in god similarly moved.

I've seen Christians believe that even unbelievers are saved.

I've seen people of all beliefs and creeds love and forgive, equally, unequally, as best as they can.

And I've seen them all do bad things as well..

I've seen fire, I've seen rain.
Dance with me, Mu!