Te/Fi and Ti/Fe and socionics relations

[strangeling]

I was thinking about how socionics constructs the relationships between the functions and I wanted to try and explain why it might be a false dichotomy in some ways to suggest certain relations, mostly just to hear what people have to say about it. I'm not sure how much anyone will agree or if anyone will even understand what I'm saying, but here goes:

So the first idea is that Ti is contradictory to Fi and Fi contradictory to Ti.
But from what I understand about Fi is that it deals with more than the emotions of itself; in a way, it is about taking in the emotions of others, so that they become a part of the Fi user, and then mixing them together to create a mutual emotion or feeling that is both a part of the Fi user and a part of another. It is collective, it melds with others and requires a dynamic type of thinking (Te) to allow this to occur. I know socionics relates it to relationships and what people like, but I think that misses this bigger picture. (?)
But, so then, Ti would have to be the opposite of that; it would have nothing to do with considering the emotional impacts on others or even the self, but instead separate itself from all others and calculate, as if simultaneously inculcating competition, for the sake of what prizes (Fe) come to the winner; this dynamically extemporaneous type of feeling (Fe) is produced from the empowering affect of success that is found or ultimately desired. (?)

The things that I don't like about the above is that neither one necessarily has any more to do with logic or relationships in the overall scheme of their concept. Even worse from this, since Fi can take in the emotions of a Ti user, it can attach itself to them, whereas the Ti user has no basic underlining draw to the Fi user, except as a tool for winning some form of competition for the Ti user. But taking this even farther, since Si relates strictly to the impressions that people find and form, Ni goes past impression and tries to see a deeper meaning of how impressions relate to one another; it is also, arguably, the most collective irrational function because of this. But then take a type that values both Fi and Ni, and now you have someone who can form a relationship with anyone because they are both capable of melding their psyche into that other and seeing how they relate to them, intuitively, on a collective level; such types are probably the least judgmental because they see all reason why judgment is flawed. And I know this is a common thing that is often said about NF types (mostly read in MBTI forums), that they are capable of this and it shows in many ways in the way they form relationships and engage people to reconsider how they are thinking and understanding the theory. (?)

thoughts?

[Saberstorm]

Oh, you are new. The term used in Socionics for things like Fi, Ni and so on, is Information Element. The IE describe the information that you are capable of precieving with varible levels of clairity and acceptance. They are not "abilities" like they are in Meyers Briggs. The term "functions" refer to the use of the ID, EGO, SUPER EGO and SUPER ID.

Secondly, you have a ring of strength - this is your EGO and ID functions together. So if you have an Ni/Fe ego, you have a strong Fi/Ne located in the ID. The ID functions to help you observe and demonstrate your abilities. Thus, all people use both forms of N, S, T, and F, in socionics. The personality is about how these IE emerge in different combinations.

So basically, you are saying that an ESFp (whose ego is Se&Fi) talks to his conflictor, and INTj (whose ego is Ti&Ne) and that Socionics predicts that they will do what together? Basically, it means that they will have difficulty communicating. They will not connect.

However, they connect, but akwardly, using ID and SUPEREGO functions which means that they find each other either annoying, boring or a distraction. In terms of persuasion the feeler would be likely to win...

[Leader]

...Least Judgemental?

Fi are just personal -opinions- attached to these emotions about either these people or things. Taking in the emotions of others (and through what...the senses of course) and then mixing them together to create a mutual emotion or feeling that is both part of the Fi user and the other? How? Is the other person going to have the same feelings, or opinions as the Fi user. No. These emotions are entirely subjective to the Fi user, even if they take in the Fe of the other, whatever feelings they form will still be of the Fi users. I would say its the most irrational and most judgemental function. Fi Users may be sympathetic, but they aren't any more empathetic than other types.

[JWC3]

...Least Judgemental?

Fi are just personal -opinions- attached to these emotions about either these people or things. Taking in the emotions of others (and through what...the senses of course) and then mixing them together to create a mutual emotion or feeling that is both part of the Fi user and the other? How? Is the other person going to have the same feelings, or opinions as the Fi user. No. These emotions are entirely subjective to the Fi user, even if they take in the Fe of the other, whatever feelings they form will still be of the Fi users. I would say its the most irrational and most judgemental function. Fi Users may be sympathetic, but they aren't any more empathetic than other types.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that being good at Fi means you don't understand Fe at all... Wait... My mistake, that's actually the opposite of the truth. Sorry everyone.

[Beautiful sky]

I don't think they are contradictory to one another; it's whichever is predominant in the individual.

[JWC3]

I was thinking about how socionics constructs the relationships between the functions and I wanted to try and explain why it might be a false dichotomy in some ways to suggest certain relations, mostly just to hear what people have to say about it. I'm not sure how much anyone will agree or if anyone will even understand what I'm saying, but here goes:

So the first idea is that Ti is contradictory to Fi and Fi contradictory to Ti.
But from what I understand about Fi is that it deals with more than the emotions of itself; in a way, it is about taking in the emotions of others, so that they become a part of the Fi user, and then mixing them together to create a mutual emotion or feeling that is both a part of the Fi user and a part of another. It is collective, it melds with others and requires a dynamic type of thinking (Te) to allow this to occur. I know socionics relates it to relationships and what people like, but I think that misses this bigger picture. (?)
But, so then, Ti would have to be the opposite of that; it would have nothing to do with considering the emotional impacts on others or even the self, but instead separate itself from all others and calculate, as if simultaneously inculcating competition, for the sake of what prizes (Fe) come to the winner; this dynamically extemporaneous type of feeling (Fe) is produced from the empowering affect of success that is found or ultimately desired. (?)

The things that I don't like about the above is that neither one necessarily has any more to do with logic or relationships in the overall scheme of their concept. Even worse from this, since Fi can take in the emotions of a Ti user, it can attach itself to them, whereas the Ti user has no basic underlining draw to the Fi user, except as a tool for winning some form of competition for the Ti user. But taking this even farther, since Si relates strictly to the impressions that people find and form, Ni goes past impression and tries to see a deeper meaning of how impressions relate to one another; it is also, arguably, the most collective irrational function because of this. But then take a type that values both Fi and Ni, and now you have someone who can form a relationship with anyone because they are both capable of melding their psyche into that other and seeing how they relate to them, intuitively, on a collective level; such types are probably the least judgmental because they see all reason why judgment is flawed. And I know this is a common thing that is often said about NF types (mostly read in MBTI forums), that they are capable of this and it shows in many ways in the way they form relationships and engage people to reconsider how they are thinking and understanding the theory. (?)

thoughts?

I actually think about socionics like this. I see the theory as a sort of collection of contradictions where certain IM elements are at odds with others. I don't view Ti and Fi as that contradictory in and of themselves but they do exist in opposite quadras so you have that going for you. In order to clearly define the divides between quadras I like to compare extroverted IM elements to their introverted counterpart. Though I think it's fairly accepted that Se and Ne are in opposition. I suppose you could say Fe and Te oppose each other as well but in general I think such a comparison is less common.

[Leader]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that being good at Fi means you don't understand Fe at all... Wait... My mistake, that's actually the opposite of the truth. Sorry everyone.

Yeah, Im pretty sure that being a dumbass like JWC3 means that you'd somehow think Agee really gave a fuck about all that bullshit you're spewing from your mouth... Wait... My mistake, that's actually the opposite of the truth. Sorry everyone.

[JWC3]

Yeah, Im pretty sure that being a dumbass like JWC3 means that you'd somehow think Agee really gave a fuck about all that bullshit you're spewing from your mouth... Wait... My mistake, that's actually the opposite of the truth. Sorry everyone.

Get over here and just put it in my mouth big boy, let's do this and because of just how hot you are right now I'm going to do you a favor and swallow. You're welcome.

[Leader]

Its too big for you, it can't fit.

[JWC3]

Its too big for you, it can't fit.

If I had a nickle...

[Leader]

Don't worry, if you're still feeling a little thirsty I can always shoot from afar.

[JWC3]

Don't worry, if you're still feeling a little thirsty I can always shoot from afar.

Hit me baby.

[ashlesha]

anyway.

this is too far removed from anything i understand about socionics for me to really have anything to directly comment about.

i'll just say i find aspects helpful and if you put any stock in those, Fi is internal statics of fields and Ti is external dynamics of fields. so in comparing the two, they do similar things but Fi deals with implicit things and Ti deals with explicit things. there's nothing stopping Ti from dealing with emotion imo. i started getting lost at the Fe = prize part. your post looks to deal with associations you make with the elements that i don't so i doubt this will be useful to you. but its not about penis wars so hey.

[JWC3]

anyway.

this is too far removed from anything i understand about socionics for me to really have anything to directly comment about.

i'll just say i find aspects helpful and if you put any stock in those, Fi is internal statics of fields and Ti is external dynamics of fields. so in comparing the two, they do similar things but Fi deals with implicit things and Ti deals with explicit things. there's nothing stopping Ti from dealing with emotion imo. i started getting lost at the Fe = prize part. your post looks to deal with associations you make with the elements that i don't so i doubt this will be useful to you. but its not about penis wars so hey.

MINE IS BIGGER! RAWR!

No but seriously I was just having a discussion about this, I don't think Fi necessarily has to deal exclusively with emotion either, in the same way that Ti can deal with emotion.

[Beautiful sky]

Ti-thinks and hence puts thoughts ahead of emotions
Fi-puts emotions ahead of thoughts

both base types can switch and use the other, but only temporarily and when doing so will appear like the other. I can shut down my Fi to analyze a writing, like I am doing now; but, my revert function is Fi, that is how I typically am, hence I feel my way around the world.

[JWC3]

Ti-thinks and hence puts thoughts ahead of emotions
Fi-puts emotions ahead of thoughts

both base types can switch and use the other, but only temporarily and when doing so will appear like the other. I can shut down my Fi to analyze a writing, like I am doing now; but, my revert function is Fi, that is how I typically am, hence I feel my way around the world.

Yeah but like what about emotion founded on thought? Or thought grounded in emotion?

[strangeling]

i'll just say i find aspects helpful and if you put any stock in those, Fi is internal statics of fields and Ti is external dynamics of fields. so in comparing the two, they do similar things but Fi deals with implicit things and Ti deals with explicit things.

Interesting. But if that's true, that's very broad. Is this enough to theoretically base and predict relationships upon?

there's nothing stopping Ti from dealing with emotion imo.

Okay, but then the question to me is "In what way do they deal with emotion? Or in how do they deal with it differently? And how is each motivated?" I'd be willing to say that any theory on relationships needs to have a theory on individual motivation before it can postulate any conclusions; if anyone disagrees, then what is a more arguably better way to base relationships upon?

Ti-thinks and hence puts thoughts ahead of emotions
Fi-puts emotions ahead of thoughts

both base types can switch and use the other, but only temporarily and when doing so will appear like the other. I can shut down my Fi to analyze a writing, like I am doing now; but, my revert function is Fi, that is how I typically am, hence I feel my way around the world.

But you haven't really even attempted to explain the basis for your conclusions. How did you so easily decide that thoughts and emotions are separate? How is an emotion not part of a thought? And how can a thought be separated from emotion?

Yeah but like what about emotion founded on thought? Or thought grounded in emotion?

Chicken or the egg though. It doesn't mean we can't separate the two in various ways and still find something profound in doing so; but it does mean our truth is going to be relative to some degree. And that's okay to me, since truth may very well be a relative matter anyway. But, because of this, I have to admit here, it does bug me a little when people argue such questions, because they aren't really presenting much of an argument, but simply presenting the paradoxical nature of reality as against all reason; however, reality exists in paradox and we must still deal with that; suggesting that the world is only due to unreason, hinders existential growth, and promotes sloth of mind. I think it's a useful point in showing where reason can fall short, but it doesn't inherently subvert all reason, rather it must exist with it as a dualism.

Are you okay with this?

[Beautiful sky]

why are you gathering all this info?

[strangeling]

why are you gathering all this info?

I just like to reflect a lot on the information that is already gathered. It's not so much a gathering of information as much as an attempt to hear different interpretations of things or to get other people to make better theoretical suggestions/ideas. As Gilly might say, "I can't stop".

[Pookie]

Ni goes past impression and tries to see a deeper meaning of how impressions relate to one another; it is also, arguably, the most collective irrational function because of this. But then take a type that values both Fi and Ni, and now you have someone who can form a relationship with anyone because they are both capable of melding their psyche into that other and seeing how they relate to them, intuitively, on a collective level; such types are probably the least judgmental because they see all reason why judgment is flawed.

And that's why IEI's are awesome. Ni as a conscious base function, and Fi as an unconscious demonstrative function. And because Fi is in the demonstrative slot, it doesn't come with all the judgemental and negativeness that Fi egos are known for.

[Pookie]

I'm on the side where i believe that all facets that can be broken down in dichotomy, are essentially intertwined. I can't really explain my rationale for this, because it just seems absolutely inarguable that they could be separate. So i will take a liberty and sum it up as "the dichotomy is a construct for our understanding. It's the map but not the territory."

Fe/Ti and Fi/Te are just different sides of the spectrum. Te puts alot of importance on the facts of the matter, and Ti on using "logic" to tinker and examine an idea. Fe has an emphasis in seeing past the facts, and assessing what information is valuable to the situation and what is not. Fi, well i can't really attempt to explain it thoughtfully. I'll suck it up and say there's a tinkering and examining of an idea in context of what "should" "should not" or "right/wrong".

Now i do believe that the Fe/Te and Fi/Ti function will conflict with each other in essence. Example - I bet heavily on mixed martial arts events and i do well with my Fe. I feel that alot of Facts are thrown out there like "The guy's on a 2 fight losing streak" or "he hasn't won by tko in 3 years" that are useless to a particular fight. So i sift through what i find valuable to the context of that fight with my Fe. And i tend to base whats valuable upon my Ni, what patterns i've learned to pick up on - and when certain patterns mean more than others. To explain my rationale alot of times would take an insane amount of typing, and i would have little empirical facts to back my point upon. So because of this, Te users won't necassarily benefit from my tokens of insight. And Vice versa. If someone listed off a bunch of facts about a fight, i might automatically discard 3/4's of what they advise, because to me it holds little value in comparison to what i've seen and come to understand.