Conflict Relations Marriages

[Creepy-Snaps]

Hi guys.

In the past almost 2 years that I've been studying socionics, it seems to me that many people, including me at one point, are forever seeking their dual, because of 1) fear of having a horrible marriage/relationship or 2) desire to have an intimate, positive relationship. Well, this may not be your interpretation, but I get the feeling that the 'obsession' people have with their dual is because of one of these 2 reasons.

So, as a way to ease people's minds, I started thinking: what if you can handle the worst-case scenario? What if you were married to a conflictor, in a relationship you had to/wanted to make work, what would you do? It occured to me, if we were able to sort of 'minimize the risk', by creating a guide, for how to make a conflictor marriage work, it would greatly relieve everyone's attitudes towards people in their opposing quadra, belief in making any relationship you want work, and realizing that, although socionics is a great asset in assessing compatibility, it's not decisive.

It would greatly reduce stress people have in dating. If we are able to map out how to make a conflictor relationship work, we will certainly be able to map out a guide to make ANY relationship work.

So, I know it seems improbable, but. If a couple were able to make a conflictor marriage work, make it a positive one, how would that be possible? All ideas/suggestions from all quadras are welcome.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I'll start off with my ideas. I want to point out some strengths of the conflictor relationships:

1) Conflictors generally have great respect for each others' strengths.
2) Conflictors generally get along extremely well in short periods of time together.

Maybe, conflictors would have to communicate their general goals to their partner: and then each of them can go separately, to achieve those goals, and then come back together for a short period of time, and discuss results? Basically something like that. Conflictors would have to spend lots of time with friends, to balance them out.

Conflictor relationships could give the freedom of sort of being your own person still, as opposed to partnering with another person.

Maybe the benefit of a conflictor marriage, would be, that you are able to be independent, in a way, able to pursue your own passions. If both partners realize they are different, and have different goals, but still respect the marriage and ultimately trust each other, then each person, if realizing they're striving for different things, could sort of root the other one on, without trying to change what they are doing.

[Saberstorm]

They would monitor each others weaknesses and therefore strengthen each other for times of stress.

[Beautiful sky]

I've already named your dual, all you have to do is go there and grab her before someone else does.

In any case, SLE point out obvious things about me that I don't want pronounced or to be said out loud; these are things about me that I would like to keep under social wraps; for instance, when I was trying to date, I was hanging around local coffee shop a lot; my SLE friend would say things like "she comes here to pick up on sexy men." I was like "stop, it." He was just joking around but yes it gets to my nerves because it was an innocent effort that when said makes one look like a prancer. He does things that annoy me, whether on purpose or not; he not only targeted my pet peeves but I also targeted his as well, making for conflict over time. We look at the world in diametrically opposite ways; what's a joke to him is something sad, heart troubling, and emotional to me. I make GREAT friends with my conflict relations because they give me helpful advice.

I'm great with my dual and very very very happy. Can't emphasize this enough.

[Saberstorm]

Who is Mountain Dew's dual?

[Beautiful sky]

Who is Mountain Dew's dual?

I don't want to embarrass her; she's a forum member.

The interesting thing about SLE is that they feel that these things they say about my nature, or intentions, is being "truthful" and "honest" but to me they don't have to be said or "advertised" to the whole world; yes, I like understated intentions that are not advertised to the whole world.

[Roro]

I don't want to embarrass her; she's a forum member.

How would it embarrass anybody by mentioning what their type is? You go around flashing your confirmations anyways, I doubt this is much different.

[Beautiful sky]

How would it embarrass anybody by mentioning what their type is? You go around flashing your confirmations anyways, I doubt this is much different.

Maybe she doesn't want me to promote a matchy-matchy with MD

Anyway on SLE: I love SLE but they will say these kinds of things that embarrase me:
I changed this from a forum member's post:
Maritsa, even charisma can't mask his ugly appearance.
You (probably) think he scores 10s 'cuz he's your dual .

My response:
"NO, I DON'T!" I like him because of characteristics other than his appearance.

In which case, an SLE will respond with more wit and sarcasm and in which case, I will get more and more frustrated. This is because I am serious and they are merry type.

[Saberstorm]

Whose my dual? Tell me! tell me!

[Codie]

I've already named your dual, all you have to do is go there and grab her before someone else does.

In any case, SLE point out obvious things about me that I don't want pronounced or to be said out loud; these are things about me that I would like to keep under social wraps; for instance, when I was trying to date, I was hanging around local coffee shop a lot; my SLE friend would say things like "she comes here to pick up on sexy men." I was like "stop, it." He was just joking around but yes it gets to my nerves because it was an innocent effort that when said makes one look like a prancer. He does things that annoy me, whether on purpose or not; he not only targeted my pet peeves but I also targeted his as well, making for conflict over time. We look at the world in diametrically opposite ways; what's a joke to him is something sad, heart troubling, and emotional to me. I make GREAT friends with my conflict relations because they give me helpful advice.

I'm great with my dual and very very very happy. Can't emphasize this enough.

This is what my Si-LSE grandma does, thats exactly how I experince things when with her.

@OP, I think socionics can be useful to handle things better (not get stressed) when forced to hang around a conflictor but I would'nt willingly enter a relationship with one & expect it to somehow work... when over time it's obvious that it's ever not going to.

[Beautiful sky]

What do I pick on with SLE?

SLE see other people as appendages to the achievement of their own goals; they are dehumanizing and neglectful of human individuality. This is antithetical to how I see people. They mask people in monolithic groups that all think and act the same way. “The communists” they all think the same and operate the same way. I want them to see the individual human characteristics; I tell them "this is a human being."

Clint Eastwood is an example of an SLE he monopolizes the talents of his crew; the crew become appendages of Clints visions and they don't really work on any other producer so you don't know their talents. This is why I type Christopher Reeve as SLE also, because when his fans, kids approached him for an autograph, he lumped these kids into the "children of the world," suggesting to the public that "they" should pursue real goals like being fire fighters instead of "the child who admires him and wants his autograph."

I want to give an example of how George W. Bush Jr mask people masking people in monolithic group "Them and US" we have to fight them over there; al qeada, Islama - fascism.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Computer, brace yourself, I'm about to take a Maritsa post seriously.

SLE see other people as appendages to the achievement of their own goals; they are dehumanizing and neglectful of human individuality.

Who are you to decide what is humane or not? I understand you have a big heart but still, you being some spokesperson for humanitarian ideals seems really weird. If you were a true humanitarian wouldn't you be forgiving of other people's inhumanity rather them condemn them for it? Everybody has this inner demon that's hard to slay and I don't think it responds well to other people's judgements? I can't really do this, BG does this much better than me, which is probably why he's slightly more liked than me. I take moral offense to things. It doesn't seem moral to call other people immoral though and punish them for their wrongdoings.

You'll also say things like 'Fi is empathy' which makes no sense.

I still like you of course don't take my post the wrong way but you really are cra cra.

[Esaman]

It doesn't seem moral to call other people immoral though and punish them for their wrongdoings.

Either you use same words differently in the same sentence, or you are hilariously hypocritical.
Morality is about criticizing thoughts and punishing behaviors that you consider immoral.

[Beautiful sky]

When two people aren't a naturally fit for one another, there is no amount of communicating one can do to try to get along because Perceptual communication style is inherently different from that of the Rational; where Rational types try to make sense of things and to understand them by bringing things of the external to their understanding, rational, logic, the Perceptual type observes and communicates the happenings rather than bringing these happenings into their bases for understanding other things that happen around them; an example is that an SEE who vents about what people are doing to her or what things and relations around her are bothering her will always do wo without making or coming up with ways to change her mental perspective, rather they will remove themselves from a situation to improve the happenings around her. A rational type will have to give up a lot of themselves to be something they are not and at what end is it acceptable to be something or to force yourself to be something you aren't; at what cost will it take away from your being and your sense of happiness to do this?

Conflictory relations naturally pick on each other's pet peeves:

Take ESE and ILI for instance; an ESE picks at an ILI for their "critical" nature, wanting them to be more of a rational analyst, as their dual is; but, because an ILI is not an analyst, the poor critic is left with such harmful, spiteful comments of "you're insecure, you worry and fret about everything I don't care about" from the ESE and the ESE in return is left with comments of "you're arrogant, narcissistic, and a know it all." And this basic argument continues, seeps into the love and sex life of the relationship and is a target on both person's type day in and day out, building resentment towards each other, causing each other not to speak to one another and distance is inevitable evolution of such a relation.

[Absurd]

When two people aren't a naturally fit for one another, there is no amount of communicating one can do to try to get along because Perceptual communication style is inherently different from that of the Rational; where Rational types try to make sense of things and to understand them by bringing things of the external to their understanding, rational, logic, the Perceptual type observes and communicates the happenings rather than bringing these happenings into their bases for understanding other things that happen around them; an example is that an SEE who vents about what people are doing to her or what things and relations around her are bothering her will always do wo without making or coming up with ways to change her mental perspective, rather they will remove themselves from a situation to improve the happenings around her. A rational type will have to give up a lot of themselves to be something they are not and at what end is it acceptable to be something or to force yourself to be something you aren't; at what cost will it take away from your being and your sense of happiness to do this?

Conflictory relations naturally pick on each other's pet peeves:

Take ESE and ILI for instance; an ESE picks at an ILI for their "critical" nature, wanting them to be more of a rational analyst, as their dual is; but, because an ILI is not an analyst, the poor critic is left with such harmful, spiteful comments of "you're insecure, you worry and fret about everything I don't care about" from the ESE and the ESE in return is left with comments of "you're arrogant, narcissistic, and a know it all." And this basic argument continues, seeps into the love and sex life of the relationship and is a target on both person's type day in and day out, building resentment towards each other, causing each other not to speak to one another and distance is inevitable evolution of such a relation.

Exactly.

[The Ineffable]

It occured to me, if we were able to sort of 'minimize the risk', by creating a guide, for how to make a conflictor marriage work, it would greatly relieve everyone's attitudes towards people in their opposing quadra, belief in making any relationship you want work, and realizing that, although socionics is a great asset in assessing compatibility, it's not decisive.

But why would one want to do that? It's like hitting the nail on its point, unless there's some other gain or want to prove yourself capable to overcome difficulties, I don't see any reason to look for that.

[Esaman]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.
You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode (in which case you are a masochist). But your children will not appreciate the mode. There is also a lot higher chance that some children will be conflictors with their parent, and that is just tragic and unfair.

[Pa3s]

I've already named your dual, all you have to do is go there and grab her before someone else does.

One does not simply grab people.

You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode

Comparing a relationship to a video game? I think you have confirmed your type right now.

[Roro]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.
You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode (in which case you are a masochist). But your children will not appreciate the mode. There is also a lot higher chance that some children will be conflictors with their parent, and that is just tragic and unfair.

I would love to hear you explain dual relationships/marriages that fail because of difficulties.

[Esaman]

I would love to hear you explain dual relationships/marriages that fail because of difficulties.

Why would I need to do that? Shit happens, but it happens a lot more if you jump in to a septic tank.

[Suz]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.

I was going to mention this too. I think people end up married to their conflictors when they get married too soon, and/or jump into bed together too soon, as physical intimacy blurs personality incompatibilities, and if you haven't gotten to know the person well enough beforehand, the incompatibilities will all be basked in a rosy glow until reality sets in, perhaps a year or 2 (or more) into marriage.

Re: dating, i dont think people need to be fearful of dating a conflictor, or what have you. The whole purpose of dating is to get to know someone before committing to them.

[Roro]

Shit happens

Such as taking a model to evaluate whether or not a relationship will work before the relationship has even began, that sort of shit? If you didn't know about Socionics, I would assume most would think that a lot of relationships these days are those of "conflictors."

I think people end up married to their conflictors when they get married too soon, and/or jump into bed together too soon, as physical intimacy blurs personality incompatibilities,

Better known as todays youth?

[Suz]

Better known as todays youth?

sadly...

Though i dont think this is a new problem at all.. maybe just considered more "mainstream" and acceptable than before.

[Esaman]

Such as taking a model to evaluate whether or not a relationship will work before the relationship has even began, that sort of shit? If you didn't know about Socionics, I would assume most would think that a lot of relationships these days are those of "conflictors."

If you don't think that some types of people mesh better with certain other types of people and a lot worse with others, you are at the wrong corner of the interwebs.

I have a lot of experience with conflictor relationships in marriage in particular. My parents are. I can say with full certainty, that conflictor intertype relationships is an opposite of any healthy concept of partnership between married people.
Also, I am conflictor with one of them.

[Roro]

Also, I am conflictor with one of them.

Oh, damn son. That's some serious shit. Almost makes me want to cry you a river.

[woofwoofl]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.
You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode (in which case you are a masochist). But your children will not appreciate the mode. There is also a lot higher chance that some children will be conflictors with their parent, and that is just tragic and unfair.

I know an Fe-EIE and Si-SLI marriage that's splitting finally after over two decades, and it was bad. Some awesome kids came of it though. And yes, the marriage was dogshit on the kids too...

I have a lot of experience with conflictor relationships in marriage in particular. My parents are. I can say with full certainty, that conflictor intertype relationships is an opposite of any healthy concept of partnership between married people.
Also, I am conflictor with one of them.

Shit

I've got my mom as Ti-LII, and my dad was probably Si-ESE. There were two of them, one of me, and I was a lot smaller, especially at the beginning. No one should ever have to be a kid. Thankfully, it never lasts.

Assuming "cry you a river" doesn't signify sarcasm, thanks. I am mostly over it. Distance from their relationship (or lack of it - eventual divorce) and from the conflictor, allowed me to naturally heal emotionally even without support to my Super-Id by other people. With unlimited access to information you can dualize yourself to a certain degree.
By the way, don't get the wrong idea. Both my parents are good people.

Same here

It was odd; there was nothing wrong with any of us, we just didn't totally mesh all the time. The problem is in being effectively stuck with someone... once again, being a kid is terrible, legally and physically counting as less than human...


Anyways, people need to be around each other because they like each other, not because they feel forced to, and definitely not because there's a legislative gun to their heads. Government needs to butt the fuck out of this, and stop giving people handouts for living a "traditional" lifestyle, effectively robbing anyone else who aspires to something greater, or at least more interesting.

These synthesized economical reasons for marriage are so much bullshit, and so is the conflation of immobility with stability, and thinking that either of the two are worth aspiring to enough to discard all else in life.

I sure as hell have no plans on getting married.

[ashlesha]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.
You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode (in which case you are a masochist). But your children will not appreciate the mode. There is also a lot higher chance that some children will be conflictors with their parent, and that is just tragic and unfair.

what the fuck.

[redbaron]

Ending up married to a conflictor is the bigger mistakes you can make in your life.
You may like your relationships in insane difficulty mode (in which case you are a masochist). But your children will not appreciate the mode. There is also a lot higher chance that some children will be conflictors with their parent, and that is just tragic and unfair.

I agree with you. I know a conflictor marriage personally and it's not happy. Even keeping distance from each other, things are tense and the SLE DOES embarrass the EII quite often. She stays away from him, doesn't really want to be seen with him. He walks on egg shells with her.... trust me, it's bad. Due to religious reasons, they're still together after 21 years of marriage. But it's not happy and the kids know it and they've been a terrible model of marriage to the kids (unless you think that marriage is only about staying together no matter what) and they know it.

[Nowisthetime]

So, as a way to ease people's minds, I started thinking: what if you can handle the worst-case scenario? What if you were married to a conflictor, in a relationship you had to/wanted to make work, what would you do?

There is a Russian article on the subject on how to get the 16 relationships to work, despite of the incompatibility. I'll try to find the link.

[Nowisthetime]

I was looking for this, It's taken from here

btw, conflict is not necessarily the worst relation. According to some sources it would be super-ego relations.

Advice on getting along (conflict relations)

These relations give rise to ever-present inner tension. People tied by these relations over time become nervous and irritable. In collaboration with your conflict partner, strictly divide duties among yourselves and carry them out according to firm schedule/plan. Rationalizations will help you keep internal nervousness at bay and channel accumulated energy into useful things of service-homecaring nature or leisure time.

It is recommended to use humor and jokes to uplift each other's moods. However, joke carefully and avoid sarcasm. Once you feel that the tension has reached a critical point, it is best that you leave the territory of a partner, for example, got to a different room.

Do not allow any middlemen in your relations. Household duties perform together, but do not take up the same duty together. Avoid surprises, fancies, novelties, as your partner is likely to react negatively to them.

Keep fidelity out of a sense of duty, consciously suppress resentment and antipathy. Make it a tradition to celebrate the most pleasant moments of your relationship. Help each other in the most difficult moments. This way you will see responsiveness and effectiveness of these relations in the pursuit of mutual interests against outside pressures and adversity.

[Absurd]

Maritsa and Matt Leblanc.

[Suz]

There is a Russian article on the subject on how to get the 16 relationships to work, despite of the incompatibility. I'll try to find the link.

Would you mind posting the link to where we can read the others?

[Nowisthetime]

Would you mind posting the link to where we can read the others?

Just check the articles on the relationships we have in this forum. They all contain the part "Advice on getting along". By Gulenko.

[Suz]

Just check the articles on the relationships we have in this forum. They all contain the part "Advice on getting along". By Gulenko.

Got it thanks!!

[Atlast]

Socionics aside, how does one map out a path to making a relationship work that is not already a working matter naturally? I would define a 'working' relationship as a process that is born and proceeds naturally and happily; if you dislike your relationship and have to follow some complex map to make it 'work', is that really 'working'? Dunno if it's just me here, but I would jump ship for the benefit of both of us.

[Ver]

Just to sum up everything that has been said so far:

People familiar with socionics are drawn to the ideal of their dual because they look for something good and fulfilling in their lives and they know that duality can give it to them - they either love the description of their duality and would love to be in one or just look for fulfilment. It doesn't or at least it shouldn't necessarily mean that they would end up in a duality relationship (but I wish we all end up in a healthy ones)
Normally people who end up being married to their conflictor or some type not good to them for any reason have made the wrong decision. I mean if there is little hope for the relationship to work it means the decision was wrong and if possible they should do something to get out of it. There is no need to "handle the worst case scenario".
The fact that you are not together anymore doesn't necessarily mean it's a failure but staying in an unhealthy, unfulfilling relationship in which you don't understand each other - is.

I think the only way "to minimize the risk people take when dating" is just to be true to yourself. Pay attention to your friends, people you feel good with. The same should apply to the person you decide to have a relationship with.
Normally, we feel some type of easiness around people we like as if you step in the same direction. IMO if someone is not suitable for you there's a lot of tension e.g. the need to explain what you did and why, what you meant, what the relationship is etc.
I feel that what I'm writing is of course only one side of the problem and I know that's a bit of simplification and there are as many cases as many people.

Moreover, I quess for most people it takes some time to learn to be mature and maybe also "humble", to understand what a relationship really is and to learn how to give and take.

There is no good solution. For some that would be staying in an unhealthy relationship, for some that would be ending it. There are people who want to be on their own, there are situations in which you or your partner change and aren't a good fit anymore.

I don't want to say "follow your heart" cause it sounds a bit too shallow to me. What I'm sure of is you firstly need to understand, accept and love yourself - only then are you able to maintain a healthy relationship with anyone. Usually the relationships are the mirror of us.

[redbaron]

So... now I know three of them. All fell apart after 15/20/25 years respectively. But I wanted to say that it's not impossible for it to "work" for awhile, if your expectations aren't very high.

What basically happens is that as long as your external values align, you can focus on mutual goals. This keeps you occupied for a long time, especially if there are children in the picture and if one of you works and/or travels a lot. That takes the pressure off of dealing with each other all the time. But also, you don't ever feel "close" to one another. If this is an acceptable situation, it can be managed. The problem comes when you realize one day that "hey, I actually want to feel close to my partner. This isn't right." so then you do the sensible thing and "seek counseling". Hmmmm... problem is, when you're conflict relations, counseling makes things worse. Here's why--counseling usually is designed to bring out the truth, to encourage both parties to be more themselves, to face up to what's wrong. And when you're in a conflict relationship, there's a lot going wrong under the surface. These things can be ignored for a long time but once you're in counseling, it's over. The more you try to work on things, the more you end up pushing each other away and understanding that you're not meshing much... at all.

If you're in a conflict relationship and you really want it to last, my advice is to have low expectations for what the relationship can provide, don't look too closely at anything negative, focus on external shared goals and your own individual goals, make sure you each have other friends who are meeting your needs for understanding and accept the situation for what it is. Also, if you're an idealist, forget it. Don't waste time trying to force things to be what you want them to be, because they aren't and never will be.

The end.

p.s. those who left their conflict marriage were much happier afterwards. there is much relief if you can let go of that part of you that identifies with the pain of being in a difficult relationship.

[ashlesha]

I don't understand how this happens. the charming from a distance thing, okay. but married? drunk Vegas weddings?

more likely they would have been typed duals or illusionaries at first and then changed over time and grew apart to look like conflictors people change blah blah

[Ver]

I don't understand how this happens. the charming from a distance thing, okay. but married? drunk Vegas weddings?

more likely they would have been typed duals or illusionaries at first and then changed over time and grew apart to look like conflictors people change blah blah

I think conflictors might be attracted to each other. I get on pretty well with some Beta ST, however, I belive our relationships wouldn't work well. Conflictors very often admire each other and when they get together they just start irritating each other. Another thing is, when you are used to dealing with people outside your own quadra (e.g. in family) you somehow learn how to deal with them. I think I was used to using a lot of Fe and Si, as lmost my whole family is alpha. I also had two alpha boyfriends.
Moreover, some people don't choose their partners by the feeling "it feels good" but they want to prove something to themselves e.g. "I can win his heart over" even if they subconsciously know they re not right for each other. Also, moral issues - " I cannot leave him, he's not a bad person, we just can't understand each other"

[redbaron]

Another thing is, when you are used to dealing with people outside your own quadra (e.g. in family) you somehow learn how to deal with them. I think I was used to using a lot of Fe and Si, as lmost my whole family is alpha. I also had two alpha boyfriends.
Moreover, some people don't choose their partners by the feeling "it feels good" but they want to prove something to themselves e.g. "I can win his heart over" even if they subconsciously know they re not right for each other. Also, moral issues - " I cannot leave him, he's not a bad person, we just can't understand each other"

all of this. Also, if the timing is right and you have it in your head that you want to get married, you take the first acceptable "good" person you're attracted to! Not wise!