Empathy Fi or Fe?

[Aylen]

I don't think sympathy is necessarily is out of pity, support doesn't have to come out of just pity, it can also arise from need or a sort of collective coherence. Things like nationalism are both sympathetic and emphatic and neither is necessarily based on some sort of pity. However by offering support or aid there is a sense of volitional agency that can be achieved which although is not rooted in pity, is rooted in this sense of agency.

One can be concerned for the well being of individuals around them, but it doesn't have to be due to pity.

I don't really disagree with you. It is my own personal association with the word pity that makes me prefer empathy to sympathy. The bold part is empathy to me. You can also care yet not be concerned with other's choices. I just have an aversion to the word sympathy because of it's association with pity.

There are many ways to comfort people without pitying them but commiserating is not usually one of them since it reinforces self-pity in my perception. I do comfort people that are close to me. Sometimes just by hugging them when words would be meaningless. I usually do not comfort those I am not personally involved with. I have learned to tell people I am sorry for their loss, or whatever, instead of trying to make them feel better when I know that they don't want to feel better.

I tend to see most people who are trying to illicit an expression of pity/sympathy from me as being manipulative. My mom was a "poor me" shower me with acknowledgement of my suffering, kind of person. I don't think it was helpful when her friends would do that.

An example: I was a "wild child" and uncontrollable. Her friends would reinforce that she was just dealt a bad hand by having me. hahah Instead they should have been encouraging her to stop feeling sorry for herself and do everything she could to take back control of her own child.

The other problem is my mother could not empathize with me, even though she herself was a "wild child", therefore she did not have the skills needed to get me back on track. I had to get that kind of positive guidance from "outsiders" . Had my mother empathized with me, instead of viewing me as some kind of curse for her own childhood behavior, my life might have been different.

I do not feel sorry for myself, because of my childhood, and I certainly do not want others to feel sorry for me. I am actually grateful for all those experiences since it helped me to become the person I am today.

I do like to share my experiences because I feel like they show that no obstacle or circumstance has made me a bitter, angry, or cynical adult. I know some people will be upset by my stories and want to pity me and some will empathize. I prefer the empathy. When people start to sympathize with me I find myself wanting to change their flow of emotions to a more positive perspective and to show them that damage can be repaired.

I also know that some people are like my mom and that is just how they are. Nothing truly wrong (except in my own perception) with that but I am not going to load them with sympathy when I feel they need something different. I would rather bite my tongue than say "poor you". I will give them a hug when I feel that words would just make it worse. I hugged my mom a lot even though she did not like it. Otherwise we might have killed each other. She is LSI, ftr.

[Aylen]

What a trainwreck of a thread. Anyway, my 2 cents. Let's bring in some definitions. Starting with how the Socionics Institute defines Fe & Fi:

Wow, and you didn't swerve to avoid ramming your car right into it! You must not have seen it coming until it was too late to hit the brakes and avoid collision..

Your post has some formatting issues which made me not want to read it.

[Suz]

Yeah I think that maybe Fe or Fi might differentiate various empathetic responses and understandings of empathy but neither is the defining function of whether or not one is empathetic.

Very well said.

[Aylen]

Thanks for the quote notification to basically say you didn't give a shit to read my well thought-out post.

I was just returning the favor to you for coming in and immediately calling the thread a trainwreck when people obviously shared their own well thought out ideas on the subject. Well thought out presentation goes a long way when wanting to share information. Don't you think? Why would you expect others to consider your offerings after calling theirs a trainwreck?

[Suz]

I was just returning the favor to you for coming in and immediately calling the thread a trainwreck when people obviously shared their own well thought out ideas on the subject. Well thought out presentation goes a long way when wanting to share information. Don't you think? Why would you expect others to consider your offerings after calling theirs a trainwreck?

I felt the same as you, incidentally...

[Reginald FlaxSeed]

INFj

[darya]

As already said, linking empathy with types/functions is highly questionable. Actions are what really counts, so it doesn't matter if someone (logical types for example) don't feel something if they do what's right and offer support for people/causes in different way. Just feeling empathy and doing nothing = who gives a shit, unless you want a golden star for being a "good person". But to stir some shit up, I see Fi types as mostly empathetic towards their OWN feelings.

I had to learn in English what the distinction between empathy and sympathy even means, because in my language we don't have it - we only use empathy and sympathy/sympathetic means something completely else. So it's really unnatural to think in these two categories. Nor do I understand how one can use only empathy or only sympathy in its rawest definition - they are interwined.

I see myself as empathetic, because I do understand other's emotional states and my emotional states naturally mirror others. I don't like seeing people unhappy and want to improve their mood. I also think I'm very good with offering emotional support if I feel like it. But my responses are quite short-term and I can also turn the empathy completely off if I hate someone - I get really calm and rationally feel metal wall lowering between me and my emotions and I start feeling nothing and not caring what happens to this person (=wishing them all the worst) - I don't see them as human anymore, if I decide so. These are extreme examples though.

[wacey]

@darya

[darya]

@wacey

Nice video, but do you see Fi as empathy in this case and Fe as sympathy? Cause I don't at all...It depends on the situation whether you react as a deer or a bear...whether you feel the problems of the fox are difficult enough to justify such a reaction and whether you want to connect with the fox in the first place. Deer just seem like a plain old asshole, I still don't get how she's supposed to be sympathetic in any way

The problem I have with this video is that it's too black/white and simplistic...the same I see sometimes Fi egos dividing people into good people/bad people categories and putting labels on their moral character from their subjective pov, which I find irritating.

[wacey]

No, the video was just talking about the difference between sympathy and empathy as those words are defined and how the act of the two play out in real life situations. If you ever take counselling classes, or active listening training, you would notice these definitions are sort of bread and butter for social workers, psychologists, councillors, school counsellors ect.

Like I've stated before, I do not believe the ability to empathize is related to an informational element. However, I do think how a guy choses to act on that empathy might fit into an Fe or Fi category. I can't really think of any examples of the top of my head.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Always liked compassion over empathy. Empathy makes you too weak and goyim-y kind of, okay so you absorb what they went through, but what about your OWN experiences and identity? Compassion feels like 'bad-ass' empathy sort of. A woman for example is way more likely to date a man with compassion than with empathy. Women also hold compassion in a higher regard than empathy. Those completely on the bottom of the social totem pole are the empathetic ones.

Empathy is everybody being stuck in that same shitty situation along with everybody else and being powerless to stop it, compassion is one person rising above it and holding a hand out for others to be more powerful like they learned how to be. Yeah that is more snooty but it's actually more helpful. Also powerful people exploit and manipulate the empathy of others all the time. It is a lot harder to exploit and manipulate compassion.

[darya]

sympathy



noun, plural sympathies.1.harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the partof one person with respect to another.

2.the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons of like tastesor opinion or of congenial dispositions.

3.the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, especially in sorrowor trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.

4.sympathies.

• feelings or impulses of compassion.
• feelings of favor, support, or loyalty:

Still not seeing how deer is sympathetic in any way Not trying to be an asshole btw.

[darya]

Sympathy is sometimes used interchangeably with empathy but can also mean pity. The deer in the video is demonstrating pity.

Yeah, that's plain pity. But pity is not the same as compassion. Ok, thanks : )

[Aylen]

So the real reason was you felt insulted about the trainwreck comment, and not any of your bullshit about formatting issues.

Well I appreciate your speaking up, especially if others shared your sentiment.

[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

The two are not mutually exclusive. I often skip stuff with formatting issues, usually without comment to the poster. This time I commented. I said what I meant. Your opening comment just made it easier for me to do so.

It was not a matter of feeling insulted, at first. I found your lead in amusing and wondered why you bothered to post in a trainwreck, but the reason for your post comes out in your response to me. You feel you somehow have superior information to share.

I found it more arrogant that you assumed that others wanted to read your "well thought out" opinions after trashing theirs (by association). Whether that was your intention or not. It came off that way in your reply to me.

The only thing I find insulting is your accusation that my motives for responding were masked when they were not. I thought I was being pretty straightforward. You basically are calling me a liar and THAT is insulting.

"you felt insulted about the trainwreck comment, and not any of your bullshit about formatting issues."

[macysmama]

Thanks for the 2 videos above. I am seriously like a walking blob of empathy! LOL Remember, I'm the silly one who scored 74 on that test? I am so empathetic, I can feel other's feelings so much, sometimes it is not helpful. Sometimes I have to completely "Shut off" my empathy to move forward with someone or in a given situation and then I become cold hearted. (By my standards anyway) It's got to be type related the extreme role empathy plays in my life...

[wacey]

Perhaps one can chalk it up to a lack of empathy on my part but according to the definitions of empathy and sympathy (or pity) found in that video above with the cutesy animals, favoring connection above all I would say that I am not particularly concerned with that. Whenever someone is undergoing some hardship the desire to create some sort of connection as an end in itself never enters my mind. I tend to respond with the impulse to enact whatever can be done to help this person overcome this situation, to endure, to become stronger from it. In many respects I can totally relate to what @BulletsAndDoves is getting at in saying that empathy is for the weak -- that sort of connection is fine but sometimes it may not be what is actually needed in the long run. If it is apart of the process of helping a person or a group of persons then fine but I see it as too shortsighted as the primary goal itself, and perhaps even potentially self-indulgent.

All valid points.

And see this is what the video is speaking about sympathy: trying to move the person from where they currently are on your terms, from the position of your shoes, your agenda. That comes much later in a space of acceptance. In order for a person to move forward with your help they need to feel validated and accepted. To be there for another person empathetically means to listen as a receiver, not as a critic. This is conveyed by having a desire to understand the other person, not seek agreement or change. Otherwise the other person is not empowered enough themselves to make their own changes.

A crisis is an emotional state we generate within ourselves as a result of our changing environment. Crisis, like the ones the animals talked about, requires that we draw from our inner strength to cope, as well as turn to others. It brings out both our strengths and our weaknesses. It can be a very humbling experience, but also a powerful one. It teaches us lessons, like those you talked about, it challenges us to move. Without it, we would never grow, or change.

To help a person in moments like this, especially, feelings of empathy and demonstrating that empathy is crucial in order for people to trust and open up with you.

To say that empathy is for the weak is something I could never agree with. Empathy is very powerful and like the video says does create a sort of sacred space around people. It can, however, be faked. (IE: Oprah) As well as bypassed (IE: Byron Katie).

What a person needs in the long run may or may not have anything to do with you. I agree. But building that connection with them might just be a catalyst for their own empowerment. People are not helpless. True empathy neither negates, nor minimizes what they are going through, nor does it attempt to rescue them by accommodating their feelings of helplessness.

[Aylen]

Maybe if you actually read the post, you would understand why the information is superior in this trainwreck of a thread. I stand by my statement. Don't let one formatting issue at the beginning throw you off.

I believe you can read it. You are capable. At least be honest with yourself.

I read your post even though you messed up the color quotation. Or you can not reciprocate and continue to choose to not read my post, and post another hissy fit, believing I'm unfoundedly arrogant. But you don't know what was in my post unless you read it. You can't compare information you don't know.

1. Don't patronize me.

2. Color quotation was from your post.

3.You haven't seen a hissy fit, yet.

4. I'll pass

[Slacker]

This thread made me think of this old thread:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...hlight=empathy

[marooned]

hah, slacker has a new despotic avatar. <3 (<--creepy bolt of affection out of nowhere)

[OSG]

Wow I missed a lot of action
I guess I will share my POV on this even though I just read the first page < I am so lazy so I couldn't continue

before I start here is a quote from the wikipedia:

Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another.

from this I would say Fe is empathy and Fi is sympathy.
actually if we use this comparison I would be a not bad sympathetic person with zero empathy, since even though I may feel a concern for the well-being of another, I have never shared their emotional state.

I can and do push my personal feelings aside when I know they will not be helpful to anyone involved. I can smile and laugh while crying inside but my personal feelings don't stop me from feeling exactly what another is feeling.

I have seen people who are like that and to tell you the truth I find this very confusing and if I didn't know these people I would have said they are insincere but it seems they are sincere which confuse me even more. I can't really understand how can they do it.

You're not in my frame of reference. Ever and now never will be

short and to the point, I like it

[Eliza Thomason]

We don't understand each other. You can't stop to find out what's going on and you can't reasonably make out the sequence of events or my expectations from the events. Therefore, we don't have good communication because it's producing asymmetric results. Therefore insults fly as one party tries to bring the other to do and say what the other party expects in the meanwhile producing more insults. I can only say this is either activity relations or something that mimics activity between you and I.

No, Activity relations are much more peaceful! You and @Aylen are the types you have typed yourselves as, EII and IEI, and you clearly have the Quasi-Identicals Relations* of EII/IEI - "relations of major misunderstanding". Every time you two communicate, I think: "They are not understanding each other". You are textbooks Quasi's!

"Quasi-Identical partners can interact with each other in a more or less peaceful manner if both partners are Thinking types. If they are both Feeling types however, they are likely to have an argumentative relationship." It always surprises me how you two related, especially of Aylen, because she (and her type) are extremely perceptive in understanding others. But, then, every type - even the understanding ones - has a "Quasi"...

Anyway, I get what your are saying, Maritsa. EII's are strong in empathy, expressed in a quiet way. When my EII sis-in-law chooses to give empathy - and its almost always for those in her close inner circle (her family and close friends) - it goes so deep and strong, and its loyal and consistent. EIIs have a special talent with it, and its a talent perfectly placed for your Dad when he needed it. Your sister's talents shine elsewhere. (She would be lots more fun at a party having trouble getting started than you!).

EIIs just seem to know how their loved ones are feeling, and respect it in a quiet, supportive way. When my son was young, going off to school for the first time in 3rd grade when we had previously spent the days together, I was anxious to know about his day when he came in the door. I would not press, because I remembered how, growing up, I would be annoyed with the "How was your day" questions when I got home from school. But I would try to find ways to "subtly" get him talking, usually unsuccessful, until I witnessed how my EII sis-in-law did it when I was there one day when her boys came home (my son must have been away with his father). She would practically ignore them when they came home! She had taught them how to get their own snacks, to pull a stool over to climb to the upper cabinet, and they would go silently doing their own thing. Then much later, after an hour or more of down time, or while they were doing other things, they might tell her something that happened that day, when they were ready. It really worked, because they would tell her a lot. She explained, when I asked, that she understood that after interacting with people all day they just want quiet transition time when they got home, and if she waited til they opened up when they wanted, they would be ready for a deeper conversation. She just had natural empathy for their mood, and respected it. It worked. So, it wasn't easy for me, but I imitated her. (My method of trying to "pry open" conversation with a few "well-placed" questions wasn't working, anyway..).

____________

I visited my EIE Quasi sis-in-law recently and I had remembered feeling misunderstood by her in the past, usually after-the-fact, so this time I made a real effort to see and appreciate her for who she is (assuming that I don't do it naturally with my Quasi) and also sometimes briefly clarified where I was coming from with my point of view, to minimize misunderstanding, and overall it felt better this time.)

[marooned]

from this I would say Fe is empathy and Fi is sympathy.
actually if we use this comparison I would be a not bad sympathetic person with zero empathy, since even though I may feel a concern for the well-being of another, I have never shared their emotional state.

the problem with this is that all human beings are capable of empathy and sympathy (unless they're a sociopath or something). there is a variance of course in how people use their "abilities" -- how much attention they pay, how much they value it, how self-absorbed vs. other focused, how actively they try to understand others, how much they care for one person vs. another, etc. and some people are naturally more empathetic or sympathetic than others.



empathy, as i see it, is something you can basically find in all mammals (at the very least). perhaps "social animals," would be the better guess.

i know this vid is really only talking about humans and primates... but you can't tell me, for instance, when one wolf starts howling that mournful sound and it soon turns into a chorus of mournful sounding howling, that there isn't an exchange of empathy going on there. (the mere ability to feel mournful or lonely when listening to the sound of a howling wolf is an example of empathy, btw, regardless of if the emotions being interpreted by the human mind are actually the ones the wolves are feeling.)

also, mirror neurons, as exciting as it may be to know of their existence, probably aren't the only brain circuitry involved in this by any means.

i think my argument about empathy, at least, is not that it's so amazing and complex that it's so much more than the fcts/imes; but that it is so simple, underlying and universal that, it can't be something like one fct/ime (i.e. ). sympathy is a little more complex i suspect, because it means actually *caring* about what your understanding of another's feelings or situation, tells you.