When I get this thought "It's not them speaking right now, it's something more global" - I think of this. Disclaimer: true authenticity is a myth and hardly achievable either way, it's just pretending to be a polar opposite of the standard in a lot of cases.
lonerwolf, ugh. Also, the mask with a quote about authenticity just makes me think of Goya, but then, I think about Goya fairly often anyways. With people, the real can become fake and the fake real and any moment. Only animals can have no pretenses.
.
Last edited by dot; 02-17-2020 at 01:43 PM.
is this Johnny Deep? lol
sx/sp 4w5
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
INTEGRATION (Loops)
Healthy loop: Run by the Basic Desire of ‘Needing self-understanding’, they allow emotions to surface & examine them in order to understand them-selves. Then the need is satisfied & balance is achieved.
Average state: when 4s’ don’t closely examine their emotions, they can’t understand themselves, increases the need to figure out who they are. This can push 4s into willingness to face their feelings, establishing a balance.
Unhealthy loop is run by the Basic Fear of ‘being defective, which can cause 4s to ignore their true selves, allow their emotions to overwhelm them, & indulge in wild fantasy about themselves (envy). This leads to understanding themselves even less, further increases the basic fear & prevents balance.
LENS you see the world through: “How can I express my creativity and uniqueness in this situation?”
GROWTH: Breaking control of the basic fear comes from not indulging in fantasy and start examining oneself realistically.
I see alot of people misunderstanding Envy. I Envy because I see someone who seems more unique and special than me (and wanted). Or I see someone who seems to be able to express themselves effortlessly. I cant express myself in the way I want, it feels like it comes out in the wrong way or people misunderstand.
When I start to Envy someone, I dont want to accept that to myself because it feels disrespectful to myself, it feels pathetic and I'm better than that. Thats how Envy disguises itself as Hate for that person.
When I accept that what I'm feeling is Envy, I turn it inwards to myself and then it turns into self-hatred. Partly because I am not like them (and because of that I must be uninteresting and mundane) and partly because I am Envying someone which is a betrayal to myself. I obsess about the ones I Envy and idealize them in an unrealistic way. To be unique again I have to consume them, I have to BE them, replicate their life stories. I dont actually do this because that would be pathetic and inauthentic but it stays in my mind like a fairytale or something, until it lets go, and then I am over it.
Last edited by maniac; 07-03-2017 at 08:38 AM.
Everyone can be envious of someone else. Just because someone is envious of what someone else has does not automatically mean they have a 4 fix or wing. What @maniac described there shows the difference between "regular" envy and Type 4-specific envy.
I thought this was 4w3 because of the dramatic music and grand images.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
sx/so 4w3
My reflection dirty mirror
There's no connection to myself
I'm your lover I'm your zero
I'm the face in your dreams of glass
So save your prayers
For when you're really gonna need 'em
Throw out your cares and fly
Want to go for a ride?
She's the one for me
She's all I really need, oh yeah
She's the one for me
Emptiness is loneliness and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness, and God is empty just like me
Intoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness
Bullshit fakers, enchanted kingdoms
The fashion victims chew their charcoal teeth
I never let on, that I was on a sinking ship
I never let on that I was down
You blame yourself, for what you can't ignore
You blame yourself for wanting more
She's the one for me
She's all I really need, oh yeah
She's the one for me
She's my one and only
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
Are type 4s really that envious? I would rather call myself jealous when it comes to loved one's than being very materialistic/envious in a way.. I would rather say the work of others actually makes me wanna try even harder.. idk.Originally Posted by Medusa
I am also a bit confused about the self-confidence part.. like most people describe me as very self-confident.. and I would also say I am confident about a lot of things I do.. I just feel self-conscious about me being a bad/deficient person, like there is something 'wrong' with me that seperates me from others. I mean everyone will feel self-conscious about something and I do feel a lot of shame in certain situations.. but not with everything tbh.. I occasionally have a lot of shamelessness about me.
I internally do care about a lot more things than I show though and I feel (like already mentioned) shame about specific things, not everything though. Like I can be very blunt.
Last edited by dot; 07-08-2017 at 03:07 PM.
4s Passion is Envy. The types are run by their Passion when Virtue is lacking (Equanimity for 4), and it fuels our Fixation (Melancholy for 4).
Therefore, Envy is an important theme in 4, yes. Not just jealousy. 4, 1 and 7 are frustration types, which means the "good stuff" is just out of reach. Frustration. They will never be quite content. For 4, the good stuff never existed, only appears in very limited quantity, or was a thing of the past. (4s look backward, 7s look forward).
4 is a compulsion toward comparing themselves to others, looking for even tiny things to validate their view of themselves as being defective. That they are so obsessed with this comparing makes a very good environment for Envy to grow. Like soil and water
Last edited by maniac; 07-08-2017 at 02:51 PM.
Well I sometimes do look back and think.. some things could've been better .. like why did it go down this way? So I am barely content in the moment.. but if I am "envious" then not really about materialistic things.. I am not a very materialistic person in general though. And not uber self.conscious about everything either.. but hese might be rather individual differences, which are caused by other things such as environment/ upbringing? idk
Maybe less about materialistic things and more about things such as popularity, friends?
I could relate to the e4 tendency to reject people before they can reject you.. I think I did that in the past, and even today sometimes.
When did anyone mention materialism?
I usually connect envy with materialistic things such as "my neighbour has this really shiny car" -> thus I am envious of his new car.. but maybe I didn't get what the 4 envy is related to exactly?
Yeah, that is rather Type 3 envy. My 3w4 sister can be envious like that. Whenever someone has something she doesn't have and it seems cool, she wants it. Once she was friends with someone who had a tree house, and that made her want a tree house herself. She bugged my mother long enough, so that eventually our neighbour built a treehouse for her. She went into that treehouse a few times, and that was it. Actually having that thing didn't truly bring her any kind of deeper satisfaction. I had criticized her for that before, always wanting something just because someone else does, but then at the end not truly caring for it. Maybe that's an average to unhealthy 3w4 thing in particular.
Personally, I tend to envy people who are quite similar to me but seem to be the better version of myself, or who are closer to my personal ideal view of myself. That envy turns into self-hatred when I am unhealthy.
Hmm, I can definitely relate to that. I agree that is 3 and I always thought 3 and 4 were both envious but in different ways (esp. 3w4).
Would you extend that to "I really want that body", or is that when it becomes too self-critical and more 4? The line between 3 and 4 is always fascinating to look at.
When I see other people with nice things or doing cool things I always expect to just have it and get mad if I don't. I do the same thing with bugging my parents about it like, "everyone else has X".
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
I think the difference between 3's and 4's envy is the fact that the envy of 4 is always strongly tied to their own personal identity and their ideal version of themselves.
Whereas the envy of 3 is much more generalized in a way. In case of 3w4, their envy is more individualistic and personalized in comparison to the envy of a 3w2. The 3w2 is the kind of person who'd just want the newest sports car or the newest gadget because it is trendy right now. They don't have a particularly individual take on the matter. Their identity is of being successful, so almost any cool sports car would do (if they are 4 wing, the sports car would have to match their tastes more closely, but it is the same principle). Whereas with a Type 4, their identity is tied to being either "unique" or more accurately "uniquely themselves", "being one of a kind", etc. Sometimes, 4w3 create their personal identity of wanting to be successful as well, so they may also get the fancy car to appear successful. But usually, their identity goes deeper than just being successful or trendy etc.
I see! Thanks for clarifying.. hmm well I can see what you mean.. though maybe my w3 let's me handle it a bit differently? Like I see these people who really have/ got what I want to be.. like I see them doing well.. and I like what they are doing, so I get more competitive about it and instead of dwelling I just wanna get there myself? Like I know I will have to work for it if I want to 'keep' up, not sure though. But yes it is more about "who I wanna be".. I also have a very specific image in my mind, which most people do not fulfill, thus this only happens with very specific people, like I am naturally competitive, but mostly my close friends who have somewhat similar goals are somewhat considerable as worthy to strive with them.. which sounds super arrogant, but only very specific cases fulfill these requirements.
That's how I would describe it myself though, without the enneagram words. My former teachers and lots of people call me very driven and goal-oriented. I can definitely see the 'envy' part more clearly now, interesting, never viewed it that way.
Good way of explaining it!I also think every assertive type has an issue with patience. When they see something they desire they just expect to have it and it can often lead to envy or anger when it doesn't go that way. So I see this thing with many types and not just 4 as it's classically stated in enneagram. 4 goes deeper, as you said.
That's why it's so easy for people to mistype as 4, or as any of the other listed types. Not to mention the motivations of the assertive types all kind of go into each other, ex. if you want to be admirable you generally want to be powerful and avoid pain, too. And if you want to be successful you generally want to be distinct, too (more 3w4 but 3w2 certainly doesn't want to be forgotten in the crowd either).
The thing with enneagram is that you really have to go all in to actually figure out what you are and it's difficult for so many people. It was for me and it still can be.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
This clarifies a few things I have been thinking about. I chased a beautiful IEI who might very well have been an e4w3. When I met her, she was engaged (for two years) to a rich LSE architect, who was an ex-Marine, and who had one of the most beautiful and tasteful homes in a big city. He was also 27 years older than she was, and she absolutely didn't care. She completely romanticized him. What broke them up was the daily conflict between an LSE and an IEI. I think he basically threw her out.
I very well remember that month. At one point, she started yelling at me in public for not being raised well enough to appreciate the finer points of Buffalo meat in a crepe. Lol.
I don't really get the example tbh.. my example was a reference to the envy part, like I have a very specific image in my mind of who I want to be and what I want to do with my life and only very specific people do something similar/ are considerable as someone worthy to compete with or feel the 'envy'. Most of the people are my close friends, like their will to move on makes me even more willing to fight for what I want idk. When they got a bit further to their goals, I want to keep up at the same time.
This was not about a specific image in my mind when it comes to romance and someone not fulfilling an expectation, lol.
This doesn't sound like Type 4 specific envy to me. This just sounds like having a vision and goals.
Somehow I get the impression you might be a Type 9 with a 4 fix. Ever considered that before?
9s move to 3 when they are integrating, btw. That's why you could think you are w3.
Actually I talked to another IEI friend today and we read through the enneagram descriptions together. I rather think she is a type 9, very conflict avoidant irl and very peaceful. I can't relate to most parts of the type 9 description and I never even considered it to be part of my tritype at all. I always considered to be either an e1 (maybe 1w9 if it is in my tritype) or e4 as enneagram (Chae suggested that there might be a cp6 in my tritype).This doesn't sound like Type 4 specific envy to me. This just sounds like having a vision and goals.
Somehow I get the impression you might be a Type 9 with a 4 fix. Ever considered that before?
9s move to 3 when they are integrating, btw. That's why you could think you are w3.
My SEI roommate seems to be an e9, she basically always avoided and hated conflict from childhood on, is very peaceful and tolerant and also lacks a bit of her own identity, she really sees her big brother as her idol and does everything he does.. even job wise. My IEI friend is a bit similar since she partially follows the path her parents/family/close friends give her. Things I cannot really identify with, since I always just did my own thing.
I actually let Aylen and Bled 'look at me' and they said I sounded like an e4. I would also rather relate to the e4 'special-snowflakeness' and also to their self-awareness and fear of being deficient. I also sometimes am stuck with the past like I can't let go sometimes and this was pointed out by many people irl already. My IEI friend who is probably a type 9 is very different compared to that, idk.
I think I have a different tritype than Aylen and you or Starfall so maybe that is why I 'vibe' a bit differently.
I am not 100% sure yet.. but the whole description of the "Philosopher" (4 and 1 and 6 in whatever order in your tritype) didn't sound so off.. otherwise I also related to the combo of 4-1-7.. but somehow I don't think I have a 7 in me. This is actually hard the tritype thing.
Definitely 416.I am not 100% sure yet.. but the whole description of the "Philosopher" (4 and 1 and 6 in whatever order in your tritype) didn't sound so off.. otherwise I also related to the combo of 4-1-7.. but somehow I don't think I have a 7 in me. This is actually hard the tritype thing.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
Did you not read my post that Cassandra was commenting on, which was the comment you responded too..?
Ah no I didn't I just saw Cassandra's post and asked why e4 was envious of something. Sorry!
Could totally see Murakami as IEI!
Haruki Murakami
Born in Kyoto, Japan January 12, 1949
Websitehttp://www.harukimurakami.com
I am pretty sure he is a 4w5 IEI-Ni, leaning toward sx/sp>sp/sx If he isn't I want him to be.
Sevdaliza.. a new avant-garde artist I recently discovered and another emerging 'oriental' artist (she is Iranian-Dutch) on the rise, so happy about discovering her. To me she is an obvious e4.. not sure about the wing.. but man her visuals speak to me.. so deep/dark/obscure. She probably is ESI. I feel very at home when watching her videos. They are art in its purest form.
Last edited by dot; 07-08-2017 at 11:58 PM.
The album cover of Sevdaliza's debut album:
@Medusa @DaddyLessons @Chae got some enneagram questions: are you naturally attracted to the type you integrate to, but it isn't a mutual attraction? like e4 into e1?
Because I read there were lots of e6 and e9 couples.. since e6 integrates to e9 but e9 disintegrates to e6 is this an uneven relationship for example?
And for a IEI 4w3 which SLE ennearam type would be the best match theoretically? From the possible SLE types such as 3,6,7 and 8 I mean.
Last edited by dot; 07-13-2017 at 03:13 PM.
There does seem to be a trend of people being attracted to their integration type...
Once in a while there is a fictional Type 1 I find attractive, but IRL I am almost never attracted to any 1s...
The relationship might be somewhat uneven, but this can be balanced out by a "Benefit" stacking (e.g So/Sx 6 with Sx/Sp 9), or just other high compatibility points...
The "best" Enneagram match theoretically, which I called "Enneagram Dual", depends on your tritype.
For a Type 4 (416), the best match would be a Type 9 (core).
For whom Type 4 (core) is the best match: 125, 126, 135, 136, 147, 258, 369.
None of those types are really SLE, afaik.
So, take this with a grain of salt...
At the end of the day, "Enneagram duality" is not that important, it is just the cherry on top of an already nice cake.
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