Derail Delta Dating and Relationships - IEE discussion

[Kim]

Eliza, let's just be our own Delta NFs together <3 and not worry about anyone else and their opinion of us.

And this is where the problem lies.

[Beautiful sky]

And this is where the problem lies.

I don't want to interact with you or Ann. There's no problem there. I can make my relationship choices and hold anyone at any distance to myself as I please.

[Words]

And this is where the problem lies.

Why is this a problem?

I think the less people worry about faceless entities over the internet opinions of them the better.

[Eliza Thomason]

@Maritsa, just to keep things fair, you have had your share of aggressive behavior. You have called posters "stupid" and "bitch," etc., and you have ranted and raved in chat.
So either Delta NFs can be aggressive, too (those delicate peace-loving fairies) or you are not EII....
.

My close EII friend is a delicate peace-loving fairy almost all the time, but she can be suddenly quite ferocious when she is stepped on, or her loved ones are. I see a version of this in the other EII I know too.

And now I get it. IMO, its all this: There are a lot of SEE Supervisors stepping on her at times, and I bet its those times you see the "aggression" from her. And there is another aspect that must be typical of SEE, because of the Fe of SEE - their strong awareness of group dynamics and their identification with it - they cant just stand alone and disagree with @Maritsa on the forum, they have to pull others in to agree with them in their Supervisory Audits of her. And who joins in, but of course, other "IEE"s who are actually SEEs, who are very naturally sympathetic to the cause of putting ignorant Supervisee into her place. And sometimes their Duals chime in. It becomes then part of those SEEs group identity, and they make razor sharp little bribes all the time about Maritsa "retyping everyone as SEEs", to keep reconnecting to their group identity. That used to be so curious to me, but now it all comes together.

Its awful to witness Supervisors getting together for a gang-Audit on on Supervisee, because it is awful. If a Supervisors denouncing rant at Supervisee is not ugly enough, try multiplying it with a whole group of supervisors ranting at the same Supervisee. Its awful. Yes, so this is when Maritsa gets mad/ferocious/"aggressive."

I really feel this is the explanation, because when I first started reading/posting here, one and a half years ago (Thanks for the timeline, Ryene) what struck me as the most offensive and puzzling thing on the 16types Forum here was the mockery of Marista. I really wondered why the mods allowed this on the forum. So even though I liked Socionics better than MBTI, I felt a lot more comfortable on at the more friendly, less rude Percafe.

Yes, one of my first impressions on 16.types was of Maritsa, that she was really helpful with her observations in Socionics, which helped me understand things better. (And of course its natural that I woudl relate to her, since she is my Mirror). But her helpful ways juxtaposed with the ugly rants against her here made me confused. Now I feel its due to this, "IEE"s who Marista has said she thinks are SEEs. SEEs are her Supervisors who have no respect for their Supervisee and cannot appreciate them at all. That was the arrogant dismissive stuff i was seeing and so shocked by.

But now I see its Supervisors just doing what they do. And we are all guilty of doing that to one type because we are all Supervisor to someone. It made me look at my own life - I am my mother's Supervisor. And I take care of her! I read that when the Supervisor is under the authority of the Supervisee IRL she can be dismissive and disrespectful of her. And I realized this was true of me. I was obedient to her for most of my childhood (as my parents expected of us) but in my teen years I was not so much, and certainly I was disrespectful of her and did not value her gifts as a person, and have not given her gifts much homage, ever. I thought it was because of her! But in reality, it was me being her Supervisor.

I think it helps to tell yourself that if you are someone's Supervisor it is likely your way toward them is overly critical and if you are devaluing them its because YOU are missing something, not them!

Then again, if you are mistyped, you are confused as to who you Supervise, who is your Mirror and even who is your Dual!

I think its important to know your type (if you have interest in Socionics, and if you are in this forum, theoretically, you do). Because when you are mistyped you miss out on so much! Really, that is the drive behind my stating my "truth" as far as retypes. I am really into truth, and have pursued this much of my life, because I know: The truth setts you free. Lies in your life enslave you in one way or another.
________

Here are some notes from Socionics researchers that will show us all how really awful we can be in our Supervisor positions:

O.Slinko:
"Supervisor can monitor every step the Supervisee takes, while Supervisee is powerless to resist this influence: all of his strong features "drown" in the appropriate function of the Supervisor. Supervisee tries to resist and even to fight back: puts on a show of deliberate crudeness, orders the Supervisor around...

"From the point of view of the Supervisor, Supervisee seems to be endowed with great abilities, even talented, but also somehow deficient, "pathetic", and deserving of pity."

R.K. Sedih: "...partners look from the perspective of each other too critical, too picky, too suspicious. Indeed, in these relations there is a tendency to constantly test and re-test one another."

Laima Stankevichyute: "Supervisor speaks in the most offensive to the supervisee words, but himself also doesn't feel well in these relations. Supervisee is persistently and unconsciously annoying and frustrating his supervisor. Although they both feel stressed, since this is an asymmetric relationship, the supervisee suffers more".

I.D. Vaisband: "Supervisee constantly suffers from the Supervisor, but cannot "get back" at him. Supervisor suffers as well and is annoyed by the Supervisee. Supervisee feels extremely uncomfortable."

A.V. Bukalov, G. Boiko: "These relations are characterized by the fact that the auditor, as a rule, is always dissatisfied with the actions of audited person. As soon as supervisee shows some initiative or expresses a thought, he may feel bombarded with corrections and criticisms by the supervisor or have them simply dismissed. At the same time, supervisee cannot counter these charges - supervisor suppresses him. "

[Kim]

Why is this a problem?

I think the less people worry about faceless entities over the internet opinions of them the better.

Why is this a problem?

I think the less people worry about faceless entities over the internet opinions of them the better.

It is not in itself a problem, but it becomes one when people claim authority over their type and dismiss other viewpoints. I wouldn't want newcomers to see Eliza as the archetypal IEE or Maritsa the archetypal EII or to believe that half of the earth's population is SEE or LSE.

[Words]

It is not in itself a problem, but it becomes one when people claim authority over their type and dismiss other viewpoints. I wouldn't want newcomers to see Eliza as the archetypal IEE or Maritsa the archetypal EII or to believe that half of the earth's population is SEE or LSE.

If the newcomer is willing to do their own reading, they'll come to their own conclusion, otherwise if they are just going to listen to whomever is posting at that given time, then they deserve there fate.

I think most people fall under the first bracket, maybe everyone who comes here, so I am not worrying about that.

[Kim]

I think its important to know your type (if you have interest in Socionics, and if you are in this forum, theoretically, you do). Because when you are mistyped you miss out on so much! Really, that is the drive behind my stating my "truth" as far as retypes. I am really into truth, and have pursued this much of my life, because I know: The truth setts you free. Lies in your life enslave you in one way or another.

It's your truth and yours alone. I don't claim "truths" as too many factors are beyond my knowledge and understanding. Many of my character traits are not known to you because you don't ask, yet you claim truth?

But if you want to go there: Why would NeFi be so adamant in claiming truth without asking the person relevant questions?

As a sidenote, I have not manipulated the social atmosphere, you have. Along with Maritsa you have very clearly created an "us vs. them" atmosphere (Fe).

I have never questioned YOUR type because I have enough respect for you to believe that you know yourself better than I know you. You don't extend me the same courtesy. You talk about me as "they" (SEEs). You create boundaries to strengthen the position of your inner circle.

All I am asking is that you keep an open mind about the types of others. Maritsa is not the only one here who knows about socionics. It's what IEEs do - they keep an open mind.

[mikemex]

The only unique characteristic of Delta NFs in relationships informal and formal that I can identify is that they will never admit to being unreasonable.

Logicals and ethicals have different ways to reason, did you know that? Most of the time ethicals are making connections to seemingly unrelated issues that logicals do not seem to grasp.

[Eliza Thomason]

Nice thread, I thought it was only the Se quadras who were meant to be at each others.

LOL

Try to calm us and the ones who are calmed by you, mighty SLI, are the REAL delta NFs. May the games begin.

Great Idea! SLIs can be our litmus test. Set the timer and we can rate the "leveling of Dual energy".

And this is where the problem lies.

Why is this a problem?

I think its the positive altruistic part of SEE that cares about the group and does not want to see people dividing into little separate "I don't like you" groups which is not a positive for a group's social health. (So I am saying, Kim, who is in my mind a SEE, you are showing concern for the group's social health with this statement).

[And I have a bit of Fe appreciation, too, and I think its better for the group if we all know our types].
Attachment 2221

[Words]

LOL



I think its the positive altruistic part of SEE that cares about the group and does not want to see people dividing into little separate "I don't like you" groups which is not a positive for a group's social health. (So I am saying Kim, who is in my mind a SEE, is showing concern for the group's social health with this statement).

[And I have a bit of Fe appreciation, too, and I think its better for the group if we all know our types].
Attachment 2221

Regardless of Kim's type or Kims opinion, I don't agreee with your statement about groups. Any type is capable of having any opinion on "I don't like you" groups, there is nothing in the functions to say otherwise.

I'll pay attention to you, I'm getting the impression you shake things up, and I might like it.

[InvisibleJim]

Logicals and ethicals have different ways to reason, did you know that? Most of the time ethicals are making connections to seemingly unrelated issues that logicals do not seem to grasp.

I know that, but that doesn't stop anyone from being human

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Thank you for the excellent simple explanation, Ryene. Yes, that is what I thought it was, too, except for me it was just an impression, one I was sure of, and you put it in just the right words.

It may be Fe-based, but it's not necessarily -based. and are not about external vs internal values; they're about the expressed emotion of the moment vs stable sentiments between people/things. egos can be affected by cultural values and environment just like anyone else.

Thanks for the correction, you're right. When I type fast I put it in all-caps. Then I edit and put in the lower-case. That time I forget to edit that part. (I am not a perfect typer, and do a lot of editing).

Alright. You'd done it elsewhere, so I had assumed it was intentional. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Eliza Thomason]

... @Eliza Thomason, I am not aggressive about wanting to be IEE

Yes, I don't see you in particular as being particularly aggressive in this way.

..and I am perfectly fine with you being IEE even if I often do not relate to you.

Yes, and I feel the very same way about you! Which makes us really seem like Look-alikes and not Identicals.

..There could very well a subtype divide here. I have never doubted I am IEE and my type has never been seriously questioned.

Its just the Psychologist in me, applying it to my intuiting something in the external thinking environment is off and wanting to figure out why. I do not see it as subtype divide. Its just not subtle enough for that.

..However, there are people who think I am a different type (Gilly thinks I am ESE) and that's fine, too.

I am glad to know you are open to other people holding their own differing opinions.

.. It's the agenda of claiming all that is Delta NF and not allowing for Delta NFs that are not like you that bothers me.

But this "not allowing" statement is not true. Its just as I said explained in differing ways later here in this thread, wanting to get at type truth, to understand better...

.. I am also bothered by the passive aggressiveness of taking a thread I opened and innocently stating that IEEs couldn't possibly like gore, right (however, no reference to my thread). What is the point of this? Why not make it a direct question with reference to my thread?

Well its normal for an IEE to get off topic, not anything personal. I was just musing. Thoughts coming out as I wrote, Things that were on my mind connecting to current things. As to off-topic, that is so normal here. My musing all came from getting hit with an offensive image by Park which was completely off the topic of your thread. It just reminded me of other things that have bothered me on this thread that are otherwise socially unacceptable, like referring to a persons God as "f-ing", of calling women a "cxxx" as if that sacred part of their body was some ugly thing. Lots of things. It made me wonder muse about the type connections, about how some have no reaction of offense when I do..

..(Passive) aggressiveness comes in all shapes and sizes.... Maritsa has been openly aggressive in the past numerous times. You are passive aggressive at times.

Passive-aggressiveness is pretty foreign to me.

..There is re-typing someone because you honestly have an opinion and there is re-typing because it is some sort of weapon: "if she is a different type, her argument cannot be valid because she doesn't get it." I feel like with your attempt to retype us, it's a bit of both.

Well, that's a generous concession but I am not trying to wield any weapon. I am just saying the truth as I see it.

..The fun of socionics is that although people might share a type, they might not, for example, share an enneagram type. I am a 7w6 and you are something else, that will make us different even if we both process information primarily through NeFi. When I go to my home country, I find IEEs to be slightly different than they are here. And so on. I honestly wish you could meet me in real life. You would be surprised I think.

I think in terms of Socionics, but I do notice the Enneagram differences too. Astrological differences, too!
To me, the the Socionics differences are clear and strong, and the others are more subtle shadings. I am 2w1. The wing-one part of me wants to get everything right, including this typing of people. The 2 part of me wants to help. I think it helps to know your Socionics type, very much for the self, but also for the group, and so I persist in the subject to get at truth, because life experience tells me that the truth sets you free. And that is a help to everyone. .

It is not in itself a problem, but it becomes one when people claim authority over their type and dismiss other viewpoints. I wouldn't want newcomers to see Eliza as the archetypal IEE or Maritsa the archetypal EII or to believe that half of the earth's population is SEE or LSE.

LOL to that latter statement. I don't know if I am "archtypal" IEE (or that Maritsa is "archtypal" EII) but I do think I read as IEE on the forum and that is a help to other IEEs or people trying to understand them. And I think it is quite confusing to people if actual SEEs identifyu themselves as IEEs! I don't think its good for the group, or for newcomers. But I think the real loss is to the mistyped individual. IMO.

It's your truth and yours alone. I don't claim "truths" as too many factors are beyond my knowledge and understanding. Many of my character traits are not known to you because you don't ask, yet you claim truth?

But if you want to go there: Why would NeFi be so adamant in claiming truth without asking the person relevant questions?

Because she very quickly can take in a whole person intuitively. Reading, as I do here, is enough, often. Sometimes seeing or even at first glance. I have a new friend who intuition tells me is IEE. (Who is astoundingly doing a tremendous favor for me today, driving a 740 mile round trip today to delver some furniture and household goods for me to my SLI, and she volunteered to do this on a whim, and left the next morning after she suggested it!!!) I am open though; I could be wrong. I keep waiting to disprove this, but it keeps getting "confirmed" in my mind. A very unique person, different from any IEE or other type I've known. Over time I will know for sure and also have more "evidence" to tell, which I don't have now.

As a sidenote, I have not manipulated the social atmosphere, you have. Along with Maritsa you have very clearly created an "us vs. them" atmosphere (Fe).

You have read me completely wrong on this. I do not have any interest in manipulating the social atmosphere. I concede to making a temporary social impact in the context of this thread, but that was not my intention. My intentions are much more "introverted" which is to get at the truth of a matter, and to state the truth as I see it. Expressing my ethics/feelings and the things I intuit.

I have never questioned YOUR type because I have enough respect for you to believe that you know yourself better than I know you. You don't extend me the same courtesy.

Well, @mikemex questioned my type and I just saw it as an interesting type discussion, an opportunity to discern what he is thinking, and not as any kind of discourtesy at all. You take my typing you a SEE as a discourtesy, but that is in no way my intention.

You talk about me as "they" (SEEs). You create boundaries to strengthen the position of your inner circle.

Well, maybe that is rude. I don';t mean to be. I will try to think of how to discuss the topic in a more polite manner in the future.

All I am asking is that you keep an open mind about the types of others. Maritsa is not the only one here who knows about socionics. It's what IEEs do - they keep an open mind.

True, and even when I am quite sure on a thing, I keep an open mind. It takes me a long time to be quite sure on a thing, too. Mikemex had the idea for a bit that I chose my religion because of some group influence and that couldn't have been further from the truth. I could right a book, a long one, on what I went through to make my choice. Which is why I never answered his question on why I am Christian, etc., besides thinking he maybe didn't really want to know the answer, he was just making a point on something - if I started writing it might become a book!

[Pa3s]

And now I get it. IMO, its all this: There are a lot of SEE Supervisors stepping on her at times, and I bet its those times you see the "aggression" from her. And there is another aspect that must be typical of SEE, because of the Fe of SEE - their strong awareness of group dynamics and their identification with it - they cant just stand alone and disagree with @Maritsa on the forum, they have to pull others in to agree with them in their Supervisory Audits of her. And who joins in, but of course, other "IEE"s who are actually SEEs, who are very naturally sympathetic to the cause of putting ignorant Supervisee into her place. And sometimes their Duals chime in. It becomes then part of those SEEs group identity, and they make razor sharp little bribes all the time about Maritsa "retyping everyone as SEEs", to keep reconnecting to their group identity. That used to be so curious to me, but now it all comes together.

A nice theory, but not really plausible. It might explain the accusations of retyping many IEEs as SEEs (who, btw, don't even value Fe), but that's just the tip of the iceberg. She just doesn't want people in her quadra who don't agree with her or don't like her, this applies to all four types. However, if someone self-types EII and does not think, feel and act exactly like Maritsa or how she believes is "right" for EII, she'll never stop bullying those people. Minde, Agarina (both EII) and others were retyped to SEI by her and Maritsa never grows tired of explaining them how they can't be EII because of some reason without being asked. I'm not absolutely sure, but there are maybe 1 or 2 people (besides herself) in the entire forum who were "officially" typed EII by Maritsa – statistically insignificant.

Not just IEE and SEE, but many of Maritsa's typings are quite weird and she has stated before that she never changes her mind about people's types which is, combined with her occasional "Blitz-typing" (assigning types after a handful of forum posts), not a good sign for her credibility, imho.

[anndelise]

And there is another aspect that must be typical of SEE, because of the Fe of SEE - their strong awareness of group dynamics and their identification with it - they cant just stand alone and disagree with @Maritsa on the forum, they have to pull others in to agree with them

Since SeFi have the same Fe positioning as NeFi, then the reasoning above could easily be used to support the suggestions that Eliza's 'strong awareness of group dynamics and her identification with it' means that 'she can't just stand alone to disagree with me, or Kim, or mikemex, but that she has to pull in others to agree with her' (mainly Maritsa, but has also tried pulling in WA and AJ as well).

[InvisibleJim]

2 IEE-Ne's/SEEs and 1 EII-Fi and an IEE-Fi/SEE walk into a bar.

The barman sells the bar and vows never to walk into a pub again.

[SyrupDeGem]

@Eliza Thomason Delta NF's can be aggressive at times ...as mentioned above especially when their values are trodden on, or they are cornered or protecting others that are cornered.

I don't understand how you would assume Kim is being aggressive in a supervisor way over being aggressive in a delta nf way because of values being trodden on.

I think you have a bit of a skewed opinion without much foundation. I personally find no cause to doubt Kim's typing of IEE. Maritsa, though she may mean well in a lot of situations does have a very peculiar way of typing. I think we worked out that she types over one third of the forum SEE. I have tried to discuss this with her using her own sources and find that she has zero method and choses whatever jumps out at her for a reason.

While there could be some merit to 'gut instinct' i believe Maritsa confuses this with emotional reaction to her own bias and finds it particularly difficult to be objective. Ofc we all do to some degree, it's just more obvious with some people. I still have not worked out the formula... but i'll keep trying.

[Hays]

I am unsure if I should be posting this or not....please accept my good intentions before you read.

Sometimes there are people whom it is easy to dislike and it is not so much to do with their type but more to do with just the way that person themselves is rather than who is supervising who etc.

So keep eyes open to how you may be coming across to others and making them feel - are you perhaps picking on them, attempting to exclude them, spreading falsities, sending abuse, attempting to manipulate or intimidate, being too critical or negative, ganging up on, speaking in a superior style or aggressiveness, putting them down, being too closed minded, attempting to gain power, presenting yourself as something you are not, did you perhaps have a difficult day and are taking it out on another, is there a jealousy on your part or a going overboard of defending yourself in some form etc.

Others will often give you more than one chance to prove your intentions if you have offended them in any manner so it's back in your hands on how to approach the next communication which occasionally may involve a need of not responding if you are not yet in a healthier frame of mind.

Keep in mind that the most common form of female bullying tends to favour exclusion and mockery:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

[Beautiful sky]

My close EII friend is a delicate peace-loving fairy almost all the time, but she can be suddenly quite ferocious when she is stepped on, or her loved ones are. I see a version of this in the other EII I know too.

And now I get it. IMO, its all this: There are a lot of SEE Supervisors stepping on her at times, and I bet its those times you see the "aggression" from her. And there is another aspect that must be typical of SEE, because of the Fe of SEE - their strong awareness of group dynamics and their identification with it - they cant just stand alone and disagree with @Maritsa on the forum, they have to pull others in to agree with them in their Supervisory Audits of her. And who joins in, but of course, other "IEE"s who are actually SEEs, who are very naturally sympathetic to the cause of putting ignorant Supervisee into her place. And sometimes their Duals chime in. It becomes then part of those SEEs group identity, and they make razor sharp little bribes all the time about Maritsa "retyping everyone as SEEs", to keep reconnecting to their group identity. That used to be so curious to me, but now it all comes together.

Its awful to witness Supervisors getting together for a gang-Audit on on Supervisee, because it is awful. If a Supervisors denouncing rant at Supervisee is not ugly enough, try multiplying it with a whole group of supervisors ranting at the same Supervisee. Its awful. Yes, so this is when Maritsa gets mad/ferocious/"aggressive."

I really feel this is the explanation, because when I first started reading/posting here, one and a half years ago (Thanks for the timeline, Ryene) what struck me as the most offensive and puzzling thing on the 16types Forum here was the mockery of Marista. I really wondered why the mods allowed this on the forum. So even though I liked Socionics better than MBTI, I felt a lot more comfortable on at the more friendly, less rude Percafe.

Yes, one of my first impressions on 16.types was of Maritsa, that she was really helpful with her observations in Socionics, which helped me understand things better. (And of course its natural that I woudl relate to her, since she is my Mirror). But her helpful ways juxtaposed with the ugly rants against her here made me confused. Now I feel its due to this, "IEE"s who Marista has said she thinks are SEEs. SEEs are her Supervisors who have no respect for their Supervisee and cannot appreciate them at all. That was the arrogant dismissive stuff i was seeing and so shocked by.

But now I see its Supervisors just doing what they do. And we are all guilty of doing that to one type because we are all Supervisor to someone. It made me look at my own life - I am my mother's Supervisor. And I take care of her! I read that when the Supervisor is under the authority of the Supervisee IRL she can be dismissive and disrespectful of her. And I realized this was true of me. I was obedient to her for most of my childhood (as my parents expected of us) but in my teen years I was not so much, and certainly I was disrespectful of her and did not value her gifts as a person, and have not given her gifts much homage, ever. I thought it was because of her! But in reality, it was me being her Supervisor.

I think it helps to tell yourself that if you are someone's Supervisor it is likely your way toward them is overly critical and if you are devaluing them its because YOU are missing something, not them!

Then again, if you are mistyped, you are confused as to who you Supervise, who is your Mirror and even who is your Dual!

I think its important to know your type (if you have interest in Socionics, and if you are in this forum, theoretically, you do). Because when you are mistyped you miss out on so much! Really, that is the drive behind my stating my "truth" as far as retypes. I am really into truth, and have pursued this much of my life, because I know: The truth setts you free. Lies in your life enslave you in one way or another.
________

Here are some notes from Socionics researchers that will show us all how really awful we can be in our Supervisor positions:

O.Slinko:
"Supervisor can monitor every step the Supervisee takes, while Supervisee is powerless to resist this influence: all of his strong features "drown" in the appropriate function of the Supervisor. Supervisee tries to resist and even to fight back: puts on a show of deliberate crudeness, orders the Supervisor around...

"From the point of view of the Supervisor, Supervisee seems to be endowed with great abilities, even talented, but also somehow deficient, "pathetic", and deserving of pity."

R.K. Sedih: "...partners look from the perspective of each other too critical, too picky, too suspicious. Indeed, in these relations there is a tendency to constantly test and re-test one another."

Laima Stankevichyute: "Supervisor speaks in the most offensive to the supervisee words, but himself also doesn't feel well in these relations. Supervisee is persistently and unconsciously annoying and frustrating his supervisor. Although they both feel stressed, since this is an asymmetric relationship, the supervisee suffers more".

I.D. Vaisband: "Supervisee constantly suffers from the Supervisor, but cannot "get back" at him. Supervisor suffers as well and is annoyed by the Supervisee. Supervisee feels extremely uncomfortable."

A.V. Bukalov, G. Boiko: "These relations are characterized by the fact that the auditor, as a rule, is always dissatisfied with the actions of audited person. As soon as supervisee shows some initiative or expresses a thought, he may feel bombarded with corrections and criticisms by the supervisor or have them simply dismissed. At the same time, supervisee cannot counter these charges - supervisor suppresses him. "

they will never accept or understand that this was the reason behind all of our contentions and my frustrations because unlike you they can't and don't want to connect those concepts and can't and don't want to see the picture like taht because it doesn't fit their agenda which is that they want to gain acceptance for being their own version of an IEE

[Scapegrace]

they will never accept or understand that this was the reason behind all of our contentions and my frustrations because unlike you they can't and don't want to connect those concepts and can't and don't want to see the picture like taht because it doesn't fit their agenda which is that they want to gain acceptance for being their own version of an IEE

Maybe you two charmers should branch off and start your own forum since you're so misunderstood.

[Eliza Thomason]

Since SeFi have the same Fe positioning as NeFi, then the reasoning above could easily be used to support the suggestions that Eliza's 'strong awareness of group dynamics and her identification with it' means that 'she can't just stand alone to disagree with me, or Kim, or mikemex, but that she has to pull in others to agree with her' (mainly Maritsa, but has also tried pulling in WA and AJ as well).

I am only doing what you did. You have had lots of people to join in with you and say "Yeah, Anndelise!" when you denounce and mock Maritsa. So now I am defending her and you are judging me for doing the same thing you did - siding with people who agree with you?? Doesn't make sense, Anndelise.

It should be totally normal that in the Delta forum I can relate to my NF Mirror's point of view. What is not normal at all is that in the Delta forum one who says she is her Mirror acts just like her Supervisor instead. Something very wrong there.

And believe me, I am NOT afraid to stand alone when it comes to standing up for what I think is true. In fact I am now standing alone in standing up for Maritsa. Others have, occasionally, in the past, but not in any balance to how she has been relentlessly harassed for calling self-typed IEEs and EIIs "SEE"s - when they in fact are SEEs! Geesh. SO much protest and snarkiness towards her over this, and you have been the main offender, Anndelise. Too much it reminds me of Queen Gertuade's line in Hamlet: " "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." ...

2 IEE-Ne's/SEEs and 1 EII-Fi and an IEE-Fi/SEE walk into a bar.

The barman sells the bar and vows never to walk into a pub again.

Delta NF's can be aggressive at times ...as mentioned above especially when their values are trodden on, or they are cornered or protecting others that are cornered.

True.

I don't understand how you would assume Kim is being aggressive in a supervisor way over being aggressive in a delta nf way because of values being trodden on.

My perception has been that Anndelise has been the most aggressive SEE Supervisor to EII Maritsa. I did not call her on it before because I had sympathy for her frustration (and still do) because one does find one's Supervisee very annoying and one does not naturally respect their opinion. I know. I have a Supervisee in my life whom I have had the same type feelings towards that Anndelise displays towards Maritsa. But as you mentioned Kim here I do feel I should make a distinction about levels of Auditor Aggression.

Yes, so, I sort of agree, as my impression has been that Kim has only chimed in to agree with and to back up Anndelise -- in a very regular fashion -- when Anndelise is aggressively auditing and mocking Maritsa. She is not the only one to chime in the mocking game.

I hate mocking. I hate to be mocked. I think I hate seeing someone mocked more though. And while I like to avoid having people turn on me, and that is why I did not say anything before, it has bothered me since I went on this forum the snarky way certain people mock Maritsa about the SEE typing of supposed IEEs and they way others chime in with their "yeah" and a bit of their own snark instead of just saying the truth, like, "You sound snarky, why don't you stop." Its only a secondary annoyance that what Maritsa is saying that drew their ire and their, as Shayley says below: "...abuse, attempting to manipulate or intimidate, being...critical...., ganging up on, speaking in a superior style... aggressiveness, putting them down,... attempting to gain power..." is in fact just truth, becasue they are not IEEs - and they probably are SEEs.

Which makes me wonder, what is so wrong with SEEs??? They are popular, usually. There's Elvis Presley. Marilyn Monroe. Bill Clinton, JFK, Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor. Wow! A fine line-up of well-liked, beautiful, talented people!

I think you have a bit of a skewed opinion without much foundation. I personally find no cause to doubt Kim's typing of IEE. .

Well good for you. You will make a lot more friends at 16types holding that opinion, and stating that here in this thread will help secure your place with them. Because clearly they are hostile to those of a differing opinion. Yes, you can be far more popular in this forum if you agree with Maritsa's aggressive auditors!

Maritsa, though she may mean well in a lot of situations

I think she always means well. I think its a good assumption to make that people mean well usually. Well except in obvious cases like Scapegrace below. She means mean. I definitely think you mean "well" here, though I disagree with you more than agree with you.

does have a very peculiar way of typing. I think we worked out that she types over one third of the forum SEE.

Well, to me that's just hearsay until I see the facts for myself. But just to entertain the idea that it is true, that is not automatically a freaky conclusion that there is an abundance of SEEs here. Many types don't/won't spend time here. ESEs for one. There must be others types found to be in short supply here, too. And maybe SEEs are a the type more apt to spend time here. They like to socialize, and read and write, especially in a social way, at least the ones IRL do. That this particular forum is a magnet for certain types only makes sense.

I have tried to discuss this with her using her own sources and find that she has zero method and choses whatever jumps out at her for a reason. .

Well that's strange for you to say. As an IEE, that should make perfect sense to you. Her FiNe probably works much like yours and my NeFi - she can make instant accurate evaluations, sometimes on sight, and not always be able to explain it well.

For me, I can explain it after a time. Like my new IEE(?) friend. I have the strong impression which came pretty quick in our first conversation that she is IEE. If I worked at it I could start explaining why, but I'd rather just wait, because more cogent explanations will just surface.

But don't you do the same?? Hmm. What does Maritsa type you as, anyway?

While there could be some merit to 'gut instinct' i believe Maritsa confuses this with emotional reaction to her own bias and finds it particularly difficult to be objective. Ofc we all do to some degree, it's just more obvious with some people. I still have not worked out the formula... but i'll keep trying.

Hmm. Its a weak argument you have here.

I am unsure if I should be posting this or not....please accept my good intentions before you read...
...So keep eyes open to how you may be coming across to others and making them feel - are you perhaps picking on them, attempting to exclude them, spreading falsities, sending abuse, attempting to manipulate or intimidate, being too critical or negative, ganging up on, speaking in a superior style or aggressiveness, putting them down, being too closed minded, attempting to gain power, presenting yourself as something you are not, did you perhaps have a difficult day and are taking it out on another, is there a jealousy on your part or a going overboard of defending yourself in some form etc.
...
Keep in mind that the most common form of female bullying tends to favour exclusion and mockery:
...

Thank you Shayley. But I am afraid that those who need to hear that aren't going to hear it, and beware because if they suspect you mean them, you good intentions will not be accepted.

they will never accept or understand that this was the reason behind all of our contentions and my frustrations because unlike you they can't and don't want to connect those concepts and can't and don't want to see the picture like that

Well you are likely right, if there is a pattern like with a SEE I know where I recently saw that strong-willed "can't see" and "won't see" resulting from a real choice not to see. And it doesn't yield - obvious facts are of NO consequence. Reminds me of that country song, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it!". (Had to have been a SEE!)..

because it doesn't fit their agenda which is that they want to gain acceptance for being their own version of an IEE

Except there isn't a version of IEE like that. They are IEE-imposters.

Maybe you two charmers should branch off and start your own forum since you're so misunderstood.

Aw, Scapegrace! You are so charming, I just can't stand it!

[Scapegrace]

Yep. I mean that's why I kill kittens.

[Words]

Thread full of stereotypes by people reading too much into socionics.

This is how a forum can kill the little theory, it creates a mindset of overanalysing and reading too much into things, then it needs to get more convoluted to support these insights which were wrong as a premise.

[anndelise]

@eliza
You might want to go back and reread a few pages so your "intuition" can work better.

MY argument with YOU started with me letting you know that you were wrong about SeFi valuing and seeking Ti. And then suggesting to you that you might want to review your understanding of socionics.

You were the one that then responded by making a post portraying a more intimate relationship than we could ever have, and a nicer you than you actually are. It was manipulative and felt absolutely gross to have you, of all people, call me "dear anndelise". THAT was when I got crass with you.

You are full of fake niceness, and I wasn't the only one who saw it. Squark even made a post on your fake niceness.

And then you further attempted to manipulate your image by altering your original post as if you meant Ni instead of Ti in that original post, as if your edit now means anything. And I called you on it.


KIM's argument with you, on the other hand, has been a separate issue...starting with her thinking you were being arrogant, passive-aggressive, and creating an "us-vs-them" mentality with Maritsa.

In fact, you and maritsa were discussing us in this thread as them SEE's way before I even wrote anything to Kim in this thread.

And what I DID write to Kim was to add to her post which was reminding Maritsa of Maritsa's own aggressive behavior in this forum and in the chat room. My addition was a link where I had quoted Maritsa posting to me to go die, merely because I had a) stood up for her momentarily, and b) saying that a blatant copy/paste of someone else's work deserved some credit to its original creator. This was only a small example of how over-the-top aggressive maritsa is.

Add in that yours and my first argument was over me defending an FiNe from Maritsa's attacking her...again!...because I was sick and tired of her constantly doing that.

Your post about the Fe in SeFi shows how yet again you don't understand socionics' functions, nor elements.
My post there was to show you that Fe of SeFi is functionally the same as the NeFi, so if you make a claim about SeFi's Fe...that claim applies to NeFi as well.

---

As for you relating to her, what you relate to is her e2w1ness. What you dismiss as not Delta NF are people who aren't also e2s. This is one of your major mistakes.

Another is that you have to keep telling people that you are intuitive. Like it's a big deal. Like it is something special. But saying you are intuitive does not mean you are intuitive. What it does mean, however, is that you feel it is important to inform people that you are intuitive...as if they couldn't see it for themselves. And that is yet another way that you attempt to manage your image on this forum. AND, it is part of what mikemex caught onto in his retyping of you.

This is much like how maritsa has to tell people she is an empathetic and nice person. The problem is...her actions keep saying otherwise.

All this image management you and maritsa engage in is, according to my admittedly flawed understanding of enneagram, a common aspect of e2's desire to be seen as a nice and helpful person. Add in the e1, and they also want to be seen as being people who do the right thing according to some external guideline.

Having grown up in an atmosphere of fakeness like this, knowing the monsters it often hides, knowing maritsa's aggressiveness and flat out meanness towards many others, and how she tries to manage her image...and seeing you disgustingly do the same...it's no wonder I act disgusted around you two.

You even accused Geminatronix of trying to be popular because her views didn't agree with your view. Popularity relies on concern for one's image. This shows further how much you focus on image.

But despite my own bias against it...i am not the only one who has noticed and commented on how manipulative you two are. And while you can try to lay it all on me, I do not control what other people do. I do not ask them to say things to you nor maritsa. I do not tell them to like my posts. So stop laying all of maritsa's problems on me. She was having these problems with other members long before I even knew she existed.

[SyrupDeGem]

My perception has been that Anndelise has been the most aggressive SEE Supervisor to EII Maritsa. I did not call her on it before because I had sympathy for her frustration (and still do) because one does find one's Supervisee very annoying and one does not naturally respect their opinion. I know. I have a Supervisee in my life whom I have had the same type feelings towards that Anndelise displays towards Maritsa. But as you mentioned Kim here I do feel I should make a distinction about levels of Auditor Aggression.

I doubt Anndelise is an SEE either. I'm not sure what you base this on...is it just her relationship to maritsa? Have you looked into relationships between identicals and mirrors when they go wrong? Because they can you know.

I don't know a great deal about her but from my interactions so far she seems to have integrity.

Yes, so, I sort of agree, as my impression has been that Kim has only chimed in to agree with and to back up Anndelise -- in a very regular fashion -- when Anndelise is aggressively auditing and mocking Maritsa. She is not the only one to chime in the mocking game.

Well i have not seen it from these two but i have seen the ganging up thing with maritsa and i have found it disgusting. I think though that sometimes it can be born of frustration. I have watched arguments arise, thrive and die a slow painful death... it's not easy when someone is adamant that who you identify as a person is 'incorrect'. Self typing can not really be incorrect as it is self identity. I prefer to accpet that individuals will be themselves. Rarely do i argue with someone about their type or tell them their type.

I hate mocking. I hate to be mocked. I think I hate seeing someone mocked more though. And while I like to avoid having people turn on me, and that is why I did not say anything before, it has bothered me since I went on this forum the snarky way certain people mock Maritsa about the SEE typing of supposed IEEs and they way others chime in with their "yeah" and a bit of their own snark instead of just saying the truth, like, "You sound snarky, why don't you stop." Its only a secondary annoyance that what Maritsa is saying that drew their ire and their, as Shayley says below: "...abuse, attempting to manipulate or intimidate, being...critical...., ganging up on, speaking in a superior style... aggressiveness, putting them down,... attempting to gain power..." is in fact just truth, becasue they are not IEEs - and they probably are SEEs.

Well the things here Eliza is... why do you think these people are SEE's? It's utter nonsense. It's self aggrandising which i think people find about Maritsa upsetting because there is an air of importance of being these particular types yet so few make the grade in Maritsa's eyes. Think about the population stats... something like 10% of the population are IEE and similar for SEE. We are on a theoretical discussion forum concerning personality typing. If there was any bias we would most likely find more IEE than SEE here. Yet Maritsa does genuinely type the majority of types here as SEE.

It's in her own typing thread. Just have a look. I was quite astounded by it initially. It is most certainly skewed... but why? Why does maritsa have this urge to type people in this way? That is what i find interesting.

Which makes me wonder, what is so wrong with SEEs??? They are popular, usually. There's Elvis Presley. Marilyn Monroe. Bill Clinton, JFK, Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor. Wow! A fine line-up of well-liked, beautiful, talented people!

Lol nothing. The only problem is telling people that they are not the type they identify with. If you enter into real life, you are bound to find many more SEE's, doing more real things in real time. We do have some SEE's here, they are pretty kick ass and no nonsense genuine beautiful and intelligent people from what i have seen so far. I also know many SEE's IRL, trust me they are not few and far between it's just the majority do not find this place a very productive/valuable hang out.

Well good for you. You will make a lot more friends at 16types holding that opinion, and stating that here in this thread will help secure your place with them. Because clearly they are hostile to those of a differing opinion. Yes, you can be far more popular in this forum if you agree with Maritsa's aggressive auditors!

This is incredibly passive aggressive. You are now chosing sides for me. I take none. I find the forum dynamics interesting though brutal at times. I do not need everyone to like me Eliza. I have defended Maritsa before now but i do not agree with a lot of what she says. I do though find her views very interesting and am still looking at the patterns.

I think she always means well. I think its a good assumption to make that people mean well usually. Well except in obvious cases like Scapegrace below. She means mean. I definitely think you mean "well" here, though I disagree with you more than agree with you.

Except with the passive agressive passage above. I doubt anyone means well all the time, even if it's a angry reaction in the heat of the moment, we all have the ability to be snappy.

Well, to me that's just hearsay until I see the facts for myself. But just to entertain the idea that it is true, that is not automatically a freaky conclusion that there is an abundance of SEEs here. Many types don't/won't spend time here. ESEs for one. There must be others types found to be in short supply here, too. And maybe SEEs are a the type more apt to spend time here. They like to socialize, and read and write, especially in a social way, at least the ones IRL do. That this particular forum is a magnet for certain types only makes sense.

Well, she has her own typing thread. The front page of that has all her typings of people. You will see the patterns emerge from about half way down the page. Charts have also been drawn up to show her findings because they really are quite incredible. I find it fascinating.

Well that's strange for you to say. As an IEE, that should make perfect sense to you. Her FiNe probably works much like yours and my NeFi - she can make instant accurate evaluations, sometimes on sight, and not always be able to explain it well.

And here is where you place the possibility of doubt. (1)

For me, I can explain it after a time. Like my new IEE(?) friend. I have the strong impression which came pretty quick in our first conversation that she is IEE. If I worked at it I could start explaining why, but I'd rather just wait, because more cogent explanations will just surface.

Interestingly from the brief description you gave of your friend my first personal interpretation was SEE over IEE but it may have been the way you explained it or just that you gave a brief example.

But don't you do the same?? Hmm. What does Maritsa type you as, anyway?

And here is where you open up the possiblility that maritsa types me SEE (2). She does not though, she so far holds off on typing me, because she has not had time yet or for other reasons, i'm not sure. I am prepared though, i have reckoned the odds and i shall try not to take it personally if i disagree.

Well you are likely right, if there is a pattern like with a SEE I know where I recently saw that strong-willed "can't see" and "won't see" resulting from a real choice not to see. And it doesn't yield - obvious facts are of NO consequence. Reminds me of that country song, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it!". (Had to have been a SEE!)..

Except there isn't a version of IEE like that. They are IEE-imposters.

Really though, what the hell is this? You spend a portion of your post professing you don't understand people wanting to be IEE when SEE's are so amazing then you go for the gloryfying IEE over SEE thing. That's really quite contradictory. The thing is Eliza, you 'accuse' people of trying to be IEE. Why is this so important to you?

[Pa3s]

[InvisibleJim]

Never argue with huxley.*


*unless you really want to

[Words]

Drama in Delta

[applejacks]

[Beautiful sky]

This is how you pull human beings in conflict with you:

Kim
Watching a series that's got super hot gladiators in it
Drinking
Horny
And possibly being retyped as SEE by Eliza

...Less confused?

This post was made in this thread
07-31-2013, 11:27 PM
right after Eliza made a post not even mentioning your name. You're one terrible and terribly confused human being and your actions are dismissive, unkind, indirectly yet penetratively mocking. Eliza ignored your post, trying to see and act past your prodding until your next post which was a more direct approach to her in here:

Yet another example that you don't grasp socionics nor the types.
SeFi are not Ti-seeking, nor Ti-valuing.
Try again.



You love SEE so much that you started a thread about how you think SEE are...what were those word again? I'll have to look it up.
Also how you have said something about how you've never met an SEE that didn't have psychological problems? Perhaps I can find your exact phrase for this one, or maybe you remember it.

Edited to add:
The former description is how SEE are incompetent and irresponsible.
The latter is "dysfunctional", but I will concede that you said it was "The two SEEs you know well".

08-02-2013, 02:37 PM

look back, Eliza was not addressing you until that point. This post has very little to do with the topic of this thread, it is a direct attack or address of your issues and concerns for Eliza's understanding and interpretation of SEE.

In my opinion, you are an unhappy creature and you seriously need to do something to improve the outlook of your life and maybe do something that makes you more happy and SECURE in yourself now.

[InvisibleJim]

[InvisibleJim]

[Kim]

I always view this as the great cop-out. It takes arguably less time to use people-skills and be nice the 1st time and have your posts come across more effectively. I mean honestly - you're posting on a socionics forum. You have free time. And you're taking time replying to InvisibleJim to clarify how you don't have time. I view this ongoing conflict with you and Anndelise against Eliza & Maritsa as completely and utterly pointless, and you as partly responsible for keeping it going.

I could have spent more time to wrap my criticism in cotton, but honestly, I was not abusive or overly aggressive. I mean, really? And maybe it's pointless to you, but if "have the time to post on a socionics forum," then it means something to me. For many years I have identified as an IEE and even when people have questioned my type, I have had an open mind about it. This is different because there is, in my mind, an ulterior motive to retyping ann and myself. I am not keeping things up for the sake of stirring up more drama, but because I would like to respond to assertions made about my type. Fair enough?

*Edit* - and I just want to add, it's really pathetic that I have to say something. I've gotten into so many arguments with people on here and I'm in no place to talk. If I actually have to say something, you know it's bad.

You were far more condescending in your arguments with people than anyone in this thread has been. You ridiculed your opponents and their opinions and made it very clear that you don't take them seriously. Nobody in this argument, and I include Maritsa and Eliza, has been as condescending and disrespectful as you have been in the past. So clean up on your side of the street first, please.

[InvisibleJim]

Oh my word. This thread just entered the world of the surreal

[Kim]

To clarify, I am not offended by being typed SEE as I was not offended when Gilly said he thinks I am ESE. It's ok to say "hey, have you considered type xxx." What is not ok is to talk about in terms of "she is aggressive, she desperately wants to be IEE because she doesn't understand herself, she is an imposter, I know the truth about her type, she is misguided, she wants to be popular." You can question my type, but who are you to tell me you know "the truth" about my type and label me "an imposter"?

[Kim]

Oh my word. This thread just entered the world of the surreal

It's been there all along.

[Absurd]

Never argue with huxley.*

Yup. Cease arguing, Jim.

[InvisibleJim]

You can question my type, but who are you to tell me you know "the truth" about my type and label me "an imposter"?

Welcome to t16t

If Kim is in fact your real name

[applejacks]

This used to be such a nice thread, too :[

[InvisibleJim]

This used to be such a nice thread, too :[

The bad peoples broke it. D: