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Thread: INFx types in Socionics and MBTI (split)

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    Default INFx types in Socionics and MBTI (split)

    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    For balance's sake I'd like to play around with the title a bit.

    IEI seems like a type stuck in the middle between "feeler" and "thinker".
    But if you mix ILI and LII you don't get that middle, you just get an asshole robot who is kinda charming, plotting world domination, too lazy to make it happen and is really, REALLY good at physics. xD

    While ILI is more emotional than LII, they aren't as emotion influenced to make an IEI. I'd simply replace the ILI with EII.
    Because after all, while SO MANY damn IEIs think they're LII (been there, done that xD), just as many EIIs think they're IEI.

    In place of EII, EIE + LII could also work for Fe subtype of IEI. =')
    seeing you come from personalitycafe, and reading your statement about EII thinking they are IEI, i just wanted to say you should be careful mixing MBTI with socionics.

    INFJ cognitive functions might be defined as Ni Fe Ti Se in MBTI and you might think the socionics equivalent is INFp, but if you read some of the descriptions and some more posts about INFjs here, you might see that they still describe the same type in MBTI and socionics

    so INFJ in MBTI terms doesnt necessarily equal INFp in socionics

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    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    so INFJ in MBTI terms doesnt necessarily equal INFp in socionics
    That's what mistyped people tell themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    That's what mistyped people tell themselves.
    well this mistype mentality comes more across as some sort of elitism than anything else

    MBTI INFJ is overall also my best fit and the socionics Infj descriptions fit me more than the Infp descriptions

    IJ temperament >> IP temperament

    But i wonder if you have read that stuff or just went directly from MBTI functions to the socionics equivalent, without reading some socionics material first.
    Last edited by veult; 12-17-2014 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    well this mistype mentality comes more across as some sort of elitism than anything else
    You must FEEEL that way about me, you can't possibly come from a place of reason, nor do I care to ask before presuming otherwise, it's how you "come across", says the supposed MBTI INFJ...

    MBTI INFJ is overall also my best fit and the socionics Infj descriptions fit me more than the Infp descriptions
    West wanks the IEI, East wanks EII. You wish to be wanked. That's all.

    But i wonder if you have read that stuff or just went directly from MBTI functions to the socionics equivalent, without reading some socionics material first.
    I read everything. And I mean everything I could find online on the socionics transition of INFJ to IEI/INFp and INFP to EII/INFj. It's a perfect fit on both fronts.
    People who say otherwise tend to be MBTI mistypes, since MBTI is much easier to mistype anyway.

    Also look at your punctuation. It's one of the most common ways INFPs give themselves away. I who don't even come from an English speaking country would never be able to leave the mistakes you do. It would just bother me.

    But I can't force you to believe me, or the little signs I see here. It's your own self typing. Do what you want.

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    I am not sure of the point of this other than to say maybe absolutely nothing is type related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    You must FEEEL that way about me, you can't possibly come from a place of reason, nor do I care to ask before presuming otherwise, it's how you "come across", says the supposed MBTI INFJ...


    West wanks the IEI, East wanks EII. You wish to be wanked. That's all.


    I read everything. And I mean everything I could find online on the socionics transition of INFJ to IEI/INFp and INFP to EII/INFj. It's a perfect fit on both fronts.
    People who say otherwise tend to be MBTI mistypes, since MBTI is much easier to mistype anyway.

    Also look at your punctuation. It's one of the most common ways INFPs give themselves away. I who don't even come from an English speaking country would never be able to leave the mistakes you do. It would just bother me.

    But I can't force you to believe me, or the little signs I see here. It's your own self typing. Do what you want.
    MBTI INFP mistyping as MBTI INFJ is a sentiment from personalitycafe, go argue about that MBTI bullshit over there.

    Don't start spreading this kind of stuff here. It is a discussion about the socionics INFp type. Not the MBTI INFJ type.

    You could at least try to back up your statement from a socionics point of view. I want to see where you are coming from.

    As you can see from my location i don't come from an english speaking country, so yeah could be that my punctuation and grammar is not absolutely p-e-r-f-e-ct.

    But again, you just make this nonsensical statement that my punctuation gives my type away. YEAH right couldn't be that i display it openly in my profile. But Again, argue, explain, just try a little bit to back up your half assed statements!

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    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    MBTI INFP mistyping as MBTI INFJ is a sentiment from personalitycafe, go argue about that MBTI bullshit over there.

    Don't start spreading this kind of stuff here. It is a discussion about the socionics INFp type. Not the MBTI INFJ type.

    You could at least try to back up your statement from a socionics point of view. I want to see where you are coming from.

    As you can see from my location i don't come from an english speaking country, so yeah could be that my punctuation and grammar is not absolutely p-e-r-f-e-ct.

    But again, you just make this nonsensical statement that my punctuation gives my type away. YEAH right couldn't be that i display it openly in my profile. But Again, argue, explain, just try a little bit to back up your half assed statements!
    The functions match.
    The commonly accepted descriptions overlap. What else do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    As you can see from my location i don't come from an english speaking country, so yeah could be that my punctuation and grammar is not absolutely p-e-r-f-e-ct.
    Are telling me you speak English this well and you genuinely don't know to capitalise your "I" when you reffer to yourself? To use a comma when you pause in speech? To put a dot at the end of your sentence and capitalise it's beginning?

    I'm not being a grammar Nazi here, I don't care how you write.
    But INFJs who put lots into written expression and take only partcular things to be perfectionistic about, tend not to do that.

    Again it's not PROOF you're MBTI INFP. It's a hint. But too many hints in here.
    Last edited by lapa83; 12-18-2014 at 11:45 AM.

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    It's been a while since we did not have an open cat fight about mistypings.

    *sits down to observe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    It's been a while since we did not have an open cat fight about mistypings.

    *sits down to observe
    Wish they'd hurry up, this is like the popcorn waiting for the trailers to end

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    The functions match.
    The commonly accepted descriptions overlap. What else do you want?


    Are telling me you speak English this well and you genuinely don't know to capitalise your "I" when you reffer to yourself? To use a comma when you pause in speech? To put a dot at the end of your sentence and capitalise it's beginning?

    I'm not being a grammar Nazi here, I don't care how you write.
    But INFJs who put lots into written expression and take only partcular things to be perfectionistic about, tend not to do that.

    Again it's not PROOF you're MBTI INFP. It's a hint. But too many hints in here.
    Well you mispronounced refer wrong in your post, do i take this little shit and blow it out of proportion.
    FUCK now your MBTI INFP too. See how that goes.
    This is a forum post not my dissertation. I write and often don't go back to edit every little shit.
    Some people (like moi) are a little bit more negligent about this punctuation stuff on forums.
    Making the jump from this to my type is rubbish. Maybe i don't make every comma, but how would you know if I'm not Mrs. Perfectionistic in other areas? Your Grammar statement is just bullshit. It's ntr.

    So before this shit stretches out to all eternity. I'll go ahead and explain my point of view.

    I type INFJ in MBTI. Period. I read posts, which describe Ni. I relate. It's not just Ni isoooo cool so mysterious this is meeee!
    I relate to a lot of weaknesses and thought processes. My typing is kinda consistent for some years now.
    So I identify with Ni- dom and Se- inferior regarding Cognitive Functions. I saw the Intuition and Sensing conflict very clearly in myself.
    Feeling before Thinking, so Fe- auxiliary and Ti tertiary made sense.

    When I started to read about Socionics I started to go with INFp as my type first. Well Ni should stay Ni right and Fe auxiliary should be Fe creative. And for the rest I thought that Beebe Archetypes and Model A kinda align. I could see the point of Se- inferior turning to Se suggestive. Te- polr turning to Te trickster. I assume you also go by this explanation, when you say the functions match. If not, then fucking state your point!

    So I went with this for a while. I read more about INFp and posts from self types INFps here and things didn't add up.

    Te-polr description read very much like Te inferior descriptions.

    Ip temperament was definetely not me. Ij all the way.

    When i started to read stuff about INFjs, about their weaknesses and how people who know INFj describe them I just thought well yeah that sounds more like me.
    Some Se- polr descriptions also read more like Se inferior descriptions.

    So I stand by my point. MBTI INFJ doesn't mean youre instant INFp here.
    Don't fucking mix'n'match two different systems. There are differencies. They don't overlap.

    If you're MBTI INFJ so Ni Fe and you want to keep that for socionics, well then INFp type for you.
    But if you're kinda go by dichotomies and descriptions and dig deeper you kinda see that INFj in socionics and MBTI INFJ just have sooo much in common.
    If you want to know what kind of overlap I see, send me a private message. Like i said i don't want to have this shit stretched out to all eternity.

    I believe that MBTI INFJ and Socionics INFj describe the same person (going only by descriptions). But the systems assign different functions to this personality. Well i would also wish the functions would stay the same. Ni should stay Ni. Because going with Intertype relations they sometimes make more sense, when i just go by functions. But well then there is other shit in Infp descriptions that doesn't add up like I said.

    And please, for the love of god, if you make the next statement about how i'm this and that, pls back it up with something like functions or dichotomy talk and not some shit, like my fucking punctuation or some ominous 'hints' (whatever that should mean). That's just more constructive. Thank you!
    Last edited by veult; 12-18-2014 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    Well you mispronounced refer wrong in your post, do i take this little shit and blow it out of proportion.
    FUCK now your MBTI INFP too. See how that goes.
    All I see is absence of Ti and an Fi hissy fit.

    This is a forum post not my dissertation. I write and often don't go back to edit every little shit.
    Some people (like moi) are a little bit more negligent about this punctuation stuff on forums.
    Making the jump from this to my type is rubbish.
    Your Grammar statement is just bullshit. It's ntr.
    And this is Te user rambling spree in anger. There is nothing Ti about you.

    So before this shit stretches out to all eternity.
    It already did.

    I type INFJ in MBTI. Period.
    Lol

    I read posts, which describe Ni. I relate.
    Post them.

    It's not just Ni isoooo cool so mysterious this is meeee!
    Oh I think it is.

    I relate to a lot of weaknesses and thought processes. My typing is kinda consistent for some years now.
    Your mistyping you mean.

    So I identify with Ni- dom and Se- inferior regarding Cognitive Functions.
    This is a lovely conclusion of an elaborate logical analisys. - Sarcasm.

    I saw the Intuition and Sensing conflict very clearly in myself.
    Feeling before Thinking, so Fe- auxiliary and Ti tertiary made sense.
    Oh, so you don't wanna feel stupid by having Te as your lowest function.

    When I started to read about Socionics I started to go with INFp as my type first. Well Ni should stay Ni right and Fe auxiliary should be Fe creative. And for the rest I thought that Beebe Archetypes and Model A kinda align. I could see the point of Se- inferior turning to Se suggestive. Te- polr turning to Te trickster. I assume you also go by this explanation, when you say the functions match.
    Yes.

    If not, then fucking state your point!
    I had no point. You just jumped on my blanket statement and demanded I explain myself.

    So I went with this for a while. I read more about INFp and posts from self types INFps here and things didn't add up.
    Because you're MBTI INFP.

    Te-polr description read very much like Te inferior descriptions.

    Ip temperament was definetely not me. Ij all the way.
    Ip is a lot more like MBTI INFJ, than Ij for sure.
    INFJ is more of a percieving type-like in demeanor because it starts with a percieving function - Ni.

    When i started to read stuff about INFjs, about their weaknesses and how people who know INFj describe them I just thought well yeah that sounds more like me.
    Because MBTI doesn't do justice to INFPs in terms of positive descriptions. That doesn't mean you're not one.

    So I stand by my point. MBTI INFJ doesn't mean youre instant INFp here.
    Don't fucking mix'n'match two different systems. There are differencies. They don't overlap.
    Nope.

    If you're MBTI INFJ so Ni Fe and you want to keep that for socionics, well then INFp type for you.
    It's not about what I want, it's about what makes sense.

    But if you're kinda go by dichotomies and descriptions and dig deeper you kinda see that INFj in socionics and MBTI INFJ just have sooo much in common.
    Of course they do. They are quasi-identicals.

    If you want to know what kind of overlap I see, send me a private message. Like i said i don't want to have this shit stretched out to all eternity.
    Yes you do. You're Te yapping, based on Fi hissy fit, without any Ti logical sequence whatsoever. You're an INFP.

    I believe that MBTI INFJ and Socionics INFj describe the same person (going only by descriptions). But the systems assign different functions to this personality.
    No they don't.

    Well i would also wish the functions would stay the same. Ni should stay Ni. Because going with Intertype relations they sometimes make more sense, when i just go by functions. But well then there is other shit in Infp descriptions that doesn't add up like I said.
    Everything adds up.

    And please, for the love of god, if you make the next statement about how i'm this and that, pls back it up with something like functions or dichotomy talk and not some shit, like my fucking punctuation or some ominous 'hints' (whatever that should mean). That's just more constructive. Thank you!
    I backed it up. Go and read the function descriptions for MBTI. That's the most constructive thing I can offer you as advice.

    Here's a message from an SLE:

    And sorry I hurt your feelings.


    Michael here put a lot of work into these you might like them.

    Last edited by lapa83; 12-18-2014 at 02:20 PM.

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    Why are you implying you have hurt my feelings? You haven't. Don't start to patronize.
    I watched that video of DJ already. He talks more MBTI than socionics.

    I will not copy and paste every Ni post that I ever came across and read.
    Also your sentiment about having a weak Thinking function and being dumb just shows you haven't understand anything about the theory. Even in MBTI terms.

    The Thinking Feeling functions according to Jung are there to evaluate information.
    You can't make any assumptions on somebodies intelligence just because of the position of their Thinking function.
    But you're kind of a sucker for making unreasonable assumptions, that you kind of don't back up.

    But I have stated my opinion. You seem to carry a lot of half assed personalitycafe sentiments around.
    You are also not able to back up any of your statements clearly. All you did was answering my posts with the same. NO you are MBTI INFP.
    NO you are mistyping. Your reasoning was just atrocious. LOL @ Punctuation. So now it's a Te ramble. Yeah like i said Fi hissy fit,Te ramble,Te inferior = low intelligence. A lot of half assed MBTI personalitycafe sentiments. Why did you ever leave. I mean you kinda eated up all this shit so well.

    Enjoy your stay. I will cut it off here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    Also your sentiment about having a weak Thinking function and being dumb just shows you haven't understand anything about the theory. Even in MBTI terms.
    And your lack of ability to see I actually wrote that you don't want to claim that about yourself not to seem stupid presuming you think that same thing, which btw shows you also lack reading comprehension.

    The Thinking Feeling functions according to Jung are there to evaluate information.
    You can't make any assumptions on somebodies intelligence just because of the position of their Thinking function.
    But you're kind of a sucker for making unreasonable assumptions, that you kind of don't back up.
    Again, no reading comprehension, an insult of how I'm a sucker + claim you're not mad despite the pointless wall of text.

    But I have stated my opinion. You seem to carry a lot of half assed personalitycafe sentiments around.
    Yet you're the one who claims her sole sources of self typing are posts (I presume forum ones).

    You are also not able to back up any of your statements clearly.
    Lol.

    All you did was answering my posts with the same. NO you are MBTI INFP.
    That's because you made no point. Unlike you I am a Ti user. And there was nothing to adress in there.

    NO you are mistyping. Your reasoning was just atrocious. LOL @ Punctuation. So now it's a Te ramble. Yeah like i said Fi hissy fit,Te ramble,Te inferior = low intelligence. A lot of half assed MBTI personalitycafe sentiments. Why did you ever leave. I mean you kinda eated up all this shit so well.
    No reading comprehension.
    This is EXACTLY what EJArendee mentions. All the INFP hears is frustration and "YAAYA YAYADAYAAAAYAYY YYAAAA!"
    No point in reasoning with one, or expecting reasoning from one, once they emotionally attach to shit and refuse to let go.

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    There is no hard rule / direct conversion between socionics and MBTI. The switch from J and P, judging and perceiving in MBTI, to j and p in socionics, rational and irrational, can be a good starting rule as it's often true, but by no means is it a set rule and true in 100% of the cases. While both socionics and MBTI stem from Carl Jung's research, it's best to treat them as 2 different systems. It's possible for an ESTP in MBTI to be an ESFp in socionics, or an INTJ in MBTI to be an ESTp in socionics, etc. You should familiarize yourself with this chart:



    And you can read the source study here.
    I'll make sure to go trough this William.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    I read everything. And I mean everything I could find online on the socionics transition of INFJ to IEI/INFp and INFP to EII/INFj. It's a perfect fit on both fronts.
    I agree. When I first stumbled onto socionics I looked into INFj because I, wrongly, assumed that it would be the same as INFJ but it isn't. Ni is base function for INFJ and INFp and both fit me. My sister is INFP in MBTI. INFj in socionics accurately describes her strength and use of functions. I type my sister and myself based on the function description over type description.

    It is obvious to me that my EII sister seems to take issue with my Ni and Fe sometimes. I have taken issue with her Fi and Ne as well. This has led to us discounting each other's abilities in these areas. I am aware she can be very capable in the areas of Ni and Fe but she does not find those functions as important. I think my Ni has irritated her in the past because she wants me to give her something a little more concrete to work with. :/ She often tries to throw a self-help book at me to correct my perception. grrrr, Dr Phil...

    I like this site for it's simple descriptions of functions.

    http://personalityjunkie.com/functio...i-ne-te-fe-se/

    http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/

    http://personalityjunkie.com/infp-pe...-type-profile/

    I particularly relate to the explanation of Ni on the site.

    http://personalityjunkie.com/10/intr...-intuition-ni/

    Edit: I have never been a member of personalitycafe. I formed my conclusions based on my own research.

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    I was under the impression that typing by dichotomies in MBTI will yield less errors than typing by functions, but comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges, they are the same but they are still different so there's never going to be a 100% correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    I was under the impression that typing by dichotomies in MBTI will yield less errors than typing by functions, but comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges, they are the same but they are still different so there's never going to be a 100% correlation.
    Hahah I used those too, then narrowed it down to my base function. It all fell into place after that. Good morning Words.

    It's all about that base...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    I was under the impression that typing by dichotomies in MBTI will yield less errors than typing by functions, but comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges, they are the same but they are still different so there's never going to be a 100% correlation.
    If you get your type right, the functions should fit well and the letter dychotomies are there only to look pretty. Do NOT type with these.
    They are like a very empty Map Of Tthe World. They can't tell you jack shit and they can't help you get anywhere specific, but they can point you in a general direction of where you should search and give you memorable big names to describe where you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    If you get your type right, the functions should fit well and the letter dychotomies are there only to look pretty. Do NOT type with these.
    They are like a very empty Map Of Tthe World. They can't tell you jack shit and they can't help you get anywhere specific, but they can point you in a general direction of where you should search and give you memorable big names to describe where you are.
    That's not what a lot of Russian socionists say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    That's not what a lot of Russian socionists say.
    I was talking with the presumption that MBTI and socionics have same rules applied to them, and now that I think about it I see that socionics has a more sophisticated naming system, but is there any legitimate reason they are claiming this other than just point blank stating it? Is there any source?
    All I have is my experience with typing in the MBTI community and people who type trough letters are wrong at least 80% of the time. Now I've only been here a while, so maybe my experience will change. But do you have any evidence for this claim?

    The worst evil in MBTI are these dychotomy based tests.
    I'll link you a video about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    While ILI is more emotional than LII, they aren't as emotion influenced to make an IEI.
    My guess is you are preaching MBTI. ILI with Fe PoLR would prefer to avoid and limit expression of emotions and emotionally driven ideas while LII with Fe suggestive enjoy them and go along with them to varying extent.

    This post was finalized before I read other accusations of you. Not that I read the whole altercation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    I was talking with the presumption that MBTI and socionics have same rules applied to them, and now that I think about it I see that socionics has a more sophisticated naming system, but is there any legitimate reason they are claiming this other than just point blank stating it? Is there any source?
    All I have is my experience with typing in the MBTI community and people who type trough letters are wrong at least 80% of the time. Now I've only been here a while, so maybe my experience will change. But do you have any evidence for this claim?

    The worst evil in MBTI are these dychotomy based tests.
    I'll link you a video about it.
    Well you are comparing MBTI dichotomies with Socionic dichotomies which are partially correlated.

    You are saying that the functions are the same in MBTI and socionics.

    But you are saying nothing.

    I think you will have to add me to the list of those you troll.

    Cause you're talking shit and you're not even funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Hahah I used those too, then narrowed it down to my base function. It all fell into place after that. Good morning Words.

    It's all about that base...
    And treble.

    And scrabble.

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    I found that Enneagramm can play a huge part when you start finding your socionic type.

    MBTI INFPs Enneagramm 4 often type as IEI, because they can relate very much to beta quadra.

    MBTI INFPs Enneagramm 9 often type as EII, they relate more to delta.

    With MBTI INFJs it can also go both ways. I think Ennegram 4 especially the sexual subtype will also relate more to beta and their romance style.

    Also if you look at Williams chart you can see this split in both ways for MBTI INFJs and MBTI INFPs regarding their socionics type.

    I also found this disscussionon the Socionics section on Personalitycafe. It'sa thread about this whole issue between MBTI and socionics.

    Does your MBTI type always have to match it's socionics counterpart?


    Go to the end of the thread and read some posts of the user nichya. She explains very well why she is MBTI INFP Fi Ne but also INFp in socionics.

    She explains in a very detailed manner how she relates so much more to beta quadra and their romance style.

    Some people just fall in this gap between this two systems, which MBTI and socionics just haven't covered yet.

    If you read that stuff you can see that people who make that switch, can have a problem when they try to relate to the description and the disscussions about their type.

    Also regarding functions. Because people claim that Ni is staying Ni, or something like that.

    The type descriptions who break it down to the functions are written in a very ambigous manner.INFJ and INFP could both see themselves in the NiFe description.

    It's all not that clear cut. For me it's just that MBTI INFJ are described as perfectionists. When you read some posts in the INFJ section on personalitycafe they write about how they are practical, wish to establish some deep trust before entering a relationship, are more slow moving regarding romance, have problems with their perfectionism etc.

    Sounds all very INFj to me.
    Last edited by veult; 12-20-2014 at 07:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    I was talking with the presumption that MBTI and socionics have same rules applied to them, and now that I think about it I see that socionics has a more sophisticated naming system, but is there any legitimate reason they are claiming this other than just point blank stating it? Is there any source?
    All I have is my experience with typing in the MBTI community and people who type trough letters are wrong at least 80% of the time. Now I've only been here a while, so maybe my experience will change. But do you have any evidence for this claim?

    The worst evil in MBTI are these dychotomy based tests.
    I'll link you a video about it.
    Let's just drop MBTI and burry it in dark woods.
    There are plenty of sources, they are in Russian. I am lucky to be able to read it.
    I can even link you the statement of the mighty Reinin where he doubts his own theories.
    Functions in socionics are not exactly the same as in MBTI.
    You cannot approach socionics in the same manner, that's all I have to say here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Well you are comparing MBTI dichotomies with Socionic dichotomies which are partially correlated.
    They aren't "partially correlated". They try to describe same things with different amount of precision and different angle of observation.
    Not to mention the gray Area of MBTI's lack of consensus due to the watering down done to it.

    You are saying that the functions are the same in MBTI and socionics.
    So far, it seems so to me. I'm not saying it for sure. Not yet at least.

    But you are saying nothing.
    Is this you trying to sound dramatic? Because you're also saying nothing.

    I think you will have to add me to the list of those you troll.
    Cause you're talking shit and you're not even funny.
    I never made a finalized statement claiming this to be 100% true. Even though I read up on socionics a lot I have more to learn.
    I mentioned MBTI typing explicitly pointing out it REMINDS me of socionics, without claiming it's the same thing.

    Get of your high horse you indignant asshole.
    I'm trying to be humble here, how about you educate me instead?

    And the MBTI INFP over there who claims she's MBTI INFJ, is still an INFP. I've only met people like her going from MBTI INFJ to EII, and they're all INFPs across the board, only reaffirming my generalization about system transition.
    I've yet to study socionics to it's full extent in order to be able to claim anything about the real difference in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    My guess is you are preaching MBTI. ILI with Fe PoLR would prefer to avoid and limit expression of emotions and emotionally driven ideas while LII with Fe suggestive enjoy them and go along with them to varying extent.
    You accused me of preaching MBTI and then said the same thing MBTI practitioners would.
    Also I am not preaching anything, I'm saying it's similar, it reminds me of...

    This post was finalized before I read other accusations of you. Not that I read the whole altercation.
    Accusations of me? Of me how?

    Just mentioning MBTI you asses are making indignant hissy fits. It doesn't matter what I actually said, you're all too above and beyond MBTI to even read what's written.

    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    I found that Enneagramm can play a huge part when you start finding your socionic type.
    Any type can lead to any Enneagram. And Enneagram is the main cause for mistyping. Since MBTI gives wiggle room and allows grabbing onto arbitrary description pieces, Ennegrams go for what they desire.
    So 4s often think they're MBTI INFJ for example. 8s tend to go for NTJ and STP. 3s NTJ etc.

    That doesn't make their type at all. Enneagram talks about inner motivation, not cognition. Even though general correlation is possible, but to a small degree and not enough to be mixed with MBTI.

    Some people just fall in this gap between this two systems, which MBTI and socionics just haven't covered yet.
    Descriptions generalise, functions are precise. You can, not fit a generalization, but you can't fail to fit your functions. So if you have this bit here that sounds like you but a bucket of other stuff over there, sorry, but you're not a special little flower without type. Your type is over there as far as MBTI is concerned.

    The type descriptions who break it down to the functions are written in a very ambigous manner.INFJ and INFP could both see themselves in the NiFe description.
    That's why no one among MBTI practitioners with a brain pays much attention to them. People know they're either completely vague, or utter nonsense. MBTI either hinges on function based research, or it has nothing.
    I don't know yet what the socionics attitude is, but it seems to me it's different from MBTI with descriptions being more valued.

    It's all not that clear cut. For me it's just that MBTI INFJ are described as perfectionists. When you read some posts in the INFJ section on personalitycafe they write about how they are practical, wish to establish some deep trust before entering a relationship, are more slow moving regarding romance, have problems with their perfectionism etc.

    Sounds all very INFj to me.
    Personality Cafe INFJ forum is crawling with INFP 4s epecially. INFPs in general.
    While INFJs are by enlarge in the INTP and INTJ sections. Especially the males.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    Let's just drop MBTI and burry it in dark woods.
    Why?

    There are plenty of sources, they are in Russian. I am lucky to be able to read it.
    Ok, good for you. Translate them, will ya?

    I can even link you the statement of the mighty Reinin where he doubts his own theories.
    Is it in Russian?
    And why tell me you can? Why don't you?

    Are you name dropping here?

    Functions in socionics are not exactly the same as in MBTI.
    You cannot approach socionics in the same manner, that's all I have to say here.
    That's a big problem for me. It means you'll just gloat while refusing to help me learn.
    Don't be a selfish ass.
    Last edited by lapa83; 12-20-2014 at 04:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    Why?
    I like the smell of rotten bones.


    Ok, good for you. Translate them, will ya?
    Start reading articles available here.
    If not, google translate works for pretty a lot here.


    Is it in Russian?
    And why tell me you can? Why don't you?
    Ask me.

    Are you name dropping here?
    No, but you did not get the point.


    That's a big problem for me. It means you'll just gloat while refusing to help me learn.
    Don't be a selfish ass.
    I am being a mean smartass with you.
    I am also a selfish sarcastic asshole fond of making fun of people since am INTJ in MBTI
    Enjoy your stay here, you seem quite entertaining

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    No, but you did not get the point.

    I am being a mean smartass with you.
    Oh come on dude, it takes time to quote and reply. Don't trick me like that.

    Enjoy your stay here, you seem quite entertaining
    Thanks, you too. xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    Oh come on dude, it takes time to quote and reply. Don't trick me like that.

    Thanks, you too. xD
    There is one thing I do agree with you about though, so kudos

    This:
    Personality Cafe INFJ forum is crawling with INFP 4s epecially. INFPs in general.
    While INFJs are by enlarge in the INTP and INTJ sections. Especially the males.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    They aren't "partially correlated". They try to describe same things with different amount of precision and different angle of observation.
    Not to mention the gray Area of MBTI's lack of consensus due to the watering down done to it.


    So far, it seems so to me. I'm not saying it for sure. Not yet at least.


    Is this you trying to sound dramatic? Because you're also saying nothing.


    I never made a finalized statement claiming this to be 100% true. Even though I read up on socionics a lot I have more to learn.
    I mentioned MBTI typing explicitly pointing out it REMINDS me of socionics, without claiming it's the same thing.

    Get of your high horse you indignant asshole.
    I'm trying to be humble here, how about you educate me instead?

    And the MBTI INFP over there who claims she's MBTI INFJ, is still an INFP. I've only met people like her going from MBTI INFJ to EII, and they're all INFPs across the board, only reaffirming my generalization about system transition.
    I've yet to study socionics to it's full extent in order to be able to claim anything about the real difference in and of itself.


    You accused me of preaching MBTI and then said the same thing MBTI practitioners would.
    Also I am not preaching anything, I'm saying it's similar, it reminds me of...


    Accusations of me? Of me how?

    Just mentioning MBTI you asses are making indignant hissy fits. It doesn't matter what I actually said, you're all too above and beyond MBTI to even read what's written.


    Any type can lead to any Enneagram. And Enneagram is the main cause for mistyping. Since MBTI gives wiggle room and allows grabbing onto arbitrary description pieces, Ennegrams go for what they desire.
    So 4s often think they're MBTI INFJ for example. 8s tend to go for NTJ and STP. 3s NTJ etc.

    That doesn't make their type at all. Enneagram talks about inner motivation, not cognition. Even though general correlation is possible, but to a small degree and not enough to be mixed with MBTI.


    Descriptions generalise, functions are precise. You can, not fit a generalization, but you can't fail to fit your functions. So if you have this bit here that sounds like you but a bucket of other stuff over there, sorry, but you're not a special little flower without type. Your type is over there as far as MBTI is concerned.


    That's why no one among MBTI practitioners with a brain pays much attention to them. People know they're either completely vague, or utter nonsense. MBTI either hinges on function based research, or it has nothing.
    I don't know yet what the socionics attitude is, but it seems to me it's different from MBTI with descriptions being more valued.


    Personality Cafe INFJ forum is crawling with INFP 4s epecially. INFPs in general.
    While INFJs are by enlarge in the INTP and INTJ sections. Especially the males.


    Why?


    Ok, good for you. Translate them, will ya?


    Is it in Russian?
    And why tell me you can? Why don't you?

    Are you name dropping here?

    That's a big problem for me. It means you'll just gloat while refusing to help me learn.
    Don't be a selfish ass.
    The most boring post in the world.

    I've been here for a long time on and off for better or worse and being the smartass is not the way to get me to take the time to answer your questions or blanket statements.

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    When I joined this forum I came out swinging... I learned more about socionics from my forum battles, and interaction with various members one on one, than I would have reading every translation of every article on socionics ever written. I tend to skim everything socionics and MBTI but even skimming it I think I have a pretty good grasp on these concepts, including enneagram, as they apply to me. It gets a bit harder when it comes to figuring out the base functions of other people but I am an observer as well so I am constantly making mental notes that I file away until I need them.

    I just want to welcome @lapa83 again and thank her for adding some spice to this forum. I was not finding much to get excited about here lately. Now I got lapa and Hitta's newest thread. Yay me!

    *rides off on her Ni horse"


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I learned more about socionics from my forum battles, and interaction with various members one on one, than I would have reading every translation of every article on socionics ever written.
    I tend to hoard information, so I spend a lot of time reading, learning, watching, listening.
    Interactions are important part of it but not sufficient to be able to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    When I joined this forum I came out swinging... I learned more about socionics from my forum battles, and interaction with various members one on one, than I would have reading every translation of every article on socionics ever written. I tend to skim everything socionics and MBTI but even skimming it I think I have a pretty good grasp on these concepts, including enneagram, as they apply to me. It gets a bit harder when it comes to figuring out the base functions of other people but I am an observer as well so I am constantly making mental notes that I file away until I need them.
    I agree. Nothing makes you learn better than trying to teach (shove down someone's throat) what you (think you) know.

    I just want to welcome @lapa83 again and thank her for adding some spice to this forum. I was not finding much to get excited about here lately. Now I got lapa and Hitta's newest thread. Yay me!

    *rides off on her Ni horse"
    What are Betas for if not spice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    ...being the smartass is not the way to get me to take the time to answer your questions or blanket statements.
    I didn't ask you anything.
    And a blanket statement is not something you have to answer dumbass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    I've been here for a long time on and off for better or worse and being the smartass is not the way to get me to take the time to answer your questions or blanket statements.
    Time for a musical interlude...


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    When I joined this forum I came out swinging... I learned more about socionics from my forum battles, and interaction with various members one on one, than I would have reading every translation of every article on socionics ever written. I tend to skim everything socionics and MBTI but even skimming it I think I have a pretty good grasp on these concepts, including enneagram, as they apply to me. It gets a bit harder when it comes to figuring out the base functions of other people but I am an observer as well so I am constantly making mental notes that I file away until I need them.

    I just want to welcome @lapa83 again and thank her for adding some spice to this forum. I was not finding much to get excited about here lately. Now I got lapa and Hitta's newest thread. Yay me!

    *rides off on her Ni horse"

    There's no spice: no original humour, uninteresting disrespect and teenage angst went out fashion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    I agree. Nothing makes you learn better than trying to teach (shove down someone's throat) what you (think you) know.



    What are Betas for if not spice?


    I didn't ask you anything.
    And a blanket statement is not something you have to answer dumbass.
    Then ask me nothing and do not quote me with your statements and my world will have refinement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    And a blanket statement is not something you have to answer dumbass.
    He has been one of my greatest sources in understanding socionics on this forum. I won't mention the others right now. I clashed with an SLE when I first joined too...Good times.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by lapa83 View Post
    Any type can lead to any Enneagram. And Enneagram is the main cause for mistyping. Since MBTI gives wiggle room and allows grabbing onto arbitrary description pieces, Ennegrams go for what they desire.
    So 4s often think they're MBTI INFJ for example. 8s tend to go for NTJ and STP. 3s NTJ etc.

    That doesn't make their type at all. Enneagram talks about inner motivation, not cognition. Even though general correlation is possible, but to a small degree and not enough to be mixed with MBTI.


    Descriptions generalise, functions are precise. You can, not fit a generalization, but you can't fail to fit your functions. So if you have this bit here that sounds like you but a bucket of other stuff over there, sorry, but you're not a special little flower without type. Your type is over there as far as MBTI is concerned.


    That's why no one among MBTI practitioners with a brain pays much attention to them. People know they're either completely vague, or utter nonsense. MBTI either hinges on function based research, or it has nothing.
    I don't know yet what the socionics attitude is, but it seems to me it's different from MBTI with descriptions being more valued.


    Personality Cafe INFJ forum is crawling with INFP 4s epecially. INFPs in general.
    While INFJs are by enlarge in the INTP and INTJ sections. Especially the males.
    At this point i think that we will never see this eye to eye.
    I understand your POV. If you break everything down and just go by functions, there should be no such thing as INFJ -> INFj

    It is clear that if you claim to be a certain MBTI type your cognitive functions should align in both systems.
    But some people complain that with the j/p switch they don't relate to the descriptions of their type anymore.
    So descriptions can be wrong. But then they also don't relate to the way how socionics explains their functions.
    That's what i meant with gap. Not a lack of type, more that the transition between both system is just not done with J/P switch for some people.
    There is something amiss. But you will gloat over everything claiming that the people who don't do the switch are mistyped

    You will claim me to be a MBTI INFP. EII lead with Fi INFP lead with Fi.
    I don't relate to Fi cognitive function descriptions in MBTI. But well you will ignore this because it doesn't fit with your explanations.

    Idk in the end it kinda reads like the same old personalitycafe sentiments about how everybody and everything mistypes as INFJs.
    INFP 4 think that they are INFJ. But INFJ are so much more Thinkers they are more like INTJ or INTPs blah blah blah.
    Everbody and Jesus wants to be INFJ. I think at this point i even don't want to state me as MBTI INFJ anymore because this whole superiority talk and all the sentiments kinda make me barf.

    I think maybe if you read some sources that describe both types or posts you may see someday that there is really something off, like many other people before you.
    But maybe not.

    I will leave it at that.
    Last edited by veult; 12-20-2014 at 05:47 PM.

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    There isn't always a good correspondence between descriptions and functions largely because both (but more of the former) are interpreted differently. In MBTI terms, INTPs likely would correlate to INTj in socionics, based on much of their descriptions. INTps are moodier and more prone to bouts of 'laziness' and inactivity than INTjs, which goes against the "J-like" mantra in the MBTI sphere.

    Likewise, INFPs are seen as flakier than INFJs in MBTI; however, in socionics, INFjs are noted to be more active. PoLRs make conversions even trickier. If one assumes the inferior function of MBTI to correlate to PoLRs, you again, as before, see a big deviation. INTJs in MBTI are noted for their lack of Se--a function which is defined differently in socionics; likewise, INTPs are noted for their lack of Fe.

    So there are a few factors making conversion complicated:
    -Different function definitions (especially w/ Se/Si)
    -PoLR vs. Inferior Functions in MBTI
    -J/j P/p, both pairs that identify qualities and impart their own explanations of manifestations (attributes) of each differently.

    Another issue is the homogeneity of functions in MBTI vs their dynamism in socionics. Te is Te in MBTI, despite whatever type that has Te. So an INTJ has the same Te as an ESTJ or ENTJ, leading most INTJs to believe that it's their introversion that's responsible for the gap in the potency of their Te function. In socionics, this is different. Each type uses Te towards different ends, effectively creating "versions" of the employed functions.

    I'd say conversion is not easy, overall. It is not uncommon for people to say that they had to unlearn one to learn the other. It is also not uncommon to see people who denounce MBTI conversions of their type, often stating that they do not relate to their MBTI "equivalent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    There's no spice: no original humour, uninteresting disrespect and teenage angst went out fashion.
    Oooh, someone's butthurt...
    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Then ask me nothing and do not quote me with your statements and my world will have refinement.
    Did you just forbid me from quoting you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Then ask me nothing and do not quote me with your statements and my world will have refinement.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Then ask me nothing and do not quote me with your statements and my world will have refinement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Then ask me nothing and do not quote me with your statements and my world will have refinement.




    Quote Originally Posted by veult View Post
    If you break everything down and just go by functions, there should be no such thing as INFJ -> INFj
    Alright then.

    But then they also don't relate to the way how socionics explains their functions.
    That's what i meant with gap.
    Alright, please be SPECIFIC. Post what you don't relate to and explain the gap between MBTI and Socionics description you don't relate to. Explain why you're Fe user in MBTI, but an Fi in socionics.

    Please.
    The fact that you are not doing that is the whole reason we're still writing.

    There is something amiss. But you will gloat over everything claiming that the people who don't do the switch are mistyped
    Because all of those I saw certainly looked like they are exhibiting all INFP characteristics. =/

    You will claim me to be a MBTI INFP. EII lead with Fi INFP lead with Fi.
    I don't relate to Fi cognitive function descriptions in MBTI.
    So MBTI saying you have high valuing personal ethic-based reasoning, that you're calm on the outside but passionate inside, that you're easily hurt doesn't suit you?
    But Socionics saying you preffer intimate relationships not caring for wide circles of friends suits you?

    Even though the same generalization is related to Fi users in MBTI, only not in function description, but in type description?

    But well you will ignore this because it doesn't fit with your explanations.
    No I won't. But you have yet to state a SPECIFIC thing. Explain EXACTLY what makes you "not fit".

    I think maybe if you read some sources that describe both types or posts you may see someday that there is really something off, like many other people before you.
    But maybe not.
    I know there's a difference and it seems to be this:

    Socionics - Describes function Fi in terms of purely emotional interpersonal relationship preference effect it has on the user.

    MBTI - Describes the function Fi in terms of intellectual process it represents in creating a person's value system + how it manifests in their behavior (as a generalisation).

    MBTI is trying to assign a thinking process first and THEN show manifestation of it, Socionics is explaining the preference it causes, manifestation (behavior) and skill developed out of it (the thinking process).

    Difference in thinking process:
    MBTI - Internalized value system of idealism in emotion based individuality.
    Socionics - Cognitive ability to tend to personal relationships in a superior manner.

    Difference in manifestation:
    MBTI - Doesn't show much emotion, internally more sensitive and passionate. This causes external understanding of others and thus attentiveness to outside ethics. Judgmental, self-centered assholes.
    Socionics - Doesn't show much emotion, internally more sensitive and passionate. This causes external projection of others and thus attentiveness to outside emotions. Judgmental assholes.

    Prefference:
    MBTI - Smaller groups of intimate friends. Tend to be harder to open up.
    Socionics - Intimate relationships and interaction they like to settle into.

    Am I missing something here?

    To me, based on what I'm seeing, MBTI and Socionics just walk the same path, in opposite directions, while disagreeing on what the traffic signs mean.

    Whatever that Fi is TRULLY, that they are trying to describe from different observation points, they are just seeing and noting different parts of it, while claiming they see the rule behind it, and everything else is generalization.

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