Videotype Me!!!

[glam]

dolphin, come on. hkkmr was not trying to "overshadow" anyone; his intentions are being completely misinterpreted here. he has already said this, yet you continue to assign false ideas of his motivations to his behavior.

being called a bot is pretty dehumanizing, and he doesn't deserve it.

[Park]

anyway please don't get worked up guys no one here wants to fight, or had any ill intentions. i think a lot of things are being misinterpreted here via online communication that may not have been if this had happened in real life.

Ironically, I interpret certain people much better/easier online.

[Gilly]

Ummm...hkkmr is kind of a bot in some ways, I don't think having that observation nor disagreeing/arguing with him is indicative of being Fi ego.

[Park]

I agree with dolphin, btw.

[Park]

O hai Gilly willy.

[Creepy-female]

dolphin, come on. hkkmr was not trying to "overshadow" anyone; his intentions are being completely misinterpreted here. he has already said this, yet you continue to assign false ideas of his motivations to his behavior.

being called a bot is pretty dehumanizing, and he doesn't deserve it.

Did I say he was a bot? No, I said, "It's like arguing with a bot". And I maintain that. I have no desire to judge Hkkmr's ultimate humanity or moral character, lol.

Did I say he was trying to overshadow anyone? No, I said, when debating with him, he doesn't listen to the other person. I'm not saying shit about his motivations. He could desire to plant the world with daisies or start the next Nazi regime - that's not my point. My point is what he's actually doing here, in this thread, is predictable, has happened in threads and discussions before, and is no reason for Baby to question himself.

[Park]

Time for some jaaaazzzzzzz.

Something a bit different this time.

[mu4]

Did I say he was a bot? No, I said, "It's like arguing with a bot". And I maintain that. I have no desire to judge Hkkmr's ultimate humanity or moral character, lol.

Did I say he was trying to overshadow anyone? No, I said, when debating with him, he doesn't listen to the other person. I'm not saying shit about his motivations. He could desire to plant the world with daisies or start the next Nazi regime - that's not my point. My point is what he's actually doing here, in this thread, is predictable, has happened in threads and discussions before, and is no reason for Baby to question himself.

I'm just expressing a opinion and I even stated it might not be important. I can and do listen to other people, I might not be the greatest listener but I do listen, it's just has to be presented in the right way.

Anyways, how would you feel if I said, "Debating dolphin is like arguing with a retard." I don't believe that but, would that hurt you?

I'm going to leave this thread as it's just gotten way too flamey.

[fen]

I would say some creatives actually try to be agreeable with everyone. XEI can be very much like that, I appreciate that about them and it's one of the traits that I most like. They generally like me when I am doing something which is not in their nature to do and that is to be quite disagreeable to others. This is probably the trait I most admire about XEI, their ability to seemingly deal with everyone in a diplomatic fashion.

I think one example is Glam who is very agreeable to almost everyone she meets, often imo way too much. She's diplomatic to people she likes, people she doesn't like, etc. Starfall is also very much like this, and she reminds me of other IEI's I know as well, such as Esper.

What about enneagram 9s of different types? I think an IEE E9 would be just as agreeable as an Fe-creative.

I'm no Fe-type, but I'm very agreeable, almost to a fault.

[Animal]

Okay, I have to go to a study group in about ten minutes, but I jsut wanted to posit my own interpretation of what's going on here:

1.) hkkmr has the weakest/most unvalued ever. He seems to have little concept of or appreciation for how he comes across to other people and how other people will react emotionally to his manner of communication. This is dynamic. As dolphin noted, it has nothing to do with a static evaluation of hkkmr's character, but rather the fact that he seems to be mildly socially retarded.

2.) What he thinks of as -creative (being diplomatic, smoothing over the ruffles of interaction) is actually not. I have no idea WTF it is, but I doubt any --creative would really relish the thought being thought as "agreeable to everyone." -types like to be appreciated for the range, flexibility, and nuance of their expressive repertoire. Actually, it seems like what hkkmr appreciates is what WorkaholicsAnon was trying to do upthread.

3.) I'm leaning towards EXTj for him and, based on his focus on stuff, LSE.

[fen]

Okay, I have to go to a study group in about ten minutes, but I jsut wanted to posit my own interpretation of what's going on here:

1.) hkkmr has the weakest/most unvalued ever. He seems to have little concept of or appreciation for how he comes across to other people and how other people will react emotionally to his manner of communication. This is dynamic. As dolphin noted, it has nothing to do with a static evaluation of hkkmr's character, but rather the fact that he seems to be mildly socially retarded.

2.) What he thinks of as -creative (being diplomatic, smoothing over the ruffles of interaction) is actually not. I have no idea WTF it is, but I doubt any --creative would really relish the thought being thought as "agreeable to everyone." -types like to be appreciated for the range, flexibility, and nuance of their expressive repertoire. Actually, it seems like what hkkmr appreciates is what WorkaholicsAnon was trying to do upthread.

3.) I'm leaning towards EXTj for him and, based on his focus on stuff, LSE.

I see hkkmr as Ej, Te type myself.

[Radio]

3.) I'm leaning towards EXTj for him and, based on his focus on stuff, LSE.

ew gross, why

[Radio]

hkkmr is not my dual in a million years

[glam]

Did I say he was a bot? No, I said, "It's like arguing with a bot". And I maintain that. I have no desire to judge Hkkmr's ultimate humanity or moral character, lol.

use of a simile ("it's like") doesn't suddenly invalidate the dehumanizing aspect of what you said. ultimately, saying things like that, you ARE judging him that way. likening someone or their behavior to a "bot" is basically saying they have no capacity to act, feel, or behave like a human. it's dehumanizing and hurtful.

Did I say he was trying to overshadow anyone? No, I said, when debating with him, he doesn't listen to the other person. I'm not saying shit about his motivations. He could desire to plant the world with daisies or start the next Nazi regime - that's not my point. My point is what he's actually doing here, in this thread, is predictable, has happened in threads and discussions before, and is no reason for Baby to question himself.

fine, but you did say "This is more of a heads up to Baby that he doesn't have to let his insights in this thread be overshadowed by your ego." the implication is still there, that you are saying that hkkmr doesn't care about listening to other people because of his "ego", and because of his supposed bot-like behavior.

i know hkkmr well and he always listens to the other person's side when he is in a discussion. the problem here i believe, is not that hkkmr doesn't listen - it's more that some people don't *feel* listened to by him. and then they react in frustration, often accompanied by personal insults, like we see in this thread.

[Creepy-female]

I'm just expressing a opinion and I even stated it might not be important. I can and do listen to other people, I might not be the greatest listener but I do listen, it's just has to be presented in the right way.

That doesn't negate my point. Someone not presenting something to you in the "right way" does not make them Fi. Baby's beef with you (and I'm not saying it's personal, more like intellectual beef, whatever went down re Jazz) does not make him Fi.

Anyways, how would you feel if I said, "Debating dolphin is like arguing with a retard." I don't believe that but, would that hurt you?

I'd certainly feel more affinity for you than I would being on the receiving end of one of your walls of text.

[Animal]

hkkmr is not my dual in a million years

Radio, FWIW, I see you in an quadra, and probably LII.

[aixelsyd]

Super Egos clashing, haha. Baby's opinion seems, and yes I am rationalizing, more about him being more interested in experiencing more things within an allotted time, which seems typical of Se/Ni valuing. I admit that if most of the time I was spending with people I hardly or never see in person was spent on something else than doing things together and going out and being on the move, I would feel like the time was wasted.

Nothing said here at all suggests EII over IEI. It's just picking at miniscule details and making a lot out of nothing. It's just a difference in personal preference. And Baby is even being super NICE and charming about it. It's just taking one little thing and ignoring the rest of the package of Baby that suggests IEI over EII, imo.

[mu4]

Okay, I have to go to a study group in about ten minutes, but I jsut wanted to posit my own interpretation of what's going on here:

1.) hkkmr has the weakest/most unvalued ever. He seems to have little concept of or appreciation for how he comes across to other people and how other people will react emotionally to his manner of communication. This is dynamic. As dolphin noted, it has nothing to do with a static evaluation of hkkmr's character, but rather the fact that he seems to be mildly socially retarded.

So instead of being a character issue, I'm now mildly socially retarded.

2.) What he thinks of as -creative (being diplomatic, smoothing over the ruffles of interaction) is actually not. I have no idea WTF it is, but I doubt any --creative would really relish the thought being thought as "agreeable to everyone." -types like to be appreciated for the range, flexibility, and nuance of their expressive repertoire. Actually, it seems like what hkkmr appreciates is what WorkaholicsAnon was trying to do upthread.

3.) I'm leaning towards EXTj for him and, based on his focus on stuff, LSE.

I don't think all creatives want to be agreeable to everyone, only some and they seem to have a ability for it that I don't have.

As far as LSE, it's kinda of weird since I have so much communication difficulties with so many self typed egos.

[Gilly]

I almost want to go with this hkkmr as LSE thing.

[mu4]

I almost want to go with this hkkmr as LSE thing.

It would make snatching up April and Agarina more fun. But I happen to get along fantastically with most self-typed IEIs.

[Creepy-female]

use of a simile ("it's like") doesn't suddenly invalidate the dehumanizing aspect of what you said. ultimately, saying things like that, you ARE judging him that way. likening someone or their behavior to a "bot" is basically saying they have no capacity to act, feel, or behave like a human. it's dehumanizing and hurtful.

Hkkmr's character is not being slandered here. He IS engaging in highly annoying behaviors that don't endear him to quite a few other human beings. So he gets flak for it. He's not a babe in the woods.

fine, but you did say "This is more of a heads up to Baby that he doesn't have to let his insights in this thread be overshadowed by your ego." the implication is still there, that you are saying that hkkmr doesn't care about listening to other people because of his "ego", and because of his supposed bot-like behavior.

That's still a pretty big inference there. I don't think hkkmr doesn't care, I think he's actually simply not able to engage when in the grips of his ego.

i know hkkmr well and he always listens to the other person's side when he is in a discussion. the problem here i believe, is not that hkkmr doesn't listen - it's more that some people don't *feel* listened to by him. and then they react in frustration, often accompanied by personal insults, like we see in this thread.

Or he *feels* personally insulted, when it's actually a fair observation.

[mu4]

Or he *feels* personally insulted, when it's actually a fair observation.

I'm hurt, like most normal human beings would be, if they were compared to a robot, called socially retarded and other things.

[mu4]

That doesn't negate my point. Someone not presenting something to you in the "right way" does not make them Fi. Baby's beef with you (and I'm not saying it's personal, more like intellectual beef, whatever went down re Jazz) does not make him Fi.

I didn't even mean that, I'm talking communication incompatibility in general. Some people just have a hard time communicating with each other, and some people can. Call it socionics, call it whatever.

[Creepy-female]

I'm hurt, like most normal human beings would be, if they were compared to a robot, called socially retarded and other things.

I'm sorry you're hurt. That doesn't negate my point.

[glam]

Hkkmr's character is not being slandered here. He IS engaging in highly annoying behaviors that don't endear him to quite a few other human beings. So he gets flak for it. He's not a babe in the woods.

i never said he was. but he's certainly being treated like a pariah here, as if he is the only one here who has somehow done something wrong. which isn't the case, because you and Baby have doled out personal insults in his direction.

That's still a pretty big inference there. I don't think hkkmr doesn't care, I think he's actually simply not able to engage when in the grips of his ego.

sigh, it's not about his ego. because he is an opinionated person who does not so easily concede his point, some people conclude that he is unable to listen or "engage", as you put it. i am trying to tell you that that is not the case.

Or he *feels* personally insulted, when it's actually a fair observation.

no, calling them "fair observations" is just rationalizing your name-calling. cut the bullshit please, i am not buying it.

[Creepy-female]

i never said he was. but he's certainly being treated like a pariah here, as if he is the only one here who has somehow done something wrong. which isn't the case, because you and Baby have doled out personal insults in his direction.

I don't buy the "everyone's human, so you have no business voicing your dislike of Hkkmr's behavior" thing. Yes, he's getting social criticism. Yes, he's being made fun of. There's also a reason for that. I don't think anyone here has slandered Hkkmr. I believe most of Baby's quips are tongue in cheek frustration. Yes, they have some truth to them. No, they're not meant to be taken hyper literally.

sigh, it's not about his ego. because he is an opinionated person who does not so easily concede his point, some people conclude that he is unable to listen or "engage", as you put it. i am trying to tell you that that is not the case.

I see Baby here putting effort forth here to communicate, and yes, I see Hkkmr responding to it like a brick. If Hkkmr engages with you, great. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a pattern here of being difficult to communicate with.

no, calling them "fair observations" is just rationalizing your name-calling. cut the bullshit please, i am not buying it.

No, sidelining valid points in favor of poor Hkkmr's hurt feelings is a total copout. I'm not buying it.

[mu4]

I don't buy the "everyone's human, so you have no business voicing your dislike of Hkkmr's behavior" thing. Yes, he's getting social criticism. Yes, he's being made fun of. There's also a reason for that. I don't think anyone here has slandered Hkkmr. I believe most of Baby's quips are tongue in cheek frustration. Yes, they have some truth to them. No, they're not meant to be taken hyper literally.

I see Baby here putting effort forth here to communicate, and yes, I see Hkkmr responding to it like a brick. If Hkkmr engages with you, great. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a pattern here of being difficult to communicate with.

No, sidelining valid points in favor of poor Hkkmr's hurt feelings is a total copout. I'm not buying it.

I've made a lot of effort to communicate, I've even made the effort to say that I might be wrong. Ultimately my opinion is my opinion, and it's not going to change for a while. I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion, I just want to express myself as a free-thinking person does. People don't like it, that's fine, people call me names that's fine. I don't like being called a robot or socially retarded, and some people would absolutely disagree with those statements about me.

Common sense basically says you can't communicate with everyone, but you can try, and I do try and I do make the effort and if I'm a brick it might be because I don't value a perspective or certain perspectives.

[Creepy-female]

I've made a lot of effort to communicate, I've even made the effort to say that I might be wrong. Ultimately my opinion is my opinion, and it's not going to change for a while. I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion, I just want to express myself as a free-thinking person does. People don't like it, that's fine, people call me names that's fine. I don't like being called a robot or socially retarded, and some people would absolutely disagree with those statements about me.

Common sense basically says you can't communicate with everyone, but you can try, and I do try and I do make the effort and if I'm a brick it might be because I don't value a perspective or certain perspectives.

Sure, but you're not the only who has made effort to communicate here. And you not valuing people's perspectives does not necessarily make them Fi.

[Park]

[glam]

I don't buy the "everyone's human, so you have no business voicing your dislike of Hkkmr's behavior" thing. Yes, he's getting social criticism. Yes, he's being made fun of. There's also a reason for that. I don't think anyone here has slandered Hkkmr. I believe most of Baby's quips are tongue in cheek frustration. Yes, they have some truth to them. No, they're not meant to be taken hyper literally.

I see Baby here putting effort forth here to communicate, and yes, I see Hkkmr responding to it like a brick. If Hkkmr engages with you, great. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a pattern here of being difficult to communicate with.

re: the bolded: i NEVER said that or meant to imply it, nor would i. i believe very strongly that people should say what they think, and that they should have the freedom to do so. please do not put words in my mouth.

i am not denying the fact he conflicts with some people; i already acknowledged that people have a hard time communicating with him - that much is obvious to anyone following this thread. i am trying to explain why, and make clear that he does not purposefully try to be a "brick"; in fact, i am sure he desires the opposite, because i know he likes to discuss and bounce ideas off of other people.

i have a problem with the way people are personally insulting hkkmr, the justification for it being their communication difficulties with him. hkkmr didn't personally insult or attack anyone, yet many people here have done so, and you are arguing that it is justified for people to do so, because of their frustration with his behavior.

i find this reasoning to be rather immature and vindictive, and it only causes more harm than good. basically what is being done here is that negative social pressure is being applied to hkkmr to "punish" him for his actions. i don't believe he deserves this, and i find it appalling that this response to his behavior has (seemingly) been so readily sanctioned by several people in this thread. in my opinion, it is unfair and unjust.

No, sidelining valid points in favor of poor Hkkmr's hurt feelings is a total copout. I'm not buying it.

i'm not sidelining valid points - i am telling you why you are wrong about the reasons behind hkkmr's behavior, and that i don't believe hkkmr's behavior suddenly makes it okay for people to trash him. your "valid point" is basically: "people can't communicate with hkkmr, therefore we get to insult him."

also, yes, i am also pointing out that the things you have said about him are hurtful and unnecessary. and i will continue to do so, because as soon as you started insulting him, you were no longer innocent and blameless in this argument. get off your high horse.

[Park]

You guys enjoy arguing over nothing, wow. Are you both on your periods? Chillax a bit.

[Absurd]

You guys enjoy arguing over nothing, wow. Are you both on your periods? Chillax a bit.

I'm on my period as well.

[Creepy-female]

re: the bolded: i NEVER said that or meant to imply it, nor would i. i believe very strongly that people should say what they think, and that they should have the freedom to do so. please do not put words in my mouth.

i am not denying the fact he conflicts with some people; i already acknowledged that people have a hard time communicating with him - that much is obvious to anyone following this thread. i am trying to explain why, and make clear that he does not purposefully try to be a "brick"; in fact, i am sure he desires the opposite, because i know he likes to discuss and bounce ideas off of other people.

i have a problem with the way people are personally insulting hkkmr, the justification for it being their communication difficulties with him. hkkmr didn't personally insult or attack anyone, yet many people here have done so, and you are arguing that it is justified for people to do so, because of their frustration with his behavior.

i find this reasoning to be rather immature and vindictive, and it only causes more harm than good. basically what is being done here is that negative social pressure is being applied to hkkmr to "punish" him for his actions. i don't believe he deserves this, and i find it appalling that this response to his behavior has (seemingly) been so readily sanctioned by several people in this thread. in my opinion, it is unfair and unjust.

i'm not sidelining valid points - i am telling you why you are wrong about the reasons behind hkkmr's behavior, and that i don't believe hkkmr's behavior suddenly makes it okay for people to trash him. your "valid point" is basically: "people can't communicate with hkkmr, therefore we get to insult him."

also, yes, i am also pointing out that the things you have said about him are hurtful and unnecessary. and i will continue to do so, because as soon as you started insulting him, you were no longer innocent and blameless in this argument. get off your high horse.

I would say you are the one putting words in people's mouths. You're projecting that people are "punishing" Hkkmr. I don't believe my posts have been vindictive and I don't believe Baby's have been either. The last time I had an serious debate with him, he did the exact same thing that he did to Baby here. It's not "vindictive" to point out his patterns of behavior. It's not "vindictive" to refuse to rescind a point in the face of "you hurt my feelings". That seems a pretty convenient way to absolve yourself of the frustration you've caused other people, lol. It's like dealing with a large baby. If he can't take being called a "bot", that's his problem. I'm not innocent or blameless, but I'm not being an asshole either, so get a reality check. You having conversations with Hkkmr in other places or knowing other people that have talked to him successfully does not negate what he's doing here. Baby in particular mentioned that he seemed fine in real life, and an "autistic blowhard" on the internet, which seemed somewhat tongue in cheek, but also came at the end of a text filled debate. And yes I perceived it was frustrating for Baby. Debating with Hkkmr is like trying to catch a ornery grasshopper. That's made of steel. Basically a bot. Lol.

[mu4]

Anyways, it matters little what people call me but I'm still going to point it out. Obviously someone feels frustrated by what I have said so they might want to hurt me back, I don't mean it, maybe that's the way of the world. I'm a big boy and it's OK to be rough with me.

Maybe it's just a communication thing and nobody's intentionally trying to hurt or frustrate anyone, I'll assume that for now.

[Animal]

Hey everyone. Thank you for all this awesome discussion. I actually loved the last two pages, lol. Yes, it's heated and yes, it got kind of personal. But I think some really important things are coming out and being said, and I'd rather let them play out and deal with them as they come, instead of just sweeping them under the rug with soothing jazz music (sorry Parkster ), where they will simmer and ferment.

@hkkmr :
Okay, I admit that was rather mean, lol. I'm sorry I called you all those things. I didn't intend to hurt you, just get your attention, shake you up a bit. You seem so resolute that I felt the only way to get through to you was to be a bit of an asshole. As dolphin noted, it was tongue-in-cheek. It's said in Socionics that we often subconsciously treat other people as we would our dual. My language was purposefully over-the-top and not meant to be taken at face value. An SLE (or whoever my dual is) would have rolled with the punches.

However, those dramatic words are trying to convey real objections I had to the way you went about this conversation. Again, I want to emphasize, what I'm objecting to are how you were behaving -- NOT about who you are. I'm not making any weighty judgment about your character, but about how you choose to communicate, how you choose to react to criticism or disagreement, how you comport yourself, and ultimately, about how you come across to others. I now know I'm not the only one who sees your behavior like this: dolphin, Radio, Gilly, (even labocat in the Shoutbox the other day) have expressed similar sentiments about what it's like talking to you.

I have a really long post planned for tomorrow or the weekend in which I want to explain, in detail, what I meant, because I think you misconstrued a lot of what I was trying to say. Again, I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

I have to go to bed because its finals week and I've pulled two all-nighters this week. Thanks again to everyone who contributed.

[mu4]

I'm not making any weighty judgment about your character, but about how you choose to communicate, how you choose to react to criticism or disagreement, how you comport yourself, and ultimately, about how you come across to others. I now know I'm not the only one who sees your behavior like this: dolphin, Radio, Gilly, (even labocat in the Shoutbox the other day) have expressed similar sentiments about what it's like talking to you.

I'm pretty much me, I'm a lot easier to handle then I was 15 years ago. I never could control myself or control my behavior and don't really want to try that hard to do so, I'm irrational like that and I'm old and stubborn. I just tried to stop lashing out at people when they got annoyed at me, I was able to control this a little. I got a lot of sharp edges, but I think I can use those do to something not horrible in this lifetime. Beyond that I just want to entertain myself and enjoy good food, friends, family, etc.

I hope nobody has any hard feelings about all the discussion.

[Suz]

Smfh... Um, no, WA. Just no to IEE. Dude has no Ne.


Or... I could actually be IEI like I've been saying and actually have Ni in my ego? And he looks Si why exactly? Because he wears Urban Outfitters and Abercrombie shit? I don't see him being in a Fi/Si quadra -- he's aggressive (and actually prone to getting physical when he's angry; this has been a huge problem for him growing up but he's since taken on MMA and other sports to mediate all that pent up frustration), has little to no regard for keeping the peace (he is one of the most skillful people I've ever met at constructing insults -- he makes my Alpha SF mom cry regularly), and brash as fuck. I only entertained LSE and SEE because they've all got strong Se.

I'm not trying to be mean WA, but your suggestions are on crack.

ok ok... chill out.... I did say maybe i'm wrong about the Si... No I dont look at clothing when i VI, i was judging by a look he had in his eyes in one of the photos, but he didn't have that look in the other photos. cut me some slack... I only have photos to go by... you know him personally for 20 years... VI only goes so far... and VI by a few still photos is hard.

and i'm not totally set on delta NF for you... you know yourself better...

[Suz]

Anyway, I still see baby as my identical, IEI. If he were another type, I'd probably say SEI over EII. I find his posts to be very pleasant and easy to read. I usually strain really hard when reading things written by EII's for some odd reason. For instance, I really like and respect the EII posters of this forum, yet I can't comprehend a lot of their writing at all. It's weird.

I know what you're talking about here... that's actually how i feel about many posts by Ni-doms, they can be hard for me to read. Interesting...

[Suz]

What about enneagram 9s of different types? I think an IEE E9 would be just as agreeable as an Fe-creative.

I'm no Fe-type, but I'm very agreeable, almost to a fault.

My thoughts exactly

[Suz]

Okay, I have to go to a study group in about ten minutes, but I jsut wanted to posit my own interpretation of what's going on here:

1.) hkkmr has the weakest/most unvalued ever. He seems to have little concept of or appreciation for how he comes across to other people and how other people will react emotionally to his manner of communication. This is dynamic. As dolphin noted, it has nothing to do with a static evaluation of hkkmr's character, but rather the fact that he seems to be mildly socially retarded.

2.) What he thinks of as -creative (being diplomatic, smoothing over the ruffles of interaction) is actually not. I have no idea WTF it is, but I doubt any --creative would really relish the thought being thought as "agreeable to everyone." -types like to be appreciated for the range, flexibility, and nuance of their expressive repertoire. Actually, it seems like what hkkmr appreciates is what WorkaholicsAnon was trying to do upthread.

3.) I'm leaning towards EXTj for him and, based on his focus on stuff, LSE.

yay, I'll take hkkmr into my quadra!!!