If you had been on the jury (Zimmerman case)

[Kim]

in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case, what would have been your verdict?

[InvisibleJim]

I think he's guilty of murder; reading the sequence of events and certain parts of the evidence presented I just don't think a 'scuffle' was had and that he choose to pursue the child against better advice.

[Suz]

My feeling is that as the lay public, we dont REALLY know all the facts. What we know is the sensationalized info that has come through the media. There is also a lot of mob justice mentality going on out there, fueled by centuries of past injustices due to racism, which is understandable. However, the jury did deliberate quite a bit and even asked for clarifications on various charges. That, as well as the jury knowing the kind of mob mentality that is prevalent and how many enemies they were going to have, the jury still felt he was innocent. There is a possibility that the image portrayed of the victim by his family (and by the media) was actually highly skewed; if not, it would have been a clear cut case of murder, but it seems it wasn't so clear cut. Bottom line, I dont feel i can really make any judgements because I dont have all the facts. The jury had the facts, and seems like they tried hard to be fair, so the best I can do is have confidence in the jury's decision. If Zimmerman really committed premeditated murder, well then I hope he gets punished in other ways. But imagine the other point of view, race aside, if he really were trying to defend himself, and the other guy (whether black or white) was dealing drugs or something and got caught in the act and tried to muscle his way out of it by beating him to death, would it be justice to put this guy in jail for defending himself? What if it were you who got caught in the middle of this? The bag with the snacks doesnt mean much to me; he could have had drugs in there that he'd sold (or hidden), or something along those lines.

[Suz]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/201...g_to_walk.html

Prosecution's case was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the point i'm trying to make.

And in my opinion, convicting him with that doubt still in mind (especially with the compelling evidence about the bullet trajectory) would actually not be a moral thing to do. We cant make assumptions about the defendant's mentality about whether he was racist or not. If he was defending himself and is not racist, it's unfair and morally reprehensible to call him racist.

[krieger]

to decide on the level of a US state court jury member i really need more information. how much is each side offering as a bribe

[blackburry]

I really think the US court system is fucked.

cough: zimmerman, amanda knox, casey anthony...

[Hitta]

The evidence made it pretty clear that Zimmerman was on his back and Martin was beating his head into the concrete. The evidence also made it pretty clear on the way that Martin was positioned when he was shot. With all the facts that were put forth in the case, I really see no way in hell that Zimmerman should have been convicted of either murder or manslaughter; it was a rather open and shut case to be honest, most people that had been keeping up with the trial knew before the verdict even came out what it was.

People saying that Zimmerman should have listened to the response operator and think that's a reason that he should be convicted are absolutely wrong.. and quite frankly the only reason that that sort of evidence is admissible is due to the fact that the prosecution has to be allowed to piece together Zimmerman's state of mind to the jury.

[Kim]

Generally I am a bit disturbed by the fact that a grown adult can stalk a teenager with a gun without consequences. He put himself in this situation AND he has a history of violence. Trayvon Martin was walking while talking on the phone - what is suspicious about that?

[Suz]

Generally I am a bit disturbed by the fact that a grown adult can stalk a teenager with a gun without consequences. He put himself in this situation AND he has a history of violence. Trayvon Martin was walking while talking on the phone - what is suspicious about that?

Well that is the picture the media painted for us. We dont really know all the details.

[Kim]

Well that is the picture the media painted for us. We dont really know all the details.

I think we know enough details to conclude that no civilian should be legally allowed to go after an unarmed kid with a gun.

[Cyrano]

Generally I am a bit disturbed by the fact that a grown adult can stalk a teenager with a gun without consequences. He put himself in this situation AND he has a history of violence. Trayvon Martin was walking while talking on the phone - what is suspicious about that?

Kim is on the mark. We have a dead kid with Skittles, and a creep with a gun.

[Creepy-male]

We should just print a shirt for Aquagraph that has a picture of a Plato with his hand in the air and the proclamation:

"All men by their nature desire violence!"

That would sum up half his pseudo-philosophical posts on the nature of violence. Really if I wanted to explore the issue of internal conflict concerning violence, I'd watch Fight Club or something similar. At least Fight Club had two persona's battling.

The real issue is the gray line that is set up on what is manslaughter and what is self-defense. People want to make it black and white so they can feel comfortable and safe in their minds. Also people keep blaming the media. IMO the media is perfect for this, its actually not the medias fault, publicity is great for this topic and raises a pertinent social issue. I think the problem is stupidity of people resorting to their comfort zones and rationalizing their own points of view, seeing it as debate and entertainment like watching political debates and ignoring it as an opportunity to discover something deeper about society and life. This is generally the problem with the role of media in modern society, no one learns anything from the exposure of information and its all about the conflict and entertainment because they live pussy humdrum lives and seek out stimulation from their TV set. They pine so much for violence and drama because they live shitty little insignificant lives and have little capacity for envisioning the future.

Also I don't think everyone has their price, I think that's true with certain things, especially base things. But no one can be entirely bought over, if they were they would have no will, and thus their would be nothing to buy, their value as a human would be worthless. So the things that people let others buy them out on, already originate from seeds in their own being, whether that's insecurity, self-doubt, or maybe a suppressed desire, or as an alterior motive to another ends.

If a pacifist resorts to violence then that is not definitive proof that there is no such thing as pacifism that is self-discovery on the person's part about who they really are or are not. While you argue everyone has a part of them that desires violence, I'd argue there is also a part that desires peace and people are in constant internal struggle with these two aspects and sometimes one wins over the other, and sometimes others can influence each aspect. The issue of self-defense is one that socially echoes this internal struggle within every person.

[xerx]

I'd just round up 50 random people and execute them. lol @ all the fancy legalese itt

[jessica129]

No one saw exactly what happened. He may have racially profiled him, but it's not as if Zimmerman just shot him for the hell of it, there was obviously a physical fight and anyone who happened to have a gun on them during a fight could have easily done the same thing he did. There were no eye witnesses so how can you possibly convict him of murder?

[Kim]

No one saw exactly what happened. He may have racially profiled him, but it's not as if Zimmerman just shot him for the hell of it, there was obviously a physical fight and anyone who happened to have a gun on them during a fight could have easily done the same thing he did. There were no eye witnesses so how can you possibly convict him of murder?

I can see that the jury might have not been convinced beyond reasonable doubt. But Trayvon Martin was not the aggressor - he was being stalked by an armed man in the dark who could have just NOT followed this kid. Should it be legal to wave your gun at an unsuspecting kid in a dark neighborhood? At the very least, there needs to be some investigation in the "stand your ground" law and if race factors in the outcomes. It absolutely cannot be that Zimmerman goes free and she gets 20 years:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justic...nd-sentencing/

[Kim]

I don't care about the case. It's all propaganda from the major news networks.

So you don't care about any publicized trial?

[Creepy-male]

Well facts are nice, I agree, I would like to know as much facts as possible to make the right decision. But my gut says Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, murder is premeditated so manslaughter is accurate as far as my legal knowledge goes.

The argument that he was dealing drugs doesn't justify his death imo. I think killing someone should only be an option when you feel like your own life or someone you are protecting is threatened and the only option to survive is to kill the other party. My gut feeling is that the kid was probably attempting to escape and was only attacking him to subdue him so that he could escape, and not attacking to kill Zimmerman in which case based of my own value system I do not think this justifies his death. I also feel from the gut that Zimmerman was a bit of a want to be cop or neighborhood protector that wasn't in the correct mentality. He probably felt like he had something to prove, was in pursuit of his own vainglory and heroism to clean up the neighborhood, was slightly paranoid and suspicious, and didn't have the proper diplomatic understanding on how to deal with conflict and situations like he was presented with. He gave into paranoia and pursued Zimmerman in order to fulfill his vainglorious conviction of cleaning up the neighborhood and proving himself as a "protector" with little rational thought or foresight to the consequences of his actions and when confronted with an actual physical confrontation out of fear decided to kill the attacker feeling it was his right to be able to use a firearm to protect himself in a battle (that he probably instigated).

Once again, I do not have all the facts but that is my gut feeling. Although facts could persuade me differently. The argument Trey was a drug dealer and a bad kid doesn't sway me, as I think for such an act to be justified Zimmerman would have to factually show that Trey had intent to threaten his life and was not trying to subdue him in order to flee. Some will argue Zimmerman was being like a cop and couldn't allow a criminal to flee, but my value system doesn't like the idea of shooting others for resisting arrest or petty crimes like dealing drugs in a bad neighborhood because I think such a policy will create more problems than solve them.

Many police will for example have policies not to engage in high speed chases to protect civilians and instead will write the plates down and catch the perps later. A very wise policy imo, and I think Zimmerman simply lacked this wisdom, which imo should go hand in hand with packing lethal force. Traditionally something like a martial artist or soldier would have to train in discipline mentally as well as physically, even police go through this process so they don't loose their cool under pressure. Zimmerman didn't have this training and I think he spurred on something that was more than he asked for and went for the gun out of fear.

I don't like this because the global consequences of people resolving conflicts with lethal force without the proper focus mentally is well downright depressing and frightening. But maybe there are facts I don't know....

That's always a possibility and maybe they can sway my gut feeling. But either way I think the whole thing is a tragedy and could have been prevented by wiser decisions on many parties involved. Trey was a kid from a bad neighborhood, Zimmerman was older and self-appointed protector -- he should have held himself to a higher standard imo.

[Kim]

? he wrote *THE* case - what has that got to do with *ANY* trial?

I was curious if he doesn't care about trials covered by different news networks ("propaganda") in general or if it's because of a specific coverage regarding this trial that he doesn't care.

[fairylights]

I think it's ridiculous that the law favors asshole wannabe cops who shoot to kill.

[chriscorey]

Given the size and weight differences of the individuals I find it hard to believe shooting the boy was his only option scuffle or no scuffle. The kid was also unarmed if I recall correctly. I haven’t really followed the case much at all tbh… I was not on the jury and therefore couldn't say.

I was a cop shortly and from what I remember cops aren't trained to shoot unarmed teenagers....This is what the hand to hand combat training is for? Anyone seen "Cops?" there'd be so many shot people...

As it stands I disagree with the verdict from what I know.

[Kim]

Given the size and weight differences of the individuals I find it hard to believe shooting the boy was his only option scuffle or no scuffle. The kid was also unarmed if I recall correctly.

He was armed with Skittles and fruit juice and Zimmerman was explicitly told by the 911 dispatcher to not follow him, police was on their way.

[chriscorey]

He was armed with Skittles and fruit juice and Zimmerman was explicitly told by the 911 dispatcher to not follow him, police was on their way.

Thanks. I'll have to actually read about the trial perhaps.

[Finale]

Given the size and weight differences of the individuals I find it hard to believe shooting the boy was his only option scuffle or no scuffle. The kid was also unarmed if I recall correctly. I haven’t really followed the case much at all tbh… I was not on the jury and therefore couldn't say.

I was a cop shortly and from what I remember cops aren't trained to shoot unarmed teenagers....This is what the hand to hand combat training is for? Anyone seen "Cops?" there'd be so many shot people...

As it stands I disagree with the verdict from what I know.

Zimmerman was not a cop lol.... he was a neighborhood watch organizer on duty in what sounds like a crime-ridden neighborhood. He had already called the police preceding the event that night and reported that Trayvon was doing suspicious things, and looked like he was up to no good. Zimmerman was doing his job.


And there were witnesses to the incident, one who called 911 while the attack was taking place.

Seriously, if someone attacked me and was beating my head against the concrete and I had a gun, I would shoot them. It doesn't matter what race they are. People have a right to defend themselves with weapons if they are being attacked.

Zimmerman was a mix of white and hispanic.

[chriscorey]

Zimmerman was not a cop lol.... he was a neighborhood watch organizer on duty in what sounds like a crime-ridden neighborhood. He had already called the police preceding the event that night and reported that Trayvon was doing suspicious things, and looked like he was up to no good. Zimmerman was doing his job.


And there were witnesses to the incident, one who called 911 while the attack was taking place.

Seriously, if someone attacked me and was beating my head against the concrete and I had a gun, I would shoot them. It doesn't matter what race they are. People have a right to defend themselves with weapons if they are being attacked.

Zimmerman was a mix of white and hispanic.

I know he wasn’t a cop. I was mocking a couple peoples’ posts in the thread seemingly comparing him to a cop. I haven’t read much about this because I have little interest in highly publicized cases.
Two men fighting and one of them is an unarmed teenager who ends up dead. Nope. I don’t like it.

Zimmerman was a dumb pussy. Jury took pity is my guess.

Will watch video later.

[Finale]

Zimmerman was a dumb pussy.

And you don't think Trayvon was a dumb pussy? If you continually attack people by laying wait and jumping out of the bushes, and beat them up, you are taking a risk with your life. The person could be armed, and kill you. It's common sense not to attack people, and fight them. There's nothing honorable about this.

I've had police officers approach me on several occasions and ask me what I was up to, because I looked like I was engaging in suspicious activity. I was friendly and explained what I was doing. That's their job. I've had police officers point at me with guns and tell me to put my hands up, and I did what I was told. Why? Because I have the common sense not to resist or fight people who may be armed, unless it is in self-defense, in which case I will do what it takes to save my own life. My life is more important than that.

The guy feared for his life, because he couldn't get Trayvon off him, so he shot him. I would do the same thing. My life is more important than someone calling me a "pussy" because I can't and don't want to fight gangster-style. I assume that Zimmerman was untrained and generally unequipped with tools to defend himself otherwise, since he was not a police officer.

Trayvon was a stranger to Zimmerman, not a classmate. For all Zimmerman knew, he could be trying to murder him. This was not a high-school, schoolyard fight. Sounds more like an East Oakland projects situation than a small-suburb teenage ruckus.

As far as his height and weight:

The initial police report from the night of the shooting lists Martin's height as 6'0" (1.83 m) and weight as 160 lb (73 kg). Zimmerman estimated Martin's height at 5'11" to 6'2" on the night of the shooting. The morning after the shooting, an autopsy found that Martin's body was 5'11" (1.80 m) long and weighed 158 lb (72 kg).[14][15] Other values for Martin's height of 6'2" (1.88 m) and 6'3" (1.91 m), and weight of no more than 150 lb (68 kg), were reported as being given by Martin's family.

And he was a football player.

[chriscorey]

And you don't think Trayvon was a dumb pussy? If you continually attack people by laying wait and jumping out of the bushes, and beat them up, you are taking a risk with your life. The person could be armed, and kill you. It's common sense not to attack people, and fight them. There's nothing honorable about this.

I've had police officers approach me on several occasions and ask me what I was up to, because I looked like I was engaging in suspicious activity. I was friendly and explained what I was doing. That's their job. I've had police officers point at me with guns and tell me to put my hands up, and I did what I was told. Why? Because I have the common sense not to resist or fight people who may be armed, unless it is in self-defense, in which case I will do what it takes to save my own life. My life is more important than that.

The guy feared for his life, because he couldn't get Trayvon off him, so he shot him. I would do the same thing. My life is more important than someone calling me a "pussy" because I can't and don't want to fight gangster-style. I assume that Zimmerman was untrained and generally unequipped with tools to defend himself otherwise, since he was not a police officer.

Trayvon was a stranger to Zimmerman, not a classmate. For all Zimmerman knew, he could be trying to murder him. This was not a high-school, schoolyard fight. Sounds more like an East Oakland projects situation than a small-suburb teenage ruckus.

As far as his height and weight:

The initial police report from the night of the shooting lists Martin's height as 6'0" (1.83 m) and weight as 160 lb (73 kg). Zimmerman estimated Martin's height at 5'11" to 6'2" on the night of the shooting. The morning after the shooting, an autopsy found that Martin's body was 5'11" (1.80 m) long and weighed 158 lb (72 kg).[14][15] Other values for Martin's height of 6'2" (1.88 m) and 6'3" (1.91 m), and weight of no more than 150 lb (68 kg), were reported as being given by Martin's family.

And he was a football player.

Maybe they were both dumb pussies Finale and unfortunately the older and experienced one had a gun. Why were they fighting in the first place? Why didn't Zimmerman just wait for the police to get there? Are you saying the kid wasn't fearing for his life?

[Kim]

I don't think he was a drug dealer. I think one time cops found an empty baggy of weed, but that's about it as far as I know. I am pretty sure he didn't have anything on him that night.

[Suz]

I don't think he was a drug dealer. I think one time cops found an empty baggy of weed, but that's about it as far as I know. I am pretty sure he didn't have anything on him that night.

I just offered that hypothesis as a possibility. My point is that him carrying a bag of snacks doesn't rule out his part in aggression nor any wrongdoings he may have been involved in that could have led to the confrontation. We just dont know.

Aside from that, i'm sure the fact that there was a baggy of weed in there did not help the victim's case. That changes the scenario from him having just stopped by a 7-11 for snacks to him doing something he shouldn't have been doing (was he smoking the weed, was he selling the weed, who did he buy the weed from, was he stealing to pay for the weed, etc), and begs the question, what ELSE was he doing there, and gives more credibility to the defendant's story. If he was smoking the weed, it's possible he was abusing another drug (like crack/cocaine) that could have made him unusually aggressive, again lending credibility to the defendant's story. IDK whether any substances were found in his body during post-mortem forensic analysis, but even this small factor already introduces a large element of reasonable doubt and makes the case not so clear cut.

[InvisibleJim]

To be honest it sounds like the authorities are closing ranks because they know that if they find a security guard guilty then it would open up many other cases of police on civilian killings/brutality which have been brushed under the carpet.

One does not simply end up in a brawl with someone who is heading directly home after purchasing product. The young mans goals was to consume the product.

[Kim]

No no no, the baggie of weed was found at another time and he was suspended from school. This had nothing to do with this case and I don't know many 17-year-olds, to be honest, who did not at one time smoke weed (myself included). Xerx, they tested the residue in the bag I suppose (you can usually still smell it).

George Zimmerman was arrested in the past for resisting arrest with violence, which was reduced to resisting arrest without violence when he agreed to enter an alcohol problem. He also had a restraining order against him because of domestic violence.

Trayvon Martin was walking down the street, talking on the phone and holding a bag of skittles and fruit juice. Why would anyone think he is a drug dealer?

[Suz]

No no no, the baggie of weed was found at another time and he was suspended from school. This had nothing to do with this case and I don't know many 17-year-olds, to be honest, who did not at one time smoke weed (myself included). Xerx, they tested the residue in the bag I suppose (you can usually still smell it).

Ohhh ok. But this still did not help the victims case.
{rant} I was a 17 year old that never smoked weed, most of my friends didn't either. I dont understand what the big deal is, and why someone would risk their reputation and public record just to puff on that stuff. What the hell is so freaking special about weed?? {/rant}

I think what ultimately made the case was what hitta mentioned, about the positioning and the bullet trajectory. I dont know all the details of the case, i wasn't following closely, but given that element of huge doubt, in my opinion, ethically and morally, it's better to set a guilty man free than to convict an innocent man, and i think ultimately this was the equation that the jury was struggling with. Like i said, if zimmerman is truly guilty, he'll be punished by his own demons. If he is innocent though, and goes to prison for murder, well, i dont think anyone would have an easy conscience if that were to turn out to be the case.

[Hitta]

There is really no evidence of this case being murder, and anyone suggesting that he should have been convicted is being ridiculous. Whether or not Zimmerman is at fault or not, there's really no evidence to support that. All the evidence supports is Martin being on Zimmerman bashing his head into the cement, and that Zimmerman fired from a threatened position. If you want to get into the whole racism thing, Zimmerman literally took a black girl to the prom in high school. He helped in several community projects that involved mostly black kids. The prosecution had no case at all, zilch, other than thousands of people screaming racism. I mean it's kind of absurd really to even think about this, you have famous people on twitter screaming for the deaths of jury members even though they just did their job.

[Capitalist Pig]

[Kim]

Oh shut up!

[InvisibleJim]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1386764.html - No blood/bruises on Zimmerman, police cctv footage shows.

In other news, I always read Russia today when I want to find out what's really happening in the UK/US. I always read CNN/BBC when I want to find out whats happening in Russia/China.

[Hitta]

Yeah. If I *were* to care about the case, I would be skeptical of the 'evidence' the defense provided to prove Zimmerman was beaten up.

I mean, at least from my itty-bitty non-intuitive sensor perspective - just seeing some pictures of Zimmerman, he looks to be a fairly big, physically strong, possibly 200+ pound man, and the idea that he could be beaten up by a 17-year old sounds pretty ridiculous.

He put on like 100 lbs after the he was charged, he was a fairly skinny person prior to the incident.

[rat1]

He's not a racist... if you knew anything about this case, you'd know he's not a racist. He sued a police department for beating up a black homeless man and won the case.... He went to the prom with a black girl....
He isn't guilty of murder or manslaughter, he's innocent. Defending yourself from someone who is beating the living shit out of you and has stated they are goiing to kill you is not manslaughter. I'm glad the jury was sane enough to agree.
This is actually an open and shut case. It's been turned into a racial issue by the media. It's really a media issue.

[rat1]

But Trayvon Martin was not the aggressor - he was being stalked by an armed man in the dark who could have just NOT followed this kid.

It is not illegal to follow and watch someone who is walking on a road. That is public domain and Zimmerman is allowed to follow and watch him all he wants. That's what being on the neighborhood watch means - following and watching suspicious people. It is illegal, however, to physically engage somene, break their nose, pound their face into pavement, beat them senseless, and then reach for their gun in a self stated attempt to kill them. In the eyes of the law Martin was the aggressor, not Zimmerman.

Thank God people must make it through lawschool before becoming judges.

[InvisibleJim]

I'd be more skeptical of some of the posters here who can't use google and are forming opinion based on hearsay.

Do your homework slackers.

[Hitta]

There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was hostile. When Martin was shot, forensic evidence shows that Zimmerman was in a defensive position. Audio experts universally came to the conclusion that Zimmerman said "fucking punks" and not "fucking coons". The things you keep saying Kim are highly speculative.