Introverted intuition Ni PoLR in ESEs-ESFjs

[xiuxiu]

I will never wear a seatbelt.

Buckle up, son. It's the law.

[Creepy-bg]

I was in a rollover accident in my teens where I literally would be dead now if I had been wearing a seatbelt... weird huh?

(I still think they're a good idea though, although I really only think to put them on when I'm with one of my friends who are really bad drivers. It's the only way to calm the bloody premonitions of accidents and death that come to me when they're driving(even still I white nuckle the whole time the car is running))

[Joy]

I know people who were in accidents where they'd be dead if the had been wearing seatbelts... but odds are you're more likely to be safe in an accident if you're wearing it than not wearing it.

[Slacker]

Yeah I think seatbelts are about playing the odds, as are most things related to safety. For instance, with infant car seats, the reason they're rear-facing is because most accidents are from hitting something in front. But babies would be safer facing front if the car gets rear-ended. The infants sit backward because in most accidents that's the position where they're safest in most circumstances, not because they're safest in every single crash facing backwards. It's all odds.

[xiuxiu]

I know people who were in accidents where they'd be dead if the had been wearing seatbelts...

no you don't

[Joy]

You're right. I made the whole thing up to look cool. I thought people would like me if I told them that I have met people who have fall in the percentage of the population who defied statistics in an accident at some point. And now my plan has been foiled, due to your amazing powers of perception.

[aestrivex]

You're right. I made the whole thing up to look cool. I thought people would like me if I told them that I have met people who have fall in the percentage of the population who defied statistics in an accident at some point. And now my plan has been foiled, due to your amazing powers of perception.

could you describe such a situation, then?

[Joy]

The one I remember some of the details of involved my first boyfriend's family. Before he was born they got by a drunk driver on Christmas Eve. His twelve year old brother died and his sister would have as well if she'd worn her seatbelt. She was sitting in the middle of the back seat, and the back part of the car was crushed. I didn't probe for a more detailed explanation about what specifically would have happened to her had she been buckled in, but she has refused to wear a seatbelt since then because of it... even though she knows that a seat belt is more likely to keep her safe than cause her harm.

Another one was a friend of my moms, but I don't know any of the details of that accident. One of my regulars when I was bartending said the same, but I don't know if he was telling the truth or just talking out his ass.

[discojoe]

I know people who were in accidents where they'd be dead if the had been wearing seatbelts...

no you don't

Okay...

[Gilly]

I was in a rollover accident in my teens where I literally would be dead now if I had been wearing a seatbelt... weird huh?

Ditto. Not a rollover, though; side impact. I got thrown to the opposite side of the car, and the door on my side caved in at a point about 2 feet into where I had been sitting.

[xiuxiu]

I know people who were in accidents where they'd be dead if the had been wearing seatbelts...

no you don't

Okay...

hey guys, [personal anecdote here]

even if that timeless yarn could be believed i'd be hard pressed to see it as justification for not wearing a seatbelt

[Joy]

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I believe it is wise to wear a seat belt.

[xiuxiu]

except you are painfully superficial in your belief. you simply abide by the law because there's a hefty fine for doing otherwise

[Joy]

incorrect

[Joy]

Perhaps you missed this?

My ESFj sister has gotten into the habit of not wearing a seatbelt. I think it's unwise, so I've started to nag her about it. Perhaps she finds it uncomfortable (Si) or bothersome, but acknowledging the long-term odds is something she definitely doesn't want to think about.

Funny you should mention that. The ESTj I was with and I would argue about this. I told him that he should wear a seatbelt because he had a family now and it was irresponsible not to. He'd get irritated and say, "I'm not going to get into an accident." I'd say, "How do you know?" and he'd get even more irritated and say, "I'm not wearing a seatbelt. I'm not going to get into an accident. Just stop." Then I'd say, "There are a lot of really bad drivers on the road. You can't control what they'll do. Even a perfect driver could still get into an accident. There's no way you can know that you won't get into an accident." Then he'd get even more pissed off, and once again tell me he wouldn't get into an accident. Then I'd say, "I didn't know that people who get into accidents knew it would happen beforehand," and we'd get into a huge fight. He'd start in about things I did that seemed irresponsible to him and we'd go back and forth.

[xiuxiu]

Perhaps you missed this?

My ESFj sister has gotten into the habit of not wearing a seatbelt. I think it's unwise, so I've started to nag her about it. Perhaps she finds it uncomfortable (Si) or bothersome, but acknowledging the long-term odds is something she definitely doesn't want to think about.

pitch for motivational traffic school video

know how i know you're lying? estjs wouldn't be caught dead without their seatbelts and what's more they would pass laws requiring in-vehicle helmets if they didn't think it would be met with rioutous laughter. also, the argument has been dead for going on 20 years and anyone who even *hints* at a percentage of lucky non-seatbelt wearing survivors has much more to say.

[Exodus]

Yes, you are probably right about ESTjs. If really a example of Ni PoLR, it's more specific to ESFjs.

[xiuxiu]

esfjs are more emotional about their polr, but it's situated in the same place for both types. manifestly it just takes on different forms. it's still the same 'issue'.

[Joy]

xiuxiu, you have no idea what you're talking about. There is absolutely no way for you to know if I'm "lying". And do you actually think that a Ni PoLR manifests itself the same way in every ESxj? I have a hard time believing that you seriously believe that.

But you're right that all of these accidents happened a long time ago. That thought did cross my mind. The first happened like 30 years ago, and I don't know about the others, but it has been a while.

[Khamelion]

I will never wear a seatbelt.

all i have to say is...



natural selection. im fine with it. go about your business.

[UDP]

It's all set up for a policeman to save FDG one day, after someone crashing into him unexpectedly. Because FDG was not wearing his belt, he was a fatal situation, but because the Policeman was there in time, FDG lives. The doctor tells him that if it weren't for the policeman getting there when he did, FDG may have lost use of his legs forever.

[Gilly]

I'll offer this one as well: I know a kid who was thrown out of a windshield and killed in a frontal impact because he didn't wear a seatbelt.

I know I wouldn't want my brains all over a tree.

[FDG]

I will never wear a seatbelt.

Buckle up, son. It's the law.

I always put it on when I see the police nearby!

Seriously anyway, it's the same motivation as to why i rarely wear helmets when biking. It feels like a constriction.

UDP: lol! That would force me to re-evalutate my perception of policemen.

[Nowisthetime]

I'm trying to describe a behavior that I think could be Ni polr. The person is a co-worker / boss of mine. ESE, probably an unbalanced person. He is quite unpopular because of his behavior. We are working in gardening and construction.

He seems to lack the sense of the dynamics of the situation and people. Usually people figure out what to do if you just give them a few seconds, or with minimal guidance. He doesn't trust that the situation will take care of itself. He doesn't know the right amount or quality of the guidance that people need in order to be able to work independently but still together. It's either too much or too little.

He always gives straight orders "Pick it up", "Bring it here", "No, not here, here!". His orders can be about unimportant things and too detailed. He does this instead of waiting the few seconds that people need to figure out for themselves what to do. When he gives an order, you have to react immediately. If you wait 2 seconds he assumes that you don't get it, he then repeats the order. His orders sometimes comes very suddenly without the background information that you need. Then when you don't understand he gets frustrated, and probably thinks that he needs to give even more orders.

I feel very stupid in his presence, because he is always anticipating the next step without understanding that it has already begun. When I'm just about to start doing something, he will interrupt me and tell the same thing as an order. Instead of waiting and seeing that I'm actually doing it already.

Also, when he explains something he either doesn't do it at all, or he makes the explanation VERY explicit how everything is connected together, often repeating the same things over and over again.

The sad thing is that this behavior stresses people and can make them act as stupid as the ESE thinks they actually are.

I thought of all this as Ni polr because it seems to be related to dynamics. The intuition that the situation is "alive" and that it's going to develop without constant interruption. And also that people are adapting to the situation as it changes. The feeling for this my ESE co-worker seems to lack.

I also think Ni is closely related to successful co-operation in practical matters. Like building something together, fixing something etc. There's no schedule, just the constant intuition, second by second, where the situation is going, what the other person is doing or about to start doing, when your assistance is needed and when it's not.

I just want to say that I am not criticizing ESEs in general. Some of them are the most wonderful people I know. But usually unbalanced people get the most attention, as with any type.

[Beautiful sky]

Sounds like a control freek, no, that is not ESE; may be LSE; I have two ESE bosses and both are very relaxed and wonderful to work with.

[Aiss]

He seems to lack the sense of the dynamics of the situation and people. Usually people figure out what to do if you just give them a few seconds, or with minimal guidance. He doesn't trust that the situation will take care of itself. He doesn't know the right amount or quality of the guidance that people need in order to be able to work independently but still together. It's either too much or too little.

He always gives straight orders "Pick it up", "Bring it here", "No, not here, here!". His orders can be about unimportant things and too detailed. He does this instead of waiting the few seconds that people need to figure out for themselves what to do. When he gives an order, you have to react immediately. If you wait 2 seconds he assumes that you don't get it, he then repeats the order. His orders sometimes comes very suddenly without the background information that you need. Then when you don't understand he gets frustrated, and probably thinks that he needs to give even more orders.

I feel very stupid in his presence, because he is always anticipating the next step without understanding that it has already begun. When I'm just about to start doing something, he will interrupt me and tell the same thing as an order. Instead of waiting and seeing that I'm actually doing it already.

Also, when he explains something he either doesn't do it at all, or he makes the explanation VERY explicit how everything is connected together, often repeating the same things over and over again.

I hesitated to reply earlier because I only have experience with ESEs in personal relations, not in work environment, but some characteristics you mention are indeed present in the one ESE who bosses me around, that is, my mother. She'll always tell me to do something I already did or that I'm doing at the moment. Often she'll notice I'm doing something and instead of ignoring or remarking on it tell me to do it as if it was her idea and I was being difficult, refusing to do it or something, which I imagine is probably a way of giving approval, except it comes off as being bossy and not realizing what's going on. Oh, and always explaining things as if the other person was stupid. /rant over

To be honest, I can't tell if this is related to Ni-PoLR or not (except detailed explanations, which are). Does happen to ESEs, though.

[Blaze]

i agree that what you describe is Ni polr, but i disagree that the type of the individual involved is ESE. more likely LSE, trying to push people towards efficiency.

i liked what you said about waiting a little bit though and how that relates to time and Ni. right on the money.

[marooned]

I think this example is well described. I used to work with an ESE who exhibited these kinds of behaviors only she didn't think that everyone else was stupid (and although she infuriated a lot of people, I doubt she made anyone feel stupid). I think her behaviors were driven by emotional urgency and her values of needing to appear/be always helpful which had to be imposed on others because if they didn't react immediately with emotional urgency then clearly they didn't value being overly helpful. Anyway she often seemed to think action needed be taken immediately and had huge issues with time management (some things might be delayed indefinitely on the other hand that needed to be done much sooner). She would sometimes get on people's cases for not reacting and acting immediately on something, not noticing that either actions were already being taken (or first steps were happening), or without noticing that action didn't need to be taken immediately (and might even be better taken at later times). Even the smallest things were treated emotionally as a matter of life and death.

That said, reading the post, I could consider this possible of ESE, LSE, and Se ego types (I think Se ego types could come off this way especially to Si leading, possibly). I do think this kind of problem with spacing things in time where everything is perceived as needing to be done at once with blindness to processes already going seems like Ni PoLR though and possibly also weak Te.

Edit: my problem with this is that I think if my SLI co-worker were to read the OP, she would think it sounds exactly like my ESI supervisor. I'm actually starting to think that Gamma SF might be strongly worth considering, as I think Gamma SFs can act this way when they're not feeling confident that things are getting done. The more I think about this, the more I'm wondering if this really relates more to weak, valued Te. Anyway my ESI supervisor can definitely act this way when she's not confident that someone knows what they're doing. She then starts getting anxious and badgering people (in terms of time, she doesn't have a dynamic view of it and if things aren't being done quickly enough she becomes anxious feeling that the time to act on it is well over due and worried that it's not going to get done now and unforseen things could happen delaying it further, so her badgering behavior is her reaction to this, to move things along as they don't seem to be moving). At the point where she thinks that someone doesn't know what they're doing and isn't responding to her, she does start getting more aggressive and treating them like they're stupid. But since the person you describe apparently does this to everyone indiscriminately, maybe SEE is more likely than ESI. Now though that I think of it, I wouldn't rule out EIE, if it's done intentionally to make others feel stupid and getting a high off of this. (In any case as you said, this is obviously an unbalanced person.)

The level of badgering of this person is inconsistent with the ESE I mentioned who was not nearly that constant about it.

[Lobo]

i agree that what you describe is Ni polr, but i disagree that the type of the individual involved is ESE. more likely LSE, trying to push people towards efficiency.

i liked what you said about waiting a little bit though and how that relates to time and Ni. right on the money.

Yeah, to me an ESE would do the same, but instead would be all sweet about it: "put it here please ...now" a la miss piggy, hehe.

[Nowisthetime]

Thanks for the replies.

It's interesting that some of you think he might be LSE. I have to think about it. Another reason that made me consider ESE for him is that he has the habit of trying to evoke reactions in people, on a face level. When talking he will look you in the eyes and smile until you give a reaction or smile back. It can be quite draining. It consumes your energy. I've noticed that others dislike this too.

But his type doesn't really matter. My experience with him made me think about how Ni is used social interaction and I think I understand the function a little better now.

I don't know very much about how polr is dealt with. But I assume that balanced individuals have developed a way to cope with their polr in a smooth way.

From a more formal perspective I'm thinking that he is giving constant orders and being bossy in order to avoid polr hits. "Just wait and see" would activate Ni. So in that way his behavior doesn't have to be an indication of Se, just poorly managed Ni polr. Or what do you think?

It's funny. It's not until something is lacking that you actually start to understand how important it is. Like time intuition when working together.

Now I'm going to bed. Goodnight!

[Aiss]

In a way it could be more related to devalued Ni than weak Ni. Some LIIs can be pretty oblivious to processes already taking place unless someone points it out to them, instead talking of them as of rules, which is rather impractical when they try to apply them to real world. But there are far easier to adapt to it once they notice, and I've yet to see what was described in original post in them.

People mentioned a lot of things, including makng others feel stupid, sense of control etc. - yet what annoys me in this behaviour is exactly what it is, apparent stupidity at seemingly not realizing what's going on. This makes me think the problem itself is Ni-related, after all.

It's funny. It's not until something is lacking that you actually start to understand how important it is. Like time intuition when working together.

That's a very good point. It's only thanks to Ni-PoLRs that I understood better what Ni is. On my own it's too natural to separate.

[Blaze]

Thanks for the replies.

It's interesting that some of you think he might be LSE. I have to think about it. Another reason that made me consider ESE for him is that he has the habit of trying to evoke reactions in people, on a face level. When talking he will look you in the eyes and smile until you give a reaction or smile back. It can be quite draining. It consumes your energy. I've noticed that others dislike this too.

But his type doesn't really matter. My experience with him made me think about how Ni is used social interaction and I think I understand the function a little better now.

I don't know very much about how polr is dealt with. But I assume that balanced individuals have developed a way to cope with their polr in a smooth way.

From a more formal perspective I'm thinking that he is giving constant orders and being bossy in order to avoid polr hits. "Just wait and see" would activate Ni. So in that way his behavior doesn't have to be an indication of Se, just poorly managed Ni polr. Or what do you think?

It's funny. It's not until something is lacking that you actually start to understand how important it is. Like time intuition when working together.

Now I'm going to bed. Goodnight!

your relation with this individual sounds supervisory, as well. :wink: rather than mirror.

[marooned]

From a more formal perspective I'm thinking that he is giving constant orders and being bossy in order to avoid polr hits. "Just wait and see" would activate Ni. So in that way his behavior doesn't have to be an indication of Se, just poorly managed Ni polr. Or what do you think?

I probably still think ESE is likely. I was also thinking wrt my mentioning of Gamma SF, I think that kind of anxious freaking out happens with the ESI I mentioned when she notices that things actually aren't getting done. She usually doesn't fail to notice that processes are underway entirely. So maybe it wasn't really very close, especially if you think this person isn't really using Se.

your relation with this individual sounds supervisory, as well. :wink: rather than mirror.

It does kind of. If Nowisthetime is SEI, this could be a way in which SEI (Te PoLR) might react to LSE.

yet what annoys me in this behaviour is exactly what it is, apparent stupidity at seemingly not realizing what's going on. This makes me think the problem itself is Ni-related, after all.

That would annoy me too. But in general, I think, wouldn't Te be aware of external processes underway? I think Te should be good at that (though without Ni of course there would probably be control issues in terms of controlling the processes more in a way of micromanaging because there's no sense of how they're going to unfold over time and how much time is needed, supposedly).

[Nowisthetime]

ok, I understand, some of you think I'm being supervised. Yeah, I'm being supervised, but not in a socionics sense of the word.

Supervision from LSE feels totally different. It happens even though the LSE is nice and pleasant (especially then), and when we are interacting on a personal level (not work). And also, the LSE supervision feels sublime. I cannot really say what's wrong.

I haven't really gotten to know the ESE (and I don't think I will). It's just formal interaction related to work. I don't think Socionics relationship factors have had the time to start developing very much, so he could be my mirror.

In opposition, if one works with Ni Irrationals, they take the opposite approach, their indications are some sort of a riddle that you have to solve. They give you very little details and judge you as dumb or something if you are not up to their expectations. Even when it's obvious that you don't know what to do next, they're waiting a little bit for things to become obvious - basically you have to figure things out, on that depends your success completely.
I'm not generalizing, some Ni Irrationals are only partially like this, but this is the tendency.

Interesting observation.

[Aiss]

That would annoy me too. But in general, I think, wouldn't Te be aware of external processes underway? I think Te should be good at that (though without Ni of course there would probably be control issues in terms of controlling the processes more in a way of micromanaging because there's no sense of how they're going to unfold over time and how much time is needed, supposedly).

I'll resort to the internal/external static/dynamic object/field definitions for answer to that.

Te is external dynamics of objects, let's call it "how each object acts". Now "how objects interact with each other" is described by dynamics of fields, that is, Si and Ni. Te is always blocked with one of these, so it's hard to distinguish. Te would be assessing the value of each object's act in context of Si or Ni - either explicit, immediate consequences or implicit, long-term ones. In a way, I don't think Te itself is concerned with processes so much as with objects that affect them explicitly (hence manifestation as focus on efficiency, which might be different between blocks with Si and Ni, though).

So in this way TeSi would be concerned with explicit functionality of objects and their immediate effect, probably also with more of micromanaging ("Administrator", who focuses on getting things done as well as possible), while TeNi with their effect on long-term consequences, possibly neglecting immediate details ("Enterpriser", who looks beyond present difficulties).

[electric sheep]

I have a ISFp for a partner in my programming class. I thought the project was pretty easy, so we agreed to write the two halves of it separately and combine them at the end. The thing was due Saturday and Wednesday he finishes it. I start trying to put it together on Thursday, but it doesn't work. I handed it over to him to he could give it a try, but soon after he told me he was sick and that it was up to me. I was looking at his code on Friday and it was a piece of crap, so Saturday I just rewrote his half of the project and got it to work by the time it was due. I probably didn't have to rewrite his half, but I just didn't get it at first glance and I really didn't like the way he wrote it. Honestly I'm just proud of myself that I was able to do it. I didn't really tell him his code was shit, but I think he got the idea.

Working with him is kind of a pain in the ass because he's always feeling tired or shitty or something is going wrong so he can't work at the times we're able to. I'm not sure I trust him with the code now because I probably wont be able to understand it. I'd probably do a better job working on my own. I'm mulling the option of having him write some code just so he could say he did something, but me making my own substitution at the last minute. He's a really great guy and I don't want to make him feel bad, but at the same time I want to get a good grade on my project. My teacher is really picky and I don't think my partner gets that he can't write code like a noob anymore.

[Nowisthetime]

Electric sheep, are you relating this to my original post about my ESE co-worker? My point was that the ESE I'm talking about is a little unbalanced and his Ni polr shows exceptionally well in a negative way. I didn't intend to say anything about SEI-ESE co-operation in general, since all workers on the team are irritated by him. I'm not criticizing ESEs in general either.

But yes, It sounds like your SEI parter is not really interested in what he's doing. He should probably do something else where he can actually be productive.

I have a ISFp for a partner in my programming class. I thought the project was pretty easy, so we agreed to write the two halves of it separately and combine them at the end. The thing was due Saturday and Wednesday he finishes it. I start trying to put it together on Thursday, but it doesn't work. I handed it over to him to he could give it a try, but soon after he told me he was sick and that it was up to me. I was looking at his code on Friday and it was a piece of crap, so Saturday I just rewrote his half of the project and got it to work by the time it was due. I probably didn't have to rewrite his half, but I just didn't get it at first glance and I really didn't like the way he wrote it. Honestly I'm just proud of myself that I was able to do it. I didn't really tell him his code was shit, but I think he got the idea.

Working with him is kind of a pain in the ass because he's always feeling tired or shitty or something is going wrong so he can't work at the times we're able to. I'm not sure I trust him with the code now because I probably wont be able to understand it. I'd probably do a better job working on my own. I'm mulling the option of having him write some code just so he could say he did something, but me making my own substitution at the last minute. He's a really great guy and I don't want to make him feel bad, but at the same time I want to get a good grade on my project. My teacher is really picky and I don't think my partner gets that he can't write code like a noob anymore.

[electric sheep]

Nah, I think he cares. That's most of what's keeping me from being a total jerk.

[Creepy-male]

(I think Se ego types could come off this way especially to Si leading, possibly)

This.

[Exodus]

This.

Word.

He always gives straight orders "Pick it up", "Bring it here", "No, not here, here!". His orders can be about unimportant things and too detailed. He does this instead of waiting the few seconds that people need to figure out for themselves what to do. When he gives an order, you have to react immediately. If you wait 2 seconds he assumes that you don't get it, he then repeats the order. His orders sometimes comes very suddenly without the background information that you need. Then when you don't understand he gets frustrated, and probably thinks that he needs to give even more orders.

This all sounds like ego (ordering people around) and super-ego (failing to understand context).

I feel very stupid in his presence, because he is always anticipating the next step without understanding that it has already begun. When I'm just about to start doing something, he will interrupt me and tell the same thing as an order. Instead of waiting and seeing that I'm actually doing it already.

weak

Also, when he explains something he either doesn't do it at all, or he makes the explanation VERY explicit how everything is connected together, often repeating the same things over and over again.

yeah, ego types seem to do this a lot. Perhaps suggests ego also.

I thought of all this as Ni polr because it seems to be related to dynamics. The intuition that the situation is "alive" and that it's going to develop without constant interruption. And also that people are adapting to the situation as it changes.

you value

I also think Ni is closely related to successful co-operation in practical matters. Like building something together, fixing something etc. There's no schedule, just the constant intuition, second by second, where the situation is going, what the other person is doing or about to start doing, when your assistance is needed and when it's not.

lol this is too