Aggressive IEE's

[Park]

Who cares what you prefer. Fuck off, and fuck your self-proclaimed niceness.

[Kim]

Who cares what you prefer. Fuck off, and fuck your self-proclaimed niceness.

What I have ever done to you to invite this vitriol is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

[Park]

What I have ever done to you to invite this vitriol is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

Fucks for fucks, niceness for niceness, you know how it goes...

[Kim]

Fucks for fucks, niceness for niceness, you know how it goes...

No, I dont know how it goes. I don't consider relationships business transactions. But if you feel the need to be mean, knock yourself out. To quote you, "do what you want, I dont care."

[Park]

Woohoo, my impact factor is rising.

[Park]

@anndelise: I am reading over our conversation and I think I'm starting to see where you were coming from on some points. I would say that you were replying not to what I meant by what I said, but to what you read into (/got from) it. I am inclined to believe that this was unintentional (especially considering the way you went on to elaborate your points) but I was put off by the to erroneous interpretations and not getting my point across, so I didn't bother digging deeper into the stuff you brought up, which, even though only loosely related to (the intended meaning of) what I said, has some merit on its own. I may comment more later if I find sufficient time and inspiration.

[Absurd]

Kiss him, Kim...

[Absurd]

IEE Party.

[Olduvai]

1. Se-role has nothing to do with directness, firmness, or aggression.
2. applejacks, Kim, mikemex, and anndelise aren't IEE.
3. Park, I sympathise with you.

[applejacks]

1. Se-role has nothing to do with directness, firmness, or aggression.
2. applejacks, Kim, mikemex, and anndelise aren't IEE.
3. Park, I sympathise with you.

Then what are we?

[Olduvai]

Then what are we?

not-IEE. You seem SEI to me, but I've literally never talked to you so idk. I need to hear someone speak in order to type them.

[Eliza Thomason]

1. Se-role has nothing to do with directness, firmness, or aggression.
2. applejacks, Kim, mikemex, and anndelise aren't IEE.
...

I notice type qualities a lot when I am reading posts even when I am not trying to, just ideas and insights come to me and sometimes I notice some self-named types are not what I think they are. When I say so they get mad so I try not to share that anymore. And I could be wrong on some of those anyway.

But some I am quite sure on, including that I am IEE. And I feel very, very sure that applejacks is IEE and not any other type.

[applejacks]

not-IEE. You seem SEI to me, but I've literally never talked to you so idk. I need to hear someone speak in order to type them.

You know, I think with your help I've finally figured it out!

How to Accurately Type People

[Eliza Thomason]

HereticWacey, what you said is surprisingly true. I am in a Dual relationship, we are in love (though SLI says he does not know what "in love" means- he only knows that he loves me and wants to be with me, always, which is sort of how it is for me, too, though I did fall hard for him at first - so much that it was surprising and very unsettling).

Anyway, even though we have been planning a future for over 2 years now, we have been apart a lot of that time, living in 2 different homes 2 different states - we are currently in a new phase, sharing a home (my home) here in order to save money before we marry this spring (and sell this and move to his house this summer). We have not the togetherness of "married", as we wait for annulment; we are doing this because we really need to save money. So right now it feels like we are playing house. We are getting to know what its like to be together day-to-day and coordinate things together, make serious plans and initiate big changes together. And we are learning a lot about each other.

One thing I notice is how much more assertive I have been, and sometimes it scares me. I am used to being non-assertive and "serving" in relationships. I tend to be accommodating in all my friendships. I am comfortable going with the flow. Yet this more assertive side is coming out in the thick of things, as we initiate together serious practical changes in order to knit our lives together.

I can remember exactly when this new assertiveness started, early on in our relationship. It was because when we met, SLI was in a bad state, and discouraged (we met after writing as "strictly friends" for a long time, and did not intend to start a relationship), and I had a lot of ideas for helping him find his way out. But I kept them to myself. My ex-husband used to get angry when I expressed ideas. But I finally shared some ideas, haltingly, after asking permission to, and he was so grateful, and open and accepting of the ideas, which surprised me. Later when I found out we were Duals I found that is not an unusual exchange for IEE/SLI.

So I want to comment on some of these IEE assertiveness things you mentioned, as its on Gem's topic:

^ The above sort of illustrates the point I want to make. The point is this, IEE are often demanding of their SLI duals.

I have seen it time and again. "I don't want to eat at that place, lets go to this place, they have better appies and I like the waitresses". "She wasn't being nice to you, she was hitting on you cause she is attracted to you". "If you want you could talk to her and that would lead to her feeling such and such way about you". "Haven't you already had enough to drink tonight, don't you want to save room for more later on?" "I'm tired, do we need to be up this early in the morning to have homemade pancakes?" "The cab is here, we could all go together and meet up it will be fun".

Nothing they say seems to be demanding on the surface, yet underneath much of what they say is suggestible. It's a kind of "let's do things my way cause I have thought about all the alternatives and I am a gooood judge of what's good/not good, worthwhile/notworthwhile. .

This exchange above makes me squirm a bit and I think that's because I think its the truth, and I do this and to read it makes me self-conscious. Such day-to-day assertiveness is what I have "increased" in and surprised myself with. And I am thinking those very things that you say are behind the assertiveness.. I am assertive because I think I know, since I have researched it, thought about it. Add to that, I also "know" the thinking that went into his ideas so I can make a comparative judgement on the spot.

(The only exception to what you said is that I am careful not to ever tell SLI what he should eat or drink as he once expressed he hates when his sister does that).

But I squirm because I am still getting accustomed to this side of me. I thought in my long marriage it was a great merit of mine to be so accommodating to my ex's demands, and I worked at being quietly patient about his expectation and his lack af gratitude for my efforts. Well that ESE-ex took up with a who I think is an ESI, and my son says my ex, who I did so much for and who avoided doing anything for me, ever, does everything she asks. She runs the show (he moved into her house where she ran the show with her ex) and my son says if he grumbles she glares at him and he immediately shuts up and does what she asked! All I know is that my accommodating ways that I thought were such merit were never appreciated.

But because I thought they were a "merit", when this new assertiveness comes out today, I question if its "okay". So I ask SLI all the time if we have been doing things my way too much, and is there is anything he wants to do differently, and is he quite sure??

I think the SLI is somewhat subject to the IEE desires in the way that the LSE is subject to EII interpersonal demands. You just seriously don't argue with them, if they want to go to this place over that place, and they want us all to go, everyone had better go. It would hella scary to argue with them when they are in Se mode. I do see them being assertive this way with Duals and even activity partners in a way that they are not assertive with others.

LOL. Not sure exactly how we are in Se mode. Its seems like its a mode I don't think much about so I am not sure what you mean. Also I have not seen the LSE/EII dynamic but I can see how my LSE brother woudl really benefit from a EII's direction in the interpersonal department. But yeah, it does seem there is a way that SLI is subject to IEE. I have been contemplating it lately. Its rather nice for me, because I had the lack of understanding from my Benefactor husband some years and then before that my SEI mother who ran the home quite firmly and invalidated who I was, in my mind.

Now, amazingly, I have SLI, who cares ]what I think and thinks it matters! Its kind of amazing. Sometimes I have wondered if its because I am Libra, a Cardinal sign, and he is Sagittarius, a Mutable sign. I don't know. I wonder how that works with other signs?? ( @applejacks - what are you and your husband?)

The EXCEPTION being when talking in a predetermined social manner, such as when ordering food from a server. "I would have the blah blah blah, with blah blah, and it's possible I have a substitution ceasar for spring salad?" It's a question sure, but one that was rhetorical, of course the IEE is having the substitution. This follows the aristocratic dichotomy.

I can be picky when ordering food, too, and I do ask politely, like this. I can see me having this same exact exchange. (But, the dressing on the side!)

In a open ended social setting wherein the need to be the acting authority on a topic like that of a technical nature, they seem to doubt themselves. An IEE I know is a chiropractor and she was having a difficult time in the beginning about speaking with her clients and having the professional "authority" to come across as though she really does know what she is doing. An LSE helped her out in this regard, by counseling her to trust herself and to speak with authority and assertiveness, "you know what you are talking about, you have been trained with horse chiropractics for two years, don't doubt yourself, people will notice if you doubt yourself". By the time I met this women, she was very assertive and yet very personable at the same time. You guys ever met people like that?

I have had to learn assertiveness in many work/professional occasions. I learned it the hard way, by finding out bad results when I was not assertive enough, in very similar situations like this, and often to get assertive I needed advice that I sought from others who were more natural at my deficient area, like a LSE would be.

I remember telling one LSE that I was overwhelmed at work because I was having trouble saying no to requests (to do extra things for people). I remember him saying plainly, as if it never occurred to him anyone would have this problem: "I have no trouble saying no at all in those situations". I remember thinking I believed him, and that people probably did not like him any less for saying no. (I think I was afraid people would like me less...) anyway, I think him just being himself inspired me to learn how to say no, and I finally did. With much forethought, and very politely.... And a big problem was I had trouble saying no but the people had no trouble asking (like I would, and I was projecting my ways on them). I found that people really could handle being told "I'm sorry, no, I can't help you with that."

In the realm of proper form, for example if you need advice on what to do about your relationships, or how you should treat your boss at work, or what's a fair way of dealing with this and that problem, I think the IEE is more adept at discussing topics like this.

Yes, that's totally true - I can be helpful on all these particular topics, pretty much all of the time.

... I think that IEE are very assertive when they come into their own.

It seems to be whats happening to me. It also seems like these days I am recovering what I gained during my college and early career years - a very positive time of "coming into my own" for me - and lost in the oppression of my marriage to my ex....

[Eliza Thomason]

Hi, Park! My supposed Dual. Maybe you aren't my Dual, though. These two posts below reminded me of how sometimes on other posts of yours I have really wondered if you are in fact SLI. This time I felt it strong enough to write it. As I said to @Kenneth Chesney in this thread, I get these ideas about people's types, as they express themselves here, real strong sometimes.

I don't think, though, that you are someone who would take offense at all if I tell you I just got this question about your type, which has only sort of occurred to me before but I always vetoed it: that you might not be SLI. I cannot imagine you getting emotionally upset or offended that I think your type might not be what you think it is. I think you would think: "I don't care" if you were sure, and if you were not sure and curious what our type was you be at least have a passing interest in my opinion of it.

So I write here confident that I will not offend you by saying I question your type.

However, I have not given up the idea that you are SLI since you have written posts that give me the SLI-idea. But then, there have been other posts of yours that make me question it. Like these two below, that now have me really questioning it..


Park to Gem:

Normally, I would ask what sounded like a hell lot of expectations to have, but I have the feeling you'll respond to everything but my question. And that's exactly the type of answers I try to avoid wasting my time and nerves for.
....
I was more antsy than angry, for personal reasons. But I'd rather be angry than stupid, i.e., incapable of telling the difference between the myriad of unrelated shit you put together in one basket.

Park to Kim:

Who cares what you prefer. Fuck off, and fuck your self-proclaimed niceness.

I am simply questioning you are SLI because my SLI would NEVER be offensive like this. He states his opinions strongly and surely and breifly, but, he never turns on a person in a mean way like you did here. Never, ever. Not in his whole life. If a person's reasoning was too long or too hard to follow he would just briefly comment on part of what they said, using his brevity to take change of the exchange and close it. But he would not say that all their words were a myriad of unrelated things, or anything put-down like that. It woudl not quickly end the boring exchange, which would be his goal, and he is efficient. Your response was not an efficient way to accomplish that goal.

You've done this before (been what I thought was rude or crass, and I have told you ' "directly" I thought you had been that, on one or possibly two occasions,. Not sure how you felt about that. (Perhaps you would have a similar response as my SLI would: "How do I feel about that? What do you mean how do I feel?!"

So I wonder here if you are really SLI, because not only my SLI but my SLI brother and my SLI Dad also socially would not say mean things to people. They might think it, but they woudl never say it, aloud or in writing. They prefer to "get along" socially. They might issue a sharp "buzz off" type command to curtly end a situation they did not like, but would not be hostile in any personal way.

Also I solicit other people's opinions, who know other SLI's, or maybe are SLI. Is this ever the kind of talk of SLIs, in your experience?

Also Park, what other types have you considered you might be? (I don't have any strong ideas what else you could be). I know you considered LSI once at least (my Conflictor). I did not think you were my Conflictor, but then, you could be. You have not expressed yourself extensively in your posts that I have read here, so, I could have missed it entirely. I don't know,. Just asking.

______

Also I want to add, on that post to Kim, that to me, seems shockingly mean (as did your post to Gem), I cannot imagine my SLI telling me or anyone that their niceness was "supposed". He is a trusting type, as SLI often is - too trusting - and he cannot read a woman or other feeling-type person's ways that well and will often trust that how they act is how they are when he should not (he misses the signs of insincerity). He is not likely ever to have the idea that someone's niceness is a put-on. I just don't see any SLI being like this. Their trusting in these matters can trip them up - time and again, its a lesson they just don't seem to learn from experience because they lack that insight. In my experience.

_______

editing to add: or maybe the post to Kim was not intended to be mean, but just a kind of sarcasm that I and my SLI woudl never use. Was it Sarcasm, Park? tell me because I am ignorant, it just went right over my head. If I ever joked like that it would sound all wrong because I would be out of my league. It is the kind of joking that shocks me from my SLE son sometimes. I have had to stretch myself with him to overlook/not scowl at times, at which is in fact just his sense of humor.

Yes, it sounds like Beta humor!

So now I am thinking ISTj might actually be possible for you, Park. What do you think??

ENFj would either be your Dual you admire or be a terribly annoying person as your Conflictor... Same with ENFp... comfortable or annoying...

[Absurd]

Heheh, Kenneth is in love with Park.

[anndelise]

I notice type qualities a lot when I am reading posts even when I am not trying to, just ideas and insights come to me and sometimes I notice some self-named types are not what I think they are. When I say so they get mad so I try not to share that anymore. And I could be wrong on some of those anyway.

your first post back, and of course this is the very first thing you talk about. No surprise.

[Radio]

i feel like IEE dudes are often kind of dickish and blunt, and care more about coming off as slightly aggressive. fake plastic teeth to ward off what they think is threatening. the world is not kind to NF males.

(IMO, IME, etc)

[Eliza Thomason]

your first post back, and of course this is the very first thing you talk about. No surprise.

Naw, I had several other posts. Real; rambly ones, that did not attract any attention.

Hi Ann.

[anndelise]

Naw, I had several other posts. Real; rambly ones, that did not attract any attention.

Hi Ann.

Oh? I saw some posted after the one I quoted, but not before, this was your first coming back post I saw. Would you be willing to link me to these previous posts? It would be nice to get to see you reenter the forum before you resume the recycled topic.

[Eliza Thomason]

Oh? I saw some posted after the one I quoted, but not before, this was your first coming back post I saw. Would you be willing to link me to these previous posts? It would be nice to get to see you reenter the forum before you resume the recycled topic.

Oh, sure. I am glad you are interested.

First I wrote #17 in this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...47#post1003347 (this I responded to right off because when I signed in, after being away, this is the only place there was any alerts in, from mentions or quotes or something. Usually I respond first, then go pontificate, etc. ).

I think feel like I wrote more that I actually did, I think because I did some reading and posted a bunch of likes I think.

The first post I wrote was an update on me in Delta Lounge that no one responded to, which is maybe why you didn't notice it. Its a long one with all the news about me, #4782: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...67#post1003367

Then it was after that I took an interest in this Aggressive IEE thread. I responded first to the one about people not being IEEs because that was the quickest one to respond to, so I just said my thing to get it out of the way and go on to my main things which was responding to HereticWacey, who's words as you can see, had the most impact on me. Not the typing thing. I did not mean to bring you into the not-IEE thing, though. Fact is, I am more positively sure, almost randomly, on some peoples types than others, for some random reason, and on eof those few include applejacks as IEE. Others include a random bunch like are Maritsa as EII, Ankh as SLE and, Silke and Kadda1212 as IEI, and, I don't know, DaftPunk as SLI - even though he is not as sure as me on that one! And now I am moving towards really thinking Park is LSI.... (and if he doesn't like my opinion on that I will never say it again).

[anndelise]

Oh, sure. I am glad you are interested.

...[]...

Then it was after that I took an interest in this Aggressive IEE thread. I responded first to the one about people not being IEEs because that was the quickest one to respond to, so I just said my thing to get it out of the way and go on to my main things which was responding to.

Ah, I see my error, this thread had been up for almost two weeks but you only took enough interest in it yesterday. And yeah, I had already read those posts you had linked to, I just hadn't realized they were only 3-4 days ago. ...Holy cow, time's weird. So much can happen in just a few days that it feels like weeks. And then sometimes it feels like it's just puttering along.

Thanks for answering.

[Beautiful sky]

Better question:

Are IEE territorial and spacial?

[kopyk]

Better question: Are IEE territorial and spacial?

Better just cuz u say so or better just cuz its new? If the later then its novelty for novelty's sake, & considering its you who brought it here, then the superiority would by extension be associated with you. Now who was it who said she ain't a narcissist again?

[applejacks]

Better question:

Are IEE territorial and spacial?

IEE? Or just women in general? (Hehe!)

[Absurd]

Park, so what type you are?

(Bump).

[Kim]

Kiss him, Kim...

I have a hunch that that might not be entirely welcome.

[Absurd]

I have a hunch that that might not be entirely welcome.

Keep your doggie with you, then.

[Kim]

Keep your doggie with you, then.

Which one? The one who loves people or the one who does not?

[Absurd]

Which one? The one who loves people or the one who does not?

Both, to see, which one is the boss.

[Olduvai]

You know, I think with your help I've finally figured it out!

How to Accurately Type People

betch, you're LII

[Olduvai]

Better question:

Are IEE territorial and spacial?

actually, this is the better question

well done

[Olduvai]

the world is not kind to NF males.

indeed, although I think Beta NF males have it easier than us Deltas

perhaps this is just a "the grass is greener" type thing

[wacey]

Better question:

Are IEE territorial and spacial?

actually that is an interesting line of inquiry.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Here is an excerpt from Rick's description.

Dominant implies a philosophical attitude towards physical territory (). If someone or something forces such a person out of a certain territory (a job, a room, a business, etc.), he or she quickly switches to thinking of alternatives ("that's fine, I was thinking of leaving anyway"). If one has items stolen, one quickly forgets about them and finds one didn't need them much anyway. It's hard to attach a type to material possessions. But if someone attacks their "potential" (talents, opportunities, and any other "unrealized potential") or their intellectual territory (their ideas and vision), that's quite another story. Here types can and will put up a fight and will wear out nearly any opponent. Just as types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' level of will, energy, and power and attack them when they are weak, types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' mental state and thought organization and attack them mentally when their thought processes are disorganized (this applies to confrontational situations).

Source: http://socionics.us/theory/bi.shtml

[wacey]

Nice find Ryene. This personally explains a fair bit of how things go for me with creative Ne.

[Kim]

I am simply questioning you are SLI because my SLI would NEVER be offensive like this. He states his opinions strongly and surely and breifly, but, he never turns on a person in a mean way like you did here.

I think any type can be mean under certain circumstances. The more interesting question is if the dual of a Ti-PoLR would be overly concerned with perceived inconsistencies and if the dual of a Ne-type would be annoyed by the mental leap in the OP (the leap from the quote to the question of aggression - Gem just left out a few steps in the thought process, which is fairly normal for an Ne type).

[Park]

[Kim]

If someone jerked off for the purpose of hitting my eye with cum, I would rip his fucking balls off. That being said, I think I should get into the habit of ripping balls off more often rather than trying to be nice. It is getting fucking old.

[Park]

You know, you could invent all the false rationale bullshit in the world, but the fact of the matter remains that firmness and directness have nothing to do with violence and physical aggression; and this was most definitely not implied in the context of the quoted excerpt, either. It's that simple. Another fact is that you're no more nicer than you decide to be.