Park Chan Wook

[suedehead]

[suedehead]

Thought it'd be useful.

[Whoobie77]

I think he's some sort of Gamma Introvert. The entire point of Oldboy was about how even the most mundane of human interactions can have unforseen, unknowable consequences (Ni), possibly causing someone enough internal pain (Fi) that they may someday retaliate (Se).

[Radio]

I think he's some sort of Gamma Introvert. The entire point of Oldboy was about how even the most mundane of human interactions can have unforseen, unknowable consequences (Ni), possibly causing someone enough internal pain (Fi) that they may someday retaliate (Se).

really? that literal?

[Whoobie77]

really? that literal?

ok maybe not "entire point" but I'm tired and sometimes I use hyperbole when I'm arguing. cut a brotha sum slack, yo?

I'm not an EII, I don't see all the crazy shit that you guys do in art

[Radio]

MY FEELINGS HAVE COLORS MY TEARS ARE RAINBOWS

[Radio]

i've seen Oldboy and Cut (i think it was called?), i could never honestly relate to anything in his movies. inclined to put him in beta cuz thematically everything about him is beta to me, but what do i know~~

[Whoobie77]

i've seen Oldboy and Cut (i think it was called?), i could never honestly relate to anything in his movies. inclined to put him in beta cuz thematically everything about him is beta to me, but what do i know~~

I don't like this therefore opposing quadra

What about Oldboy is Fe? The whole plot turns on the axis of a private wound that the antagonist suffered, and how he carried inside of him for decades. Betas are much more "in the moment" with their emotions.

Also, I just saw Stoker the other day. Stars Mia Wasikowska (EII), Nicole Kidman (ESI), written by Wentworth Miller (LIE). If Chan Wook is Fe valuing, he sure knows how to surround himself with the wrong people...

[Radio]

I don't like this therefore opposing quadra

What about Oldboy is Fe? The whole plot turns on the axis of a private wound that the antagonist suffered, and how he carried inside of him for decades. Betas are much more "in the moment" with their emotions.

Also, I just saw Stoker the other day. Stars Mia Wasikowska (EII), Nicole Kidman (ESI), written by Wentworth Miller (LIE). If Chan Wook is Fe valuing, he sure knows how to surround himself with the wrong people...

well he could be gamma as well, i don't necessarily disagree. i wouldn't say betas are more within the moment but that they're permissive towards other people "directing" or redirecting the collective mood and/or their emotional states by expressing said emotion, whereas Fi types are resistant towards it and tend to go off of closeness and past exchanges to guess where they're at emotionally. it's the same thing, done two different ways. i wouldn't postulate that that means betas can't or don't hold grudges (esp IEIs).

obvious Se/Ni valuing, though. (Oldboy, I mean)

[Amber]

I think he's some sort of Gamma Introvert. The entire point of Oldboy was about how even the most mundane of human interactions can have unforseen, unknowable consequences (Ni), possibly causing someone enough internal pain (Fi) that they may someday retaliate (Se).

this description could very well be Beta, it doesn't hold. Or are you kind of trying to establish an avant-garde dichotomy where Fi is internal pain and Fe only martin luther king jr or malcolm x?

[Amber]

Betas are much more "in the moment" with their emotions.
.

Bullshit. You're ILE-Ti.

[The Martrix]

Fi is felt in relation to other people, I believe.

+ Fi - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;

+ Fe - positive emotions, joy, merriment, emotional elation, excitement, a smile, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, the experience of happiness;
− Fe - negative emotions, grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of unhappiness;

[Amber]

Fi is felt in relation to other people, I believe.

+ Fi - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;

+ Fe - positive emotions, joy, merriment, emotional elation, excitement, a smile, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, the experience of happiness;
− Fe - negative emotions, grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of unhappiness;

His line of argument was that someone experiencing "a wound" and living for more than 5 minutes with some sort of pain (albeit suppressed/ repressed) that could compel them to get even after some time is Quadra-related and specifically Fi. But even if he really wanted to associate such a universal human experience with Quadras, I would recommend him to watch movies in Eastwood's "Unforgiven" series.

Besides he hasn't been able to answer why a person fighting for human rights (specifically against racism and oppression) on a broad social level, not only on a personal one is a narcissist and mere "drama". I suppose he got the Nobel Prize for having a cult of personality only. Such a thing can only be uttered by a Fi polr who is striving to understand people according to far-fetched personal dichotomies that can hardly apply to that arena. It's not external manifestations of emotions that he doesn't understand or appreciate, it's intrinsic value (stuff like human dignity etc.).

[The Martrix]

His line of argument was that someone experiencing "a wound" and living for more than 5 minutes with some sort of pain (albeit suppressed/ repressed) that could compel them to get even after some time is Quadra-related and specifically Fi. But even if he really wanted to associate such a universal human experience with Quadras, I would recommend him to watch movies in Eastwood's Unforgiven series.

Besides he hasn't been able to answer why a person fighting for human rights (specifically against racism and oppression) on a broad social level, not only on a personal one is a narcissist and mere "drama". I suppose he got the Nobel Prize for having a cult of personality only. Such a thing can only be uttered by a Fi polr who is striving to understand people according to far-fetched personal dichotomies that can hardly apply to that arena. It's not external manifestations of emotions that he doesn't understand or appreciate, it's intrinsic value (stuff like human dignity etc.).

You're so right
We can't put everything into quadras.

[suedehead]

"I believe there are more films that involve love and forgiveness than violence, but they often seem fake and are almost embarrassing to watch."

"I guess I probably make violent films partly because I can't express my anger in my real life very well."

"When you first hear Mozart's music, your first impression is that it's very alive, but if you peel away the layers, you can hear sorrow and sadness behind it, and that's what I try to be: multi-layered."

"All of the characters in my films, they share one commonality. It doesn't matter whether they are good or bad, it doesn't matter whether they are smart or stupid, these characters all take responsibility for their own behavior. I'm much the same."

"I believe 'love' is very nice to hear, but it's used so much that it's come to a point where it's almost meaningless."

"When we are confronted with extreme situations, we forget about moral issues; we simply act and must then accept the consequences."

"When I was going through puberty, I had all these feelings of being unstable through those years, and being uncontrollably drawn to things of beauty and things that are bad."

"If you would ask me what my ideal process is, I would say, long pre-production, long production and long post-production."

"Certain subjects may no longer be taboo in cinema. But there are ways to treat them that still create shock."

"Living without hate for people is almost impossible."

"In my opinion, all relationships between people have some sort of violence, and it is central."

"The point of revenge is not in the completion but in the process."

"A priest encounters temptation every day, and some of that desire is very natural."

"I have always meticulously storyboarded my films from beginning to end."

[suedehead]

LSI could be it.

[Whoobie77]

Bullshit. You're ILE-Ti.

perhaps

[Whoobie77]

Fi is felt in relation to other people, I believe
+ Fi - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;

This would make Woo-jin, the villian of Oldboy, Fi-Valuing, at least.

[The Martrix]

This would make Woo-jin, the villian of Oldboy, Fi-Valuing, at least.

I find someone can value one thing, and exhibit something entirely different for sake of expediency.

[Whoobie77]

I suppose he got the Nobel Prize for having a cult of personality only.

Isn't that how Obama got his?

[The Martrix]

Isn't that how Obama got his?

It's easy to mistake what Obama does for Fe, but it's all Fi.

[Whoobie77]

It's easy to mistake what Obama does for Fe, but it's all Fi.

i didn't say Obama was ENFj. I just was talking about his cult of personality.

I have no clue what type the man is. If you have a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

[The Martrix]

i didn't say Obama was ENFj. I just was talking about his cult of personality.

I have no clue what type the man is. If you have a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

Oh, I know you didn't. I was just carrying on from values versus presentation.
I have heard ESI for Obama. I haven't tried to type him before, myself.

[Whoobie77]

Oh, I know you didn't. I was just carrying on from values versus presentation.
I have heard ESI for Obama. I haven't tried to type him before, myself.

I think values vs. presentation is somewhat different when you're talking about a fictional character? Have you actually seen Oldboy, or is this conversation just theoretical?

Also, Obama, seems, I dunno, kind of ineffectual at pushing his ideas through to be Se Ego. And he also seems to be lacking in strong convictions to be Fi. He's very "lead from behind". But I did read in an LIE-ESI duality thing that said ESIs "bring up the rear guard"...he doesn't seem Fe either...Idk, I'm not going to try and seriously type him.

[The Martrix]

I think values vs. presentation is somewhat different when you're talking about a fictional character? Have you actually seen Oldboy, or is this conversation just theoretical?.

It depends if the character was designed to be such a way, and not just inconsistently flipping between valuing one thing and then another (and that happens a lot). I'm thinking a manipulative character might have an agenda informed by a valuing of a certain information element, but still use a non-valued information element to aid it pragmatically. I haven't seen Oldboy, so this is pure speculation.

Also, Obama, seems, I dunno, kind of ineffectual at pushing his ideas through to be Se Ego. And he also seems to be lacking in strong convictions to be Fi. He's very "lead from behind". But I did read in an LIE-ESI that said ESIs "bring up the rear guard"...he doesn't seem Fe either...Idk, I'm not going to try and seriously type him.

I don't blame you. I'm remembering now that he was ENFJ is MBTI, but then, everyone who ever made a half decent speech anywhere was typed so. Oh, that and INFJ, a couple of times.
How would you expect an Se-creative to push their ideas through in such an environment?

[Whoobie77]

It depends if the character was designed to be such a way, and not just inconsistently flipping between valuing one thing and then another (and that happens a lot). I'm thinking a manipulative character might have an agenda informed by a valuing of a certain information element, but still use a non-valued information element to aid it pragmatically. I haven't seen Oldboy, so this is pure speculation.

well, in Oldboy, a relationship is calcified between two people at a young age. The movie mostly chronicles how one punishes the other over a span of years. The torturer manages to provoke some pretty exuberant emotional reactions out of his victim over the course of the film, but it seems secondary to the relational bond of hatred.

I could be wrong, It could be that he seeks the emotional expressions and the hatred is secondary. But that's just my interpretation. It wasn't just, as Rosewood said, because "being angry" is Gamma or something. I don't really understand what he/she was saying, tbh. When I'm watching a movie, I'm not like "This is so Ti!" It's just, when I'm on the socionics forum, I use the lingo.

I don't blame you. I'm remembering now that he was ENFJ is MBTI, but then, everyone who ever made a half decent speech anywhere was typed so. Oh, that and INFJ, a couple of times.
How would you expect an Se-creative to push their ideas through in such an environment?

Well, like for instance, one of the things Obama ran on was that he was going to pull the troops out. To me, it seems as though Se Egos are masters of expansion and contraction of control over space. If he really wanted to contract quickly, he could. Instead, he followed a timetable set in place by someone else.

Also, he seems "Judicious", or at the very least, more judicious than a Se Type. If a Se type said, "This is the red line, don't cross or we'll shoot" I doubt you would catch them backpedaling and making rhetorical excuses.

[The Martrix]

well, in Oldboy, a relationship is calcified between two people at a young age. The movie mostly chronicles how one punishes the other over a span of years. The torturer manages to provoke some pretty exuberant emotional reactions out of his victim over the course of the film, but it seems secondary to the relational bond of hatred.

I could be wrong, It could be that he seeks the emotional expressions and the hatred is secondary. But that's just my interpretation. It wasn't just, as Rosewood said, because "being angry" is Gamma or something. I don't really understand what he/she was saying, tbh. When I'm watching a movie, I'm not like "This is so Ti!" It's just, when I'm on the socionics forum, I use the lingo.

That's another reason why typing characters is hard. It's all in the interpretation.#
It depends on whether we typed based on motivations or on behaviours.

Well, like for instance, one of the things Obama ran on was that he was going to pull the troops out. To me, it seems as though Se Egos are masters of expansion and contraction of control over space. If he really wanted to contract quickly, he could. Instead, he followed a timetable set in place by someone else.

Also, he seems "Judicious", or at the very least, more judicious than a Se Type. If a Se type said, "This is the red line, don't cross or we'll shoot" I doubt you would catch them backpedaling and making rhetorical excuses.

That's so true. Conflict avoidant or what?

[Amber]

It wasn't just, as Rosewood said, because "being angry" is Gamma or something. I don't really understand what he/she was saying, tbh. When I'm watching a movie, I'm not like "This is so Ti!" It's just, when I'm on the socionics forum, I use the lingo..

That's not what I said. Quit the BS.

[Whoobie77]

That's not what I said. Quit the BS.

as I said, I don't really understand you're saying. it sounds like you are having some kind of low-level schizotypal argument with yourself

[Amber]

as I said, I don't really understand you're saying. it sounds like you are having some kind of low-level schizotypal argument with yourself

that's what *you* sound to me in your efforts to be a ILI or a Gamma or whatever.

[Whoobie77]

that's what *you* sound to me in your efforts to be a ILI or a Gamma or whatever.

well, you've inspired me to retype myself

[Amber]

well, you've inspired me to retype myself

you shouldn't have asked me

[suedehead]

I think he's some sort of Gamma Introvert. The entire point of Oldboy was about how even the most mundane of human interactions can have unforseen, unknowable consequences (Ni), possibly causing someone enough internal pain (Fi) that they may someday retaliate (Se).

Watched the movie again. Not really seeing it.

Oh Dae-Su - Beta ST
Lee Woo-Jin - EIE-Ni
Mi-Do - IEI

[bolong]

i've seen Oldboy and Cut (i think it was called?), i could never honestly relate to anything in his movies. inclined to put him in beta cuz thematically everything about him is beta to me, but what do i know~~

I could never relate to anything in Oldboy either, but it has a strange appeal because of its aesthetics and how it takes its randomness so seriously. Those things sound alpha, no? Also the biggest fans of Oldboy I know are alpha (ILE).

[Radio]

I could never relate to anything in Oldboy either, but it has a strange appeal because of its aesthetics and how it takes its randomness so seriously. Those things sound alpha, no? Also the biggest fans of Oldboy I know are alpha (ILE).

not a bad typing, to be honest. much more plausible than ILI. Fe/Ti valuing at the very least IMO.