Conflict Relations Marriages

[ashlesha]

basically what i'm trying to get at is that it all seems really arbitrary. socionics is real but sometimes conflictors get married. gravity is real but sometimes people float. whatever.

i just feel like people should admit that, yknow.. people are happy when they get married and then unhappy later. people change. we don't really have any answers here with this stuff. if somebody described their relationship as dual bliss and then 10 years later as conflictor hell, does that mean they were never truly happy? does it mean the person they married was never right for them? NO. it does not mean that at all.

[Ver]

wow, that's horrible. why would he be afraid of breaking up, is she abusive or something?

No, she's not abusive. It's just he's prone to procrastinate, just like me. He dealth with break-up when he was studying and he didn't get over easily. He had some serious problems. I suppose it has a lot to do with the feeling of being abandonded - that's the thing some people are most afraid of in their lives. It's of course connected with growing up etc, etc... a big wheel of connections resulting in .... marrying your conflictor (not necessarily though).

[Phthalate]

This is interesting.

I type myself as an ILE (I know some people will disagree... I don't give a fuck), and I have to admit that I have been attracted to several Gamma SFs in the past. There are certain attributed that I find in them that I feel enhance me... Some of these include:

• Assertiveness
• Charisma
• Strong drive
• Loyal
• Aesthetically responsible

And some other qualities that I would definitely enjoy having in a partner (generalizing all Gamma SFs, of course).

What I mean to say is that, if I'd rush into a relationship with someone like this, and everything else feels right (sexually attracted, good humor with one another, good relationship with acquaintances), then I could see how I'd end up married to someone like this (assuming I don't use socionics as a standard to measure the relationship). Even in this sense, I consider myself to not let myself drive by shallow matters and interests... and I do so much less than most of the people around me. My roommate, for example, described a girl as 'perfect' because she liked the same football team as him.

It can happen, and I can see how this can be problematic down the long line. I find that this happens even MORE often in relationships where people rush into getting married (aka 6 months of being in a relationship). There are just some things that you can easily glance over if you let infatuation drive you.

[Aquagraph]

Take it with a extra grain of salt since I'm drunk but here goes.

I don't know how am I supposed to conflict with lungs since she has almost always been right in my book. And more than that. Her ideology, approach and aesthetics is definitely close to mine and I'm having difficulties understanding where would we clash. So what I'm basically saying, marry me and let's have kids, they'll be awesome anyhow. Not that I ever cared for Christian ritualistic bonding or having offspring at this point of life.

But maybe great minds just think alike.

[ashlesha]

Take it with a extra grain of salt since I'm drunk but here goes.

I don't know how am I supposed to conflict with lungs since she has almost always been right in my book. And more than that. Her ideology, approach and aesthetics is definitely close to mine and I'm having difficulties understanding where would we clash. So what I'm basically saying, marry me and let's have kids, they'll be awesome anyhow. Not that I ever cared for Christian ritualistic bonding or having offspring at this point of life.

But maybe great minds just think alike.

aqua you're so cute omg right now I'm sitting in a food court staring at my phone with a big goofy ass grin

ok, I'm iei. I like you too.

[Radio]

i totally want to have a drunk vegas wedding at least once before i die.

/random

[Aquagraph]

Yes!

[redbaron]

Some pairs imo are more prone to staying in conflictor relationships e.g. Fi-PoLR SLE and martyr EII.

I'm watching one of these fall apart right now. both are stubborn too. thing is, they've lost all faith in relationships because of this hellish experience. 22 years...

[redbaron]

Take it with a extra grain of salt since I'm drunk but here goes.

I don't know how am I supposed to conflict with lungs since she has almost always been right in my book. And more than that. Her ideology, approach and aesthetics is definitely close to mine and I'm having difficulties understanding where would we clash. So what I'm basically saying, marry me and let's have kids, they'll be awesome anyhow. Not that I ever cared for Christian ritualistic bonding or having offspring at this point of life.

But maybe great minds just think alike.

because lungs is IEI.

[redbaron]

FYI, I loved my conflictor husband (and still do) but I was never in love with him. I had given up on that (this was even while we were dating!), choosing instead to be realistic and thinking that all of our external similarities (and there were many) would be enough to hold us together. And it was enough for many years. I eschewed the emotional connection for the practicalities. And I paid for that mistake. I don't know about the other couples. I think they might have been "in love" for a short while, or thought they were. But they all come from the mindset and background that you NEVER divorce. It's not an option. All relationships require "work", etc.

Here's the thing: when the work that you do in a relationship is productive and yields positive results, it's all good. But when you spend years working and things don't get better, and indeed when things get worse the more attention you give the relationship, something is definitely wrong.

[ashlesha]

FYI, I loved my conflictor husband (and still do) but I was never in love with him. I had given up on that (this was even while we were dating!), choosing instead to be realistic and thinking that all of our external similarities (and there were many) would be enough to hold us together. And it was enough for many years. I eschewed the emotional connection for the practicalities. And I paid for that mistake. I don't know about the other couples. I think they might have been "in love" for a short while, or thought they were. But they all come from the mindset and background that you NEVER divorce. It's not an option. All relationships require "work", etc.

Here's the thing: when the work that you do in a relationship is productive and yields positive results, it's all good. But when you spend years working and things don't get better, and indeed when things get worse the more attention you give the relationship, something is definitely wrong.

i feel you. this is exactly what i went through w/ my ex who was benefit (well, you would say superego). its hard to just face it and deal with the reality that its just not working when there isn't anything specific you can point to. its so horrible but i used to fantasize about him cheating on me so i'd have a justifiable reason to leave. and there's this promise and this pressure of "any relationship can work, you're just not dedicated enough/trying hard enough." and of course infatuation fades and theres the stigma of leaving somebody flippantly because of "not being in love," but thats not even what it is, really. its about facing them every day and being unhappy and about how when they touch you its hard not to flinch and you don't know why but its just the way it is. and how long do you deal with that before you face the fact that even if it isn't neat and reasonable you can't help that you feel that way. and are you willing to potentially waste your entire life feeling empty because its supposedly the right thing to do.

[redbaron]

i feel you. this is exactly what i went through w/ my ex who was benefit (well, you would say superego). its hard to just face it and deal with the reality that its just not working when there isn't anything specific you can point to. its so horrible but i used to fantasize about him cheating on me so i'd have a justifiable reason to leave. and there's this promise and this pressure of "any relationship can work, you're just not dedicated enough/trying hard enough." and of course infatuation fades and theres the stigma of leaving somebody flippantly because of "not being in love," but thats not even what it is, really. its about facing them every day and being unhappy and about how when they touch you its hard not to flinch and you don't know why but its just the way it is. and how long do you deal with that before you face the fact that even if it isn't neat and reasonable you can't help that you feel that way. and are you willing to potentially waste your entire life feeling empty because its supposedly the right thing to do.

EXACTLY.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I appreciate the post too, redbaron. Just wanted to add my thanks.

[redbaron]

basically what i'm trying to get at is that it all seems really arbitrary. socionics is real but sometimes conflictors get married. gravity is real but sometimes people float. whatever.

i just feel like people should admit that, yknow.. people are happy when they get married and then unhappy later. people change. we don't really have any answers here with this stuff. if somebody described their relationship as dual bliss and then 10 years later as conflictor hell, does that mean they were never truly happy? does it mean the person they married was never right for them? NO. it does not mean that at all.

my relationship was never dual bliss. I would never have described it as bliss at all. I was happy to be settled, to have that part of my life figured out. Happy to know that I could move forward with having a family and the stability that brings. As sp-first, all of that was *highly* attractive to me. I WAS happy over those things in the beginning. Really and truly happy. But it wasn't due to the relationship itself as much as the FACT that I was married. And all of the external things that worked out for us (we always agreed on money and how to spend it. we always made big decisions very easily such as what car and house to buy, where to move, when to have children, etc).

[Clumsy]

my relationship was never dual bliss. I would never have described it as bliss at all. I was happy to be settled, to have that part of my life figured out. Happy to know that I could move forward with having a family and the stability that brings. As sp-first, all of that was *highly* attractive to me. I WAS happy over those things in the beginning. Really and truly happy. But it wasn't due to the relationship itself as much as the FACT that I was married. And all of the external things that worked out for us (we always agreed on money and how to spend it. we always made big decisions very easily such as what car and house to buy, where to move, when to have children, etc).

I think this is really helpful insight into sp-first, redbaron.

You mentioned before in previous threads that your brother and sister-in-law are duals; do you mind me asking what their instinct stackings are? Did their stacks really help contribute to the duality, or did the duality come first for them and stacks second, in your opinion?

ALSO, if you're sp-firsts (which all of them are, from what I can tell), you're way more focused on your external well-being, at least at first. Providing for your family, having a house, taking care of the kids, jobs, etc. And less focused on an intimate connection. In fact, my guess is that for sx-last people, this might not be important at all and they could probably live with a moderate degree of happiness in a conflict relation if they have low expectations.

I think this is an interesting point to bring up. I never really thought of that, but I can definitely see how it would make sense and could seemingly work out better for an sx-last couple.

[redbaron]

You mentioned before in previous threads that your brother and sister-in-law are duals; do you mind me asking what their instinct stackings are? Did their stacks really help contribute to the duality, or did the duality come first for them and stacks second, in your opinion?

thanks Clumsy! My brother and SIL are sx/sp! They met when they were 16 and 17 years old and have been together ever since. Very intense relationship especially in the beginning. It was one of those duality things where they kind of shut out everyone else in their lives. Not intentionally but it just happened that way. Even now, they have no children, just pets (together for 20 years). They work together every day at their own business. Everything they do is together. Literally. And that's not for everyone. I don't think I would want a relationship like that, personally. I'm too independent. And I like the idea of having things to share with my significant other, things to tell him about later. you know? Anyway, I think the duality probably came first for them, but the instinct stacking is important too, especially when it comes to lifestyle, priorities, decision-making, etc.

I think that for me and my husband, one of the reasons we had an easy time of making decisions was because we are both sp-first.

[Codie]

ALSO, if you're sp-firsts (which all of them are, from what I can tell), you're way more focused on your external well-being, at least at first. Providing for your family, having a house, taking care of the kids, jobs, etc. And less focused on an intimate connection. In fact, my guess is that for sx-last people, this might not be important at all and they could probably live with a moderate degree of happiness in a conflict relation if they have low expectations.

Isn't that more motivated by a social instinct if anything, not a self-preservation one? Society at large (media, religion, friends/ family) actively encourage people to marry and have children... at the expense of your own finances & freedom, personal security and sorry to say it: happiness. I think self preservation is more focused on internal well being and everything that influences that, including relationships. I would think sp's were the least likely to be willing to compromise personal well-being for external well-being.

[redbaron]

Isn't that more motivated by a social instinct if anything, not a self-preservation one? Society at large (media, religion, friends/ family) actively encourage people to marry and have children... at the expense of your own finances & freedom, personal security and sorry to say it: happiness. I think self preservation is more focused on internal well being and everything that influences that, including relationships. I would think sp's were the least likely to be willing to compromise personal well-being for external well-being.

No, social instinct wasn't my motivation. My motivation was to have my basic physical needs met, to have the freedom to not have to worry about things like rent, etc. And I would NEVER have had kids without the means to support them! So there was no "at the expense of finances and freedom" for me. I wanted kids very much myself, not because of what society said or my parents or other people's expectations, but because that's what I wanted. I was very happy when I had my kids, and the marriage was "okay", it was functioning but more on a practical level than an intimate one. We weren't fighting all the time or anything, there just wasn't much... substance beyond the day to day living. We had pretty healthy sex too but it wasn't true sharing of ourselves, it was on a physical level only. Scratching the itch, as they say.

[Codie]

No, social instinct wasn't my motivation. My motivation was to have my basic physical needs met, to have the freedom to not have to worry about things like rent, etc. And I would NEVER have had kids without the means to support them! So there was no "at the expense of finances and freedom" for me. I wanted kids very much myself, not because of what society said or my parents or other people's expectations, but because that's what I wanted. I was very happy when I had my kids, and the marriage was "okay", it was functioning but more on a practical level than an intimate one. We weren't fighting all the time or anything, there just wasn't much... substance beyond the day to day living. We had pretty healthy sex too but it wasn't true sharing of ourselves, it was on a physical level only. Scratching the itch, as they say.

With children in the picture it becomes difficult (in some cases impossible) to leave an unhappy relationship.. that's what I meant by 'loss of freedom', the kids themselves aren't to blame but the consequences of having them are. I'm guessing most conflictors who stay together, do so because they've had children. The need for security is amplified by circumstances like having to provide for a family... I think it's the same for people of any enneagram instinct. Yesterday, me and my aunt (a so/sx) were actually talking about how her focused had to change after she had her firstborn - she became alot more focused on security and had to give up a freelance job for a more stable one.

[Variant]

Very well written redbaron, aligns quite well with what socionics and instinct stackings are to me. I love having food for thought during stressful times- will come back to read this in the future as a reminder. Fist pound sista

[shakealittle]

It almost sounds like conflict is successful - over 10 years for a relationship is pretty good!!

But yes, totally agree with everything you said.

I can get along with my conflictor if I repress myself, yup, but as you say, that leads to a lot of things being swept under a rug (which you HAVE to do because you just know that if you let it out it won't lead to ANYTHING being solved at all). Sooo in a way conflict relations can be quite peaceful on the surface because you're being 'polite'

Whereas with duality, the opposite is true, and you are forced to bring out everything....and oddly, the more you repress, the less stable the relationship.

[redbaron]

It almost sounds like conflict is successful - over 10 years for a relationship is pretty good!!

But yes, totally agree with everything you said.

I can get along with my conflictor if I repress myself, yup, but as you say, that leads to a lot of things being swept under a rug (which you HAVE to do because you just know that if you let it out it won't lead to ANYTHING being solved at all). Sooo in a way conflict relations can be quite peaceful on the surface because you're being 'polite'

Whereas with duality, the opposite is true, and you are forced to bring out everything....and oddly, the more you repress, the less stable the relationship.

EXACTLY. Wow you really spelled it out here. We're still very polite, which makes the separation very nice for the kids and even between the two of us. I think outsiders don't know what to make of it. People think that if you're not screaming at each other you ought to be able to stay married. It's kind of interesting.

[blackburry]

It almost sounds like conflict is successful - over 10 years for a relationship is pretty good!!

But yes, totally agree with everything you said.

I can get along with my conflictor if I repress myself, yup, but as you say, that leads to a lot of things being swept under a rug (which you HAVE to do because you just know that if you let it out it won't lead to ANYTHING being solved at all). Sooo in a way conflict relations can be quite peaceful on the surface because you're being 'polite'

Whereas with duality, the opposite is true, and you are forced to bring out everything....and oddly, the more you repress, the less stable the relationship.

^^^ Yep.

[Aquagraph]

I don't find it odd. Rugs with lots of skeletons under them tend to trip you.

[Absurd]

basically what i'm trying to get at is that it all seems really arbitrary. socionics is real but sometimes conflictors get married. gravity is real but sometimes people float. whatever.

Hmm.

[Aquagraph]

I'm way too pedantic to say what lungs parallelled about the reality of gravity and that of socionics but I thought it was very cool.

Sometimes I miss my non-pedantic side.

[Ningyo]

I know a few conflict relationships as well, and have had multiple LSEs in authority over me, which led me to sort of believe this:

Conflict can be nice for a time, if both people keenly feel "deficient" in areas that force them to use Role/PoLR and also acknowledge the validity of demands on those areas. For example, an IEI who lacks confidence when it comes to managing the details of Si/Te tasks and an LSE female who feels guilty about having the reputation of an "insensitive bitch." Once the two get to know each other through working together, they might begin to pick up the other's slack and even see potential in each other via their own demonstrative function picking up on the activity of the other's DS function. It's like supervision that goes both ways: striving to be supportive and "mold" the other in their areas of deficiency while not giving them due credit for their natural strengths due to not valuing their strengths specifically.

If you have two conflictors who are confident in their role functions, however, then you have two individuals who run the risk of just constantly questioning each other and getting on each other's nerves rather than doing what they're best at and letting the other do the messy stuff for and without them. They might even begin to view use of the other's creative function as pointless waste of energy, since it's their role function and can be associated with slacking, basically. The LSE might start demanding, "Why are you trying to cheer me up when you should be working?" and the IEI might start saying, "Why are you wasting so much time on trivial details when you could be taking care of first things first?"

Similar interests seem to be a BIG factor in whether or not the relationship is really cohesive. Not even similar goals, really, just similar interests that will keep them feeling connected on a regular basis. My IEE friend has been dating an LSI for about six years and they've been living together for about a year, and it's been really good for her. It's not perfect, but she loves that he can help her relax while bringing her down to earth, make her laugh when she needs it and continuously show her new things related to their similar interests in film, culture, most medias and science. This is her first healthy relationship after dating a manipulative ILI and an ILE who sounded both very original and self-involved.

[Ver]

IMy IEE friend has been dating an LSI for about six years and they've been living together for about a year, and it's been really good for her. It's not perfect, but she loves that he can help her relax while bringing her down to earth, make her laugh when she needs it and continuously show her new things related to their similar interests in film, culture, most medias and science. This is her first healthy relationship after dating a manipulative ILI and an ILE who sounded both very original and self-involved.

Are you completely sure they are conflictors? COuld you describe their relationship? It's the first time I've heard of conflict relationship being at least ok and I have to admit it made me feel both curious, interested, filled with hope as well as suspicious.

[willekeurig]

I knew a Se-SLE & Fi-EII conflictor couple (family friends with whom we used to sail together). They stayed together for at least 23 years (as their oldest son is 23), but got divorced this year. The relationship always seemed horrible to me. I guess they were/are both quite unhealthy, the EII in a shyly helpless way, and the SLE in an "openly hating on everything and everyone"-way. Even my beta parents constantly criticised the SLE for his attitude/behaviour towards other people, especially his wife. He was always real nice to his daughter and me and my siblings, but their son (I think he's some Te dom) with whom I spent most of my summers, got blamed all the time, often even for things I had done/we had done together. My dad told me that the only thing the SLE ever said about the break-up was "I doubt this came as surprise to anyone". The EII, heard, was kind of sad about the family getting broken, but at the same time real happy it was all officially over.

[Ningyo]

Sure! Both come from very different backgrounds, and it began very casually for them. They live in San Diego and both have been following the music scene there for at least the past eight to ten years (the IEE is 28 now, the LSI 30), so in the beginning they would often see shows together. The IEE had just recently distanced herself from a group of friends that had been fighting for a few years and I think she must've really wanted a drama-free relationship at the time. The LSI has always been very obliging and done little things for her, like house-sitting whenever she's away and leaving gifts around the house. He has no qualms about managing her things for her when she's on vacation and basically handling some of the messy things she'd rather not, like talking to the neighbors when they complain about smoke coming from her balcony or selecting and picking up meds for her cat. He manages to get them free badges and tickets into most local events, even things like Coachella, which I think she finds rather awesome. The two of them are almost always pursuing their interests together--even when I visited them recently, they had plans for what they were going to do as soon as they had dropped me off at the airport (she likes picking through stuff at various discount stores like Salvation Army, he likes looking for things he can triple his investment on by selling on eBay).

The "conflicts" usually occur in an exaggerated manner and all at once with them. There will be months of smooth sailing followed by one crazy event, though they're both fairly diplomatic people and able to smooth the rough edges of any major conflict. An example: on a recent trip to Spain, the LSI got wasted on absinthe and they got into sort of a debate about what true love is, which ended in him yelling and throwing furniture to scare her. He tossed a few bar stools over the roof of their hotel and later that night attacked a member of the hotel staff. In the end, the hotel charged them ~$2000 for damages, which her parents paid and the LSI is reimbursing them in payments.

There are certain habits both have which get under the other's skin, but none of it seems to be particularly serious. For instance, the IEE has complained about the LSI never outright stating what he wants and expecting her to guess. I think both of them view the other as less responsible than themselves as well, but a lot of that seems to have to do with the T/F dichotomy in their case. Also, when the two of them together yet surrounded by people for more than a day or two, they tend to do a lot of bickering in secret. The LSI is very introverted, doesn't really like many of the IEE's friends and usually wants to go home and work long before they can get away, and the IEE understands his feelings but usually is reluctant to be detached so soon.

Not sure if this interests you, but he's an E2 and she's an E3.


Eta: They made this video together. This is the sort of stuff they do for fun.

http://www.crashthesuperbowl.com/#/gallery/?video=17947

[Absurd]

Hah, the ones I knew ended in divorce actually. Funny. Socionics be praised, non-socionics relationship between two people be praised, Allah be praised.

[Eliza Thomason]

So... now I know three of them. All fell apart after 15/20/25 years respectively. But I wanted to say that it's not impossible for it to "work" for awhile, if your expectations aren't very high.

What basically happens is that as long as your external values align, you can focus on mutual goals. This keeps you occupied for a long time, especially if there are children in the picture and if one of you works and/or travels a lot. That takes the pressure off of dealing with each other all the time. But also, you don't ever feel "close" to one another. If this is an acceptable situation, it can be managed. The problem comes when you realize one day that "hey, I actually want to feel close to my partner. This isn't right." so then you do the sensible thing and "seek counseling". Hmmmm... problem is, when you're conflict relations, counseling makes things worse. Here's why--counseling usually is designed to bring out the truth, to encourage both parties to be more themselves, to face up to what's wrong. And when you're in a conflict relationship, there's a lot going wrong under the surface. These things can be ignored for a long time but once you're in counseling, it's over. The more you try to work on things, the more you end up pushing each other away and understanding that you're not meshing much... at all.

If you're in a conflict relationship and you really want it to last, my advice is to have low expectations for what the relationship can provide, don't look too closely at anything negative, focus on external shared goals and your own individual goals, make sure you each have other friends who are meeting your needs for understanding and accept the situation for what it is. Also, if you're an idealist, forget it. Don't waste time trying to force things to be what you want them to be, because they aren't and never will be.

The end.

p.s. those who left their conflict marriage were much happier afterwards. there is much relief if you can let go of that part of you that identifies with the pain of being in a difficult relationship.

This, and the whole thread is interesting. My closest friend is my sis-in-law.. my ex's brother's wife, and she is EII and he SLE (so its intersting what @octo said). When I read about conflictor relationships I immediately knew he was SLE since it so described their relationship. And I know him well enough to confirm that's what he is. He even told me once, complaining aobut her during one of his annual blow-ups, that he was going to divorce her in ten years. (They have kids). EII and I laugh about it now, like "Okay, eight more years"... Because you have to laugh, because its so hard. Their kids love having Mom and Dad in the same house and they are both committed to the best for them. They make a nice home together. And the reality of divorce is you lose more than half your income each, and also shared custody has a lot wrong with it. EII is very focused on her kids, and having access to them all the time is a top priority for her (vs. what happened to me; suddenly I was cut off from my child big chunks of time, and that is something she does NOT want, having seen the reality of that in my life). But she is a realist, not an idealist; she knows what she is in and it is all about coping, and time apart is valued. She knows what they do well together, (holidays, vacations, having guests over) and what to avoid (about everything else!). I also think she can relate to everything here written in this thread.

So realist that she is, she is using her time to working steadily towards her college degree in a field she can get work in for that day...

[Eliza Thomason]

Also your conflictor and dual look very similar, three dichotomies the same. And if you've never experienced a good relationship, you can start to think that certain things are normal since you have nothing to compare it with...

Some pairs imo are more prone to staying in conflictor relationships e.g. Fi-PoLR SLE and martyr EII.

I would be interested in hearing more about why you said that for that pairing (since that's the pair I know well)...

[Eliza Thomason]

I just have to tell this Conflictor drama that happened today.

My good friend, EII, is in a Conflictor marriage with SLE, who is inconsiderate to the extreme. Lying is his way of life; his nickname since young days is "Silk". As in "smooth as..."

They all went to pick out back-splash tile for the kitchen - the final finish on the kitchen redo that was, except for this, completed a year ago. SLE had kept bringing home tile that looked like variations of rough cement outdoor tile, which looked odd in their kitchen of satin finishes and they all hated it, so now the were going to make a final choice they all could agree upon..

They - EII, SLE, and their 2 kids - spent nearly three house together in the tile store choosing and voting on a background tile and a fancy stripe. They took their time examined many tiles, making sure all had a say, and decided the final choice would have to be okay'd by three of the four, plus, they would not pick anything anyone hated. They all agreed on the youngest's idea for stripe, and spent most of their time debating and agreeing upon the background tile. All were happy with choice! Or so it seemed.

SLE is used to doing whatever he wants though. And he had his own ideas apparently. EII came home from college midday and SLE and buddy were finishing installing a different background tile than they had spent time as a family picking out. It looked sort of like rough cement outdoor patio tile, in fact. "What is this?? This isn't the right tile!" said IEE. SLE: "Huh. Must have given us the wrong tile". She yelled, tried to explain it was impossible, also that she hated it, etc.; he stayed silky calm in front of his buddy. And they did not stop working. Like she wasn't even there.

She called me, sick, sick, sick about this. I know her story, and this really stinks. Tile. Pretty permanent. And she hates it. I could only say, "I am really, really sorry". She called her other friend, who felt bad too, and said the same thing.

Then she called me an hour ago. SLE had gone out. She had picked at a tile and was surprised it came off easily. She started pulling it all off! I came over and helped her finish the job and take the $400 worth of heavy tile to the garbage...

Omigosh.

[InvisibleJim]

Advise your friend not get into relationships with untrustworthy individuals.

To quote myself on a hundred occasions: Not happy? Choose better.

[FoxOnStilts]

Lying and being inconsiderate are not type related.

[GuavaDrunk]

The conflict as described doesn't sound type-related.
They seem to both go behind each other's backs. Possibly understandably, but nonetheless.

[ashlesha]

it was shitty of him and i would have been angry too but yelling about hating it while his friend was there helping was maybe not the best way to handle it. he stayed "silky smooth" in front of his friend? what else was he supposed to do?

edit: i'm lazy and i had stopped there. the going behind his back afterwards that other people mentioned i find more easy to condone. at least it was productive, lol.

[Eliza Thomason]

Yes, lying is not type related***. I did not mean to imply that. He is from a very dysfunctional family. I know - he's my ex's brother! Many different types in this large family of sibs but a consistent "I will do my own thing", and inconsiderateness, and an entitlement to all that. They have 2 kids and she does all the putting up with in order to maintain peace to keep the family together as long as possible for the sake of the kids, plus, day in and and day out serves the family, and he does what he wants, when he wants and you can't tell him anything. However, sometimes, its just beyond what she can take, and this was one of those times. I was shocked, however, I feel he deserves it...

True, @GuavaDrunk, she went behind his back - and he went behind her back first. Not the first time she gives him back just what he gives her. I, on the other hand, with his brother, would return rudeness and selfishness with kindness and accommodation, and believe me, it won me NO respect. I suspect I helped make him his worst-self with that. She has a different tact, which I can hardly judge, since mine didn't work. "You get what you give" she has told him. Generally, she lets things slide to keep peace, however, she has her limits, and he just hit one.

I just hope she is going to be okay when he gets home. I suggested she lock her bedroom door...

***I should say, my son is SLE. He does not lie. If he ever did lie to me, I know it would press on his conscience because its a habit to be honest. Which I have always encouraged, by allowing him privacy and space, by rewarding honesty (he's always been able to avoid consequences by coming clean) and of course our Catholicism has helped with that.

[Eliza Thomason]

it was shitty of him and i would have been angry too but yelling about hating it while his friend was there helping was maybe not the best way to handle it. he stayed "silky smooth" in front of his friend? what else was he supposed to do?

He is a hired hand/"friend" and she has been quite unhappy with this guy's other kitchen work and his ways in her house, however, she has no say in who SLE has in the house... And this guy just kept on putting tile up while she hollered about it being the wrong tile. (Hollering represented her losing it at SLE's deception. She was not happy). To me, that's natural consequences for his actions. Also, normally, a hired hand should say, "Excuse me, I will step away while you two work this out", but he kept right there in the middle working like nothing, which was insult to injury...

Also, since like a true narcisist he is far more concerned about what any stranger would think than anyone in his family*, and, having no witnesses makes him his worst, confrontations with witnesses has been the most effective/safe with him.

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* Narcissists live for "Supply". Notice and approval of strangers including any complete random stranger is Primary Narcissist Supply; family is Secondary Narcissist Supply.