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Thread: WOOFIAN ENNEAGRAM

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Default WOOFIAN ENNEAGRAM

    I finally made a graph with enneagram triads:



    First triad is head/heart/gut. Sine waves peak at the crowns of each triad and bottom out at the point diametrically opposed to the crown of each triad.

    Second triad is double the frequency of the first triad. Every point on the enneagram wheel is the same and the opposite of every point diametrically opposed to it; this is how they are the same, the crowns of the triads are how they are opposite.

    Third triad is triple the frequency of the first triad. More on the way soon, gonna sleep first

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    My eyes are bleeding, translate pls

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    This isnt useful

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    Instead of only changing colors, could you aswell change the forms of the curves, or add dot or only dots. Different type of dots would help, for clarity.

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    chairpersonality Holon's Avatar
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    I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I await its conclusions eagerly.

    Here's a graph.


    scribbles in the dark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    My eyes are bleeding, translate pls
    Most head: 6
    Most heart: 3
    Most gut: 9
    Most withdrawal: 4, 5, 9
    Most duty: 1, 2, 6
    Most assertion: 3, 7, 8
    Most rejection: 2, 5, 8
    Most attachment: 3, 6, 9
    Most frustration: 1, 4, 7

    Weird, 9 is most gut, 7 is most frustration, 6 is most head instead of 5

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    Idiot Iris's Avatar
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    Whaaaat?

    **Iris faints**
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regicides View Post
    Weird, 9 is most gut ... 6 is most head instead of 5
    I think the idea is that both of 9s wings are still within the gut center, so they have no easy respite from their center's neurosis. Same applies to 6s in the head center. Don't think I really subscribe to that belief myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regicides View Post
    7 is most frustration
    Technically 1, 4, 7 are all frustration types, although I think calling it "frustration" is a grand misnomer for what psychological phenomenon is going on.

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    I intuitively understand this @woofwoofl, good job. I like how the focal point of the 7 is spread out and the 6, 9 and 3 everything gels together, that makes a lot of sense to me! I don't know why other people are having trouble understanding it.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Default enneagram megapost

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    My eyes are bleeding, translate pls
    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Whaaaat?

    **Iris faints**
    *revitalizes Iris*

    All positions on the enneagram wheel are now accounted for!

    Gut/heart/head follows a sine wave that peaks at the crown of the triad and bottoms out at the point opposite.

    . . .gut .heart .head
    max . 9 . . 3 . . 6
    min .4/5 . 7/8 . 1/2


    Hornevian triads are now pinched together into dyads, and in here, shortened to fit the format, relieving some connotations along the way.

    . . .detach . . duties . . assert
    max .9, 4/5 . . 1/2, 6 . . 3, 7/8
    min 2w3, 7w6 . 4w3, 8w9 . 1w9, 5w6


    Object relation triads are still triads, and as the position on the wheel goes clockwise, the containment of the rejection triad moves through the interconnection of the attachment triad and then to the deliberate reach of the frustration triad, one full cycle for every rising and falling of a gut/head/heart triad; like a seed (rejection), planted (rejection -> attachment), grows into a tree with branches (attachment -> frustration), and then when the weight of the fruits is too much to bear, drops the fruits (frustration -> rejection), full of seeds themselves. Names are shortened, fitting the format, relieving connotations, etc.; last time, "detach" was used for withdrawn, "duties" was used for compliant; this time, "inner" is used for rejection, "inter" is used for attachment, and "ideal" is used for frustration.

    . . . . inter . . . . . ideal . . . . . inner
    max . .9, 3, 6 . . . . 1, 4, 7 . . . . 2, 5, 8
    min 1/2, 4/5, 7/8 . 2/3, 5/6, 8/9 . 9/1, 3/4, 6/7


    As for harmonics, @Holon may have spoilered my future approach

    As the term "harmonic" was used, and his sine graph showed sharp, stabby peaks, I'm even more compelled to multiply together the pre-existing waves and see if anything comes out beautiful, balanced, and sensible, but until then, I've got this triad for tritypes nonetheless.

    Below is every main position on the enneagram wheel, shaded according to power:

    4/5 midrange
    gut . 0.000 . detach 1.000 . inter 0.000
    heart 0.750 . duties 0.250 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.750 . assert 0.250 . inner 0.750


    5w4
    gut . 0.008 . detach 0.970 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.671 . duties 0.413 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.821 . assert 0.117 . inner 0.933


    5 midrange
    gut . 0.030 . detach 0.883 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.587 . duties 0.587 . ideal 0.250
    head .0.883 . assert 0.030 . inner 1.000


    5w6
    gut . 0.067 . detach 0.750 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.500
    . duties 0.750 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.933 . assert 0.000 . inner 0.933


    5/6 midrange
    gut . 0.117 . detach 0.587 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.413 . duties 0.883 . ideal 0.000
    head .0.970 . assert 0.030 .
    inner 0.750


    6w5
    gut . 0.179 . detach 0.413 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.329 . duties 0.970 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.992 . assert 0.117 . inner 0.500


    6 midrange
    gut . 0.250 . detach 0.250 . inter 1.000
    heart 0.250 . duties 1.000 . ideal 0.250
    head .1.000 . assert 0.250 . inner 0.250


    6w7
    gut . 0.329 . detach 0.117 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.179 . duties 0.970 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.992 . assert 0.413 . inner 0.067


    6/7 midrange
    gut . 0.413 . detach 0.030 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.117 . duties 0.883 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.970 . assert 0.587 . inner 0.000


    7w6
    gut . 0.500 . detach 0.000 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.067 . duties 0.750 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.933
    . assert 0.750 . inner 0.067


    7 midrange
    gut . 0.587 . detach 0.030 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.030 . duties 0.587 . ideal 1.000
    head .0.883 . assert 0.883 . inner 0.250


    7w8
    gut . 0.671 . detach 0.117 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.008 . duties 0.413 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.821 . assert 0.970 . inner 0.500


    7/8 midrange
    gut . 0.750 . detach 0.250 . inter 0.000
    heart 0.000 . duties 0.250 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.750
    . assert 1.000 .
    inner 0.750


    8w7
    gut . 0.821 . detach 0.413 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.008 . duties 0.117 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.671 . assert 0.970 . inner 0.933


    8 midrange
    gut . 0.883 . detach 0.587 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.030 . duties 0.030 . ideal 0.250
    head .0.587 . assert 0.883 . inner 1.000


    8w9
    gut . 0.933 . detach 0.750 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.067 . duties 0.000 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.500 . assert 0.750 . inner 0.933


    8/9 midrange
    gut . 0.970 . detach 0.883 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.117 . duties 0.030 . ideal 0.000
    head .0.413 . assert 0.587 . inner 0.750


    9w8
    gut . 0.992 . detach 0.970 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.179 . duties 0.117 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.329 . assert 0.413 . inner 0.500


    9 midrange
    gut . 1.000 . detach 1.000 . inter 1.000
    heart 0.250 . duties 0.250 . ideal 0.250
    head .0.250 . assert 0.250 . inner 0.250


    9w1
    gut . 0.992 . detach 0.970 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.329 . duties 0.413 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.179 . assert 0.117 . inner 0.067


    9/1 midrange
    gut . 0.970 . detach 0.883 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.413 . duties 0.587 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.117 . assert 0.030 . inner 0.000


    1w9
    gut . 0.933 . detach 0.750 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.500
    . duties 0.750 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.067 . assert 0.000 . inner 0.067


    1 midrange
    gut . 0.883 . detach 0.587 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.587 . duties 0.883 . ideal 1.000
    head .0.030 . assert 0.030 . inner 0.250


    1w2
    gut . 0.821 . detach 0.413 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.671 . duties 0.970 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.008 . assert 0.117 . inner 0.500


    1/2 midrange
    gut . 0.750 . detach 0.250 . inter 0.000
    heart 0.750 . duties 1.000 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.000 . assert 0.250 . inner 0.750


    2w1
    gut . 0.671 . detach 0.117 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.821 . duties 0.970 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.008 . assert 0.413 . inner 0.933


    2 midrange
    gut . 0.587 . detach 0.030 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.883 . duties 0.883 . ideal 0.250
    head .0.030 . assert 0.587 . inner 1.000


    2w3
    gut . 0.500 . detach 0.000 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.933 . duties 0.750 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.067
    . assert 0.750 . inner 0.933


    2/3 midrange
    gut . 0.413 . detach 0.030 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.970 . duties 0.587 . ideal 0.000
    head .0.117 . assert 0.883 .
    inner 0.750


    3w2
    gut . 0.329 . detach 0.117 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.992 . duties 0.413 . ideal 0.067
    head .0.179 . assert 0.970 . inner 0.500


    3 midrange
    gut . 0.250 . detach 0.250 . inter 1.000
    heart 1.000
    . duties 0.250 . ideal 0.250
    head .0.250
    . assert 1.000 . inner 0.250


    3w4
    gut . 0.179 . detach 0.413 . inter 0.933
    heart 0.992 . duties 0.117 . ideal 0.500
    head .0.329 . assert 0.970 . inner 0.067


    3/4 midrange
    gut . 0.117 . detach 0.587 . inter 0.750
    heart 0.970 . duties 0.030 . ideal 0.750
    head .0.413 . assert 0.883 . inner 0.000


    4w3
    gut . 0.067 . detach 0.750 . inter 0.500
    heart 0.933 . duties 0.000 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.500 . assert 0.750 . inner 0.067


    4 midrange
    gut . 0.030 . detach 0.883 . inter 0.250
    heart 0.883 . duties 0.030 . ideal 1.000
    head .0.587 . assert 0.587 . inner 0.250


    4w5
    gut . 0.008 . detach 0.970 . inter 0.067
    heart 0.821 . duties 0.117 . ideal 0.933
    head .0.671 . assert 0.413 . inner 0.500
    Last edited by woofwoofl; 10-02-2014 at 01:52 AM. Reason: used "counterclockwise" instead of "clockwise" in original megapost in object relations paragraph

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    Woof, I don't think this is a very sensible approach to the enneagram.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    It's actually kinda interesting to graphically see the effects of wings on a core type like that. Not bad.

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    Where is the bewildered button to click on?

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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    So what's my e-type?

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    So what's my e-type?
    whichever series of decimals you resonate with the best

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    whichever series of decimals you resonate with the best

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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Woof, I don't think this is a very sensible approach to the enneagram.
    @woofwoofl @Spider I had someone at my desk that I had to deal with, but I wanted to explain why I consider the circular nature of the enneagram to not be of interest.

    Bless Naranjo's cotton socks but he liked the idea of a trichotomous personality typing. Then he defined a bundle of motivational type/trait relationships that made sense to him.

    This is important because of the relationship between the three types of each triangle. For some types, you grow to the level of integration by moving through the center of the enneagram to the clockwise orientation of your triangle, and then when the type disintegrates/are under stress they fall down the anticlockwise direction of the triangle linearly to that position. A good example of this is type 8, it grows to 2 and disintegrates to 5.

    Talking about the perceived 'circularity' of 8 would appear to be a very rational and correct think to do; there is no doubt about it.

    One side is clockwise and the other counterclockwise; you can imagine you travel around a loop of types and behaviours.

    But I struggle when I start to find exceptions to this logic. 5 grows to 8 and stresses to 7.

    Well hang on, we aren't following a circle here relative to 8; both positions are clockwise from the 5 and they are actually next door. So I've kind of deduced that the enneagram isn't circular; the circle is merely a cool artifact of post processing of putting a bunch of triangles together.

    Regarding my aversion to tritypes: I've hit on the tri-type conundrum; do tritypes work if the system isn't circular and we travel 'directly' to growth/stress points rather than around? Probably not; a 5 should have 8/7 as their tritype, but 7 is in the same triad as 5. They don't go around the houses and operate in a '3' mode'. So either the enneagram is ill defined or tritypes are a different system from the enneagram because you aren't travelling to the other foci.

    Also if its a type based system, can you straddle an 'instinct' barrier if it isn't defined as a circle? Probably no more than I can be both SLI and ILI at the same time. These types have a defined exclusive nature. I'm humouring myself if I think I'm both; the model doesn't allow me to respect that choice no matter how much I play with it.

    I don't know the answer to thse questions; they are too big for me. There is no doubt it is interesting but I don't think the enneagram lends well to this kind of linear rationality you have applied with the best of intentions.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    So I've kind of deduced that the enneagram isn't circular; the circle is merely a cool artifact of post processing of putting a bunch of triangles together.
    If memory serves, the enneagram shape itself is a product of linking together in sequence the decimal representation of 1/7. 142857 ... 1 disintegrates to 4 disintegrates to 2 disintegrates to ... WHOA DUDE

    Integration/disintegration is basically a load of crap and isn't at all helpful to understanding the system. Ignore the system as working in some weird circle pattern and just focus on the triads, it'll be much more clear in the long run.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Bless Naranjo's cotton socks but he liked the idea of a trichotomous personality typing. Then he defined a bundle of motivational type/trait relationships that made sense to him.
    Naranjo wasn't the creator of the enneagram; the structure came first, his work came later, and this gets to the heart of what I was talking about with @zap in this convo.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    This is important because of the relationship between the three types of each triangle. For some types, you grow to the level of integration by moving through the center of the enneagram to the clockwise orientation of your triangle, and then when the type disintegrates/are under stress they fall down the anticlockwise direction of the triangle linearly to that position. A good example of this is type 8, it grows to 2 and disintegrates to 5.

    Talking about the perceived 'circularity' of 8 would appear to be a very rational and correct think to do; there is no doubt about it.

    One side is clockwise and the other counterclockwise; you can imagine you travel around a loop of types and behaviours.
    I mapped that group out already from the very first post as the "inner" part of inner/ideal/inter, and somehow got this from you:

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    This isnt useful
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Woof, I don't think this is a very sensible approach to the enneagram.
    My first post has even another triad pinched together as a dyad, which follows symmetry-based rules we've both outlined with the inner/ideal/intra triad, the rules you pointed directly to right here:

    InvisibleJim Yesterday 02:23 PM What I've found is that whenever someone flaps between two types e.g. 5w6 with 6w5 you actually look at their motivations and find they sit in the opposite end of the spectrum, in that case 1, in Spiders case, 3 could be as likely as 7w8, 8w7 split

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    But I struggle when I start to find exceptions to this logic. 5 grows to 8 and stresses to 7.

    Well hang on, we aren't following a circle here relative to 8; both positions are clockwise from the 5 and they are actually next door. So I've kind of deduced that the enneagram isn't circular; the circle is merely a cool artifact of post processing of putting a bunch of triangles together.
    Getting rid of the circle means getting rid of the entire enneagram.

    Getting rid of integration/disintegration means being closer to my approach here than anything else on the big sites.

    As @Galen brought up, the integration/disintegration pattern can be found by the repeating decimal points for 1/7, 0.142857, which repeats over and over; moving further towards the infinitesimal is the pattern of the disintegration ring for inner/ideal, moving further up is the pattern of the integration ring. Three ideal/frustration positions, three inner/rejection positions, over and over, with a gut triad position in the middle of all of them. Another circle with rhythms of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Regarding my aversion to tritypes: I've hit on the tri-type conundrum; do tritypes work if the system isn't circular and we travel 'directly' to growth/stress points rather than around? Probably not; a 5 should have 8/7 as their tritype, but 7 is in the same triad as 5. They don't go around the houses and operate in a '3' mode'.
    Integrating/disintegrating an entire tritype? I did write-ups on that, don't think I posted them though; 369 stays 369, 251 and 478 integrate/disintegrate into each other, there are some chains of integration/disintegration that cohere as tritypes for a lot longer than I expected, and some that go into double-gut/heart/head territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    So either the enneagram is ill defined or tritypes are a different system from the enneagram because you aren't travelling to the other foci.
    What? 4 and 5 integrate/disintegrate in the heart and head triad respectively. Using wings/subwings/decimals in between the two would have the non-gut part of the withdrawn dyad fanning out to the sides of the enneagram, while still being a distance away from the gut triad. Makes sense, doesn't involve traveling to all foci, why would tritypes need that?

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Also if its a type based system, can you straddle an 'instinct' barrier if it isn't defined as a circle?
    Using Naranjo's add-ons to mash together an explicitly non-enneagram system is far worse than anything I could have ever dreamed of.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Probably no more than I can be both SLI and ILI at the same time.
    Notate as IxTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    These types have a defined exclusive nature.
    Type descriptions ultimately come from Jung's work, and decades passed before there were any type descriptions anywhere. Four wide groupings, and eight still-wide groupings of the same material existed first; sixteen discrete types came later from Augusta, and type descriptions came from all over the place later. If a group can be divided into two, then two groups can be combined into one.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I'm humouring myself if I think I'm both; the model doesn't allow me to respect that choice no matter how much I play with it.
    Totally does. Play harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I don't know the answer to thse questions; they are too big for me. There is no doubt it is interesting but I don't think the enneagram lends well to this kind of linear rationality you have applied with the best of intentions.
    Only part I'm still running into walls with is the harmonics, gonna be waiting a while for a "eureka" moment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    If memory serves, the enneagram shape itself is a product of linking together in sequence the decimal representation of 1/7. 142857 ... 1 disintegrates to 4 disintegrates to 2 disintegrates to ... WHOA DUDE

    Integration/disintegration is basically a load of crap and isn't at all helpful to understanding the system. Ignore the system as working in some weird circle pattern and just focus on the triads, it'll be much more clear in the long run.
    I'm not sure if we agree that the shape is moot, its the epistemology that is important.

    I don't really think the integration/disintegration is crap; it was built with meaningful purpose and in good faith (whether I agree with that purpose and the enneagram or not).

    Enneagram seems to be plagued by a degree of forer effects to higher degree than say Socionics Model A since the enneagram has only three anchors: a focus of anger/desire and the integration and disintegration pathways; whereas it is plausible to argue that a Socionics type has 8 anchors if completely through derived and resolved making it a more stable psychological hypothesis.

    If i ignore integration/disintegration then I'm ignoring enneagram and going off the map and I'm reducing the type validity.

    Regarding this and tri-types (which are a guilty pleasure and invention of typewatch and personalitycafe becuase 'having more types = more definitive = cool'.) You can have more traits, but you can't have more types. In itself just like IxTp might be in Socionics, it's a statement of 'I don't know' rather than declaring two types. Because it means you haven't resolved sufficient anchors to derive a type successfully - that's an appropriate outcome that few don't like to admit in public.

    This is just me taking a position that makes sense, if other people want to take other positions because they think there is another epistomology - that's cool.

    @woofwoofl then you have to explicitly refer to Gurdjieff's enneagram because none of the source material used in modern '?practice? / ?discourse?' relates to it. Ichazo had over a hundred enneagrams, but the only one people talk about today is Naranjo's where the integration and disintegration are defined by the system rather than being a optional 'ignore this if you want' component. It gave the enneagram types some level of definition and relations with the overall whole in the same way that socionics does using intertype relationships.

    So okay, this is Woofwoofl's enneagram which is its own unique invention; that's fine and an acceptable epistomolgy if that's what you want to do.
    Last edited by InvisibleJim; 10-08-2014 at 02:45 PM.

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    Olly From Wally World's Avatar
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    What is the point of this? Not that I think that there's no point- imagine that I asked that in a casual and curious tone rather than a dismissive one- I just want to know concisely what you're aiming at or why you did this. I like how enthusiastic you get about these Woofian things but they're usually hard for me to wrap my head around. It's like, I like the enthusiasm but am also wondering what you're getting enthusiastic about. I don't get it, but it may just be me and a few others and that may not even matter anyways, but I look at it and wonder if these decimals and graphs are significant, simplifies things or whatever. Is it like showing your work when doing math? Hmmm, wait. I'm betting it's mainly something new, right?

    Also, what is your critique on Naranjo? Yeah, I like his stuff but I ask more so out of curiosity. Many of the peeps you read probably derive a lot of their work from him. I guess a con is how trait-like and extreme his subtypes seems but I do like them archetypically (not a word apparently) and it was illuminating for me and I still consider the whys and inner motivations important rather than just the product. Others promote the subtypes and give more info or explain them in a less extreme way or a clearer way. And his DSM-like approach in Character and Neurosis is good even though it's more negative. I know you don't like how 'emo' and negative it is but what else? In Non-Woofian, por favor. I will purchase Rosetta Stone for Woofian when I get my pay check Thursday.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollyx2OxenFree View Post
    What is the point of this? Not that I think that there's no point- imagine that I asked that in a casual and curious tone rather than a dismissive one- I just want to know concisely what you're aiming at or why you did this. I like how enthusiastic you get about these Woofian things but they're usually hard for me to wrap my head around. It's like, I like the enthusiasm but am also wondering what you're getting enthusiastic about. I don't get it, but it may just be me and a few others and that may not even matter anyways, but I look at it and wonder if these decimals and graphs are significant, simplifies things or whatever. Is it like showing your work when doing math? Hmmm, wait. I'm betting it's mainly something new, right?
    Mainly a way to bring order and interconnectivity to all of the Enneagram itself; to tie the roots of the system together with the more recent advancements, and to bring it all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollyx2OxenFree View Post
    Also, what is your critique on Naranjo? Yeah, I like his stuff but I ask more so out of curiosity. Many of the peeps you read probably derive a lot of their work from him. I guess a con is how trait-like and extreme his subtypes seems but I do like them archetypically (not a word apparently) and it was illuminating for me and I still consider the whys and inner motivations important rather than just the product. Others promote the subtypes and give more info or explain them in a less extreme way or a clearer way. And his DSM-like approach in Character and Neurosis is good even though it's more negative. I know you don't like how 'emo' and negative it is but what else? In Non-Woofian, por favor. I will purchase Rosetta Stone for Woofian when I get my pay check Thursday.


    First issue I have comes from Naranjo zealots most evidently, but the source can be traced all the way back through western psychology, and fills every last corner of the forum itself; the issue is a lack of holism. From the very beginning, the enneagram was designed to be connective. All people having all nine fixes. A system connected to meditation, chakras, spirituality, energy, and the rhythms of life itself, mathematics being a key to unlocking some of these. Naranjo deliberately departed from this, and the next step down that road to hell is to miscall some dismembered panopoly of neuroses the enneagram while hacking off the roots and the branches. Monetizing the enneagram is more disconnection. When the structure and the spirit of the system are violated, then what's left?

    I read far and wide, all over the place; his material is in my huge bank of understanding, both directly and indirectly, and the roots run deeper and spread further than that. Posts on here, on the EIDB, anything and everything...

    Second issue ties into the first, and it's the conflation of negativity with reality; the more negative something is, the more real it must be? I have never understood this. Once again, this goes before him and after him, and the link to the DSM is telling; years ago, western psychology consisted of going door to door, carving holes in peoples' skulls and jamming ice picks into their brains. Why would I want to use this as the roots?

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    At least as long as enneagram's gonna be used to self-describe, it makes sense to use, as hubs, the areas where the self is most distant from the all; these being the midpoints between 1 and 2 (1/2), 4 and 5 (4/5), and 7 and 8 (7/8). 4/5 is the self in its purest sense, 7/8 is desire in its purest sense, and 1/2 is absolute law. 3, 6, and 9 would be muddled/enriched echoes of these hubs, useful for interpersonal/sentient consonance, also useful as boundaries between the domains of the true hubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    At least as long as enneagram's gonna be used to self-describe, it makes sense to use, as hubs, the areas where the self is most distant from the all; these being the midpoints between 1 and 2 (1/2), 4 and 5 (4/5), and 7 and 8 (7/8). 4/5 is the self in its purest sense, 7/8 is desire in its purest sense, and 1/2 is absolute law. 3, 6, and 9 would be muddled/enriched echoes of these hubs, useful for interpersonal/sentient consonance, also useful as boundaries between the domains of the true hubs.
    like I told u in chatbox some time back, aseity is a good term for this. Perhaps you can relate atomicity to this somehow too... any good ideas?

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