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Thread: Te POLR & Fi POLR

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    Default Te POLR & Fi POLR

    How do these polrs manifest?

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    Not liking to work and being a dick about it to others.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    I've known some Te polrs and Fi polrs for a long time some I'm going to give this a shot.

    Te polrs seem to be horrible with keeping up with technology. Alot of older Te polrs don't even have email yet. They have a tendency to believe in outlandish ideas while rejecting others that are scientifically proven. IEIs are slightly more adept with these then SEIs but in turn have more problems following verbal instructions and working efficiently.

    Fi polr seems to manifest itself a bit more clearly. They seem to be oblivious to whether or not other people like/approve of what they are doing. In visits with my ILE cousin he would put these movies I would never watch myself without ever seeming to realize that they weren't my type of movies. With SLEs, alot of them end up getting in a super dramatic mid-life crisis. They do something worthy of jail time and then expect their Exs to come back to them like nothing ever happened.

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    Sigh. I find it difficult to talk about Te polr, because the whole concept exhausts me. I don't even want to understand Te. But in trying to approach it, I like to contrast it to Fe and Ti. Both Fe and Ti are more "wet" than Te, which feels very "dry." And in this case I think that "wet" and "dry" have to do with how implicit, internal, or occluded a piece of information is. Insofar as Ti pertains to something that is unchanging about a relationship, it tends to relate to something "internal" or "inside" the thing, simply because we understand that generally that which is external changes more and that which is internal changes less, which is probably a way of overgeneralizing about our bodies that has been passed down through the millenia. The unchanging aspect of Ti lends itself to a concern with "essence" which is amenable to my base function, Ni. It also requires a certain degree of "deduction," insofar as the unchanging elements of relationships have to be deduced from a series of variable and changing interactions. These somewhat implicit aspects make Ti sort of "wet," sort of messy, sort of internal and occluded. Same with Fe but for different reasons, because Fe pertains to how internal states change, but internal states have to be deduced, again, from external signs. But then there's Te, which is just... dry. Like it doesn't feel like there's anything behind it or around it. There's no superstructure that it fits into, there's no set of relationships, there's no deduction, there's no inside and outside. It feels like it's all surface and no depth. There's nothing to hold onto. Trying to think about something that is Te-related is like trying to hold onto a some kind of frictionless object. My mind just slides right off of it. I can only do a mindless task successfully if I can daydream while doing the task on autopilot. I think people who are good at Te are somehow able to focus on boring tasks which enables them to do those tasks more thoroughly and generally better. And I just... can't. And it's dumb because it seems like I am just being lazy because these are really basic things that I am not paying attention to, but just... ugh. To me, meaning is a relationship, but with Te it's about dynamics of objects and so there just don't seem to be any relationships there, and with no relationship and no meaning, what am I supposed to think about? Thinking about Te is like trying to describe the color of water, it's just like... category error. So yes, those are my totally disorganized feelings about Te.

    Now, Fi I can think about more clearly. Fi-polr is basically a distrust of unchanging relationships that can't be explicitly defined. Fi-polr is desperately confused by the notion that I could do something that will forever change your opinion of me, but I don't know what it is. You can't tell me explicitly what the rules are for how I can make my relationship with you work. I can do something that seems perfectly normal, something that was okay yesterday, and all of a sudden today it makes you feel some type of way. And Fi-polr is just like... huh? what? I do not understand. Because just like Te-polr is expecting Fe or Ti, Fi-polr is expecting Fe or Ti. Either I'm going to be able to see it on your face, and that's going to tell me what to do, or there will be a set of rules or a code of conduct, and that's going to tell me what to do. Instead, there's this dumb thing where everything is shadowy and implicit but I might just totally crush you or make you never want to speak to me again over something I cannot even see or understand in order to avoid. And like, I get where they're coming from. It's like trying to hit a moving target. And then on top of that, just like they have no idea (without an explicit sign) where they stand relative to you, they're equally clueless (without an explicit sign) on where you stand relative to them. If it's a business relationship but there's no defined hierarchy, and no social signs of dominance and pecking order, then they're confused. If you're in a relationship but you have neither formally stated "this is the status of the relationship" nor given such effusive external signs that it is obvious whether you are pleased or displeased, then they're confused. Fi-polr generally just breaks down to needing some kind of external, fairly obvious sign in order to understand (and therefore in order to act upon) the status of a relationship. Also, being EP types, Fi-polrs are all about rapid, instinctual movement. Fi is felt as an irrational, pointless constraint on that movement. If you can give them a logical, external, step-by-step reason why something should or should not be done, they're all ears. But if you have a vague sort of feeling that this isn't right or doesn't jive with you or feels wrong, and you can't provide any sort of reasoning for that feeling? Bye Felicia. Fi-polr is done with you. So yes, again, as I said, Fi-polr basically = I need an external, explicit sign in order to make sense of what action I'm supposed to take. Without that sign, I'm going to be confused and mad, because I want to do something but I can't because I can't figure out what I need to do.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    I liked some of the above on Fi-polr. I find it gets correctly at some Fi/Ti differences. The main thing about Fi is it's both implicit and introverted. Overall it's good to rehash what's true about the "feeling function" of Jung, as I think it helps -- the idea is that feelings themselves are not the content it observes for their own sake so much as noting the ethical impetus (evaluation) suggested by them. With Fe, we're talking more of the living state of ethical arousal.

    The key I want to bring up is that the F's, while rational, need to be estimated by feeling-into the situation -- this seems to be the "implicit" part. There is a certain fatalistic nature to Fi judgments, at least in my subjective experience. because with Fe, you can always interact with the object, gauge its reaction, and so forth, but Fi is exactly that portion of the ethical content in between that remains more or less unaffected by these mutual exchanges... so you run into this interesting experience of people focusing on evaluations that're more or less fixed into their nature.

    As for the whole needing external cues thing, I find some truth to the idea that if you're strong in some implicit element, that to some extent carries over to the other, so your issue tends to be a little different. E.g. I've found ST and NTs relate to Fi-polr slightly differently, where the implicit/explicit and involved/abstract come into play.

    With Te, it is useful to contrast this with Ti. I find the main cognitive perspective difference here is between focusing on logical facts as singular entities, vs more or less diminishing them for the structural relations they fit into. One way I see this show up is in how these seem to think about context differently. With NiTe, the way to relate one situation to another is by comparing actual mental states, so when actual logic is presented, the emphasis is on directly presenting the facts inherent to that state, and someone looking for the "relevancy" of the facts would need to envision the comparable state.
    With Ti-valuation, the focus is much more on actually defining the context, so the facts are rarely presented in isolation.
    I think Ti is "implicit" in a sense as silverchris described, but it's worth clarifying.. it's not implicit in the sense of seeking an implicit cognition (e.g. an intuition, which never somehow leaves the impressionstic mind fully).. instead, you could say due to the diminishing of objects it does "think" in terms of implicit relations (aka a structure they fit into), but to the larger extent aims to define and fill these out into logical form.
    In Jung's sense, this is similar to the idea of how his version of introverted thinking "clothes" the primordial images in logical facts, rather than beginning and ending in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Now, Fi I can think about more clearly. Fi-polr is basically a distrust of unchanging relationships that can't be explicitly defined. Fi-polr is desperately confused by the notion that I could do something that will forever change your opinion of me, but I don't know what it is. You can't tell me explicitly what the rules are for how I can make my relationship with you work. I can do something that seems perfectly normal, something that was okay yesterday, and all of a sudden today it makes you feel some type of way. And Fi-polr is just like... huh? what? I do not understand. Because just like Te-polr is expecting Fe or Ti, Fi-polr is expecting Fe or Ti. Either I'm going to be able to see it on your face, and that's going to tell me what to do, or there will be a set of rules or a code of conduct, and that's going to tell me what to do. Instead, there's this dumb thing where everything is shadowy and implicit but I might just totally crush you or make you never want to speak to me again over something I cannot even see or understand in order to avoid. And like, I get where they're coming from. It's like trying to hit a moving target. And then on top of that, just like they have no idea (without an explicit sign) where they stand relative to you, they're equally clueless (without an explicit sign) on where you stand relative to them. If it's a business relationship but there's no defined hierarchy, and no social signs of dominance and pecking order, then they're confused. If you're in a relationship but you have neither formally stated "this is the status of the relationship" nor given such effusive external signs that it is obvious whether you are pleased or displeased, then they're confused. Fi-polr generally just breaks down to needing some kind of external, fairly obvious sign in order to understand (and therefore in order to act upon) the status of a relationship. Also, being EP types, Fi-polrs are all about rapid, instinctual movement. Fi is felt as an irrational, pointless constraint on that movement. If you can give them a logical, external, step-by-step reason why something should or should not be done, they're all ears. But if you have a vague sort of feeling that this isn't right or doesn't jive with you or feels wrong, and you can't provide any sort of reasoning for that feeling? Bye Felicia. Fi-polr is done with you. So yes, again, as I said, Fi-polr basically = I need an external, explicit sign in order to make sense of what action I'm supposed to take. Without that sign, I'm going to be confused and mad, because I want to do something but I can't because I can't figure out what I need to do.
    I would say this in general is a fairly accurately description of Fi POLR. The business relationship aspect might be a little off as for the most part I can completely detach and have a purely business relationship with someone as often there is no need to get too close to someone but the rest fits my general conception of it. The Bye Felicia part is definitely a bit overblown, but the sentence definitely makes up for it stylistically.
    Suomea

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    The key I want to bring up is that the F's, while rational, need to be estimated by feeling-into the situation -- this seems to be the "implicit" part. There is a certain fatalistic nature to Fi judgments, at least in my subjective experience. because with Fe, you can always interact with the object, gauge its reaction, and so forth, but Fi is exactly that portion of the ethical content in between that remains more or less unaffected by these mutual exchanges... so you run into this interesting experience of people focusing on evaluations that're more or less fixed into their nature.
    Yeah, right Fi = static. Lots of stuff happens but Fi is the part that doesn't change. Or rather, Fi is the part that's sticky. Once upon a time there was a great thread where I learned that Fi is a gestalt, it's like if you take every single memory of every single experience or interaction you have had with a thing and then you got one sort of summarized reaction to that thing, that's what Fi is. So it isn't quite that it never changes nor that it is constantly changing, but rather it is constantly being recomputed. So it can be one thing that "makes the difference" especially as regards something (or someone) with whom the Fi-valuer/ego has not had a lot of experience. But it isn't really that one thing is the basis of the Fi judgment (that's actually much more of a Ti rule: if x, then y. And if your x is at the top of the rules hierarchy, then you are 100% y from now on). But one thing can change the gestalt as it were, which recolors the whole understanding of the thing or person.

    As for the whole needing external cues thing, I find some truth to the idea that if you're strong in some implicit element, that to some extent carries over to the other, so your issue tends to be a little different. E.g. I've found ST and NTs relate to Fi-polr slightly differently, where the implicit/explicit and involved/abstract come into play.
    Yah, that's real. That description was more SLE than ILE. I'm not sure how Ne interacts with Fi-polr. I think the idea of constraint still comes heavily into play. But I don't really understand gamma rationals at all so it's hard to imagine the FiSe and NeTi interaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    With Te, it is useful to contrast this with Ti. I find the main cognitive perspective difference here is between focusing on logical facts as singular entities, vs more or less diminishing them for the structural relations they fit into. One way I see this show up is in how these seem to think about context differently. With NiTe, the way to relate one situation to another is by comparing actual mental states, so when actual logic is presented, the emphasis is on directly presenting the facts inherent to that state, and someone looking for the "relevancy" of the facts would need to envision the comparable state.
    With Ti-valuation, the focus is much more on actually defining the context, so the facts are rarely presented in isolation.
    I think Ti is "implicit" in a sense as silverchris described, but it's worth clarifying.. it's not implicit in the sense of seeking an implicit cognition (e.g. an intuition, which never somehow leaves the impressionstic mind fully).. instead, you could say due to the diminishing of objects it does "think" in terms of implicit relations (aka a structure they fit into), but to the larger extent aims to define and fill these out into logical form.
    In Jung's sense, this is similar to the idea of how his version of introverted thinking "clothes" the primordial images in logical facts, rather than beginning and ending in them.
    Yeah very very real. Ti is actually very little concerned with the "atomic facts" and very much concerned with their relationships. You can see this in the Ti preoccupation with derivation from first principles. It's not as though the first principles break any new ground, it's the derivation that matters. Or for Plato: tie down belief with account. (Although that's also very Ni, I think---knowledge as narrative) But like... with Plato you get the sense that it is not so so important what the belief is, even whether it is correct or not, but rather whether it is rational or not---that is, whether or not it can be derived from first principles, whether or not it fits into the structure of the facts. Whereas Te is much more interested in true and false plainly. It is a broad generalization but Te = correspondence and Ti = coherence. I really do think this relates somehow to the feeling that meaning is relational, and an IEI will expect an internal movement for meaning. That is: Ti meaning relates object to superstructure (which lives in my head). Fe meaning relates object to internal state. Te meaning moves outward: object relates to reality as experienced (or rather, reality as observed and preferably measured). Or you could say: Ti is a way of "clothing" the internal images in thought. Te is a way of "clothing" reality in thought. A measurement, for instance, is rather directly a way of taking reality and wrapping it in an object the mind can manipulate (that is probably a very SiTe thought as opposed to NiTe).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Te-PoLR: You want to look smart and be smart, yet all you do is enjoy socializing and laughing about shit and ignoring facts.

    Fi-PoLR: Your empathy barometer is permanently broken. At random times you make people feel like shit without realizing. If you don't stop and think to put yourself in the shoes of others experiencing you, there is a 50% chance of you saying something emotionally retarded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9
    Yah, that's real. That description was more SLE than ILE. I'm not sure how Ne interacts with Fi-polr. I think the idea of constraint still comes heavily into play. But I don't really understand gamma rationals at all so it's hard to imagine the FiSe and NeTi interaction.
    The reason I mentioned this to you is that I tend to agree with Jung that intuition appears as a kind of inseparable admixture of raw feeling and ideational content. The former is what makes ILE, for example, so good at establishing the level of "interest" in a phenomenon -- both the feeling and the idea are unshaped, raw matter from the mind, which then can be turned either into shaped logical theories or ethical codes of conduct. The way I distinguish this kind of feeling from ethics is that in this case, the feeling is just a feeling -- it isn't turned into a rational valuation. It's like the difference between noting the discomfort when a certain topic is discussed in a certain situation vs having the initiative to establish ethical codes of conduct that turn it into an appropriate situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post

    Fi-PoLR: Your empathy barometer is permanently broken. At random times you make people feel like shit without realizing. If you don't stop and think to put yourself in the shoes of others experiencing you, there is a 50% chance of you saying something emotionally retarded.
    I think it does look like this for an SLE but it's not that apparent in an ILE...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    I think it does look like this for an SLE but it's not that apparent in an ILE...
    It's more subtle with them because they are classier, but it's essentially the same thing. Furthermore as an intuitive you can probably empathize with their thinking style a little more. It is definitely not as "in your face", but it is still perceivable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    It's more subtle with them because they are classier, but it's essentially the same thing. Furthermore as an intuitive you can probably empathize with their thinking style a little more. It is definitely not as "in your face", but it is still perceivable.
    I don't know, there is this special goofiness in ILEs that I don't find in SLEs, their PoLR is manifesting in a kinda different way, they are really willing to empathize and when they realize they did some clumsy shit they seem all sorry/guilty and try to fix it which I never saw in an SLE.

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    It should be kept in mind that Fe is the emotional state ethics, so ultimately the XLE, depending on how they fare with hidden agenda, should be able to fare reasonably there.
    I'd say it's more characteristic of them to be clumsy with the state-invariant fixed aspects of someone's nature than with attempts at maintaining the emotional dynamics reasonably.

    As an example, undiscerningly attempting to keep the emotional dynamics positive, while not reckoning that they are bashing against the fundamental ethical constitution of someone, and this sort of thing irritates the heck out of Fi-valuation types.

    In my experience this is the real issue with logicals -- that they're sort of lopsided in their F. The ethicals might certainly show their bias, like a ESE might find it more energizing to appeal to Fe, but they tend to be much more attuned to and less frustrated by handling the two sides of the coin well, so that their preference comes across as a preference, not as a failure/lopsidedness.
    And of course ditto for ethicals and logic, e.g. IEI with HA Ti. As long as the issue doesn't arise, Ti can do great justice there in some IEI. The issue arises when raw structural considerations just don't do it, and logical facts are severely necessary to advance the thought forward.

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    I think one hallmark of Ti-HA, Te polr is to get caught chasing around in your own framework, juggling axioms perfectionistically and being convinced things must fit together a certain way, instead of updating, adding more logical facts that shake the framework up but just correspond better to what you're really trying to describe, so your tied up state is relieved.

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    For comparison, Te HA with Ti-polr: I find Te is much more likely to err on the side of actually describing something, rather than winding up with something contentless. Ti-polr types seem to be convinced/negative about paying too much attention to the way the logical facts are organized into a coherent system of thought, as they err on suspecting you'll end up not really describing anything.

    Ending up with empty structural considerations.

    Ti seeks, being introverted, to release itself from every objective logical fact, so that the essence of its insight to the highest degree possible would hold regardless of how the structure were clothed in facts which so happen to fit the mold.

    By the way, I notice this Te/Ti distinction a LOT in the enneagram community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    I don't know, there is this special goofiness in ILEs that I don't find in SLEs, their PoLR is manifesting in a kinda different way, they are really willing to empathize and when they realize they did some clumsy shit they seem all sorry/guilty and try to fix it which I never saw in an SLE.
    Some of us can be overly proud.

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    Te PoLR

    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

    Highly immature Discord channel
    because enneagram is just too simple and therefore we need to develop a new classification system called Rhombic triacontahedron with life module containing eukaryotes, prokaryotes and virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Te PoLR

    But she seems Fi PoLR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    But she seems Fi PoLR
    yes she does.
    Lots of things are about the body.
    Some of the health things are essential and some of them are opposite. OTOH she has great appreciation for people who has explained things to her and claims truth on various issues.

    Very, very eccentric person and she has some problems.
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    yes she does.
    Lots of things are about the body.
    Some of the health things are essential and some of them are opposite. OTOH she has great appreciation for people who has explained things to her and claims truth on various issues.

    Very, very eccentric person and she has some problems.
    Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I've only watched a couple of videos but so far she seems ILE Creative subtype. They can be very special people, and really irritated by everything that's wrong in this world. And strong seekers.

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