Making E4 descriptions based on Sx 6s with a bit of help from your "expert" is kind of an awful idea. Mostly for you, since other people actually care enough about the truth even if they're not 0.1% as loud as you are.Originally Posted by Ghost
Making E4 descriptions based on Sx 6s with a bit of help from your "expert" is kind of an awful idea. Mostly for you, since other people actually care enough about the truth even if they're not 0.1% as loud as you are.
@Wyrd ...hahahaha
Before, all 4s were actually 3s.. and now they are 6s? You are the enneagram Maritsa
4 way of falling in love: make up scenarios and things in your mind with the person of your interest, and fall in love that way while overlooking flaws they show in actual life...
I dont even know how to fall in love the "normal way".
2-minute summary of 4w3.
Too real... then getting disillusioned or overwhelmed when meeting the person in actual life. Sighing that you aren't as far into being close as in your imagination, or as perfect and emotionally intense.
Also, looking to others in jealousy leading their relationships in a seemingly perfect manner, or feeling satisfied when they end and split in drama so you can feel good about yourself. When you're with someone you want to be alone. When you're without someone you imagine it, yearning. Enneagram 4 sucks, we're all destroyed and broken.
e4s should just be happy about themselves. BE HAPPY ABOUT SOMETHING FOR ONCE YOU UNGRATEFUL ****. Stop... just stop turning everything into a tragedy. Stop looking for what's missing in your life. Stop being sad and depressed so that people would feel sorry for you. And stop liking that, too. Stop being a tragic figure.
Saying that to an e4 will only make it worse. Because they won't deny or turn off their feelings - they work in the opposite way, channeling and expressing their sentiment is all they can do because they feel true that way. Stigmatizing sadness and depression is usually the exact reason why 4s feel ashamed - nobody acknowledges what they want to convey. Saying that what they express resonates with you and that you see their point will make them feel way better. Preventing them from being unhappy will make them unhappier, respecting it will back them up. It's counterintuitive but "stop" for enneagram 4 is like a "go" sign, they will do the reverse of what they are told either way. That requires you to get onto the level of tragedy empathetically, that's a challenge. Saying "don't be like that" can only come from a person who is desperately afraid of feeling incomplete and tragic. The latter is something you can't actually avoid; it's human nature - yin/yang, sad times, good times. So if you can feel what a 4 feels, you will become more human.
I appreciate when someone makes me realize im subconsciously making things harder and worse in my head, even though it can make me feel invalidated at first, it is helpful. Its realizing thought patterns which is good. But you cant just say to a 4 "just be happy", just as you cant say to a 7 "stop running from sadness", or a 9 "stop avoiding conflict". self-improvement takes a loooooong time
Do you think all 4s get sad or depressed so others feel sorry for them? People pitying me will only raise my ire since it feels like they are looking down on me. Acknowledgment and understanding > pity. Empathy is fine. Not everyone is actively seeking happiness. For me it is a byproduct of experiencing other things fully. If I were always happy it would prevent me from appreciating and contrasting the "happiness" against the full range of emotional expression available to me. Being sad can actually make me more grateful for what I do have because I have that contrast.
Back to my regularly scheduled program.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
For the most part... yes. Or to attract a "rescuer".
Well I think everyone is seeking happiness, in the end. Even the desire to suffer is motivated by the hope of attaining happiness in the end. I mean there is suffering in the world and you do suffer and get depressed sometimes, but there's no need to hold onto it.
You realize that this says more about your perception and your desires than anything, right? Your motivation might be happiness, in the end. Mine might be something totally foreign to you... I only hold onto something as long as it serves me. Letting go isn't hard once I know the true meaning behind the "suffering". If I try to push it away I am not learning the lesson and it will come back, sometimes even worse than before.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Everyone wants to be happy. I don't think that there's a single person in the world who only wants suffering. Would you trade the happiness that you have now for suffering? If you had a choice, would you choose happiness or suffering instead?
There appears to be a lack of understanding here. :/ You are assuming I am happy right now, for one. I am neither happy or sad. You are assuming if I am not happy then I am suffering, which isn't true. You are assuming that when I am just sad I am suffering which isn't always the case. I don't think there is anything I could tell you that would lead to understanding, unfortunately.
I am aware I can make choices. I just don't always want to choose happiness in every moment. When I am happy I just feel it and appreciate it while it lasts. I am not a pessimist ruining it by thinking it isn't going to last. I am an optimistic person by nature but that does not make me seek happiness to the exclusion of everything else. I would not be true to myself if I did that. It doesn't mean I am depressed or ungrateful when I am not happy.
Hmm, let me just fall back on this for now.
Seven -- The Enthusiast
Life is a banquet. Explore it all.
Motivation:
Toward: Be happy, plan fun things, contribute to the world.
Away from: Pain and suffering.
Focus of attention: Best case possibilities, pleasant plans, options.
Four – The Individualist
Feelings and being authentic are most important.
Motivation:
Toward: Being unique and special finding the meaning of life.
Away from: Being ordinary.
Focus of attention: The past, the future, the absent, the hard to get. On what is missing
Anyway, are you taking your own advice given a few posts back?
e4s should just be happy about themselves. BE HAPPY ABOUT SOMETHING FOR ONCE YOU UNGRATEFUL ****. Stop... just stop turning everything into a tragedy. Stop looking for what's missing in your life. Stop being sad and depressed so that people would feel sorry for you. And stop liking that, too. Stop being a tragic figure.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Yeah, I mean like theoretically. When you're happy, do you just suddenly go and think, "Hmm, I'm bored with being happy now, I would love to go for a bit of suffering... or boredom", or whatever? Probably not... This it to when you said suffering gives "contrast" to happiness.
And yeah, I'm aware that you can't be happy all the time. My point was that don't seek suffering and tragedy, and don't just invent suffering and tragedy out of nowhere, which is something 4s can do. Which goes back to the suffering giving "contrast" or "variety" to experience... It's like saying, "After the suffering, there will be happiness...". But why would you do that, when you can just be happy instead? Why would you suffer just so that you can be happy later?
I agree that a lot of e4 suffering is overdramatized or curated.. although other types can be like this too ime. Aylen's perspective is probably one coming from preferring to explore and express, rather than stifle or ignore one's own feelings. In any case when you just state advice like that straightforwardly, people are more likely to think you're abusing or say you're misunderstanding them and will want you to go away or want to do the opposite rather than actually listening and I don't think that's type related. I'm sure you can relate @Singularity .
You say theoretically as if you have not had enough life experience to show you how it all works, irl. You are being very black and white with all this happiness or suffering. When something starts to sound like a platitude I tune it out.
Hmm, let me try another way. I wrote something out in response but I deleted because I want you to explain exactly what you mean by "seeking suffering". I have an idea but I want you to lay it all out for me, if you want to that is, since this is more about your perception of 4. I would like to know why you type yourself a 4 core?
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I think a four telling other fours that they overdramaticize the pain and "just stop focusing on the pain" is indicative of someone... not being a four, unless the person has known about their type for 20 something years which I dont think is the case
^ I agree with that actually and had the same thoughts. It sounds like the person in question might have e5 core issues instead.
It is strange for me too since I, usually, have no problem understanding another 4 on whatever level they may be operating from now. I was feeling a disconnect here, like whatever I said was going to be misunderstood, so it made me curious. The main thing I feel with other 4s is that there is a meeting of the hearts and minds, with less effort, when it comes to understanding the emotional depth that is available and how we can use that to see the beauty in just about anything. Unless someone is suicidal, (could be chemical and ntr) I think it is fine to allow them a space to work it out for themselves. If I want someone's help or insight I will ask for but it is called introspecting for a reason. Other people, who don't understand, can just confuse me further. The greatest gift I get from other 4s is the insight that comes from all the mixed emotions intertwined with suffering. Once they unravel them the end product can be awe inspiring.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I can relate to this:
better than this:
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Super good example. What do you type Christian as?
I feel the same. The second is more of a healthy 7 quote, a 7 who ceases to live in the future. Osho truly exposes the blame the 4 wants to shift to others expecting to be saved in return, and 4's capacity to consciously create their own emotion.I can relate to this:
better than this:
...What? You said I assumed that you were happy right now, when the focus wasn't on you, I asked you a what if question. I don't see how this is black and white.You say theoretically as if you have not had enough life experience to show you how it all works, irl. You are being very black and white with all this happiness or suffering. When something starts to sound like a platitude I tune it out.
Hmm, let me try another way. I wrote something out in response but I deleted because I want you to explain exactly what you mean by "seeking suffering". I have an idea but I want you to lay it all out for me, if you want to that is, since this is more about your perception of 4. I would like to know why you type yourself a 4 core?
Um... to be honest, even I'm sick of being sad and depressed all the time. It's not like e4s don't ever want to be happy, and just want to suffer all the time. Anyway, I was more thinking of a specific person when I wrote that, and it was also more to myself. Of course, this is also influenced by Buddhist thoughts.
Hmm, I suggest that you watch this video to see where I'm coming from:
You did make an assumption by asking me if I would trade my current happiness for suffering. If you read back I was the one who said it said more about you than anything but you responded with "Everyone wants to be happy" even though I said that was not my motivation. You made it about me when you said "everyone" when you could have just said, "yep its about me".I Hope you feel better.
I have seen the video before. He lacks understanding.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Wow.. I literally said that, almost word for word, to someone in my house just a twenty minutes ago.I can relate to this:
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Yes... and I meant that "everyone" includes you too, obviously. And I tried to prove you a point by asking you if you would rather suffer than be happy. That's what the whole conversation was about.You did make an assumption by asking me if I would trade my current happiness for suffering. If you read back I was the one who said it said more about you than anything but you responded with "Everyone wants to be happy" even though I said that was not my motivation. You made it about me when you said "everyone" when you could have just said, "yep its about me".
ENVY AND DEPRESSIVE MASOCHISTIC CHARACTER: ENNEA-TYPE IV
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-fo...-type-4-a.html
"... While the masochistic pattern is widely recognized today among psychologically sophisticated laymen, this is not to be attributed so much to the influence of Melanie Klein (who failed to point out an envy-centered personality type) nor to Reich (for the word masochistic in bioenergetics has shifted in its original meaning and has come to designate our cyclothymic ennea-type IX) but, rather, to Eric Berne’s Games People Play where it is echoed in the games labeled “Ain’t it Awful,” “Blamish,” “Kick Me,” and “Broken Skin.” “Ain’t it Awful,” according to Berne, finds its most dramatic expression in “polysurgery addicts”: “They are Doctor Shoppers, people who actively seek surgery even in the face of some medical opposition.” Concerning this type of person he makes the same observation that Schneider records concerning his “depressive” psychopaths: “Overtly expresses distress but is covertly gratified at the prospect of the satisfaction he can bring from his misfortune.”
I think that the most insightful and articulate discussion of masochistic character in the literature thus far is that by Karen Horney—who, however, sometimes discusses the syndrome in terms of the over-generalization of “self-effacement.” Here is what Horney’s disciple Harold Kelman says of masochism in Wolman’s International Encyclopedia of Psychology: “According to Horney masochism is neither a love for suffering for its own sake nor a biologically predetermined self negating process. It is a form of relating and its essence is the weakening or extinction of the individual self and merging witha person or power believed to be greater than oneself.” This observation corresponds with the self-shrinking aspect of envy, and an intense craving to absorb into oneself the values perceived in others, but also a willingness to suffer for this “love” or, more exactly said, love-need. The entry continues: “Masochism is a way of coping with life through dependency and self minimizing. Though it is most obvious in the sexual area, it encompasses the total range of human relations. As part of a neurotic character development, masochism has its own special purposes and value system. The neurotic suffering may serve the defensive purposes of avoiding recriminations, competitions, and responsibility. It is a way of expressing accusations and vindictiveness in a disguised form. By exaggerating and inviting suffering, it justifies demands for affection, control and reparations. In the distorted value system of the masochism, suffering is raised to a virtue and serves as the basis for claims to love, acceptance and rewards. Since the masochist takes pride in and identifies with the self-effacing suffering, subdued self, an awareness of conflicting drives towards expansiveness and self-glorification as well as a healthy striving for growth would be destructive to his self-image. By abandoning himself to uncompromised hatred for the intolerable side of himself, the masochistic attempts to eliminate the conflict of contradictory impulses, thus a masochist has engulfed himself in self-hate and suffering. ..."
^ there is a surprising amount of inverted narcissism that can hide behind this
Beta NF, Sx/Sp.
I have been going back and forth between typing him as either IEI-Fe or EIE-Ni.
self-portraits, created by SEI 4
is better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all
something Ni something e4 - Syndrome "Now and Forever"
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