Si/Fe MBTI vs Fi/Se Socionics
Why does the Si and Fe functions in MBTI(ISFJ) seem to describe a person the same way as Socionics Fi and Se(ISFj) does? They seem similar if not identical. Why is that? Do the functions have different definitions in each theory or is it just a matter of perspective?
descriptions of both generally paint a picture of someone who is emotional and traditional and organized but beyond those sort of surface stereotypes i don't see a whole lot of similarity. what in particular is it that you're seeing; can you narrow down what you mean by "the same way?"
fyi ALL of this shit is totally about perspective.
MBTI really doesn't convert well into socionics. Also which description?
Also for the introverts in MBTI, there is a function arrangement which isn't explained in MBTI and is totally different from socionics.
I guess when I read on line the different descriptions of socionics ISFj it comes across like those of the ISFJ in MBTI, even though the functions are different.
http://www.socionics.com/prof/isfj.htm
and
http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ESI-ISFj/
I just can't help seeing ISFJ in those decriptions.
Welcome to socionics.Originally Posted by Jimmers
Thanks! I've been here before, but I left for awhile out of frustration.
The sensing functions are defined a little different, with Se taking on an aspect of authority and insubordenation. This changes Se users from hedonist to critics, managers, or inspectors.
Si takes on a hedonist aspect, but is technically called judiciousness, and this has the effect of changing them from "traditionalist" to people with a relaxed and democratic flavor to their behavior.
WOW my spelling sucks today! I will edit this later.
Socionics -
the16types.info
As Phaedrus rightly pointed out, the MBTI descriptions often paint the same underlying types associated with the socionics descriptions, thus they fumble around the functional ones (where Si is "the tradition function" since all SJ possess Si). So yes, the functions have different "descriptions", because MBTI functions are designed in order to fit the empirical behavior of people who tested as a given type.
It's also very suburban-american-woman-in-her-50s...i think MBTI ISFJ is more E1-like.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia.
So what are the socionics functions designed to do or be?
MBTI, a system designed through empirical basis and Socionics a system designed on a logical basis...
...
Whereas MBTI is a typing system designed to inclusively type all people, Socionics is clearly a typing system designed to exclusively type all people...
...
Despite being in all things mostly equal unless you can't read or you have indoctrinated in 16typeism because they are equally delusional...
...
So different everyone should see it...
...
Socionics as pure as the master race...
...
Oh god, it's happening again.
...
Fuck it.
They're very similar to those described by Jung, basically that was Ashura's inspiration. With a special twist regarding the creative expression of a given function, which was not detailed by Jung.
If that bears any relationship to any underlying psychological phenomenon...I can't say either, and I do not claim.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Providing it is the way you say it is, MBTI INFP would be IEI, MBTI ISFP would be SEI, MBTI INFJ would be EII. MBTI INTP would be ILI and so on. Not to mention the extraverted ones. And again, providing it were so there isn't really any point in arguing over MBTI versus Socionics. One would just focus on one of them to get their typing, for the other is going to/might produce a different result but not necessarily.
Providing I read you the way you wanted me to read you of course.
Hmm...
Last edited by Absurd; 05-08-2013 at 10:45 PM.
MBTI doesn't maintain any consistency because it doesn't define the functions beforehand. This means that any personality can be molded into any of the functions - if you read a lot of type descriptions you will realize that the MBTI functions aren't ever properly categorized and compared, and there are inconsistencies and wayy too much overlap.
For example: Description of ISTP Ti:
As an ISTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. [...] ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. They're good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although they're not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They like to take things apart and see the way they work. ISTPs have an adventuresome spirit. They are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing, etc. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to "do their own thing". Their sense of adventure and desire for constant action makes ISTPs prone to becoming bored rather quickly. ISTPs are loyal to their causes and beliefs, and are firm believers that people should be treated with equity and fairness. Although they do not respect the rules of the "System", they follow their own rules and guidelines for behavior faithfully. They will not take part in something which violates their personal laws. ISTPs are extremely loyal and faithful to their "brothers". ISTPs like and need to spend time alone, because this is when they can sort things out in their minds most clearly. They absorb large quantities of impersonal facts from the external world, and sort through those facts, making judgments, when they are alone. ISTPs are action-oriented people. They like to be up and about, doing things. They are not people to sit behind a desk all day and do long-range planning. Adaptable and spontaneous, they respond to what is immediately before them. They usually have strong technical skills, and can be effective technical leaders. They focus on details and practical things. They have an excellent sense of expediency and grasp of the details which enables them to make quick, effective decisions. ISTPs avoid making judgments based on personal values - they feel that judgments and decisions should be made impartially, based on the fact. They are not naturally tuned in to how they are affecting others. [...] ISTPs have a lot of natural ability which makes them good at many different kinds of things. However, they are happiest when they are centered in action-oriented tasks which require detailed logical analysis and technical skill. They take pride in their ability to take the next correct step.
Now an INTP description:
As an INTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. [..] INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions. They typically are so strongly driven to turn problems into logical explanations, that they live much of their lives within their own heads, and may not place as much importance or value on the external world. Their natural drive to turn theories into concrete understanding may turn into a feeling of personal responsibility to solve theoretical problems, and help society move towards a higher understanding.
INTPs value knowledge above all else. Their minds are constantly working to generate new theories, or to prove or disprove existing theories. They approach problems and theories with enthusiasm and skepticism, ignoring existing rules and opinions and defining their own approach to the resolution. They seek patterns and logical explanations for anything that interests them. They're usually extremely bright, and able to be objectively critical in their analysis. They love new ideas, and become very excited over abstractions and theories. They love to discuss these concepts with others. They may seem "dreamy" and distant to others, because they spend a lot of time inside their minds musing over theories. They hate to work on routine things - they would much prefer to build complex theoretical solutions, and leave the implementation of the system to others. They are intensely interested in theory, and will put forth tremendous amounts of time and energy into finding a solution to a problem with has piqued their interest. INTPs do not like to lead or control people. They're very tolerant and flexible in most situations, unless one of their firmly held beliefs has been violated or challenged, in which case they may take a very rigid stance. The INTP is likely to be very shy when it comes to meeting new people. [...] The INTP has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings. They strive constantly to achieve logical conclusions to problems, and don't understand the importance or relevance of applying subjective emotional considerations to decisions. For this reason, INTPs are usually not in-tune with how people are feeling, and are not naturally well-equiped to meet the emotional needs of others.
[...] For the INTP, it is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others, but the INTP is not naturally likely to tailor the truth so as to explain it in an understandable way to others. The INTP may be prone to abandoning a project once they have figured it out, moving on to the next thing. It's important that the INTP place importance on expressing their developed theories in understandable ways. In the end, an amazing discovery means nothing if you are the only person who understands it.
The INTP is usually very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity and security. They usually have complex characters, and may tend to be restless and temperamental. They are strongly ingenious, and have unconventional thought patterns which allows them to analyze ideas in new ways. Consequently, a lot of scientific breakthroughs in the world have been made by the INTP.
The INTP is at his best when he can work on his theories independently. When given an environment which supports his creative genius and possible eccentricity, the INTP can accomplish truly remarkable things. These are the pioneers of new thoughts in our society.
...Now although it may seem similar, never once did it explain how it was Ti (as opposed to Te, or Fi for personal autonomy, or Si for concrete factual intake for example) which caused any of the personality traits. The general formula is:
[empirical observation + some usage of the word logic + an emphasis on the abstract vs. the concrete]
Last edited by Dionysus; 05-09-2013 at 02:47 AM.
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