ILI to IEE working together? mirage relations

[Saberstorm]

Has anybody had any experience with ILIs working with IEEs?

Just say anything about them.

[Korpsy Knievel]

60% chance of clusterfuck, give or take.

[Saberstorm]

But together, can we become a weapon?

[Absurd]

Has anybody had any experience with ILIs working with IEEs?

It works great. Trust me. I'm an ILI and I know what I say.

But together, can we become a weapon?

Weapon of mass destruction.

[Red Villain]

Has anybody had any experience with ILIs working with IEEs?

Just say anything about them.

Deriving from my own experience, with the presumption that I am actually an ILI and with the second presumption that I have typed these alleged IEEs correctly;

My relationship with IEE's is generally positive. I could best describe it as "osculating" in that mutual activity and conversation arrives in spurts however, such interactions never seem to go on for an extended period. They remain positive so long as interactions do not involve working together- in such circumstances interactions can quickly become hostile.

To be brief: Good friends, shitty co-workers.

[Suz]

Assuming i typed this alleged ILI correctly, I think i did have an in-depth working relationship with at least one.

I really admired him on many levels, i think all of these stemmed from Te proficiency and Fi-valuing. He was very efficient and taught me many tips on increasing my working efficiency that I remember to this day. He was actually the ONLY one who took the time to teach me this. Others would just criticize me up and down for being slow and that's it.

On other levels, there were things about him I didn't admire. Right at the outset, he seemed to make assumptions about what i cared about learning and what i didn't care about learning (which I cleared up right at the outset, and he did seem to respond to that well). Not sure if that's type related but it bothered me. The next thing that i noticed about him after a couple weeks of working together was that if we'd be having a tough shift, and he had a moment to get away and get food, he just got it for himself and didn't even ask if anyone else was hungry. Even worse was that he would make me present a case to him (he was my supervisor), and eat that food right in front of me. I thought that was so so selfish and inconsiderate of him at the time. Now I recognize that I was expecting caregiving behavior from a victim who naturally caters to an SEE who would get food for themselves. Similar things happened with sleep. I was working like a fiend on several 30 hour shift with him (we got slammed with work pretty hard every time), he would go to bed even though I could have used some help so that both of us could get some sleep (I never got any sleep).

I did have a crush on him for a while, despite the "mean" and "inconsiderate" things I thought he did. And he was not good looking at all! I think it was the Te and Fi-valuing that really made me appreciate him a lot at the time.

[Saberstorm]

I do notice his expectation of caregiver behavior. I seem to be unable to give him any Si - and he seems to need it.

Imagine that you (the IEE) are an artist/designer/inventor and you shared with the ILI a dream of a machine that you could make. The ILI has taken your design, determined that it cannot be prototyped with the given budget. Furthermore, the ILI was then inspired to produce a new design that can be prototyped. The ILI realizes that this new design has a larger, more viable market. He makes the prototype and takes it to the bank with a business plan. He begins soliciting investors. You are away on vacation.

The ILI has also examined patent law and realizes that he has no legal obligation to include you in the company that will be producing the new product. After all, the ILI designed it and built it. It has many "innovative steps" as patent law calls it, and even does something quite different that the IEEs original. He even spent 2,000 dollars of his own money on the prototype. He draws up the articles of incorporation, has the money to begin operations.

The ILI fears that the Te hidden agenda of the IEE will result in him not seeing the long term. In fact, the ILI is annoyed by the Te hidden agenda of the IEE. He think that the IEE focuses on irrelevant details. Furthermore the IEE drowns the ILI out in conversations...

The ILI believes that the IEE would be taken as a sucker by any of his fellow Gammas. They will see his emotivism Reinin trait, and take a big slice of equity for merely "cheering" him. A constructivist, the ILI looks at "the price of the money" - where can he get that money elsewhere and which offer of capital costs him the less. The ILI is deadpan - nearly impossible to praise. You have to fight to get equity in his company. Nobody can get shares without negotiation.

The ILI realizes however, that the IEE is a good designer, artist, and could manage the production facility easily due to his "trivial" Hidden agenda Te. The gamma ILI wants to focus on the executive decisions and leave the IEE in the capacity of shop keeper. Furthermore, the ILI does like the IEE, it is just that Fe PoLR means that he has the power to be "particularly objective" in dealing with someone he considers his friend.

The ILI would like then to turn the tables. It is NOT to be the IEEs dream, the IEEs company and so on. It is the ILIs company and the IEE will receive an offer to work in it. Equity is available to the IEE if he fights for it.

How would you react?

Will you see it as good that the ILI has done all the higher level Te, and that it is still a good relationship? The ILI is trying to be fair, but you know, is a fucking Gamma! Really, the ILI is doing this for YOU, because he likes you. He is just PoLR Fe. He is serving your interests by allowing you the freedom to be an absurd, short sighted, idealistic artist without the disadvantages of having no sense of the real value and long term structure of the endevor!

How do you see his reaction?

[Suz]

That's a tough question to answer but i do want to comment on a few things you mentioned above.

Imagine that you (the IEE) are an artist/designer/inventor and you shared with the ILI a dream of a machine that you could make. The ILI has taken your design, determined that it cannot be prototyped with the given budget. Furthermore, the ILI was then inspired to produce a new design that can be prototyped. The ILI realizes that this new design has a larger, more viable market. He makes the prototype and takes it to the bank with a business plan. He begins soliciting investors. You are away on vacation.

I would value the former input quite a bit, but would consider the latter action to be a grave betrayal as this being my original idea the change should have been discussed with me before making it public. As I understand the situation, you were asked for input/advice, not to take over. Good communication is key also, in a partnership.

The ILI has also examined patent law and realizes that he has no legal obligation to include you in the company that will be producing the new product. After all, the ILI designed it and built it. It has many "innovative steps" as patent law calls it, and even does something quite different that the IEEs original. He even spent 2,000 dollars of his own money on the prototype. He draws up the articles of incorporation, has the money to begin operations.

However, the IEE never asked you to do all of that. You did so without the original mastermind's input, so in essence the way I see it is you stole the IEE's idea in a way. I see this as a very unethical situation actually.

The ILI fears that the Te hidden agenda of the IEE will result in him not seeing the long term. In fact, the ILI is annoyed by the Te hidden agenda of the IEE. He think that the IEE focuses on irrelevant details. Furthermore the IEE drowns the ILI out in conversations...

Actually this isn't a Te misunderstanding I dont think. This conveys an Ne-Ni misunderstanding to me. I have indeed found that an Ne-produced thought process inclues a lot of details that seem "irrelevant" to Ni/Se people. Those details aren't irrelevant to the Ne-valuer. And your "long-term" vision sounds like Ni at work to me.

The ILI believes that the IEE would be taken as a sucker by any of his fellow Gammas. They will see his emotivism Reinin trait, and take a big slice of equity for merely "cheering" him. A constructivist, the ILI looks at "the price of the money" - where can he get that money elsewhere and which offer of capital costs him the less. The ILI is deadpan - nearly impossible to praise. You have to fight to get equity in his company. Nobody can get shares without negotiation.

That could very well be. That's where your Te input is helpful maybe.

The ILI realizes however, that the IEE is a good designer, artist, and could manage the production facility easily due to his "trivial" Hidden agenda Te. The gamma ILI wants to focus on the executive decisions and leave the IEE in the capacity of shop keeper. Furthermore, the ILI does like the IEE, it is just that Fe PoLR means that he has the power to be "particularly objective" in dealing with someone he considers his friend.

The ILI would like then to turn the tables. It is NOT to be the IEEs dream, the IEEs company and so on. It is the ILIs company and the IEE will receive an offer to work in it. Equity is available to the IEE if he fights for it.

How would you react?

Will you see it as good that the ILI has done all the higher level Te, and that it is still a good relationship? The ILI is trying to be fair, but you know, is a fucking Gamma! Really, the ILI is doing this for YOU, because he likes you. He is just PoLR Fe. He is serving your interests by allowing you the freedom to be an absurd, short sighted, idealistic artist without the disadvantages of having no sense of the real value and long term structure of the endevor!

How do you see his reaction?

I wouldn't see that as friendship at all... as I mentioned earlier, turning the tables like that on the IEE, I would see that as totally unethical considering that the original idea was the IEE's and the IEE just asked you for input. If the IEE chooses to make you in charge of certain things, then that's fine, but you shouldn't be aiming to steal the IEE's idea and making it your own. That's totally unfair and opportunistic. I dont even think that's type related.

[Saberstorm]

It is irrelevant if he asked me or not. It is my creativity. He triggered it. But the actual device is quite different.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Does he have the right to keep my innovations in the closet? No. What audacity to claim that I cannot make my own product. He has no ownership over it - because it is not his idea. He triggered my thoughts in a particular direction. No different that a web posting or a tv report could trigger my thoughts. I think you are confusing things. It is not his product, it would not exist without me.

His product does something different. There is a major point of departure there. They are similar - but because they do different things... they use different mechanisms.

None the less, I see what you are saying, he, the IEE is emotivist. He will react with audacity and offense for which he has no right to. I will begin my conversation with him with an awareness of this. I am not here to adore him, just as no business relation is based on that principle. Only a person of deep vanity would believe that to be the case. Any business relationship is based on shared resources but guarded interest. Together, we can win. He did not develop this product. I did. It is that simple. His contribution is ephemeral, a general idea. I have the follow through and the perfected plan. I still plan on offering him to join me, as our talents combine nicely. But I must deal with the strategy.

I am not intending anything bad for him. His emotivism must be addressed. Ti-PoLR means he cannot seaperate himself from his circumstances to communicate objectively. He (like you)cannot see other people's point of view. (Like I am doing this because I do like him, but it is not to "adore" him. He should see that I am not doing this as adoration and our relationship should be seen from how we can build momentum to a goal It is not about his adoration. It is how we can win together.

Basically, I do not want any trouble from him. He cannot claim my product as his own. With the resources that I shall gather, we can approach his designs more effectively and he can contribute to mine. It would be a partnership. But I am not here to suck his cock. His design sucked. Mine worked.

My Fe PoLR makes me utterly dispassionate. His Ti PoLR makes him purely subjective. I will have to figure out how to do real Fe with him... I have no Fe. Perhaps with power point, I can give him some Ti that he can handle. He has no Ti. Maybe bringing in a third person can help me with the Fe PoLR.

It should be fun to work with him. I do like him, but I am cool and dispassionate to people. I will introduce the idea that he "can earn" equity with me, mostly as a feint. I am more than happy to share with him! Of course he gets equity! But my contribution is what will make this endevor work. Yes, the tables must be turned. He cannot stop what is a different product with a different use - the audacity!

Fe PoLR meets Ti PoLR


Thanks for your input.

[Saberstorm]

The products are as different as a elevator is to a trolley car, as a trolley car is to a roller coaster. As a postage stamp is to a post-it-note, as a roller skate is to a skate board, a skate board to a snow board etc. They are derivative, but not "stolen."

Everything is in good faith.

[Suz]

Fe PoLR meets Ti PoLR

I'm not going to really respond to the majority of what you're saying as I dont know all the details of the situation, but i do want to correct you in that the differences you are seeing between IEE and ILI either in your interaction with me or with the other IEE has nothing to do with Fe-POLR vs Ti-POLR. ILIs and IEEs do not hit each others' POLR functions. Rather I am seeing some Ne-Ni misunderstandings in the idea preferences and communication, as well as some Se-valuing from your end (expecting the IEE to fight back), putting the IEE into an unjust situation (as I see it). I dont see any Fe or Ti coming into play here at all.

[Saberstorm]

Ah! That is very interesting. Thank you. I am anticipating a fight, but he will not do it! I am on guard without any provocation? Interesting.

[Suz]

Ah! That is very interesting. Thank you. I am anticipating a fight, but he will not do it! I am on guard without any provocation? Interesting.

Well sounded to me like you were trying to provoke a fight, and that if he wasn't going to fight for it, well then according to you he doesn't deserve to run things. That comes across to me as your justification for what you are doing.

That is sort of what i get from other Se/Ni people too, probably more Ni-ego people than Se-ego people--that constant expectation of others having to fight for themselves. Watch out though, IEEs can really viciously fight for themselves once they catch wind of what is going on, if the cause is important enough to him. I try to pick my battles, personally, as constantly having to fight for this or that wears me out. Proceed with caution, as the IEE is likely not as helpless as he may seem, and whether or not he chooses to fight this battle or let this one go, he will never see you as a friend again--this is pretty egregious of a transgression, no matter how much you try to rationalize it (at least if i have an accurate picture of what is going on, which i am not sure about).

To me, it sounds like you and the IEE need to sit down and talk about things and get on the same page. That is, if you dont want to be enemies after all is said and done. Talk it over, face all the facts, make your case. Discuss it together. COMMUNICATE.

[Suz]

The products are as different as a elevator is to a trolley car, as a trolley car is to a roller coaster. As a postage stamp is to a post-it-note, as a roller skate is to a skate board, a skate board to a snow board etc. They are derivative, but not "stolen."

Everything is in good faith.

Sorry, I missed this post before.

Ok well, as i said before, I dont know all the details of the situation, so maybe the ethics of it aren't as shady as i'm picturing. I still get the feeling that you two need to improve your communication, if you really are partners and working together. Speaking for myself as an IEE, when I'm working with others in a team, I value good communication very very much, and when there is a lapse (whether it was someone who just didn't want to bother me, or someone who didn't want me to think they couldn't handle it on their own) I find it very insulting and disruptive to whatever we are trying to accomplish, because I like to know all the details, as that affects what I am doing (or should be doing or not doing) as well. On the flip side, I communicate what i'm doing so others know how they can most efficiently contribute to the group also.

[Saberstorm]

I will take your advice into consideration. Thank you.

[Saberstorm]

There is no team. We had a five minute conversation about it 7 months ago. We have not discussed it after that.